Full Year 2020 HSBC Holdings PLC Fixed Income Analysts Earnings Call
Okay.
Oh.
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and thank you for standing by welcome to the Phase H S. P. C. Full Q 'twenty fixed income results conference call. At this time all participants are in a listen only mode there'll be some opening remarks, followed by a question on session at which time if you wish to ask a question you will need the press star one on your telephone and wait few of names to be announced.
I must advise you that this conference is being recorded today I would now like to on the conference of it you'll speak of today Ewen Stevenson. Please go ahead Sir.
And the good morning, or afternoon, OLED Ewen here the group Chief Financial Officer, I'm joined today by Ian Mckinnon, Our group Treasurer, and Greg case head of fixed income Investor Relations.
Given COVID-19, we're actually all on separate locations the so.
Please bear with us if we are to buy very gathered here in Q2 than I am.
There's a fixed income specific slide deck, that's available on our Investor Relations website.
We don't plan to speak to the slides in our introductory comments.
And we will try to keep my comments brief because I know a bunch of view of what I've already lessened the various things, including our equity call. This morning, you gauge on.
I'll quickly run through what we've announced today, then I'll hand over to Ian for more detail on capital on funding.
Before we open up the low Q&A.
Today as you're aware of we announced the full year 'twenty 'twenty results together with a business update.
With a refreshed strategy and some new financial targets, including a new dividend policy for.
For the full year 'twenty 'twenty results described.
Described them as a solid set of results are particularly against the backdrop of COVID-19.
And now ultra low interest rate environment.
The adjusted pre tax profits of $12 $1 billion.
Reported pretax profits of $8.8 billion.
Our cole capital by strengthened nicely with the year end core tier one of 15, 9% that's up 30 basis points in the fourth quarter and the 120 basis points items of the full year.
And deposits grew over 170 billion in the year on a constant currency basis, our growth rates of 12 the St.
Relative to the plan that we announced in February last year of the three year target to achieve a 100 billion.
Of Grace wish weighted assets saves in targeted areas.
We delivered out of a half of that in the first year of the program that we're very pleased about.
On operating costs, we reduced sales by $1 $1 billion or 3% in 2020.
And we committed today to achieve a figure of the 1 billion of savings by 2022 relative to our previous target.
However, the.
Impact of the ultra low rate environment means that we no longer expect the hit the 10% to 12% return on tangible equity target in 2022.
We've reset that target to at least 10% over the medium term, which we've described the three to four years.
And that is premised on a similar rate environment to what we see in the market today.
The underpinning this is a much stronger set of growth aspirations for us in Asia are both in wealth and in the wholesale banking.
With the target of increasing our capital allocated to Asia from 42% currently to over 50% over the coming years.
On the fourth quarter.
Again, a decent set of results reported pretax profits of $1 4 billion.
Adjusted revenues were down 14% on last year's fourth quarter, which was mainly driven by the progress of impact of ultra low interest rates.
Operating expenses were up 1% ex the bank Levy, but this was mainly due each of the increase.
And the variable pay accrual in the quarter with the variable pay pull for the full year down 17% on 2019.
Expected credit losses were $1 $2 billion in the quarter, bringing total expected credit losses for the full year to $8 $8 billion.
And that's at the lower end of the targeted $8 billion to $13 billion range that we announced earlier in the year.
While we do remain cautious on the outlook for credit for 2021.
We still expect the ECL charge to be lower than 2020.
We have no update to the guidance that we gave on this at the third quarter, which was broadly of range of 40 to 60 basis points for the full year.
And by 2022, we expect sales to have fallen materially from the 81 basis point charge, we had last year.
The words or even below the lower end of our 30 to 40 basis point normalized range.
And with that I'll pass over to Ian.
Thanks Kieran.
The one Ian Mckinnon here, thanks for dialing in.
I will just continue as the share.
Despite the weak macro environment, the balance sheet metrics continue to show strength.
Our CET one ratio was up 30 basis points in the fourth quarter to 15, 9%.
The <unk> 15 cents per share dividend announced today.
This impacted the ratio by around 40 basis points.
During 2020 customer deposits grew by over $200 million.
Our loan balance has remained broadly flat, resulting in the loan to deposit ratio of 63 two per cent.
And by eight eight percentage points since the start of the year.
The.
<unk> remained very liquid with gross high quality liquid assets of over $850 billion to hub.
Despite this our consolidated liquidity coverage ratios.
Was that on 11 percentage points.
139%.
2020, largely reflecting technical consolidation of adjustments in the calculation of the the.
The.
Consolidation.
On an increase in liquidity the risk.
Note that this may decline further as we implement a part of the regulatory adjustments.
The decline will have no material implications of the groups overall liquidity risk management.
On issuance I'm pleased with what we achieved in 2020.
During the year, we took a lot of action to reduce our refinancing risk in 'twenty one.
92.
While delivering negative net issuance.
By the tendering for nearly $12 billion of Enbrel in 2020.
We have reduced this year's refinancing requirements from $12 billion, the lesson of $6 billion.
The next year sort of $15 billion to lessen the $11 billion.
Looking out over this year, we expect to the share of around $15 billion of Enbrel against the maturities of calls of nearly $6 billion.
The difference is the fact that in this year and marks the final year of material increases in the amount of senior holdco debt needed to meet regulatory requirements.
From 'twenty to 'twenty two onwards, we expect the balance of senior Holdco debt to follow the progression of the group's startup of <unk>.
For Q1, we probably expect to refinance or in other instruments that we choose to redeem.
Or were they lose capital on the gym eligibility.
In line with what we did in 2020.
Again, nearly $2 billion worth of bonds and issued $1 $5 and return.
For tier two we have no plans to issue in 2021.
On slide bar, our guiding principle is to work with bondholders to transition where we can.
And we look forward to bringing forward transition offerings this year.
With that I'll hand back to Ewen.
Thanks Ann.
Before we open up the Q&A I did want to take this opportunity with all of you on the call actually decide many thanks day in credits actually is lost.
Fixed income call for us as <unk> treasurer.
Retiring over the next month or so after the.
Many years with us both on tax and Treasury.
On the next of the East Coast will have a new group treasurer will be now into a number of you colitis Pellegrini.
He was the recent group treasurer of UBS.
Colitis starts on Monday.
With us.
Oh.
With that if we can now open up for some questions.
Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, as a reminder, if you wish to ask a question. Please press star one on your telephone and wait for your name to be announced he wished to cancel your request. Please press star on to once again. Please press star one if you wish to ask a question.
Your first question comes from Paul Centre of Society Generale. Please go ahead. Your line is open.
Hi, good afternoon, gentlemen, the Ian Congratulations and best of luck.
For the future.
Really just call.
I guess two connected questions.
On the stage two and on.
Give me if if this came up this morning I may have missed it but.
Obviously the stage two.
Exposure ticked up again in the fourth quarter not by much but the buy some things.
The basically doubled during the year.
Thoughts I think I'm right in saying that youll the stage two elements that is past due.
Not changed at all during the year. So I was just trying to understand.
What's happening there between the relationship between the stage two.
On that.
As you know is still paying and those that are not paying is there a connection and if there is what is it on what might we expect from stage two balances share.
During the course of 2021.
And leading on to my next question, what where do you see for stage three.
I hear what you're saying about cost of risk, but if we think about and NPL ratio.
Stage three ratio do you think it peaks in 2021.
How far from from from the peak call. We right now. Thank you sorry about the low winter question.
As Richard Coney, All staff and Greg if you could maybe keeping the stage two of primarily due to the forward economic guidance on that.
Of those calculations on the day overlays.
And obviously when we did the year end.
Then.
Clearly in the last few weeks may be thinking about what the improved a little bit of.
Because of the vaccines, but clearly those there are still some deterioration for example in the UK.
And Youre right to say that we've had a remarkably low sort of level of default.
Throughout the year, we've had some we've always had some hits.
In terms of states what was the only thing.
Net draw on too much on on specific forecast with the clearly.
The default and sort of absorbed lagging indicator.
And certainly as government schemes matured the sheer you may see a pick up of stage III from some of those elements hopefully not.
And then if 40 current gardens improved during the year then you may see the Lou back from the stage two to stage. One so I think there's a lot of moving parts pulse the.
Broadly as you heard from you on.
Today.
The overall patient for the chalk the sheer remains in the 40 to 60 basis points of of.
Half of loans.
<unk> been unchanged since the Q3 stage, so you've seen the using the stabilization in the last few months.
Indeed, some of it on my quick wins in the last few weeks.
Greg anything to add to that.
Just then on the.
On the stage two sides of its worth noticing the.
A quarter of all of corporate loans.
Stage two right now are within the risk grades that we would quantify as like just the investment grade.
But obviously with those.
Those type of exposures that are relatively low P DS.
Take a particularly big shift for the PD each of the gray to such an extent the falls into stage II.
And then obviously, while the have been.
Of.
The significant downgrades across the portfolio, it's worth noting that the house smoked.
And the.
How does the how is it reflected in the number of somewhat.
Thank you.
Thank you. Your next question comes from the line of Lee Street from Citigroup. Please go ahead. Your line is open.
Hello, Good afternoon, Thanks, Jim the cool.
The three from three questions from me Firstly on the stage two is low now in the fixed income slide that you've called out chart on page 11 that shows the strong on good quality credit what's that has gone from 75% of the book tens of 73% over the year.
The stage two loans of increased parcel of bigger proportion from seven seven to 15 essentially okay.
Is it right to compare those things together.
My question is given the moving of stage two loans shouldn't I seen the sort of quite to reduction of the strong with good quality credit I'd be the first one.
Secondly, obviously the NAFTA if you sell the French retail operations on you so the U S.
Total price it would that be sufficient to OTA. Your funding plans. It helped us in terms of holding company's senior debt for the year given the reduction in risk weighted assets on Morgantown, and finally on the bank of England Legacy cash will review review, what's the you referred to determining where the action is required in terms of making that determination is that of course.
How you interpret the capital Crunch regulation or is it a question of materiality on how much of the debt.
On top of debt you have outstanding that'd be my three questions. Thank you.
Okay Richard.
Okay.
Maybe you can pick the type of food not most of our disclaimer to low youre right to say the clearly the best.
Oh good has.
Go down in the areas of showing low charts. There's another chart in the in the deck. So we got a lot of low growth, which showed actually more on the floating rate the migration, but there was a bit more of a stabilization.
Of course, the the grades in Q4.
Albeit we still we have some stage III in Sydney.
In the Q4 as well.
So the.
The other thing I would say is clearly you are right to point out the the states the liquids growth. So what I would say is we do use more scenario is low.
Of the banks, particularly in Europe. So sometimes you just need to go through all our work instead of on that but.
Obviously keep you like a slightly different picture to other banks, who might use slightly.
Fuel of different scenarios in the you know our first non modeling.
Yeah on the <unk>.
Question on French and U S retail on with that confirm whether or not we will sell of them, but if we were to sell all of them.
I don't think that would change our issuance plans, but they're not big enough to have any material impact.
And Greg do you want to take the third question on the legacy capital instruments.
Yeah of course, so on the legacy piece on the wording, we used to not slide was effectively to mirror the wording, but the the DSD CFO latter you used it.
It's not necessarily pointing towards the fact that we think that there may be any actions to take at the stage I think it's.
It's too early to say I am, but I'm kind of weird.
As you've heard of it from some of our U K peers over the last week or so.
We're busy and looking goes of the various bonds that we have as you know we've got a relatively small amount of respondents Mr. Grandfathered at the 2021.
And.
Well go to Chad the analysis with the.
The the PRA and hope the discussion from dental.
Alright.
It is the interpretation of the rules of materiality of over the place.
I think thats still for the discussion.
Alright, thanks very much.
Thank you.
Thank you and your next question comes from Daniel David from Autonomous. Please go ahead. Your line is open.
Hi, Good afternoon, Hi, good afternoon, and thanks for the call.
Just a quick one hopefully on on legacy capsule of I just wanted to touch on your on your <unk>.
So although they may not cause on infection risk I suppose there could be deemed an impediment to resolution. So my question is do you expect the PRA to consider other factors such as retail holding or non resolution entity impediments as part of the the process, which is going on here and secondly, just on the ESG.
No senior issuance in the past is there a percentage of of your ships on this year that we should think of B targets. The green format on them more broadly on the E. C taxonomy as kind of a positive step I guess to improve the ESG disclosure. So can you comment on how does the factors into the broader ESG strategy of HSBC.
Alright.
Great.
Got it off on.
The legacy.
Question on Scott's question.
Yeah.
Sure of course.
So on the Opco to you too.
Well I think it's it's it's again it's kind.
Still a discussion with them with the right over the course of this year be it either as part of the the Dia CFO lessor and what comes out of that during the course of the next month or so but also of course, the part of the resolution of assessment framework, but obviously was pushed back by 12 months, but of course. This is very much of an agenda item for us.
For this year.
At this stage I am as I say, there's not a huge amount to say on the subject obviously when impediment to resolution perspective, if we we can have a view on that and we can take that to the PRA and hope the discussion.
But I think it's going to be have to be a true shot discussion I'm on.
We wouldn't want to prejudge that.
Just to touch on on Green bonds.
I think we are.
We have.
As you can imagine a portfolio of greenhouse assets that we can push the kinds of things like green bonds.
In recent years, we've been prioritizing some client business that is back in the pit box by Green collateral.
So we have a number of them climb facilities like the Green G. D program, we have green structured notes, but for this year I think we would very much like you see that could come to the walking with the benchmark and the green deal the housekeeping a year or so since since we lost the into the market.
Great and just on the on the.
The the EC tax on me I guess on that.
The I guess the money market business, it's quite a big step forward in terms of improving disclosure. So I was just wondering more broadly if you're observing it on kind of if you're factoring into kind of the way the progressing as the as the ESG of lines on.
Yeah.
I mean, I'll I'll kick off here on the phone.
Question, but clearly.
As of now you see bank, where we're looking at the variety of framework of SaaS B on the.
The one which we're looking at particularly as the web framework World Economic Forum clearly, we've been a leader in Tcf the disclosures so.
And we made substantial the closest today in the East you report in the Tcf. The report on the new ESG. Thank you Pak.
So clearly we are working hard with all the relevant providers are but on the one way of we're moving forward for more generalist, who serves as the web framework on most of the answer the question, but that's how we're currently thinking about it.
Sure.
Okay.
Thanks very much.
Yes.
Thank you and your next question comes from outside of maybe as the Alba from Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead. Your line is open.
Thank you very much flow taking Michael.
I have three questions. The first question is regarding the east coast.
Should we think differently about the security that you see that issue from the Hong Kong subsidiary of.
Of the MTR from the center is quite high and I think you could do will not be invaluable after January 22.
My second question is on more broader question is regarding any impact.
Because of the movement to Hong Kong, I mean time, so and then.
In terms of regulatory environment.
On my third question is regarding ratings.
As part of any comments or thoughts about Moody's or Fitch downgrade.
Greg do you want to take the.
The first and third and then I'll pick up the second one.
Yeah of course of course, so I guess I think to the extent you should think about the the whole calling on the U K is sort of separately and that they are issued by two different banks wave of different regulatory regimes.
And obviously, if he notes different liquidity positions now I'm, not saying that we're necessarily going to look at them differently.
All of it one is more likely to be looked at as the somebody to take out in the future on notes, but I think it's worth bearing in mind that they are on the two very different regulatory regimes.
Pull up to now.
I'm on the rating side of things.
Hum.
I think we are.
But broadly coupled with the ratings that we have obviously, we'd always like them to be higher.
There's not really much we can we cannot be on the thing works and what the various rates of agencies have said publicly.
I'm on the subject at the stage of sleep.
If you want to engage with them directly you can you can feel free, but where we're not going to put words in their mouth.
Yeah on the regular life reported on yeah, you might need to clarify the question, but the I mean, there's nothing behind what we've announced that.
No the comments around considering moving some members of his senior management team to Hong Kong.
That's driven at all by regulation.
<unk>.
We are very much on masada.
Here in the UK, Norway.
For the foreseeable future of our base there in the UK and the.
And Theres nothing in today's announcement, that's driven by.
Either a pushback from the PRA or of pull factor from the edge kind of right.
Okay. That's great. Thank you very much.
Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, as a reminder, if you'd like to ask a question. Please press star and one star one to ask another question. Your next question comes from Tom Jenkins from Jefferies. Please go ahead. Your line is open.
Thank you Hello, and thank you Michelle Hello, everybody.
I'm Gonna FERC, Greg under the bus one more time on something like this guidance, but it's an easy one of my hope and then I've got a couple of questions on them on the asset sales if I may.
Lastly on them on.
The the legacies.
<unk>.
Yeah, if you like me.
You're basically homeschooling, several impatient and petulant traders.
Then the 31st of March it's become quite a big data on the calendar for the to the PRA review submissions.
What sort of communication do you think on them.
I'm pretty all sorts of bit early but do you have any plans to communicate to the market. What youll submissions are the looks like on rough ideas or are you going to wait until the sort of lots.
Lots of discussions with the PRA of concluded and if that's the case of what sort of timeframe.
Yes and on <unk>.
So moving on hold each of the best guess would you put on that before you visit the market communique.
And then and then secondly, the asset sales.
Really what I'm looking at the U S. I'm just wondering what your.
What package, you're looking to sell is it.
Just HSBC bank USA N a the.
Bulk of it the the.
The retail business is at the intermediate Holdco that sits above the HSBC USA, Inc.
That's a package or you pretty much open to just.
Selling parcels of loans just that until you can get a bid for them.
And I guess the same thing goes for France, really maybe looking more on the liability side, if you're seeing as I understand already separated retail from a commercial lending to larger extent the.
Wood is it your anticipation at this stage that the.
Pack of as you look at the Sun in France would include CCF bonds or not would be my questions. Thank you.
Yeah, So Greg I don't know if I got this guy the question that I can pick up the M&A questions.
Yeah of course look on.
Generally speaking across the piece.
Obviously the March 31st deadline is the deadline for the submit kind of all of our initial.
The analysis and thoughts on how long that conversation chromosome I'm very very hard for us to to the guide on I think it will be a function of the.
Many things and obviously one of your different priorities. So.
I'm afraid I'm gonna have to disappoint you, that's all of them and I'll give you a specific.
But look on on the on the market disclosure in things like the look it really depends on what is there anything to tell you I was kind of the first the first point.
If there is something to tell you that of course, we're very conscious that the the maybe price sensitive information of the mix here and if we if we need to make a disclosure will make a disclosure, but would not kind of planning at this stage you know what kind of.
The wholesale.
Disclosure items.
Piece to be quite honest with you it's more around if if we do become.
All of you so anything will will say something right.
Okay.
I figured as much just wanted to.
Check.
Yeah, and look on all of us I somewhat constrained telling of what I can say about the M&A processes, but I think it.
If M&A prices do of venture it that'll be.
The France wind includes the bonds and the U S.
Wouldn't be legal entity.
It would not be of legal entity.
So did I catch that it's.
It's always true clocking up of it that's easy.
If the favorite school event will talk of.
Actual true okay interesting. Thank you very much.
Thank you and your next question comes from the line of well the Smalley UBS. Please go ahead. Your line is open.
Hi, Thanks, very much for taking my questions and good luck, Ian and thanks.
Thanks, very much for the package that you send every quarter on Thats very helpful.
The two topics, one and I guess of both kind of following on from Tom.
In the call earlier this morning.
It was the idea of trapped capital in the U S.
Was was brought up.
How much capital is trapped in the U S. How would you plan on getting it out are there tax implications to that and what's changed because I imagine that debt you've wanted to get some of the sad for awhile.
And I guess secondly, if you could follow up on the comment you just made on the legal entity non legal entity.
The call broke up and I'm not really sure of what you were referring to.
Well on the second question I think the question was are we contemplating selling a legal entity in the U S. On the answer is no.
Okay.
On the trapped capital of this has been an issue that has persisted for a number of years and.
Yeah today, a order of magnitude probably something in the order of about $5 billion of capital you've done.
Debt at the group level, because effectively we take on additional double leverage.
What we'd like to do is probably of the capital out by the double leverage down.
The.
The.
Yes, we think it will be a three four year journey for us of restructuring of the U S business and getting the regulators comfortable of that we've got a sustainably profitable business in the U S.
And then three simple CCAR cycles effectively.
Getting approval to pay debt capital up to the group.
And there is no tax of cases without the non normal dividend dividend upstream.
Okay.
Makes sense. Thank you.
Thank you and your next question comes from the line of James Hyde from P. G. I am. Please go ahead. Your line is open.
Uh huh.
Hi, everyone.
Yes, my questions more slightly philosophical one of them about where you're going on.
Nicely for us as well.
Oh, the investment the developed market investment portfolios that that's on.
The company runs.
Now, 42% tangible equity invested in Asia goes to 50% kind of why stop at 50% given the on ROE differential is that is that the sort of stope that's the.
Then makes you have to revisit domicile.
Hum.
Oh yeah.
Is this to do with balance of school the rating agencies I just wanted to understand the thinking of any such benchmark.
The that's the first question on this.
I guess that was driven by a sort of realistic medium to on a medium to longer term type of it of a shifting of capital I mean, when you do the math on on the there's a fairly material reallocation of capital for them.
West to east over that period of pricing.
And so waste.
Yeah, I wouldn't fixate on 50%, but yeah, we are of global business today.
And a lot of the value in Asia is driven by that global connectivity out of customers in the U S and Europe and the U K.
And therefore, there will always I think for the foreseeable future be material amounts of capital invested.
Outside of Asia to support.
And self reinforcing with the Asian business.
And Jim you know the the time the timeframe here it was.
345 years, depending on which the particular target I'm. So clearly as we get go for that time period, we'll roll forward on our plans to suit them on the opportunities of what you see at the time. So it's very much meant to be a pathway for the next few years.
Thanks, Hugh and thanks, Richard just another question on.
These proposals regarding ESG, that's particularly climate the concerns that you're going to put to the AGM.
I just wanted to understand.
Can you give us some color on what's going to change is it going to be a full moon refusal to do any more cold anywhere or any other fossil fuels.
Just one on kind of what would satisfy the.
Some of the shareholders ESG shareholders, that's all kind of been vocal.
Well I'll tell you that.
We've obviously, we're seeing the short from the resolution on the day.
Which was co followed by other institutional and retail shareholders.
We are in positive.
Positive discussions with that with that group and clearly we'll have to put out of our AGM notice.
Some time towards the end of March.
And in any event, there will be a climate resolution filed but clearly.
As you saw reported last year, there were actually two resolutions followed but ultimately of number of vessels for other was just one resolution vote. So we're still in that process. Jim. So I'm afraid we can't be too specific but how does the C O No Quinta day.
Clearly that would be an element of the commitment twin of the findings of the co.
Two of the certain period of time, clearly will also be making quite of disclosures in terms of sectors and the SEC the pathway towards the net.
Zero goal for 2015, but that's still very much work in progress and we can always the update you as and when I know before we filed the AGM notice in the few weeks time.
Great. Thank you very much.
Okay.
Thank you we will now take our final question on your final question for today comes from the line of Dan <unk> from Goldman Sachs. Please go ahead. Your line is open.
Hi, there thanks for the call.
Just a quick one on one.
You broke up a little earlier, so it's more of a clarification on issuance and 81.
I assume there that the refinancing of includes the the $2 billion of 91 coming on on the $1 8 billion in legacy tier one and then the kind of follow on from that.
If the PRA asks you to remove some of the Opco debt that is kind of took on.
On your tier two would that change share issuance there.
And then I'm sure. This was covered on the call earlier, but that's the drop off.
But just trying to tell you a few numbers on your or the few ways.
Like I'm missing.
I'm thinking in terms of increases for this year.
So it just looks like you simply reach next year with pretty significant excess capital on I guess, that's the hints of total buybacks or is there something this year that I should.
Take note of.
Alright.
And the what I'll take the first part of that of course.
The pick up on AWS.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But.
The day stay if you want I mean on the if you want but what we said of course.
On that we would continue with the parts of our no.
Replacing when appropriate.
I don't really think we want to go beyond that on the tier two.
We're not seeing any sort.
Memory.
Think of the section from the PRA beyond the conversations we're having with them on the legacy instruments.
So I don't think there would be anything happening this year that would force us to change the issuance plans.
I mean, that's where we are.
And then on other Blue eyes are.
On the equity call the smaller I mean, firstly, we havent got of.
Our capital ratios at the end of.
What I did say.
What's the following I mean, firstly, yes, we are probably more volume.
Santos on loan growth as you would expect this debate, but yeah. We are targeting mid single digit loan growth of over the next couple of years.
We have about 10 billion.
The <unk> regulatory price is the here and probably a combined 40 to 50 billion of neither of the period through 2023.
We've got the <unk> rundown program, that's still on guidance, we did 52 in the first year.
Yeah, We've got another 30 day this year, we think.
And the remainder of the year after.
And then yes, you'll have your own views on credit rating migration.
So that could be a degree of that this year the efficacy of the of reasons boiler seem that there is until there isn't.
Okay.
Yes, I think youre right that some of the equity analyst passing the that led to it.
The significant capital surpluses I did say this morning, so the animal the sell side that we weren't planning any buybacks on top of the on top of the dividends this year.
Okay perfect.
Nothing beyond the.
I should be taking.
The old stuff I assume so there was nothing.
None of the woodwork.
Okay perfect. Thank you very much.
Okay.
Thanks, everyone for joining the call today, if you've got any follow up questions. Please follow up with Greg case has been on the call.
And your normal Investor relations channels, but greatly appreciate you taking the time to join the call today. Thank you.
Thank you that does conclude our conference for today. Thank you for participating you may all disconnect.
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