Q4 2023 Evans Bancorp Inc Earnings Call
Greetings and welcome to the Evans Bancorp fourth quarter fiscal year, 2023 financial results.
Operator: Greetings and welcome to the Evans Banc fiscal year. At this time, all participants are in a listening mode; follow the instructions. If anyone should require assistance, press star zero on your television.
At this time all participants are in a listen only mode. A brief question and answer session will follow the formal presentation.
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Operator: As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. And now, my pleasure. Thank you.
As a reminder, this conference is being recorded it.
Deborah K. Pawlowski: Twerdahl, Nicholas Cucharale, Deborah Pawlowski, Evans Banc, EVBN, Deborah. Thank you, Alicia, and good afternoon, everyone. We appreciate your taking the time to join us today, as well as your interest in Evans Bancorp. Joining me here are David Naska, our president and CEO, and John Connerton, our chief financial officer. David and John are going to review the results for the fourth quarter of 2023 and provide an update on the company's strategic progress and outlook. After that, we will open the call to questions.
It is now my pleasure to introduce you to your host Deborah Pawlowski Investor Relations for Evans Bancorp. Thank you Debra you may begin.
Thank you Alicia and good afternoon, everyone. We appreciate your taking the time to join US today as well as your interest in Evans Bancorp.
Joining me here are David Nasca, our president and CEO and John Conner, Our Chief Financial Officer.
David and John are going to review the results for the fourth quarter of 2023 and provide an update on the company's strategic progress and outlook. After that we will open the call for questions. You should have a copy of the financial results were released today after the market closed and if not you can access them on our website.
Deborah K. Pawlowski: You should have a copy of the financial results that were released today after the markets closed. And, if not, you can access them on our website at evansbank.com. As you may be aware, we may make some forward-looking statements during the formal discussion as well as during the Q&A. These statements apply to future events that are subject to risks and uncertainties, as well as other factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from what is stated on today's call. These risks and uncertainties and other factors are provided in the earnings release, as well as in other documents filed by the company with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Please find those documents on our website or at sec.gov. So with that, I will turn it over to David to begin. Thank you, Debbie, and good afternoon, everyone.
And Evan Spanx Dot com.
As you may be aware, we may make some forward looking statements during the formal discussion as well as during the Q&A. These statements apply to future events that are subject to risks and uncertainties as well as other factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from what is stated on today's call. These.
These risks and uncertainties and other factors are provided in the earnings release as well as with other documents filed by the company with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Please find those documents on our website or at SEC Gov.
So with that let me turn it over to David to begin.
Thank you Debbie and good afternoon, everyone. We appreciate you joining us today.
David: We appreciate you joining us today. I will start with a review of the highlights from the past year, including the strategic initiatives we completed in the fourth quarter, and will then hand it off to John to discuss our results in detail. 2023 was a year that can be characterized as one of resilience. With a backdrop of interest rate volatility and economic challenges that accelerated throughout the year, the entire Evans team continued to deliver results. Net income was constrained by margin pressure due to the acceleration of funding costs, which rose faster than asset yields, as banks responded to the steepest Federal Reserve interest rate increase in rates in decades and fought to maintain liquidity during a time of industry concern. We believe we are managing this unique environment well by retaining key relationships, deposits, and our liquidity position. In addition, growth, while difficult to come by, was attained through commercial business development and lending activity.
I will start with a review of the highlights from the past year, including the strategic initiatives, we completed in the fourth quarter and well then hand, it off to John to discuss our results in detail.
2023 was a year that can be characterized as one of resilience.
With a backdrop of interest rate volatility and economic challenges that accelerated throughout the year. The entire Evans' team continued to deliver results net income was constrained by margin pressure due to the acceleration of funding costs, which rose faster than asset yields as banks responded to the steepest Federal reserve interest increase in <unk>.
<unk> in decades and fought to maintain liquidity during a time of industry concern.
We believe we manage this unique environment well by retaining key relationships deposits and our liquidity position. In addition, gross well difficult to come by was obtained through our commercial business development and lending activity.
The bank instituted Cecil at the beginning of 2023, which provided increased allowance for credit losses of $2.7 million. Our credit trends have remained favorable as we experienced continued improvement in criticized assets and low charge offs. This past year.
David: The bank instituted CECL at the beginning of 2023, which provided an increased allowance for credit losses of $2.7 million. Our credit trends have remained favorable as we experienced continued improvement in criticized assets and low charge-offs this past year. Combined with improved economic conditions, we saw a muted provision impact in 2023.
Combined with improved economic conditions, we saw a muted provision impact in 2023.
David: During the year, we continued proactive measures to control costs, deliver efficiencies and scalability, and improve the overall customer experience with new technology and process improvement. Of note, total non-interest expense for the year decreased about $550,000, or 1%, which reflected our branch rationalization earlier in the year, as well as other initiatives which were partially offset by investments in technology and the community. The bank has maintained a focus on return of capital to shareholders and total shareholder returns. For the year, dividends totaled $1.32 per share, which was up 5% and equated to a yield of about 4.3%.
During the year, we continued proactive measures to control costs and deliver efficiencies and scalability and improve the overall customer experience with new technology and process improvements.
Total noninterest expense for the year decreased about $550000 or 1%, which reflected our branch rationalization earlier in the year.
As well as other initiatives, which was which were partially offset by investments in technology and the community.
The bank has maintained focus on return of capital to shareholders and total shareholder returns for the year dividends totaled $1.32 per share, which was up 5% and equated to a yield of about four 3%.
David: Turning to the strategic actions taken during the fourth quarter. For more than 20 years, insurance had been an integral part of Evans Bank. Ultimately, we built a successful business that was highly valued. On November 30, 2023, the company finalized the sale of the Evans Agency to Arthur J. Gallagher and Company for $40 million.
Turning to the strategic actions taken during the fourth quarter.
For more than 20 years insurance had been an integral part of Evans Bank Ultra.
Ultimately, we built a successful business that was highly valued.
November 30th into 2023, the company finalized the sale of the ovens agency to Arthur J Gallagher <unk> company for $40 million.
David: A question could be, why did we sell? Growth in insurance required additional investments, and acquisitions have become increasingly competitive based on how big insurance companies value assets and how they are financing them. We completed a significant amount of research and validated the opportunity that existed for a sale along with exercising what we felt was a fiduciary responsibility to realize the value created. The decision was also driven in part by recognition that the Evans Agency could realize greater opportunities for success and sustainability integrated with one of the top insurance and benefits companies in the world. AJ Gallagher is a growth-focused, insurance-first company with broader scope and scale to provide optimal benefits for all stakeholders. Of the objectives for the deal, a key one was to ensure a good home for our associates and clients. There were no job eliminations, and current leadership and the 60-plus direct employees of the agency were all offered positions with Gallagher.
A question could be why did we sell.
And insurance required additional investments and acquisitions have become increasingly competitive based on how big insurance companies value assets and how they are financing them.
We completed a significant amount of research and validated the opportunity that existed for a sale along with exercising what we felt was a fiduciary responsibility to realize the value created.
The decision was also driven in part by a recognition that the Evans agency could realize greater opportunity for success and sustainability integrated with one of their top insurance and benefits companies in the world.
A J Gallagher is a growth focused insurance first company with broader scope and scale to provide optimal benefits for all stakeholders.
Of the objectives for the deal are key one was to ensure a good home for our associates and clients.
There are no job eliminations and current leadership in the 60 plus direct employees of the agency, we're all offered positions with Gallagher.
Clients will have access to a greater breadth of insurance expertise in specialty areas, while experiencing the continuity of working with their current talented team of agency associates and leadership in.
David: Clients will have access to a greater breadth of insurance expertise in specialty areas while experiencing the continuity of working with their current talented team of agency associates and leadership. In the end, we believe the combination provides the best opportunity to elevate our customers' experience and provide our associates with significant opportunities for career growth and to flourish with enhanced resources. Gallagher will remain an insurance partner with Evans, providing commercial, employee benefits, and personal insurance products to our existing and prospective commercial, municipal, public entity, and retail clients.
In the end we believe the combination provides the best opportunity to elevate our customers experience and provide our associates significant opportunities for career growth and flourish with enhanced resources.
Gallagher will remain an insurance partner with avon's, providing commercial employee benefits and personal insurance products to our existing and prospective commercial municipal public entity and retail clients.
David: From a shareholder perspective, we believe the rationale was compelling. This was a unique opportunity to monetize the strategic investments made in insurance services and allowed us to optimize our capital and unlock value that we do not believe was being recognized in our stock. The sale price represented a substantial premium for the agency at almost 20 years of earnings.
From a shareholder perspective, we believe the rationale was compelling.
This was a unique opportunity to monetize the strategic investments made in insurance services and allows us to optimize our capital and unlock value that we do not believe was being recognized in our stock.
The sale price represented a substantial premium for the agency at almost 20 years of earnings.
David: It eliminates about $12 million of goodwill and other intangible assets, resulting in approximately a $4.55 per share tangible book value improvement. The after-tax gain was approximately $13 million, which provides us with the flexibility to strategically redeploy capital back into our core banking franchise. Given the current environment, we will continue to review a broad range of options to determine the best uses for this capital.
It eliminates about $12 million of goodwill and other intangible assets, resulting in approximately $4 55 per share tangible book value improvement.
The after tax gain was approximately $13 million, which provides us with the flexibility to strategically redeploy capital back into our core banking franchise.
Okay.
Given the current environment, we will continue to review a broad range of options to determine the best uses for this capital ultimately we believe there are ample ample opportunities to grow and create shareholder value.
David: Ultimately, we believe there are ample opportunities to grow and create shareholder value. This includes the balance sheet restructuring that we completed in the fourth quarter, which consisted of selling $78 million of available-for-sale investment securities, predominantly U.S. Treasuries and government-sponsored agency securities. Proceeds realized from the restructuring totaled $73 million, which were used to pay down short-term borrowings, and a $5 million loss was recognized on the sale. This transaction reduces a portion of the bank's liability sensitivity and is expected to improve returns in 2024 by enhancing our net interest margin. John will give you more details on that in a moment.
This includes a balance sheet restructuring that we completed in the fourth quarter, which consisted of selling 78 million of available for sale investment securities predominantly U S treasuries and government sponsored agency securities.
Proceeds realized from the restructuring totaled $73 million, which were used to pay down short term borrowings.
And a 5 million dollar loss was recognized on the sale.
This transaction reduces a portion of the bank's liability sensitivity and is expected to improve returns in 'twenty 'twenty four by enhancing our net interest margin John will give you more details on that in a moment.
Looking forward headwinds are expected to continue for community and regional banks with likely pressures on margins growth and funding until interest rates receipt.
David: Looking forward, headwinds are expected to continue for community and regional banks, with likely pressures on margins, growth, and funding until interest rates recede. We are seeing signs of moderation in deposit cost increases, and John will talk about our NIM expectations during his remarks. Although we do not have control over economic conditions, we are focused on what we can impact, which is growth in our core banking model and controlling costs to optimize our efficiency. With that, I'll turn it over to John to run through our results in greater detail, and then we will be happy to take any questions. Thank you, David, and good afternoon, everyone.
We are seeing signs of moderation in deposit cost increases and John will talk to our NIM expectations during his remarks.
Although we do not have control over economic conditions. We are focused on what we can impact which is growth in our core banking model and controlling costs to optimize our efficiency.
With that I'll turn it over to John to run through our results in greater detail and then we will be happy to take any questions John.
Thank you David and good afternoon, everyone.
John: For the quarter, we delivered earnings of $10.2 million, or $1.85 per diluted share, which was up from last year's fourth quarter and the sequential third quarter, largely due to the gain from the sale of the Evans Insurance Agency. Offsetting these increases was the loss from the sale of investment securities and a decrease in net interest income. Net interest income was impacted over both comparable periods by higher interest expense given intense competitive pressure on deposit pricing, which began to accelerate at the start of the year. This more than offset increases in interest income driven by growth in our variable rate portfolios following the Federal Reserve's series of ratings. As discussed in our third quarter earnings call in October, the sequential third quarter net interest margin was impacted by eight basis points from the reversal of approximately $400,000 of interest income, primarily resulting from one large commercial loan that was put on nonaccrual.
For the quarter, we delivered earnings of $10 $2 million or $1 85 per diluted shares which was up from last year's fourth quarter and a sequential third quarter largely due to the gain from the sale of the Evans insurance agency.
Offsetting these increases was the loss from the sale of investment Securities and a decrease in net interest income.
Net interest income was impacted over both comparable periods by higher interest expense given intense competitive pressure on deposit pricing, which began to accelerate at the start of the year.
This more than offset increases in interest income driven by growth in our variable rate portfolio is following the federal reserve's series of rate increases.
As much as was discussed in our third quarter earnings call in October the sequential third quarter net interest margin was impacted by eight basis points from the reversal of approximately $400000 of interest income primarily resulting from one large commercial loan that was put on non accrual adjusting for this impact NIM for the sequential third quarter.
John: Adjusting for this impact, NIM for the sequential third quarter was 2.87%. Therefore, on an adjusted basis, we saw a 12 basis point decrease in the quarter to 2.75%, which, although at a reduced pace from recent quarters, continues to be driven by increased interest expense from higher deposit costs. I will talk about our NMIC dictations at the end of my remarks.
2.87%, therefore on an adjusted basis, we saw a 12 basis point decrease in the quarter to 275%, which although at a reduced pace from recent quarters continues to be driven by increased interest expense from higher deposit costs I.
I will talk to our NIM expectations at the end of my remarks.
The $282000 in the provision for credit losses was predominantly due to the loan portfolio growth and higher reserves on individually analysed loans, partially offset by peer group metrics and economic factors.
John: The $282,000 in the provision for credit losses was predominantly due to loan portfolio growth and higher reserves on individually analyzed loans, partially offset by peer group metrics and economic factors. Non-interest income was up from both the previous year's fourth quarter and the previous year's third quarter as a result of the gain on the sale of our insurance agency, which David discussed in length. The gain was offset by a loss of $5 million from the sale of the $78 million in securities, which were yielding 2.12%, and were used to reduce wholesale borrowings with a weighted average cost of $5.30%. The balance sheet restructure has an earnback of 2.2 years and is expected to have a $2.3 million positive impact on net interest income in 2024. Non-interest income was $3.4 million after removing one-time transactions relating to the gain on sale of the insurance agency and the loss on the sale of securities, which is down approximately 30% over last year's fourth quarter and down 62% sequentially.
Noninterest income was up from both the linked quarter and the previous year's fourth quarter. As a result of the gain on the sale of our insurance agency, which David discussed in length.
The gain was offset by a loss of $5 million from the sale of the $78 million in securities, which were yielding to one 2% and were used to reduce wholesale borrowings with a weighted average cost of $5 three zero percent the balance sheet restructure as an earn back of 2.2 years and is expected to have a $2 3 million.
Positive impact in net interest income in 2024.
Noninterest income was $3 4 million after removing onetime transactions relating to the gain on sale of the insurance agency and the loss on the sale of Securities, which was <unk>, which is down approximately 30% over last year's fourth quarter and down 62% sequentially.
Insurance, which typically is the largest contributor within this category had income of $1 6 million, which reflects after the sale of the insurance agency on November 30th only two months of revenue earned by the agency.
John: Insurance, which typically is the largest contributor within this category, had income of $1.6 million, which reflects, after the sale of the insurance agency on November 30th, only two months of revenue earned by the agency. This accounted for approximately a $600,000 decrease from the prior year's fourth quarter. The reduction from the sequential third quarter was also impacted by the abbreviated months of operation, and the third quarter had higher seasonal commissions earned from institutional commissioning. Other income decreased $200,000 from the third quarter of 2023 due to movements in mortgage servicing. The decrease from last year's fourth quarter was primarily due to a $200,000 gain on sale of assets that were acquired in foreclosure and sold in the fourth quarter of 2022, and included $200,000 of revenue recognized relating to rents received from the acquired asset prior to the sale. Total non-interest expense increased $1.9 million from the sequential third quarter and was up $1.4 million from last year's fourth quarter.
This accounted for approximately $600000 decrease from the prior year's fourth quarter <unk>.
The reduction from the sequential third quarter was also impacted by the abbreviated months of operation and the third quarter had higher seasonal commissions earned from institutional clients.
Other income decreased 200000 from the third quarter of 2023 due to movements in mortgage servicing rights. The decrease from last year's fourth quarter was primarily due to $200000 gain on sale of asset that was acquired in foreclosure and sold in the fourth quarter of 2022 and.
And included $200000 of revenue recognized relating to rents received from the acquired assets prior to the sale.
Total noninterest expense increased $1 9 million from the sequential third quarter and was up $1 4 million from last year's fourth quarter. The driver of these increases was largely within the salaries and employee benefits line due to greater incentive accruals.
As a result of the execution of the strategic sale of Evans Insurance Agency. The company reached performance levels and recognize the corresponding incentive in the fourth quarter.
John: The driver of these increases was largely within the salaries and employee benefits line due to greater incentives... As a result of the execution of the strategic sale of Evans Insurance Agency, the company reached performance levels and recognized the corresponding incentive in the fourth quarter. The incentive increased from the sequential third quarter by $2.2 million and increased $1.6 million from the prior year's fourth quarter. Offsetting both increases from prior periods was a partial quarter of salary activity due to former insurance. 2023 full-year expenses attributed to the insurance agency were $6.8 million.
The incentive increased from the sequential third quarter by $2 2 million and increased $1 6 million from prior from the prior year's fourth quarter.
Offsetting those increases from prior periods was the partial quarter of salary activity due to former insurance employees.
123 full year expenses attributable to the insurance agency was $6 $8 million.
Adjusting for the reduction of the expenses related to the insurance agency. The company expect expenses to decrease one 5% in 2024 from 2023.
Turning to the balance sheet and reviewing movement in the fourth quarter total loans were up approximately $17 million.
John: Adjusting for the reduction in the expenses related to the insurance agency, the company expects expenses to decrease 1.5% in 2024 from 2023. Turning to the balance sheet and reviewing movements in the fourth quarter, total loans were up approximately $17 million. Of that, commercial loans increased 2% or $13 million. Net commercial originations were $58 million during the quarter, compared with $62 million of net originations in the third quarter.
Of that commercial loans increased 2% or $13 million.
Net commercial originations were $58 million during the quarter compared with 62 million of net originations in the third quarter.
We are being selective in our underwriting decisions, but are seeing opportunities in commercial real estate, including multifamily and warehouse facilities that are meeting our credit parameters.
The C&I funding rates remained muted and continue to impact growth in that portfolio.
The current pipeline is strong and stands at $75 million at quarter end, we expect total commercial loan growth to be approximately 4% in 2024.
Credit metrics remain sound with nonperforming loans remaining flat for the quarter.
Criticized loans decreased slightly by $5 million from $76 million at September $30 million to $71 million as of the end of the fourth quarter.
John: We are being selective in our underwriting decisions but are seeing opportunities in commercial real estate, including multifamily and warehouse facilities that are meeting our credit parameters. However, C&I funding rates remain muted and continue to impact growth in that portfolio. The current pipeline is strong and stands at $75 million at Cordera. We expect total commercial loan growth to be approximately 4% in 2024. Credit metrics remain sound, with non-performing loans remaining flat for the quarter. Criticized loans decreased slightly by $5 million, from $76 million on September 30th to $71 million as of the end of the fourth quarter.
This is a 20 $21 million decrease from last year's fourth quarter of $92 million.
Average total deposit balances decreased to 165 billion during the quarter when compared to $1 87 billion in the third quarter.
Reflected in the deposit decrease was the seasonal outflow of municipal deposits and commercial deposits, which is typical this time of the year.
However, as has occurred in previous cycles balances have and are expected to continue to migrate into different products. Specifically, we are seeing commercial clients migrate funds from the man deposit accounts in the sweep accounts.
And we expect consumer clients to continue moving funds from savings accounts to Cds and.
John: This is a $21 million decrease from last year's fourth quarter of $92 million. Average total deposit balances decreased to $1.65 billion during the quarter when compared to $1.87 billion in the third quarter. Reflected in the deposit decrease was the seasonal outflow of municipal deposits and commercial deposits, which is typical this time of year. However, as has occurred in previous cycles, balances have migrated into different products, and this is expected to continue. Specifically, we are seeing commercial clients migrate funds from demand deposit accounts into sweep accounts, and we expect consumer clients to continue moving funds from savings accounts into CDs. At December 31st, the percentage of uninsured and uncollateralized deposits was at 15%.
At December 31, the percentage of uninsured and uncollateralized deposits was at 15%.
As with many banks, we will continue to fight for deposits by being proactive with pricing and maintaining competitive rates in our markets market deposit rates have stabilized during the fourth quarter due to expectations of decreases in fed funds during 2020 for the.
The bank is managing its deposit pricing strategy to include balancing liquidity with profitability.
Our actions in the marketing food offerings shorter terms on CD products and reserving preferred pricing for core clients.
We expect that continued competition for deposits will mute growth for the full year 2024 to a low single digit increase.
These trends and pricing pressures continue to impact our margin for the fourth quarter. Our expectation is deposit betas, although D. Accelerating we'll continue to increased cost of funds. However, with the impact of the balance sheet restructure.
John: As with many banks, we will continue to fight for deposits by being proactive with pricing and maintaining competitive rates in our markets. Market deposit rates stabilized during the fourth quarter due to expectations of decreases in Fed funds during 2024. The bank is managing its deposit pricing strategy to include balancing liquidity with profitability. Our actions in the market include offering shorter terms on CD products and reserving preferred pricing for core clients. We expect that continued competition for deposits will mute growth for the full year 2024 to a low single-digit increase. These trends and pricing pressures continue to impact our margin for the fourth quarter.
We expect our NIM to be flat in the first quarter of 2024.
And the first quarter is difficult to forecast given external macro forces such as timing of a potential future fed rate moves and how competition may play out, but our current expectation is that NIM pressure moderate further during the rest of the year.
With that operator, we would now like to open the line for questions.
Okay.
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Our first question comes from the line of Nick <unk>.
With hub group. Please proceed with your question.
Yes.
Hey, everyone. Good afternoon.
Hey, good afternoon Nick.
John: Our expectation is deposit betas, although deaccelerating, will continue to increase cost to funds. However, with the impact of the balance sheet restructure, we expect our NIM to be flat in the first quarter of 2024. Beyond the first quarter, it is difficult to forecast given external macro forces such as the timing of potential future Fed break moves and how competition may play out.
I appreciate the commentary on the near term NIM outlook for finance in the first quarter and then moderating pressure afterwards, if we start to get fed cuts in the middle of the year or are you set to benefit substantially.
I mean, I won't really quantify it but yes rates down.
From the fed we would we would begin to moderate or we would be able to benefit, especially on our cost of funds, but I don't think it's not going to be a.
Operator: But our current expectation is that NIM pressure moderates further during the rest of the year. With that, Operator, we would now like to open the line for questions. Blake. Press Star 2 if you would like, if necessary.
A C change, but it will it should stem the tide and moderate our NIM compression, even further and hopefully as our assets reprice will start to benefit and see some increase in our NIM.
Nicholas Anthony Cucharale: Twerdahl, Nicholas Cucharale, Deborah Pawlowski, Evans Banc, EVBN, Hey everyone, good afternoon. Hey Dave. Hey Nick, I appreciate the commentary on the near-term NIM outlook for flatness in the first quarter and then moderating pressure afterwards. If we start to get Fed cuts in the middle of the year, are you set to benefit substantially? I mean, I won't really quantify it, Nick, but yes, you know, rates down from the Fed, we would be able to benefit, especially on our cost of funds.
Okay, and then in light of the capital generated from the sale of the insurance operation and what sounds like another year of moderate loan growth or are there other capital actions Youre looking at are there additional restructurings are buybacks on the table.
Buybacks are on the table.
We have.
David: But I don't think it's going to be a sea change, but it should stem the tide and moderate our NIM compression even further, and hopefully, as our assets reprice, we'll start to benefit and see some increase in our NIM. Okay, and then in light of the capital generated from the sale of the insurance operation and what sounds like another year of moderate loan growth, are there other capital actions you're looking at? Are there any additional restructurings? Buybacks are on the table. We have looked at those, we've talked before; it's difficult for us to get bulk in that, but we're, that is on the table, and we continue to pursue all our avenues. That's just one of them.
Looked at those we've talked before it's difficult for us to get a bulk in that but.
That is on the table and we continue to pursue all avenues and that's one of them. We've made other investments in things like our Rochester growth.
Certainly that's on the table.
Okay, and then on the securities portfolio or the sales this quarter. After the sales this quarter youre down to 13% of assets are we at the point, where you're beginning to add to the investment portfolio or is that that book still in run off mode.
John: We've made other investments in things like our Rochester growth, but certainly that's on the table. Okay, and then on the securities portfolio, are the sales this quarter, or after the sales this quarter, you're down to 13% of assets. Are we at the point where you're beginning to add to the investment portfolio, or is that book still in runoff mode, Nick?
Still in run off mode today.
Okay.
And then as it relates to the tax rate I saw the commentary regarding the nondeductible goodwill in the quarter, what's your forecast for the effective tax rate going forward.
That should be 'twenty two around 22%.
Thank you for taking my questions.
John: And then as it relates to the tax rate, I saw the commentary regarding the non-deductible goodwill in the quarter. What's your forecast for the effective tax rate going forward? That should be around 22%. Thank you for taking my question. Thanks, Nick.
Thanks, Nick.
Thank you.
Our next question comes from the line of.
Alex <unk> with.
With Piper Sandler. Please proceed with your question.
Hey, good afternoon.
Hey, Alex Alex.
So it seems like.
Like the Securities transaction, you did basically offset the lost earnings from the insurance business basically completely is that kind of how you thought about doing sort of the size of what you did or maybe talk a little bit more about I guess exactly how you decided what the restructure in the securities portfolio.
Alexander Roberts Huxley Twerdahl: So it seems like the securities transaction you did basically offset the lost earnings from the insurance business basically completely. Is that kind of how you thought about the size of what you did or maybe talk a little bit more about, I guess, exactly how you decided what to restructure the securities portfolio? Well, I think when we looked at the size of the capital that we wanted to utilize, I think we looked at our capital levels and where we'd like to be, Alex is probably the biggest priority.
Well I think we when we when we looked at the size of the capital that we wanted to utilize.
I think we looked at our capital levels, and where we'd like to be.
Probably Alex is probably was the biggest priority like we knew that we would be taking in this capital from the insurance gain but we wanted to utilize somewhere for the restructure but I think mostly drove it was we like where our capital ratios are currently.
John: Like, we knew that we would be taking in this capital from the insurance gain, but we wanted to utilize some of it for the restructure. But I think what mostly drove it was where our capital rates or ratios are currently to do the things that David just discussed as far as give us the flexibility to do buybacks to continue investing in our business. I think the one thing I'd say also, Alex, is that we looked at this thing when we sold the insurance agency, and I've been saying it all along. We fast-forwarded like 20 years' worth of earnings.
To do the things that David just discussed as far as give us the flexibility to.
To do buybacks to continue invest in our business.
I think the one thing I would say also Alex is.
We looked at this thing when we sold the insurance agency.
Been saying it all along we.
We fast forwarded late 20 years worth of earnings I know people want the current earnings are that way, but we're looking at this as a chance to bring in capital and redeploy that and we.
David: I know people want the current earnings that way, but we're looking at this as a chance to bring in capital and redeploy that. We calibrated the loss that we wanted to take based on where we want our capital position to be, as John just said. I just reemphasized that.
We calibrated.
The loss that we wanted to take based on where we wanted our capital position as John just said so.
I'd just reemphasize that.
John: Yeah, when you when you guys think about sort of where you want the capital position, are you looking at the TCE ratio? Are you looking at that tier one leverage ratio? I guess, like what's the metric that you would point towards as being the limiting metric?
Yeah. When you guys think about sort of where you want the capital position.
Looking at TCE ratio, you're looking at that tier one leverage ratio I guess like what's the with the metric that you would point towards is being limiting metric.
Our tier one leverage ratio is kind of what we're looking at.
John: Our tier one leverage ratio is kind of what we... OK, and it will be our goal to keep that sort of above 10%. Well, close to 10%, you know, within that range. And then, as we think about loan growth coming on today, maybe talk a little bit about the types of opportunities you're seeing in terms of yields relative to the book yield, which is, I guess, the lower 4% growth, which, you know..., a little bit lower than maybe you've got in years past. Is that driven more by the appetite of your balance sheet or more about the opportunities you're seeing? I think we're still seeing a little, as I mentioned, we're seeing a little challenge on our C&I side from our customers drawing on their lines. And you know, that draw percentage is down significantly, and we haven't seen that move yet. So that does temper some of our growth.
Okay and.
Will be the goal to keep that sort of above 10%.
Well close to 10% in that range.
Okay.
And then as we think about loan growth coming on today, maybe talk a little bit about the types of opportunities youre seeing in terms of the yields are relative to the book yields and.
Is I guess, the lower the 4% growth, which.
Little bit lower than maybe you've got it in years past is that driven more about by the appetite of your balance sheet or more about the opportunities you're seeing in the market.
I think we're still seeing a little as I mentioned, we're seeing a little challenge on our C&I side from.
Our customers drawing on their lines.
That draw percentages down significantly and you haven't seen that move so that does temper some of our growth the areas that we see and the growth. We do have a good we do have a good.
David: The areas that we see in the growth, we do have a good pipeline, and a lot of that pipeline is C&I. But I think we're seeing it in both, both C&I and commercial real estate, and it's kind of across our regular, typical stuff that we do within our portfolio. Back to the rates, I mean, the rates that we're getting on lines are north of 8%, and terms are north of 6.5%, 7%. But let me add additively, we are being considerate of our credit quality at this moment; we're making sure that we live up to our credit quality and getting the returns we want out of these deals. One
We do have a good pipeline a lot of that pipeline is C&I.
But I think we're seeing in both both C&I and commercial real estate and it's kind of across our across our regular typical stuff that we do within our portfolio back to the rates I mean, the rates that we're getting.
Amit.
All lines.
Is north of 8% and term is.
North of 657%.
But let me say.
Admittedly we are.
Being considerate of our credit quality at this moment, we're making sure that we're living to our credit quality and getting the returns we want out of these deals one and two is.
David: And two, your question directly is that we're seeing a little less activity in the marketplace right now, but we're pretty open for business right now. If the market heats up, you know, that number could move a little bit. But we do have a good pipeline, as John said. But we're making sure that we're doing deals that fit our credit quality. Okay, and as you're thinking about... I guess back to the capital question and sort of the uses of capital. Are there, would you consider M&A as one of those uses of capital?
Your question directly is we're seeing a little less activity in the marketplace right now.
But we're pretty open for business right now if the market heats up you know that number could move a little bit, but we do have a good pipeline as John said.
But we're making sure that we're doing deals that.
Our credit quality.
Okay and as you are thinking about.
Gets back to the capital question and sort of the uses of capital are there would you consider M&A as one of those uses of capital I know theres not a lot in the way of sort of the plain vanilla.
David: I know there's not a lot in the way of sort of the plain vanilla bank out there, maybe, but you know if you kind of look a little bit more and think about branches or other things like that, is that something you'd consider? Yes, I think we would consider it. We're considering all opportunities. So the short answer is yes. As you said, there's not a lot of opportunities to do a lot right now, but we'd consider those things. But we also think that there's growth on our horizon and that capital helps us get there to our native growth too.
Bank out there may be but if you kind of walk a little bit more and think about branches or other things like that is that something that you'd consider.
Yes, I think we'd consider we're considering all opportunities. So short answer is yes.
As you said, there's not a lot of opportunities to do a lot right. This second but.
We consider those things.
But we also think that there is growth center of horizon, and net capital helps us get there to their native growth too.
Okay.
Alright, good thanks for taking my questions.
Alexander Roberts Huxley Twerdahl: All right, good. Thanks for taking my question. Thanks, Alex. As a reminder, press star 1.
Thanks Al Thanks, Alex.
Thank you.
As a reminder, press star one to ask a question at this time.
Our next question comes from the line of Chris O'connell with K B W. Please proceed with your question.
John: Hey, good evening. Name Name Chris. I just wanted to start off on the expenses, you know, appreciate the guide and, you know, hoping to just get a little bit of color as to, you know, the starting point. You know, particularly in the comp line given the insurance fall off in the incentive accruals in the fourth quarter. Where do you think you know that line item kind of starts off the year? Yeah, so probably in the first quarter, our expectations for our salary line item would be around $7.3 million. That, if you normalized any of the quarters, insurance was about $1.5 million on that salary.
Hey, good evening.
Hey, Chris.
Just wanted to start off on the expenses I appreciate the guide and.
Hoping to just get a little bit of color as to you know the starting point.
Particularly in the comp line.
Given the insurance falloff and the incentive accruals in the fourth quarter.
Where do you think that line item kind of starts off the year.
Yeah. So.
In the first quarter, our expectations of our salary line item would be around $773 million that if you. If you take if you normalize our fourth any any of the quarters.
Insurance was about $1 $5 million on that salary line.
Great.
John: Great, um, And the 2024 guide is, OPEC's got it assumed, you know, like that incentive accruals are being hit at, you know, 100%. They'll be reduced from this year, just based on our expectation of where our performance is. And then can you talk about, you know, how much of the outflows this quarter were muni-related? And how much of those you think will come back in in the first quarter?
And does the 2024 guide does the Opex guide assume.
That incentive accruals are being hit at 100%.
There will be reduced from from this year.
Just based on our expectation of where our performance is going to be.
Okay great.
And then can you talk about.
The deposit is and how much of the.
Outflows this quarter were muni related.
And how much of those you think come back in in the first quarter.
John: And if you think they'll be coming back into the same product? Sure. So in the fourth quarter, you know, we can have variability on a day-to-day basis, so spot balances are sometimes a little misleading. So that's why I talked about the average balance. And if you look at the average balance, it's down, you know, close to $20 million, and almost all of that is the muni portfolio. And as far as we do expect, you know, we have a, we expect to get that back and more. The first quarter is when our municipals get their tax collections, and they come in and sit there through the first quarter quite a bit and trail off and get utilized for the rest of the year until the schools get it back in the fall.
Do you think there'll be coming back into the same product.
Sure. So in the fourth quarter, we can have variability on a day to day basis. So spot balances are sometimes a little.
Misleading. So that's why I talk to the average balance and if you look at the average balance it's down close to $20 million in almost all of that is the muni the muni portfolio and as far as we do expect we have a.
We expect to get that back and more the first quarter is when our municipals get their tax collections in and they come in and sit there through the first quarter quite a bit and then trail off and get utilized through the rest of the year until this until the schools get it back in the fall. So our expectation is we will get back.
John: So our expectation is we will get that back, as well as more. Do you think, I mean, it looks like, you know, much of that came out of the non interest expense or non interest bearing deposit line. Do you think it comes back within that line or into different interest bearing products? Yeah, I think within those line items, the aggregate story is municipal.
Back as well as add more.
Do you think I mean.
It looks like much of that came out of the noninterest expense our noninterest bearing deposit line do you think it comes back within that line or into different interest bearing products.
Yes, I think within those within those line items.
The aggregate story is municipal.
John: The line item story is our commercial accounts are continuing to move to some of our interest-bearing transactional accounts, like our NOW accounts. It is at a low point, but we don't expect it to fully come back on the demand-deposit line. A lot of those customers have rotated into interest-earning transactional lines, like our NOW. Yes.
The line item story that as are our commercial accounts are continuing to move to some of our not our interest bearing transactional accounts like are now accounts.
It is a low point, but we don't expect it to fully come back on the demand deposit line a lot of those customers have rotated into interest earning transactional lines.
Shift.
Okay.
Okay great.
John: Okay, great, just, you know, thinking about the NIM on a go-forward basis, appreciate the flat guide for the first quarter. How do you guys think, even I guess just assuming no FedCuts or any movement on that side, just stable rates? How far into 2024 do you think the NIM can bottom? Uh, I guess.
And just you know.
Thinking about it.
The NIM on a go forward basis.
Appreciate the flat guidance for the first quarter I mean, how do you guys think you know.
Even I guess just assuming no.
Fed cuts or any movement on that side just stable rates.
How far into 2024 do you think.
Jim can bottom.
I guess.
What what I would say is as as our assets reprice right through principal paydowns or.
John: What I would say is, you know, as our assets reprice, right, through principal paydowns or renewals, we expect a good chunk of the continued data to be offset by that. So, if we look forward, our expectation, our hope is that even after the fourth quarter, our balance sheet reprices itself. But we do think there is the potential, again, based on where the market goes, that betas can pick up here or there without any Fed movement and that there could be some continued pressure, and most likely that pressure will be in the second quarter. But then, as we move out and the Fed takes its movements, we would expect that the third and fourth quarters see a minimum stabilization and maybe some expansion. The vagary, if you will, Chris, is the competitive environment, and we see a little bit of moderation there. Great. And do you guys have any idea how much of the assets are set to reprice in 2024? So I've shared that. I mean, between our investment principal runoff, our loan runoff, and our renewals, it's around $300 million.
Renewals, we expect a good chunk of the continued data to be offset by that so if we look forward.
Expectation and our hope is that even after fourth quarter.
Our balance sheet repricing itself, but we do think there is a potential again based on where the market goes that betas can pick up here there without any fed movement and that there could be there could be some.
Some some continued pressure and most likely that pressure will be in the second quarter.
But then as we move out in the fed takes their movements, we would expect that third and fourth quarter.
Minimum stabilization or maybe some expansion.
The Vagary if you will Chris is the competitive environment, and we see a little bit of moderation there.
Great.
And how do you guys have how much.
The assets are set to reprice in 'twenty 'twenty four.
Yeah.
So I'm sure that I.
I mean between between our investment.
Principal runoff are one our loan runoff renewals.
Chris: That's all I had. Thanks for taking my question. Thanks, Chris. There are no further questions.
Around $300 million.
Great.
That's all I had thanks for taking my questions.
Operator: Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you, Alicia.
Thanks, Chris.
Thank you there are no further questions at this time I'd like to turn the floor back over to Mr. Nasca for closing comments.
Thank you Alicia.
Deborah K. Pawlowski: I'd like to thank everybody for participating in the teleconference today. We certainly appreciate your continued interest and support and your questions. Please feel free to reach out to us anytime, and we look forward to talking with all of you again when we report the first quarter 2024 results. So we hope you have a great day and thank you again for your interest. This concludes today's teleconference; disconnect your line. Thank you for your patience.
I'd like to thank everybody for participating in the teleconference. Today, we certainly appreciate your continued interest and support and your questions. Please.
Please feel free to reach out at us anytime.
And we look forward to talking with all of you again, when we report the firm.
First quarter 2024 results. So we hope you have a great day and thank you again for your interest.
Thank you. This concludes today's teleconference. You may disconnect. Your lines at this time. Thank you for your participation.
Uh-huh.
[music].
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.