Q2 2022 M&T Bank Corp Earnings Call
Speaker 1: Do.
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Speaker 3: to begin. If you need audio assistance during today's program please press star zero.
Speaker 3: Welcome to the M&T Bank Second Quarter 2022 Earnings Conference Call. At this time all participants are in a listen-only mode. Following management's prepared remarks, the call will be open for questions. If you would like to ask a question at that time, please press star 1 on your telephone keypad. Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded. I would now like to hand the conference over to Brian Klopf, Head of Markets and Investor Relations. Please go ahead.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Greg, and good morning. I'd like to thank everyone for participating at MIT Second Quarter 2022 earnings conference call, a spite telephone, and to the broadcast.
Speaker 4: If you have not read the earnings release, we issued this morning. You may access it along with the financial tables and schedules from our website, www.ctb.com.
Speaker 4: and by clicking on the investor relations link and then on the events and presentation link. and then on the events and presentation link.
Speaker 4: before we start. I'd like to mention that today's presentation may contain forward-looking information.
Speaker 4: Cost-nery statements about this information.
Speaker 4: as well as reconciliation of non-GAAP financial measures.
Speaker 4: included in today's earnings release
Speaker 4: As well as our SEC filings and other investor materials.
Speaker 4: These materials are all available.
Speaker 4: of the best relations webpage, and we encourage participants to refer to that for a complete discussion for looking state.
Speaker 4: participants to refer to them for a complete discussion of forward-looking statements and risk factors. Thank you. Thank you.
Speaker 4: These statements speak only as of the day made and the T-Under takes no obligation to update them. The T-Under takes no obligation to update them.
Speaker 4: Now, I'd like to turn the call over to our Chief Financial Officer, Darren Kenyon.
Speaker 5: Thank you Brian and good morning everyone.
Speaker 5: As we reflect on the past quarter and the first half of the year, we're very pleased with our progress.
Speaker 5: The second quarter results include the impact of the people's United Financial Acquisition, which closed on April 1st.
Speaker 5: We're excited about the momentum we have as a combined organization, especially the progress both franchises are making in preparation for the planned systems conversion later this quarter.
Speaker 5: With strong NII growth,
Speaker 5: An effective expense management, MIT generated positive operating leverage as pre-tax, pre-provision net revenue increased by more than $300 million versus last quarter.
Speaker 5: We repurchased $600 million of our common stock in the second quarter, and yesterday, the Board of Directors authorized a new program to repurchase up to $3 billion in M&T common stock.
Speaker 5: Our balance sheet management enabled us to benefit from the changing interest rate environment, boosting the net interest margin, and allowing us to deploy excess cash into investment securities with higher yields.
Speaker 5: With more Fed Hikes projected this year, we continue to add more fixed rate assets to our balance sheet and to continue extending our interest rate hedging program.
Speaker 5: Well, we're just beginning to see the positive that interesting come benefit from rising rates. That interesting come benefit from rising rates.
Speaker 5: Those same higher rates have prompted headwinds to our mortgage banking business. And our mortgage banking business. And our mortgage banking business. And our mortgage banking business.
Speaker 5: both for origination volumes and for gain on seal margins.
Speaker 5: We expect these headlines to persist.
Speaker 5: Despite the macro challenges, the unemployment rate remains low and credit quality remains strong.
Speaker 5: We're well positioned for the future and excited to continue the integration of the People's United franchise and to deploying our excess cash and excess capital.
Speaker 5: Now let's reduce the results for the core.
Speaker 5: Deluted gap for running for common share for $1.8 for the second quarter of 2022 compared with $2.62 in the first quarter of 2022.
Speaker 5: Net income for the quarter was $218 million, compared with $362 million in the linked quarter.
Speaker 5: On a GAT basis, MET II-Corder results produced an annualized rate of return on average assets of 0.42% and an annualized return on average common equity of 3.21%
Speaker 5: This compares with rates of 0.97% and 8.55% respectively in the previous quarter.
Speaker 5: Included in GAAP results in the recent quarter were after-tax expenses from the amortization of intangible assets amounting to $14 million, or 8 cents per common share.
Speaker 5: That compares to $1 million, or one cent per common share, in the prior quarter.
Speaker 5: Pre-tax, merger related expenses of $465 million related to the People's United acquisition were also included in these GAAP results.
Speaker 5: These merger related expenses are comprised of the so-called CECL Day 2 double count of $242 million plus additional pre-tax merger related expenses of $223 million.
Speaker 5: The total merger-related charges translate to $346 million after tax, or $1.94 per comment share.
Speaker 5: Consistent with our long-term practice, MET provides supplemental reporting of its results on a net operating, obtainable basis, from which we only ever exclude the after-tax effect of amortization of intangible assets, as well as any gains or expenses associated with mergers and acquisitions. METs associated with mergers and acquisitions.
Speaker 5: M&T's net operating income for the second quarter, which excludes intangible amortization and the merger related expenses.
Speaker 5: was $578 million, compared with $376 million in the linked quarter.
Speaker 5: Diluted net operating earnings per common share were $3.10 for the recent quarter, compared with $2.73 in 2022's first quarter.
Speaker 5: That operating income yielded annualized rates of return from average tangible assets and average tangible common shareholders equity of 1.16% and 14.41% for the recent quarter. torque bill 1.16% and 14.41% for the recent quarter.
Speaker 5: The comparable returns were 1.04% and 12.44% in the first quarter of 2022.
Speaker 5: In accordance with the SEC's guidelines, this morning's press release contains a reconciliation of GAAP and non-GAAP results, including tangible assets and equity.
Speaker 5: As a reminder, included in the first quarter's gap and operating results,
Speaker 5: with a $30 million distribution from our investment in the Bayview lending group.
Speaker 5: This amounted to $23 million after tax effect, and $17 cents per comment share.
Speaker 5: We did not receive any distributions in this year's second quarter.
Speaker 5: Next, let's take a little deeper dive into the underlying trends that generated these results.
Speaker 5: Taxable equivalent net interest income was $1.42 billion in the second quarter of 2022, an increase of $515 million, or 57% from the linked quarter.
Speaker 5: The link quarter increase was due largely to the $420 million net interest income contribution from peoples United.
Speaker 5: This amount included $35 million for purchase accounting accretion.
Speaker 5: The legacy M&T Bank net interest income increased $95 million sequentially.
Speaker 5: Inclusive of the $138 million impact from higher rates on the
Speaker 5: An 8 million dollar increase from one additional day in the quarter, partially offset by a $22 million decline and the benefit from cash flow swaps and a $16 million decrease in interest received on not a cruel loans.
Speaker 5: and a $9 million decline in interest income and fees related to PPP loans.
Speaker 5: Net interest margin for the past quarter was 3.01%.
Speaker 5: 36 basis points from 2.65% in the link quarter.
Speaker 5: The primary driver of the increase to the margin was from higher interest rates, which we estimate boosted the margin by 26 basis points.
Speaker 5: The people's united, earning after yields added 8 basis points to the Meditus margin. The people's united, earning after yields
Speaker 5: In addition, Martin benefited from a reduced level of cash held on deposit with the Federal Reserve, which we
Speaker 5: These items were partially offset by a six basis point decline resulting from the lower interest income recovered on non-accrual loans.
Speaker 5: All other factors, including the day count, had a negligible impact on the margin.
Speaker 5: Before we discuss the average loan balance transfer the quarter, we note there were reclassifications that the people of the United Commercial loan portfolio. But then the people of the United Commercial loan portfolio.
Speaker 5: In order to be more consistent with M&T's reporting methodology, just over $2 billion in loans that people's United had classified as CNI were reclassified into seary loans. Money will exceed that of the Energy Institute and Canada. Rub dazu is a milestone, because tonight the human rights corporation will closely present government staff intoagrams on for U.S., and dangerous organizations jointly treaty between safety and scoring. Any further comments? Any further comments? Any further comments? Any further comments? you
Speaker 5: Compared with the first quarter of 2022, average loans outstanding increased by $35.4 billion, 38 percent.
Speaker 5: who primarily to the $35.5 billion average impact of the people's United Zones..
Speaker 5: Looking at loans by category on an average basis compared with the linked quarter.
Speaker 5: Commercial and industrial loans increased by $14.5 billion or about 62%.
Speaker 5: The average impact from the acquired people's united loans was $13.8 billion.
Speaker 5: MN-LEGACY-MNT, C&I average loans increased by about $1.2 billion, with strong growth in middle market C&I loans, an average dealer floor plan balance growth of $209 million. MN-LEGACY-MNT, C&I average dealer floor plan balance growth of $209 million.
Speaker 5: This growth was partially offset by a decrease of approximately $466 million in PPP loans.
Speaker 5: On an end of period basis for the Combined Bank, PPP loans amounted to $351 million.
Speaker 5: Average commercial real estate loans increased by $12.3 billion, or 35%, compared to the first quarter.
Speaker 5: The average impact from the acquired people's United loans was 13.1 billion dollars. The average impact from the acquired people's billion dollars. $30 billion dollars. $1.00 million.
Speaker 5: Legacy M&T CRE average balances declined $830 million during the second quarter due to almost equal reductions in construction and permanent loans.
Speaker 5: We continue to reduce our construction at the exposure as there is a lack of new activity to offset the conversion of construction loans in department mortgages.
Speaker 5: There was an uptick in permanent mortgage financing in the quarter, however, it was outpaced by an elevated level of payouts.
Speaker 5: The potential real estate loans increased by $6.9 billion or 43%, due almost entirely to the average impact of the people's United bonds. The
Speaker 5: The legacy M&T average loan balances were essentially flat at the retention of new originations retained for investment.
Speaker 5: were offset by normal runoff combined with the sale of Gini-Maid biotes that became eligible for re-pooling into new RMBS.
Speaker 5: Average consumer loans were up $1.8 billion or 10%.
Speaker 5: Again, due in large part to the $1.6 billion average impact from the People's United loans.
Speaker 5: For legacy M&T, recreational finance long growth continues to be a key driver of growth. It continues to be a key driver of growth.
Speaker 5: Average investment securities increased by $14.7 billion.
Speaker 5: due to the $11.2 billion average impact from the acquired People's United Securities and a $3.5 billion increase in legacy M&T investment securities.
Speaker 5: Average earning assets, excluding money market placements.
Speaker 5: which is inclusive of cash on deposit at the Federal Reserve, increased $50 billion, or 50 percent.
Speaker 5: too largely to the $46.7 billion average impact of people's united and growth and legacy M&T average investment securities. M&T average investment securities.
Speaker 5: After closing the acquisition, we implemented various balance sheet restructuring actions to optimize the funding base of the combined bank.
Speaker 5: These actions utilize some of the cash available and resulted in a decrease in deposits.
Speaker 5: Many of these actions occurred during the quarter, so we thought it would be more informative to look at the change in end-of-period cash balances. And I would like to look at the change in end-of-period cash balances.
Speaker 5: Cash balance is decreased by $11.8 billion to $33.4 billion at the end of June .
Speaker 5: Down from just over $45.2 billion on April 1st.
Speaker 5: The decline was the result of several factors. These include
Speaker 5: A $2 billion increase in investment securities.
Speaker 5: a 1.5 billion dollar restructuring of some People's United high-cost deposits, notably broker deposits,
Speaker 5: A $3 billion decline in escrow and mortgage warehouse related deposits reflecting lower levels of activity associated with the rising rate
Speaker 5: A $500 million reduction in trust demand deposits resulting from lower levels of capital market activity compared with the first quarter.
Speaker 5: And a $2 billion drop in municipal deposits.
Speaker 5: We continue to actively manage higher cost deposits and in many cases retain the customer and are able to move their balances to an off balance sheet alternative that provides the interest rate they desire.
Speaker 5: With that background, average core customer deposits, which exclude CDs over $250,000, increased by $45 billion, or 36% compared with the first quarter.
Speaker 5: The average impact from the People's United Deposits was about $49 billion.
Speaker 5: to non-interest income.
Speaker 5: Non-interest income totaled $571 million in the second quarter compared with $541 million in the late quarter.
Speaker 5: The People's United Non-Interest Pincome contributed $79 million, while legacy M&T declined by $49 million. The People's United Non-Interest Pincome contributed $49 million.
Speaker 5: As noted, M&T received a $30 million distribution from Baby Lending Group in the first quarter and did not receive any distribution in the second quarter of this year.
Speaker 5: Mortgage banking revenues were $83 million in the recent quarter compared to the $109 million in the late quarter.
Speaker 5: Remedutes from our residential mortgage business were $50 million in the second quarter, and a period with $76 million in the prior quarter.
Speaker 5: Residential loans originated for sale for $77 million in the recent quarter compared with $161 million in the first quarter. But not last week which was partly due toätzen
Speaker 5: Both figures reflect our decision to retain a substantial majority of our mortgage in our gleich sites. Legislature is one of people's main events of congress senate, which is a rescue arrest warrant called the actual emergency police check anymore. Also, a certificate of Allen law evaluated in one place by the Fredang Agalini Foundation wrote a report Thank you.
Speaker 5: The primary driver.
Speaker 5: of the linked quarter decline in revenue is the higher interest rate environment. It is the higher interest rate environment.
Speaker 5: which has pressured gain-on-sale margins for loans previously purchased from Ginnie Mae servicing pools and which became eligible for resale or re-pooling.
Speaker 5: With the rapid increase in yields for new mortgage originations over the past few months, these Ginnie Mae re-pooled loans have fallen below new origination yields, which has driven the negative gain on sale margin.
Speaker 5: During the quarter, residential mortgage loans were sold at a loss of $17 million compared to a $14 million gain on sale in the prior quarter.
Speaker 5: Commercial mortgage banking revenues were $33 million in the second quarter, essentially unchanged from the linked quarter.
That figure was $35 million in a year ago.
Trust income was $190 million in the recent quarter, and included about $14 million in income from people's United. And included about $14 million in income from people's United.
Legacy M&T Trust income increased about 4%, due largely to about $10 million from the recapture of money market fee waivers and $4 million in seasonal tax preparation fees.
partially offset by the impact of lower market valuations on assets under
E is on deposit accounts for $124 million compared with $102 million in the first quarter.
Peoples United contributed $33 million to this fee income line during the quarter.
The decline in legacy MET service charges primarily reflects the previously announced repricing of our consumer checking products.
We expect Fortgon revenues from the program to reach a run rate of $15 million per quarter during the second half of the year.
Operating expenses for the second quarter, which exclude the amortization of intangible assets and merger related expenses, were $1.16 billion.
included about 259 million dollars in expenses from the operations of People's United.
Legacy M&T operating expenses were about $903 million compared to $941 million in the linked corner at 859 million dollars in the year ago quarter. $859 million in the year ago quarter.
Recall, operating expenses for the first quarter include approximately $74 million of seasonally higher compensation costs.
aside from those seasonal factors that flow suit through salaries and benefits.
Legacy M&T operating expenses increased by $36 million from the first quarter.
This increase does do almost entirely to higher salaries and benefits costs, resulting from one additional business day.
a full quarter impact of varied increases and increased incentive of croubles to improve bank performance.
The efficiency ratio, which excludes intangible amortization and merger related expenses from the numerator and securities gains or losses from the denominator, was 58.3% in the recent quarter compared with 64.9% in 2022's first quarter and 58.4% in the second quarter of last year.
Next, let's turn to credit.
Despite the lingering challenges of the pandemic and its variance.
supply chain disruption, labor shortages, and persistent inflation, credit is
The allowance for credit losses amounted to $1.82 billion at the end of the second quarter.
$352 million from the end of the link quarter.
The increase was due largely to the impact of the allowance related to the Acquired People's United Loan Portfolio.
We ran the acquired loan book through our allowance methodology and essentially confirmed their allowance at closing.
Applying the provisions from the CCELA accounting principle, we assign $99 million of the People's United allowance to purchase credit deteriorated or PCD loans and $242
In addition, we recorded $60 million per vision in the second quarter.
Partially offsetting these increases were net charge of the $50 million in the second quarter compared to just $7 million in this year's first quarter.
Economic indicators continue to show improvement from the prior period, but inflation remains at a historically high level.
Aside from movements in forward industry curves, the second quarter's baseline macroeconomic forecast was relatively unchanged from the prior quarter for those indicators that have a significant impact on our seasonal modeling results, including the unemployment rate, GDP growth, and residential and commercial real estate values.
Non-accrual loans increased to $2.6 billion compared to $2.1 billion sequentially.
The increase was entirely the result of the acquired people's United Loan Portfolio as non-accrual loans at legacy MNT decreased sequentially. The increase was entirely the result of the acquired people's United Loan Portfolio
At the end of the second quarter, Donna Kruel-Lones represented 2.1% of loans down from 2.3% at the end of the link quarter. Donna Kruel-Lones represented 2.3% at the end of the link quarter.
When we file our second quarter 10 queue in a few weeks, we expect to report an increase in criticized loans. However, the percentage of loans recognized as criticized will decrease.
Similar to the trends in the non-accrual portfolio, the increase in the dollar amount of criticized loans is due entirely to the acquired People's United portfolio. We expect a modest decline in criticized legacy M&T loans.
As noted, charge us for the recent quarter amounted to $50 million.
Annualized net charge offs as a percentage of total loans were 16 basis points for the quarter compared to three basis points in the first quarter.
Lones 90 days passed due on which we continue to accrue interest for $524 million at the end of the quarter down from $777 million sequentially.
In total, 89% of these 90 days past due loans were guaranteed by government related entities.
I need a capitol.
METE's Common Equity Tier 1 ratio was an estimated 10.9%, compared with 11.7% at the end of the first quarter.
The decrease was largely due to the impact of people's United Acquisition and the repurchase of $600 million in common shares, which represented 2% of our outstanding common stock.
Tansule common equity totaled $15.3 billion, increased 33% from the end of the prior quarter, due largely to the impact of the people's United merger. Tansule common equity totaled $15.3 billion,
Tangible common equity per share amounted to $85.78 per share, down $3.55 or 4% from the end of the first quarter.
As previously noted, the Board of Directors of African Church and Domeosaurus
Repurchase program shrub to $3 billion of common stock, which replaces the previous $800 million repurchase program under which $600 million of M&T shares were purchased in the second quarter. $2 billion of M&T shares were purchased in the second quarter.
Now, let's turn to the outlook.
Interest rate expectations continue to be volatile and can have a material impact on our look for a full year 2022.
Similar to last quarter, the elbow of the follows reflects the combined balance sheet.
with three-quarters of operations from peoples United.
as well as the more recent forward curve.
and is on a full-your-basis.
First, let's talk about our outlook for the balance sheet.
We continue to expect to grow the investment securities portfolio by $2 billion per quarter for the remainder of the year.
However, that cadence could accelerate or slow, depending on market conditions, as well as customer long demand.
Now, to turn it to the outlook for average loans.
When compared to standalone M&T full year 2021, average loan balances of $97 billion. We continue to expect average loan growth for our combined franchise to be in the 24-26% range.
However, growth may come in near the lower end of that range.
Note that the updated average growth rates for C&I and CRE loans reflect the re-classification of CRE loans from the former people's United Homebook that we mentioned earlier.
On a combined and full-year average basis, we expect average C&I growth in the 37-39% range. We expect average C&I growth in the 37-39% range.
We expect average CRE growth in the 17 to 19 percent range.
Average residential mortgage growth in the 28 to 30% range, an average consumer loan growth in the 10 to 12% range. Average consumer loan growth in the 10 to 12% range.
As we look at the combined income statement, Hertz stand alone, MNT operations from 2021.
We believe we're well positioned to benefit from higher rates and to manage through the macro challenges we noted earlier on this call.
Our outlook for net interest income for the combined franchise is for 56% full year growth compared with the $3.8 billion in 2021.
This reflects the forward yield curve from the beginning of the month.
Given the speed of interest rate hikes by the Fed, the reactivity of deposit pricing, and the deployment of excess liquidity and loan growth, the full year end net interest income could be plus or minus 2%.
Trying to defeat businesses.
We still expect strong trust income growth driven by new business and the recapture of money market fee waivers that I'll be at lower than previous expectations as a result of the lower equity valuations from second quarter.
In addition, higher interstates are expected to continue to pressure more to the regionations and gain on sale margins. In addition, higher interstates are expected to continue to pressure more to the regionations and gain on sale margins.
We have completed the sales of Ginnie Mae Repooled Mortgages and we will continue with the retention of almost all originations for the rest of the year.
With this in mind, we expect the gain on sale for residential mortgages to be minimal in the second half of the year.
We therefore now expect non-interesting income to grow in the 5 to 7% range for the full year compared to $2.2 billion in 2021.
Next, our outlook for full year 2022 operating non-interest expense is impacted by the timing of the People's United Systems conversion and subsequent realization of expense synergies.
We continue to anticipate 24 to 26% growth in combined operating non-intercept expenses compared to the $3.6 billion in 2021. We continue to anticipate 24 to 26% growth in 2021. We continue to anticipate 24 to 26% growth in combined operating non-intercept expenses compared to the $3.6 billion in 2021. We continue to anticipate 24 to 26% growth
However, expenses are likely to be near the higher end of the range, reflecting inflationary pressures on wages and improved bank performance.
As a reminder, these operating non-interest expenses do not include pre-tax merger-related charges. To not include pre-tax merger-related charges.
We do not expect these charges to be materially different than our initial estimates.
Turning to credit.
We continue to expect credit losses to remain well below at the time of the long-term average of 33 basis points. We continue to expect credit losses to remain well below at the time of the long-term average of 33 basis points. We continue to expect credit losses to remain well below
For 2022, we conservatively estimate that NET Chargers for the combined company will be in the 20 basis point range. We'll be in the 20 basis point range. We'll be in the 20 basis point range.
Finally, turn to Capitol.
We believe the current level of core capital is higher than what is needed to safely run the combined organization and to support lending in our communities.
We plan to return access capital to shareholders at a measured pace.
Late in June , the Federal Reserve released the results of its stress test, also known as the DFAS.
Based on these DFAST results, MNT's preliminary stress capital buffer, or SCB, is estimated at 4.7%.
As a result, we will be subject to a 9.2% common equity tier one ratio threshold under the SCB regulation, which is in effect from October 1st, 2022 through September 30th, 2023.
METs common equity tier one ratio of 10.9% at June 30th comfortably exceeds the threshold although which capital distributions could be limited by that regulation.
We continue to anticipate ending 2022 with a CET1 ratio in the 10.5% range.
with a solid starting capital position and the potential to generate
significant additional amounts of capital over the next few years, we don't anticipate the material change to our capital distribution plans.
Our objective, as always, is to bring our CET-1 ratio down gradually to a level that is near the high end of the lower quartile of our pure group.
anticipate continuing to repurchase common shares under the new $3 billion repurchase program.
So now let's open up the call to questions before which Gretchen will
At this time, if you'd like to ask a question, please press the star and one on your touch tone phone. You may remove yourself from the queue at any time by pressing the pound key. We do ask that you limit yourself to one question and one follow-up and the interest of others. And one follow-up and the interest of others.
Thank you. The first question we'll take is Betsy Grasek from Morgan Stanley .
I was wondering if you could give us an update on your rate sensitivity today now that we're a little bit further into the rate hike cycle and assuming that the current forward curve plays out, where do you expect that to trend over time? Thanks.
Terran Bryant, good morning. You know, as obviously the Fed's hiking in a lot of faster pace, I don't want any of us anticipated when we started the Porter and started the year. When we look at the mix of deposits on our balance sheet and some of the actions that we've taken this quarter to move out of some high cost funding. You know, when we look at the next several hikes and think about what the impact of a 25 basis pointing.
I'm just kind of how we're thinking about it and what we're seeing again based on the deposits on our portfolio. Thanks for the deposits on our portfolio.
That's really helpful though. Thank you.
changes you made to some of your high-pust funding sources. That's one of you just talk about your overall deposit growth expectations through your end.
Well, when you look at M&T and our funding, we have one of the higher, what I would call core funding portfolios amongst our peers and amongst the banks. So a significant portion is in non-experience.
DDA as well as interest checking which tend to be operational accounts. And so, you know, when we look at those accounts whether it's consumers, small business, or commercial customers, you know, we do expect that there will be some decline as people continue to spend given the rate of inflation. But so far the decline we've been watching has been fairly gradual. We have seen some commercial customers use some of the excess cash to pay down loans. That's part of when you see some of the loan declines. We're seeing that offset by
by pay us or by them using a cash. And then really the place where you start to see the most price sensitivity in the short term tends to be as we mentioned earlier in the municipal deposit space as well as in the wealth customer space. And so we'll expect to see some movement there. And typically what happens is there's some instances where the actual pricing goes up on interest checking or savings of money market.
But generally what happens first, particularly in the consumer space, is you start to see balances migrate towards time deposits. And so part of what we'll see for us and we would expect for the industry is a migration towards time deposits and that will be what kind of drives the overall beta for deposit costs more so than any one particular category of deposits moving up in a rapid pace. And so just given the nature of our deposit pace.
We expect some decline, but we don't expect it to be...
excessive from here. You know, maybe in the 1% to 2% range, but really not that much.
Thank you.
Our next question comes from John Pancari, Edward Corps ISI.
Good morning.
Hey John . On the, just on the low graph, I appreciate the guide for the 24 to 26% on average to the balances. Just wanna see if you can maybe give a little color in terms of the trajectory of the commercial real estate portfolio. You know, it's a fairly assumed that the clients are gonna continue and then you kind of alluded to that and would it be out like the clients in the balances or just a shrinking and the overall mix, but you could actually see growth there.
Thanks. So looking at commercial in aggregate, I think it's important to look at the two in aggregate.
we think they'll be relatively close to flat. The growth in CNI, XPPP, will offset what's likely to be a decline in CRE. And when we look at the CRE balances and what's happening there, there's really two things going on. The first, which we've been talking about for a while, is construction loans are on the decline. And so we had back in 2018 and 2019, DElees and
some real growth in construction lines, but over the course of 2020 and 2021 and 2022 have been drawn down as projects have been underway. You know, you did see a little delay in the pandemic, but projects got back on track. And as those come to completion, they'll follow their normal course where they will get converted into permanent mortgages, and that often happens off of our balance sheet. And so, you know, I continue to expect some decline in construction balances.
On the permanent side, as I mentioned, we have seen some payoffs from customers using cash. We haven't, using their cash, their access cash and declining their balances. The level of activity that you typically see in the series base continues to be low. With rates moving, it's affecting cap rates and asset values. And so you're not seeing the turnover in properties like you might have under normal circumstances.
And that will affect the pace of decline and or growth in permanent CRE. And so what we saw this quarter, if I look at loan originations in the quarter across CNI and CRE, it was actually our best. And I would say we don't want to do the same thing afterward. By two, I think it is a great idea to look at, because it is, we're fortressing dominant CRE, not that we belong to. So that's what I think we don't want to reach that query. And we just want to put numbers in person. And this is what happens when you get a CRE??? to come into person. You even don't have to worry in that there is a track tell me that when it comes between other stakeholders it means to get access to the CRE. Before I consent, I would like to thank all of you of your support and support matters that they will make in future operations in definitely best.
Post pandemic, non-fourth quarter. Lots of qualifiers there.
increase in originations which I thought was a very positive sign. And it was a little bit weighted towards the back end of the quarter. And so, you know, I guess to think about permanent mortgages down slightly, construction mortgages down a little bit more over the course of the year, which probably takes in dollars, maybe a billion dollars down, you know, call it 1%, 1-2% offset by growth in C&I.
Got it. Okay. Thanks, Darren. And then separately, just on the buyback front, it was good to see the new 3 billion authorization. How should we think about the piece of buybacks here? Is it fair to assume a similar piece as what you saw in the second quarter of the 600 million or could you actually get some acceleration in the case of repurchases in the coming quarters? Yeah, sure. The best way to think about it, Todd, is to think about...
to think about.
All right, thanks, Dan.
We'll take our next question from Ibrahim Poonawalla from Bank of America.
Good morning. Good morning.
I guess one of one to follow up on the NII guide for up 56%. Just wanted to make sure given all the moving pieces around the balance sheet, we have this right. It implies exit fourth quarter run rate north of 1.9 billion. Just want to make sure that that sounds reasonable in terms of how we think about what the jumping off point is for 2023. And if you don't mind reminding us, how much of course is accounting accretion you expect in the back half.
and maybe if you have an updated number for next year as well. Sure. So to answer your first question, the $1.9 billion run rate at the end of the year is a good number to use. You know, obviously I'll caveat that and keep in mind that that's based on the forward curve and lots of assumptions as we mentioned about deposit betas, but I think that's a reasonable number. And then
The second question, remind me again what that was, I'm sorry, I'm losing my mind already. Just in terms of how much of purchase I call new accretions here in the numbers for. Sorry, yes, purchase accounting. The number that you saw in the second quarter that we talked about the $35 million is a good start point. I mean, obviously over time that winds its way down. And so, you know, should think about 2023, think about four quarters of purchase accounting, accretion versus three this year.
But, you know, kind of the 30 to $35 million a quarter run rate is a good place to be there. So, you know, you're going to be there. So, you know, you're going to be there.
I guess this is a separate follow-up on the CRE side. You talked about in the past in terms of
Just thinking about how much to balance sheet versus not. And I think you had an announcement of some appointments within this year's business a couple of days ago. I would love to hear your updated thoughts. One, coming out of the stress test, any surprises, anything that you think you would tweak as a function of the stress test. And then just where are we in terms of the evolution of the new strategy around the year that you think about of that business?
Yeah, you know, I think the short answer is the path that we're on and our thought process around CRE hasn't changed. That we...
when we look at I guess a couple comments on a stress test we were pleased to see the decline in loss rates from the the pandemic stress test in CRE you know down to 11% from 16% you know however if you look at it even earlier stress tests they kind of averaged around 6 or 7 percent per CRE so it's still pretty elevated from that and you know when we look at our own performance over time in the CRE space
We can't get anywhere near that number. And what's really interesting is when you look over the last two years at the pandemic, that was pretty much a real life stress test on CRE, without much support from the government and the losses there were pretty minimal. And so when we think about our underwriting, we're really comfortable with the underwriting. And we think about our experience in the space. And we think we've got a really talented group of individuals that operate there.
And that we can use those skill sets to continue to support our customers and maybe use others' balance sheets who are actually looking for the kind of skill sets that we have an under-renic. And so there's a great match there where we can take advantage of our skill set, we can provide funding and capital for our customers and be there for them and maybe even offer them a broader range of alternatives and make it more capital efficient over time where we can convert some of those long balances and dollars into fee income which will free up capital.
And so, you know, the path that we've been on, we feel really good about. As you noted, we've added some folks. We added some folks in what we call our innovation office. We've also added a couple players in our CRE capital markets area of the bank. You'll probably hear a little bit more about that in the coming weeks. And we slowly start to build up a team and slowly increase the mix, or the percentage that ends up on balance sheet and off. Now, it's still not quite at a point where you can see it in the...
in the non-interesting income numbers, but that will build as we go through the rest of this year into 2023. And so, you know, I guess long-winded way of saying no change in the strategy, but hopefully some of that color helps give context to why we're on the path that we're on.
That's helpful. Thanks for being my good.
Our next question comes from Matt O'Connor from Deutsche Bank.
Good morning. Sorry about that.
Pretty explicit expense guidance this year and obviously cost saves coming in over the next several quarters. As we think about next year and kind of this underlying expense growth, given some of the puts and takes with inflation and there's always some kind of expense component tied to credit which might normalize a little bit. But just the bottom line is how do you think about kind of more medium term underlying expense growth?
Wow Matt, you're way ahead of me. We're still getting geared up to do our 2023 planning here. But once we get through, let's start with 2022 and the path that we're on, the guy that we gave was on a net operating basis. So it excludes the merger expenses and should start to give you an idea of what the run rate might look like as we exit 2022. What I would suggest to you is as we go through the system conversion, this third quarter.
That's a key moment in some of the final pieces of expense reduction. And so there will be systems, contracts, and decommissioning expenses that will go on and those don't happen immediately. Sometimes that takes a month or two. There will be folks that we will retain from the acquired institution that that can be systems conversion plus 30 days plus 60 plus 90. And so some of the expense sales will bleed a little bit into the fourth quarter and maybe slightly into the first.
But we should be getting towards the real run rate by the end of the first quarter should be pretty solid and it shouldn't be much different from where we exit the fourth.
You know, outside of that, when you get to our philosophy about expenses and the investments that we're making, you know, our history has always been to pay close attention to the efficiency ratio and the expenses, to make sure that the technology investments that we're making improve productivity, which provide an expense rate. And you know, historically, we've been in the kind of two to three percent growth rate and expenses that are normalized basis.
You know, it might be the higher end of that because of inflation. Sometimes you can end up at the lower end of that if you're as inflation zero, but you know, it's not something where we expect to see did single digits numbers like we've seen over the last couple of years. I think there's some extenuating circumstances that let us there, but over the long run, that's kind of how we expect to run the bank and we do it to achieve positive operating leverage or the longer run, and that's our goal.
Just following up on some of the capital questions, longer term, how much buffer do you want over the regulatory minimum? It's pretty clear you're hoping to drive down the regulatory minimum over time. Obviously, ending this year at 10.5 is a big buffer, but what's the thought on how much you'd want to hold over the regulatory minimum? Thank you.
Yeah, sure Matt. I mean, you know, when we look at our capital targets...
We've taken to account our own internal stress test analysis and losses under stress, as well as the insight we get from the C-Current of Stress Test.
And the thing to keep in mind with the SCB is every two years that number can change. And so we've got to be careful about setting the place we want our capital ratio to be based on any one year's test.
The other part that I think is important to keep in mind, especially with the test of the last couple years, is how the Fed models take into account balance sheet size and what that does for expense growth and PPNR and operational risk. And so within that stress capital buffer, there's credit losses and then there's these other factors that drive that up. And so those will also change as we go through time.
And so you think about the work that we're doing to deploy the cash and the securities, which will help in the next C-CAR, the work we're doing on construction, lending balances, and the impact that can have on loss rates and CRE, as well as just the reduction in CRE. Many of the factors and things that we're focused on will are intended to help reduce losses and keeping our negative impact in the stress test, which should help bring that capital buffer down over time.
And so the 10.5 that we talked about for this year is really as we enter into January of 2023, when we'll go through the stress test again, which normally that's an off year for a category four bank, but it'll be the first year we go through on a combined basis. Now, we actually think the people's portfolio was helpful to our losses under stress because their CRE portfolio is a little more skew towards permanent mortgages with tend to have a lower loss under stress.
And so that we also think will be helpful for the SCD next year. And so, we've always talked about operating at the low end of the peer range in the bottom quartile, the top end of the bottom quartile, in terms of CET-1 ratio, given our underwriting history and our loss history, we expect to move in that direction. But we wanna get through the end of the year and through that first test on a combined basis. And so that first test on a combined basis.
with some buffer and then continue to bring things down into the range that we talked about.
Okay, thank you.
Okay, thank you.
The next question comes from Gerard Cassidy from RBC Capital Markets.
Darren, party's right.
Just thinking with capital for a minute, obviously your stress capital buffer this year was extraordinarily high. It seemed to be the right number compared to your risk in your organization. I hope it's not any retribution to one of Bob's letters back in 2016 and the annual report about the regulars, but anyway, aside from that, can you share with us what strategies you may try to improve?
implement to show the regulators next year when you go through the stress exam, as you just pointed out, you know, how to bring that number down to a more reasonable level.
Yeah, sure, Dr. I guess just starting with the test, the thing to keep in mind is I think the stress tests were put in place by the Fed at a very unique time in the history of the country and some challenges that the banks were having and was put in place to give people confidence in the system and it's a good process. You know, it's never gonna be perfect and each year the Fed stresses certain.
Parts of the asset base. Based on what's going on in the country and in...
the last couple years it's been focused on commercial real estate. And so as an organization that has historically had a concentration in commercial real estate, when that's the focus, the pain is felt a little disproportionately at banks like M&T.
You know we as I mentioned earlier if we look at our history of underwriting and actual losses we're very comfortable with with the asset class, but it's clear that we're going to we can't operate with the size of portfolio relative to the peers that we have in the past and so that's why we talk about You know the work we're doing to to continue to support our customers You know which is the most important thing that we're going to be there for them but that we're we're going to think about different ways to
to do that. And so, you know, construction loans, they're construction portfolio, probably got a little big. And that will come down naturally, as we've talked about. And then, as we go forward, we'll look to move towards a slightly better balance of C and I and consumer loans, in addition to commercial real estate. And so that should help, overall, in the test, just because construction loans are one of the higher-loss categories. And so that's where we're going to look at the other of the business. And so that's where we're going to look at the other of the business.
You know, what part of the portfolio could be stressed next year? It could be something else. It could be CNI or it could be mortgage and that will lead to a different outcome.
The other thing though that I think is important to keep in mind is as quantitative tightening happens and deposits come out of the system, that's going to reduce balance sheets. Reduced balance sheets will reduce that expense growth that I mentioned earlier in the test and will reduce operational losses and those will also have the effect of reducing the revenue.
the size of the SCB and for M&T in particular, keep in mind that when we went through the test this year, we had the highest level of cash on our balance sheet of anyone in the system. And in the test,
The cash value at the Fed, because the test always drops Fed funds to zero, produces zero that interesting.
And so you have the benefit of the earning assets driving the expense, but not the benefit of any income that comes with them. And so as we see those balances shrink and we start to invest a little bit more in securities and those fixed rate securities, that will help generate a little bit more PPR over through the test. And so all of these things are pieces of the puzzle and actions that we're taking to help improve that capital buffer.
and bring it down, you know, closer to where we all might expect it to be. And it'll take time, but we're on a path. We've talked about the path we're on to bring down the capital ratios while maintaining an appropriate cushion to where the SCB suggests we need to be. And we'll continue to work on the balance sheet to help drive that SCB number down, which will continue to give us the opportunity to...
Generate capital, invest in growth in the franchise, and if not, distribute it to shareholders in a friendly way. Very good. Thank you for the throw. And as a follow-up question, on credit, obviously, your credit metrics on NIT Charger Officer through the cycle amongst the best, if not the best, the regionals. The equity markets have seemed to discounting the bank stocks and anticipation of rising credit losses and problems.
coming from the tightening policies that were said. Can you share with us, are you guys seeing any evidence yet of early stage development, when city is starting to creep up in certain parts of your franchise or certain product types that there is some weakness that are developing, or is it no, it's still, you know, clear or clear and maybe it's something next year that we have to anticipate.
tightening policies that were said. Can you share with us, are you guys seeing any evidence yet of early stage development, when city is starting to creep up in certain parts of your franchise or certain product times that there is some weakness that are developing, or is it no, it's still, you know, clear, all clear, and maybe it's something next year that we have to anticipate.
When we look at credit, if I look at the various portfolios, I start with the consumer portfolios. What is your delinquency, whether it's in mortgage, indirect auto, REC-FI, credit card, home equity?
Delinquency rates.
The frequency rates still are below pre-pandemic levels.
And when I look at the M and T portfolio in particular, we've never been a place that does subprime and the percentage of near prime customers is also very low. And the last thing we see across all of those portfolios is LTVs are also at lows, with the increase in value of automobiles as well as home price inflation over the last couple of years. LTVs are very low. And so so far not a lot of the link with Z and good collateral coverage.
And so nothing that we're seeing, you know, is signs in that in those port-full rooms.
within the CDI and CRE space.
It's nuanced and it's a function of NCNI.
What's happening with input costs for CNI customers? How? How? How?
strong is their ability to pass on price increases to their end customer. And so we've seen some instances where we've moved some credits onto our watch list where input costs have risen faster than pricing and that's led to some decreases in debt service coverage. And so we've moved some people onto our watch list. You know within the real estate portfolio.
What's interesting is it's a bit of a remixing. And so we've seen a real strong improvement in hotel, analyze, we're seeing people travel again, in fact, in one of the things that are expensive, I could see our travel and entertainment expense was up as an organization. I think that's a true statement for many organizations across the country, which is a positive sign for our urban hotel portfolio. And we're seeing that in the numbers. And so with those, those get better. We're seeing some stills continue to see some challenges in the hotel.
So we're seeing no improved performance in retail and hotel within the real estate space and still some challenges in the healthcare and office space. And so not really a change in aggregate but a shift in where our focus is.
You know, so I wouldn't give the all clear signal. That would be very un-MNT like we're always worried in looking for where the next issue could be. But there's nothing that's flashing red right now that says that there's a big crisis coming in the next several quarters. In the next several quarters.
Daren, in the C9 portfolio, is there much leverage finance? Obviously, spreads have widened in that category in particular. We have leverage finance in there, but it's a small percentage of the portfolio. I think on a combined basis, it's called in the $2 billion of outstanding, maybe $3 billion of commitments, maybe two and a half.
to three and a half in that space, which given the size of the bank now is a pretty small percentage of our total assets. When we look at what the grading on those is, still pretty strong even with rates where they are. Great. Thank you so much.
And as a reminder that's star and one to ask a question. We'll take our next question from Erica Najarian from UBS. The unanimous vote is set and the Stephanie Diabloqua, session until Dennis B Leader.
Hi, I'm just going to follow up for me. You know, you, you, you, it's actually a follow up to the first question. You're expecting some decline. It sounds like in your four accounts given inflationary pressures. And what's interesting is pretty much all of your peers have talked about rowing deposits from second quarter levels. I guess it's a two part question of a line. I guess it's a two part question of a line.
How much more in search deposits do you have left? I guess I'm trying to figure out how conservative the underlying deposit birth assumptions are under me that 56% died from the eye. I'm trying to figure out how conservative the underlying deposit died from the eye.
Yeah, and I guess as you look through the deposit portfolio, you know, go back to the comments from before, the bulk of our deposit base are what we refer to as operational accounts. And so, you know, it's where our business banking customers, our commercial customers and our consumers are running their daily lives from those accounts.
There are search balances in there. We're not seeing them run out really in a dramatic pace. The reason we kind of went through the painstaking task of explaining all the deposit changes was to get to this point that we're not seeing dramatic runoff in our core accounts.
You know, there is a challenge that we see for many of our consumers where the pace of inflation is running faster than the pace of wage growth, but they still have lots of deposits, you know, from the various stimulus programs and things that happen during the crisis. And so we believe that those balances will come down gradually. And they will come down gradually.
And really the question on deposit decline is, for customers who have excess balances beyond what they can use. For customers who have excess balances beyond what they can use.
Some will get deployed to pay down debt, like we talked about with some of our commercial customers using some cash to pay down loans. And then the other thing will be how many folks will look for a rate for excess balances and given our excess liquidity position, relative to the peers, how much do we wanna pay up and for what types of customers? And so what we tend to do is we look at the depth of the relationship. And if you have a broader relationship with the bank.
We would be willing to do more for you on your loan pricing or on your deposit pricing and if you're a single service time account looking for a rate given the excess liquidity we probably won't match some of the rates that are out there and a similar thing would be true on the commercial side. So it's really a function I think, Erica, of the difference between the level of our cash position and the percentage of our balance sheet that sits in cash versus the peers that might cause that difference. But we're not anticipating by any stretch any rapid depletion.
of those core accounts. I understand. So just to interpret that, Darian, making sure I'm thinking about it correctly, you have so much cash that your sensitivity is greater for those that are seeking higher yield. Is that a good way to think about it?
Yeah, I guess I would say we will be relationship oriented and total relationship focused on the places where we will give rate for people that are seeking it. And that will keep those balances on our balance sheet. And for folks that are just kind of what I would describe as renting our balance sheet, we'll be a little bit less sensitive and those balances could well run off. And then we're in the fortunate position of being able to have that selectivity because of the excess cash that we have.
Thank you. Our next question comes from Frank from Paper Seamless.
Morning, Darren. Good morning. Good morning.
Just wondering, I hate to be the dead horse on the Capitol on the stress test side, but even if you set aside the relatively larger pre-bounces, it looks like M&T's assumed loan losses in the severely adverse scenarios, basically higher than the median, almost across categories, despite what you point to it and what is obviously a stronger credit history overall.
Just wondering if you've been able to gather any more color on is it a regional thing? What the fact is sort of thinking that makes their loss assumption so much more punitive than you guys would assume. Then you guys will assume. And then you guys will assume. And then you guys will assume.
Yeah, you know, Frank, when you look under the hood, you know, the most important thing to remember is there's no loss rate applied to any M and T portfolio by the Fed. It's different from what they applied to anyone else with a similar portfolio. It's different from what they applied to anyone else with a similar portfolio.
right, and so all of this is a function of mix. And what I think the Fed found, if I remember this correctly, over the course of the last couple years, and the difference between the pandemic test where the results came out in December 2020 versus this most recent one, was that the loss rates that were being assumed in some categories, notably hotel and retail, was nuanced. And in the first test it was a little bit more blunt that there was more trauma in that whole sector.
and that would lead to much lower asset values. And so you couldn't rely on the collateral. In this last test, what I think defended was they were more nuanced and they could see that... that they were more nuanced and they could see that...
suburban hotels, ones that you could drive to resort oriented hotel properties had seen increases in occupancy as people started to travel again and that led to better asset values and collateral values under stress. And where they tended to apply more was in the urban areas where it was still, we still hadn't seen the recovery in business travel and conventions and you know weddings in those large properties.
And so the loss rates were applied there. And when you look at MIT and some of our real estate portfolio, particularly in the hotel, we obviously have New York City. We had some in Boston, some in Philadelphia and Washington. And so those properties of MIT would have faced a little bit more stress and that would help lead to that higher loss rate. Shot number.
And that seemed to be the place, I think there was still a little bit of stress on retail and some beginning on on on office. I think they were looking a little bit more, with a little bit more scrutiny at, you know, we consider B and C grade office buildings and apply a little bit tougher test to to the asset values in those categories. You know, it's narrow and things like that made everySimon larger. I think that for those people not, you know, I always going to say B, B, E, D, D they had different actions like 50 active duty and things like that. Again I think it's a very, much harder focus and a little bit Harder focus as special take 2 to the
I think there was still a little bit of stress on retail and some beginning on office. I think they were looking a little bit more, with a little bit more scrutiny at, you know, what we consider B and C grade office buildings and applied a little bit tougher test to the asset values in those categories. You know, it's...
it gives us more insight into how the Fed thinks about things, gives us more questions for us to think about in how we consider those property types. You know, but again, to me the positive is when you look at even with those loss rates and our capital levels, we were still about 300 basis points above the minimum under that stress and with the other comments I made about impact of PP&R. And so...
You know, when we look at the capital ratios of the bank and where we sit, we feel really good. And the Fed just helped us confirm that we can withstand a pretty severe downturn in some of these asset classes and still be a great shape. And so, you know, we continue to learn through the process and make the adjustments that we talked about before to the balance sheet to be as capital efficient as we can be.
Great, thanks for all the call. That's all I have. Once again, that is star and one if you'd like to ask a question.
Any of the peers we have no further questions at this time. I will now turn the program back over to our speakers.
All right, thank you. And again, thank you all for participating today. And as always, if any clarification of any items on the call, or new release is necessary, please contact our Invest Relations Department at area code 716-842-5138. Good night.
This does conclude today's program. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect. Have a great day.
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