Q4 2022 Kopin Corp Earnings Call
Speaker 1: And.
Speaker 1: The.
Speaker 1: C.
Speaker 2: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Kopen Corporation fourth quarter and full year 2022 earnings call. Please note that this event is being recorded. At this time, I'd like to turn the conference call over to Brian Prenova, Investor Relations for Kopen. Please go ahead. Brian Prenova, Investor Relations for Kopen, is a member of the Kopen Corporation.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Paul. Good morning, everyone. Before we get started, I'd like to remind everyone that today's call taking place on Tuesday, March 14th, 2023, we will be making forward-looking statements as defined in the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995.
Speaker 2: These statements are based on the company's current expectations, projections, beliefs, and estimates, and are subject to a number of risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from those forward-looking statements. Actual risks include, but are not limited to, demand for our products, and the
Speaker 2: operating results of our subsidiaries, market conditions, and other factors discussed in our most recent annual report on Form 10-K and other documents filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Speaker 2: Although the company believes that the assumptions underlying these statements are reasonable, any of them can be proven inaccurate and there can be no assurances that the results will be realized. The company undertakes no obligation to update the forward-looking statements made during today's call. In addition, references may be made to certain non-generally accepted accounting principles or non-GAAP measures.
Speaker 2: for which you should refer to the appropriate disclaimers and reconciliation in the company's SEC filings and press releases.
Speaker 2: Copen Corporation's Chief Executive Officer, Michael Murray, will begin today's call with an overview of Copen's progress within the company's strategy. Following Michael, Copen CFO Richard Schneider will review the company's fourth quarter and full year returns. I would now like to turn the conference call over to Michael Murray. Michael?
Speaker 3: Thank you very much, Brian , and to all the folks at MZ Group. Welcome to the Co-op and Family. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to our fourth quarter earnings call. I'm in Asia at the moment, so I hope my line is clear. I've been having some technical difficulties from time to time. But...
Speaker 3: a little more background information on what Copin does and how we plan to do it.
Speaker 3: For anyone who is less familiar with COPIN, we are a leading provider of specialized solutions combining advanced microdisplay and optical technologies.
Speaker 3: We use proprietary technologies to create augmented and virtual reality products for use in defense, commercial and consumer applications.
Speaker 3: As the field of optics continues to expand, the real-world application of micro displays continues to broaden and new industries are discovering ways to use these technologies constantly and consecutively.
Speaker 3: Two years ago, the market was estimated to be about $1.6 billion in size. It is expected to grow to over $5 billion by 2027, a 20% annual growth rate, roughly over 2.3 billion, to invested Claim.
Speaker 3: We believe our company is well positioned to take advantage of this large and quickly growing market.
Speaker 3: For over 30 years, Copenhagen scientists and engineers have created innovative technologies that have enhanced the way people see, hear, and communicate.
Speaker 3: for me to join COPEN.
Speaker 3: While the company's restructuring initiatives continue apace with our renewed focus on quality and operational excellence, preserving that culture of innovation remains paramount to us capturing more of this exciting and growing market.
Speaker 3: Today, COPEN's revenue largely comes from defense-oriented customers and projects with additional revenue from commercial and consumer product customers.
Speaker 3: I'll now provide a high-level recap of the quarter and the year before turning the call over to Rich to dive deeper into the financial results.
Speaker 3: This year, COVID turned into a solid 2022 despite the supply chain issues and lingering COVID issues we discussed in previous calls.
Speaker 3: We are cautiously optimistic that we are now positioned to mitigate the supply chain challenges we've been faced throughout the year. While supply chain challenges still are prevalent, we're hoping that they'll become part of the past.
Speaker 3: We continue to see intermittent quality challenges, which we have plans to resolve through product redesign, adjusted inventory levels, new equipment, and increased focus on quality and reduced scrap. Revenues for the year were up 3.8% year-over-year, completing the company's fourth consecutive year of growth. The bulk of the revenue increase came from the defense sector sales.
Speaker 3: Sales and defense ended the year up 36% year over year, driven by higher shipments within the weapons site programs of our top customers. The defense revenue increase was offset somewhat by decrease in demand.
Speaker 3: with our industrial channel due to an over inventory position with their customer base. As we saw reduced orders for spatial light modulators which are used in our 3D AOI machines and industrial wearables.
Speaker 3: As I mentioned in our last call, our focus will be driving yield improvements and achieving on-time and full deliveries while seeking opportunities to reduce costs.
Speaker 3: I wanted to discuss some of the strategic initiatives we here at Copen are focused on to improve margins, cash flows, customer experience, and ultimately return to our shareholders.
Speaker 3: Our first focus is increasing our order book for application specific solutions. Now, when I speak of application specific solutions, I refer to integrated products that accomplish a particular task.
Speaker 3: An example is our International Family of Weapons Site long range device.
Speaker 3: whose full rate production was announced in the third quarter. And this is IWSILR.
Speaker 3: We produce the entire weapon site eyepiece, not just the screen slash optical components. Building an order book of similar high-level value-added products that ultimately result in higher order amounts, increased customer partnership, reorder reliability, and better margins. Next.
Speaker 3: improving and achieving on-time and full deliveries. Customers should expect their orders to be received on-time and in full at 100% quality.
Speaker 3: In a supply chain constrained environment like the one we operate in, achieving on-time and full delivery is difficult.
Speaker 3: Towards achieving this goal, we're investing in data-driven analysis and advanced manufacturing equipment to automate and improve our performance to ensure demand is met with supply.
Speaker 3: If there are any delays, we are performing a sense of root cause analysis to ensure that the nature of those delays is understood and effectively acted upon immediately.
Speaker 3: We are pleased to say that we have shipped our AMLCD product to Collins at 100% on time in full for 2022, a great achievement for the team, and our folks at FTD Scotland have recently achieved the same level with their 3D AOI customer base. Cost and cash discipline will be a particular point of focus. To this end, we have initiated several projects to reduce OPEX.
Speaker 3: In addition, all businesses and technology programs are being evaluated against our new financial models and corrective actions are being taken.
Speaker 3: These tough decisions taken in Q1 of 2023 will be evident and ripple through our Q1 and the rest of 2023 financial results.
Speaker 3: Q1 of 2023 will be evident and ripple through our Q1 and the rest of 2023 financial results. Q4 of 2023 will be evident and ripple through our Q1 and the rest of 2023 financial results.
Speaker 3: We're looking to derive yield improvements.
Speaker 3: Yield improvements will be accomplished merely by focusing on quality, improving our rate of material to unit conversion and building efficiencies into the fab.
Speaker 3: increasing quality and ultimately reducing costs, improved margins, and on-time delivery.
Speaker 3: As part of our quality review in Q4, it was determined that we needed to improve our internal processes, automation, clean room, cleanliness.
Speaker 3: through additional investment, which was the catalyst for our capital raise in Q1 of this year.
Speaker 3: Last, and certainly not least, is our efforts to ensure R&D is aligned with our strategic plan. Return on investment on funded R&D will face increased scrutiny to ensure unprofitable projects are avoided and profitable projects are pursued and prioritized.
Speaker 3: Additionally, our focus on internal research and development should be toward value-added application-specific projects and disruptive leading-edge technologies and capabilities developed with our customers.
Speaker 3: As an example, our fully integrated surgical head-mounted display is progressing well and attracting significant interest in the healthcare market.
Speaker 3: We've also made significant progress recently on our micro LED programs, which we will provide technical updates throughout the year.
Speaker 3: We believe this is transformative technology which will be able to not only unlock fully integrated day and night time AR VR applications.
Speaker 3: Now, during our recent restructuring, we separated the business development and program management disciplines and added more resources to both in order to grow our order pipeline and manage several significant programs moving from R&D and qualification to low-rate initial production through this year and next year. Let me now take a moment to update.
Speaker 3: All of you want a couple of our key development programs. As we announced last week, we expect our F-35 OLED program to enter full rate production qualification shortly.
Speaker 3: As a reminder, and this is very important, our backplane was designed here in the United States to be able to be deposited upon on a standard silicon wafer OLED deposition.
Speaker 3: Therefore, we can utilize many different OLED deposition vendors in China, the United States, and in Europe depending on the cost and performance of the vendor.
Speaker 3: and most importantly, the cost and performance requirements of the customer application.
Speaker 3: This allows for and supports a continuity and security supply which satisfies the U.S. government regulations.
Speaker 3: We have also made significant progress on our ABRAM Step 4 upgrade and expect to move that program into final PPAP qualification shortly. PPAP is an Automotive Readiness Qualification standard. This is the last step before production and a significant step and solidification for COPIN.
Speaker 3: since we believe this program could be one of the largest revenue contributions for the company in the future years.
Speaker 3: Furthermore, it provides Copeland with the pedigree and the proof points to enter into further mobile defense and automotive applications. We are excited and hopeful to announce this in the final phase of the program very shortly.
Speaker 3: I'll now turn the call over to our CFO , Rich Snyder, to review our results in further detail. Rich. Hi, I'm Rich Snyder.
Speaker 3: CFO Rich Snyder to review our results in further detail. Rich. Thank you, Michael.
Speaker 4: Turning to our financial results, total revenues for Q4 2022 were $12.2 million versus $13.2 million for the prior year, an overall 8% decrease year over year.
Speaker 4: Product revenues for the fourth quarter ended December 31, 2022, were $8.7 million, compared with $8.8 million for the fourth quarter ended December 25, 2021, essentially flat.
Speaker 4: Defense product revenues increased $1.2 million, or 19.6 percent year over year, while industrial product revenues decreased approximately $1.1 million, or 46 percent year over year. Funded research and development revenues were $3.3 million for the fourth quarter of 2022, while the market was $4.3 million for the fourth quarter of 2021.
Speaker 4: a 24% decline. The decline in our funded research development programs is to our funded R&D program is maturing and entering to low rate initial production or L-RIP.
Speaker 4: Cost of goods sold for the fourth quarter of 2022 was 8.9 million or 103% of product revenues compared with 7.5 million or 85% for the fourth quarter of last year.
Speaker 4: The increase in cost of product revenues as a percentage of net product revenues for the three months ended December 31, 2022, as compared to the prior year, was primarily due to lower absorption of costs as we reduced production to make changes in the manufacturing of products and additional material costs. R&D expenses in the fourth quarter of 2022 were $4.7 million compared with $5.2 million for the first quarter.
Speaker 4: 4.1 million in the fourth quarter of 2021.
Speaker 4: The SG&A increase for the three months ended December 31, 2022, as compared to the prior year, was primarily due to an increase in compensation and professional fees, which were partially offset by lower stock-based compensation costs. Turning to the bottom line, the net loss attributed to Copen for the fourth quarter was approximately $6.2 million, or $0.07 per share.
Speaker 4: compared with $3.3 million or $0.04 per share for the fourth quarter of 2021.
Speaker 4: or four cents per share for the fourth quarter of 2021. Now turning to the full year results.
Speaker 4: Total revenues for 2022 were $47.4 million compared with $45.7 million, a 4% increase. The 2022 revenue increase as compared to 2021 was driven by an increase in defense revenues of $6.6 million, or 36%, which was partially offset by a decline in industrial enterprise revenues.
Speaker 4: of $3.6 million, or 37%, and consumer and other revenues, which declined approximately 500,000, or 24%.
Speaker 4: Cost of product revenues as a percentage of net product revenues for 2022 and 2021 were 100% and 84% respectively. Cost of product revenues increased as a percentage in 2022 as compared to 2021 primarily due to excess material costs and inefficiencies caused by supply chain disruptions.
Speaker 4: R&D expense in 2022 was $18.7 million, a 15% increase compared to the $16.3 million in 2021. R&D expense in 2022 was $18.7 million, a 15% increase compared to the $16.3 million in 2021.
Speaker 4: Funded R&D expenses were $10.3 million for 2022 as compared to $10 million for 2021.
Speaker 4: a 3% increase.
Speaker 4: Internal R&D expense was approximately $8.4 million for 2022 as compared to $6.3 million for 2021, a 33% increase.
Speaker 4: Internal R&D expenses for 2022 increase as compared to the prior year primarily due to increased OLED development costs.
Speaker 4: With the spinoff of OLED activities for consumer markets to the Lightning Silicon, we expect internal R&D expenses to decrease in 2023.
Speaker 4: SG&A expenses were $18 million in 2022 compared to $18.1 million for 2021, essentially flat.
Speaker 4: SG&A expenses for 2022 had increases as compared to 2021 in professional and compensation costs, which were partially offset by lower stock-based compensation costs.
Other income for fiscal 2022 and 2021.
were income of $2.6 million and $436, respectively.
In 2022, we recorded a write-up of an investment of $4.7 million and an impairment write-down of $2.2 million in another investment.
Other income for fiscal 22 included 323,000 foreign currency losses compared to 139 of foreign currency gains recorded in fiscal 21.
Turning to our bottom line, net loss for controlling interest for the fiscal year ended December 31, 2022, with $19.3 million, or 21 cents per share, versus a net loss of $13.4 million, or 15 cents per share for 21.
10% customers for 2022 were DRS Network and Imaging at 40% and Collins Aerospace at 28%. Copeland's cash and equivalents and market securities were approximately $12.6 million at December 31, 2022.
Subsequent to the year end, we raised capital where we sold 17 million shares of open stock and issued pre-funded warrants for another 6 million shares.
The net proceeds were approximately $21.5 million.
We have no long-term debt. The amounts discussed above are based on our current estimates and listeners should review our Form 10-K for the year-end of December 31, 2022 for any possible changes.
and of course any additional filings. And with that I'll turn the call back over to Michael.
And with that, I'll turn the call back over to Michael. Thanks, Rich.
I'm really pleased with the progress we're making as a company and as an organization. The partial spinout of our OLED development unit aligns with our intention to focus on long-term, sustainable and profitable growth, while we remain able to support our customers with a full portfolio.
of 8-inch OLED devices and access to 12-inch devices in the future. Our FL costs remain competitive in the 3D AOI market. It's finding its way into new applications like the Abrams tank program.
Our AMLCD product remains in demand for the foreseeable future while our micro LED product line is becoming a reality and offers exceptional revenue potential for this company in all of our markets.
These initiatives, along with our secondary equity offering in January , where we raised $21.5 million, will serve to improve our quality, provide financial flexibility over the near term and drive coping into the future.
With regards to 2023, our focus is in strengthening our order book, achieving higher on-time and full and cost controls, which in the aggregate will improve cash flow and get us to profitability.
The partial spinout of the OLED team and our recent reductions in force, along with a number of new internal processes, are our first step and we'll keep you updated as we progress through 2023.
I'd like to thank everyone for your time today and for showing interest in coping. I'd like to thank our employees, our stakeholders, and all their hard work and dedication.
Indeed, embarking on new strategic directions is never easy, but I'm really proud of the team we have here at COPEN. With their continued work, persistence, and patience, I think we can achieve great things and grow the business to new heights, and we're truly excited about the future. So with that, operator, I'll turn it over to you and take some questions. Thank you. I'm conducting a question and answer session.
If you would like to ask a question, please press star 1 on your telephone keypad. A confirmation tone will indicate your line is in the question queue. You may press star 2 if you'd like to remove your question from the queue. For participants using speaker equipment, it may be necessary to pick up your handset before pressing the star key.
One moment please while we pull for questions. Thank you. Our first question is from Glenn Mattson with Lattenberg Sound. Please proceed with your question.
Hi, thanks for taking the questions. So I'm curious, Mike, you laid out a lot of moving parts around the...
cost cuts and the different changes to the model between the workforce reduction and the kind of plans for for better kind of on-time deliveries and all that stuff. So if you kind of boil it all together, can you just kind of lay out a sense for what the margin profiles should look like, you know, kind of the
how long it's going to take to get to where you think you should be, and what the ultimate goal will be for where you tend to get to.
Sure. Thanks, Glenn.
Sure. Thanks, Ron.
Q1, I'll start there, is really the kitchen sink. We put in a lot of effort and a lot of pace into changing Q1. I did that intentionally, firstly, because I felt like there was no time to waste, number one. Number two, the cost cutting that we needed to put in place was there. I could see it. There was no risk to it.
albeit unfortunate, no one likes to reduce force. But that was done mindfully with the thought process around reducing our costs not just for cost of goods sold so we have a program in terms of looking at our cost base from our supplier set, our quality base from our supplier set.
as well as our resales, meaning we're working with our customers actively to look at our contracts that are underperforming and negotiate those contracts again for higher resales if possible. So all of those things are going on all at once. So it provides a little bit less certainty into Q1.
But we'll see those costs reductions, those improvements in our on-time in full into Q2. So we're very much looking forward to Q2 and Q3 from a cost perspective. So where we want to be over the course of the next, I'd say, two quarters is improving our margin base by 5 to 10 percent.
That's an aggressive, aggressive goal for us based on the business that we're in. But I think if you look at where we'll be at the end of Q1 after the LS spinout of the partial spinout of the OLED team, the reduction in force, we put a lot of pressure on our supply chain to reduce costs. We're negotiating contracts that are not beneficial for Copin, neither exiting them.
or increase in price and we have had some successes in some of our smaller account base with that. So probably too early to tell or too early to claim any victories, but I think we're on the right track.
Great, that's very helpful. I'm curious, you laid out a lot on the defense side. Can you talk about maybe the industrial, the AOI stuff, maybe with the pace of that kind of cycle looks like number one? And then on the consumer, I'm sorry, I'm on the, I'm like the head mounted display side.
You know, there was talk of a glut of products in 2022. Do you expect that market to bounce back in 2023? Thanks.
Sorry, I missed that last part. Can you repeat it?
On the head mounted display, things like your partners with RealWear and people like that, there was talk about the product in 2022, is that you expect to bounce back this year.
So, let's start with 3D AOI. We actually expected this year to be somewhat flat to down in 3D AOI just because of the semiconductor cyclicality that goes along with it. However, we've been increasing pace of orders. The last I checked, which was last week, we have 70% order cover.
for the 3D AOI business out of Scotland and the FTD folks. So that's a good place to be for this year. Excuse me.
I do expect that we'll see increases in order rates for 3D AOI later on this year. So we have a good opportunity to actually grow in that business. It's very cyclical, but I do feel comfortable now that we're sitting at around a 70% order rate.
for this year to say that business will be flat to slightly up. I think we're being a little too pessimistic thinking that that market won't come back this year. So that's number one. Number two, on the industrial side of things, in speaking with the CEOs of those customers specifically.
They're seeing that over-inventory position abate. They're starting to get bigger quotes or requests for quotes or at least requests for information for larger quotes. So customers that were buying one, two, or 10 devices are now looking for quotes for 20 to 50, which is always a good trend showing that their adoption rate is increasing.
So we do expect to see some new products into 2022 in that marketplace, number one. And number two, we think that that business will start to come back now that they're properly allocated in terms of inventories.
I think that's it for me for now. I'll jump back in the queue. Thanks. Thanks, Gaurav.
Okay, great. I think that's it for me for now. I'll jump back in the queue. Thanks. Thanks, Kuan.
Our next question is from Kevin with HC Wainwright. Please proceed with your question. Good morning, Michael, Rich. Thanks for taking me on the call here.
Michael, can you start just kind of rolling through where you are in manufacturing, and maybe a little more detail with regard to the OLED spin, where that puts you in a backplane production point, and...
just sort of review your OLED deposition options so we fully understand the government requirements to meet the F-35 contract.
Sure. So, from a new reconstruction perspective. I know that's a, I apologize, it's a lot, but I think it's critically important to understand those details in light of your restructuring.
No, absolutely. I think it's a great question. I'll only cover what I know from what we're doing at COPIN and I can answer the question this way. Our AMLCD continues to support the mission of our customer.
and the customers funded the research and development to develop the OLED display, which is unique in its level of performance for that customer and for that application. So to say it very plainly, the customer paid us to develop a very unique high performance OLED device.
As you know, we do utilize a partner in China for the deposition currently.
Obviously, this is the most important part since our backplane is based on a silicon wafer-based process. We can deposit on that backplane, which was designed in the United States.
built in Taiwan, not China, as someone mentioned. It's actually built in Taiwan. We can deposit
on that backplane with multiple vendors here in the United States, in Canada, the UK, Germany, and France. So from a standpoint of supporting security of supply, we're actually very secure to supply that end application with that specific customer because
our design of the backplane is ubiquitous across anyone doing silicon wafer based processing and deposition of OLED. So that's why we feel very confident and comfortable with our current supply chain. I believe the customer feels confident and comfortable with that supply chain as well.
Now put that aside for a second. When we think about OLED specifically, we still have a full suite of OLED developed displays that we can sell into any application. That transition with LS was really done with a mindset of let's sell what we have as a strategy, meaning let's sell all the eight inch wafer material that we have. We have a full suite of OLED devices that we can support our customers with.
But the bridge to get to 12 inch wafers that 30 to 40 million dollars of investment was just a bridge too far For coping at this point in time. So the next best solution Which we came to was let's spin it out. Let's make sure there's bilateral use of that IP and That way we can support our customers at Copen with 12 inch material if and when they do
for multiple fab-like strategies, and I mentioned this in our previous call, this is part of it where we can go to different fabs and deposit OLED or other technologies like micro LED and how those technologies be built in different centers for security supply.
Okay, can we take a step back and look at the AM LCD manufacturer? How are you set up there? Everything look worse when we look at it, but it's not as warnings are all about speed
You know vis-a-vis the press release in early January and the you know is an indication of and Glenn's question too like where are you
the process of refining your manufacturing and streamlining it and restructuring.
So I started in Q4.
We've done a number of reviews of our internal AMLCD manufacturing processes and specific to the clean room itself. We found some areas that we wanted to improve which I hadn't foreseen actually in the first little while that I've been at Copen.
That was the major impetus for our raise that we accomplished in Q1 of this year and the raise was driven by some CAPEX that we're going to be requiring for the fab.
And more specifically, that CAPEX is going into the areas where we're able to build application-specific optical display assemblies. So that's really the marriage between the display and the optics itself. And that's where we need to be very critical on how we manufacture these assemblies, because we can have things like particles that get in between the display and the lenses.
So those particles basically create a display that isn't usable. So that's the area that we'll be investing in this year. And we've got a plan to make those capital equipment investments that will improve our overall quality from the display itself, but also, and more importantly in my mind, the overall application solution.
So that's the entire assembly, not just the display. Okay, and apologies for rehashing this one, Michael, but where do you think you are in that process? Is this the fab that's in Massachusetts? And when do you think you'll be fully ship-shaped there? Also, the
The issue that we're having is the lead time of the equipment itself. So we're looking at Q3 this year is when I think where we'll be fully optimized and where I want to be in terms of the level of quality that I expect out of the FAB. And certainly the new equipment will be installed at that point. We should start seeing benefit from that. Now that doesn't mean that we go from that there's no improvement that we can make between now and then.
There's a lot of processes that we put in place, Kevin, like just the overall human process of gowning, etc., and protocols. So that process is ongoing along with a lot of education. So we've embarked upon that in Q1. It seems to be improving. By the way, you know, our on-time and full on some of these programs has increased.
I think when I started we were running around 63% on time and full with one of the major programs and we hit 89% sustainably over the course of this quarter. So that's a digital step up in our quality improvement processes and like I said earlier the other facilities are doing quite well and the AMLCD for Collins
hit 100% on time in full all of last year. So it's not all bad, it's just that going into this application specific solution space, we absolutely have to improve our processes, our protocols, and some of our equipment. So I'd say Q3 of this year we should be tip top. Okay, you offered Glenn the target of 5% margin.
I'm wondering is that a growth? Yeah oh five percent improvement right sorry apologies yeah that's that's led by the comment I apologize question so
Is that a gross margin improvement Michael or an operating margin improvement? That would be a gross margin improvement so we're targeting five to ten percent. Yeah and that really comes from you know operating the two levers. The two levers are our costs, the cost of goods sold, so the cost coming into the building and also the quality of those materials coming into the building.
Then also working with our customers in terms of making sure that we either have the right price or have raised prices to make sure that we're covering our costs from the standpoint of inflation.
customers in terms of making sure that we either have the right price or have raised prices to make sure that we're covering our costs from the standpoint of inflation.
A bunch of questions, but I think probably the best one to ask is maybe drilling in a little deeper on your view of the supply chain and the improvement you're seeing and where you think it can go.
and in sort of what time frame? Yeah, great question. So we brought on some new talent in the procurement business, side of the business I should say, and also a new individual by the name of Ray who joins us from Raytheon as our quality director. And they're actively working with suppliers right now to make sure that we're getting.
Our material on time and full, and we've got a better incoming inspection. Quality inspection that is so we've already embarked upon this and they've got a clear mandate to reduce costs into the building and work with a supply chain set. It's more approved. Than I'd say sporadic. So.
So that works ongoing. We've had some successes already with that team. So we're starting to track it now, but we don't have any data to share just yet.
Okay, when you step back and you look at the industry overall though, Michael, what.
I mean, given pandemic disruptions now.
still sort of rippling through things.
How do you think the overall industry has changed?
Well, I think folks have started to realize that you need to be used.
more aligned with your vendor base. And that's on both sides. So when working with our customer base,
I've been very impressed and humbled, quite frankly, in how much our top customers want to work with Copen and make sure that we're healthy, happy, and a great supplier for them. And when I say healthy, that means financially, as well as making sure that we get what we need from them.
These are excellent customers. I think they're the best in the world. So they've learned, and just like we're learning, that we need to keep our vendor base very close to us, treat them well, make sure they understand what our desires are for the year in terms of research and development. So bringing them closer to us is helpful. Not kind of the old school way of...
keeping your vendors away from you and telling them what you need and not necessarily collaborating with them. So we've taken a different approach and it seems to be so far working well for us. And it's the same approach that we do and use with our customers, which is to work with them to make sure that we're developing the right technologies for their roadmap.
that I've seen, Lisa Copeland, from an industry perspective.
I think firms are still finding a war on talent. And what I mean by that, Kevin, is it's really hard to hire. Even though firms like ours are reducing force and you see it every day, finding great talent is still really hard.
So I think that's the biggest change in the industry that I've seen. Folks just don't want to go back to work. And if they do, they don't want to come into an office. We've been very fortunate so far. I think we're in a great place because of where we are and who we are. But I see other companies really struggling. Okay, last question. I'm not satisfied with your question.
Oh, yeah, yeah, no, that's great insight. Thank you. Michael. Appreciate the time. Rich, it looks like with 12 and a half roughly at the end of the year and 21 and a half raised, you're at roughly 34. is that fair?
Yeah, no, that's great insight. Thank you. Michael. Appreciate the time. Rich. It looks like with 12 and a half roughly at the end of the year and 21 and a half raised. You're at roughly 34. is that fair? 30 ish. Yeah.
30-ish, okay. Appreciate it. Thank you very much for entertaining me, gentlemen. I hope that you get over that cough, Michael. Well, thank you, I apologize. I'm a little under the weather if you can. Thank you. Thank you, there are no further questions at this time.
I'd like to hand the floor back over to Michael Murray for any closing comments. Well, thank you all very much for joining today's call. We look forward to updating everyone on our next call. Q1 will be the first quarter where I've had both hands on the wheel, and I'm looking forward to seeing some of the big changes that we've made start to come through the financial results of the company. So thank you all.
I appreciate your time today. Take care. This concludes today's conference. You may disconnect your lines at this time. Thank you for your participation.