Q4 2023 Teekay Tankers Ltd Earnings Call

Operator: www.magnusvideos.com Welcome to the Teekay Tankers Limited 4th Quarter 2023 Earnings Results Conference Call. During the call, all participants will be in a listen-only mode.

Welcome to the Teekay Tankers Ltd fourth quarter 2023 earnings results conference call. During the call all participants will be in a listen only mode. Afterwards, you will be invited to participate in a question and answer session at that time, if you have a question.

Operator: Afterward, you will be invited to participate in a question and answer session. At that time, if you have a question, you will be asked to press star 1 to register for a question. For assistance during the call, please press star 0 on your touchtone phone.

Participants will be asked to press star one to register for a question for assistance during the call. Please press Star zero on your Touchtone phone as a reminder, this call is being recorded now for opening remarks, and introductions I would like to turn the call over to the company. Please go ahead.

Operator: As a reminder, this call is being recorded. Now, for opening remarks and introductions, I would like to turn the call over to the company. Please go ahead.

Ed: Before we begin, I would like to direct all participants to our website at www.tk.com, where you will find a copy of the fourth quarter and annual 2023 earnings presentation. Kevin and Stuart will review this presentation during today's conference call. Please allow me to remind you that our discussion today contains forward-looking statements, and actual results may differ materially from results projected by those forward-looking statements.

Before we begin I would like to direct all participants to our website at www Dot Teekay dot com, where you'll find a copy of the fourth quarter and annual 2023 earnings presentation.

Kevin and Stewart will review this presentation during today's conference call.

Please allow me to remind you that our discussion today contains forward looking statements actual results may differ materially from results projected by those forward looking statements.

Kevin Mackay: Additional information concerning factors that could cause actual results to materially differ from those in the forward-looking statements is contained in the fourth quarter and annual 2023 earnings release and earnings presentation available on our website. I will now turn the call over to Kevin Mackay, Teekay Tankers President and CEO, to begin. Thank you, Ed.

Additional information concerning factors that could cause actual results to materially differ from those in the forward looking statements is contained to the fourth quarter and annual 2023 earnings release and earnings presentation available on our website I will now.

Now I'll turn the call over to Kevin Mackay, Teekay tankers, president and CEO to begin.

Thank you Ed and Hello, everyone and thank you very much for joining us today for Teekay tankers fourth quarter and annual 2023 earnings conference call.

Kevin Mackay: Hello, everyone, and thank you very much for joining us today for Teekay Tankers' fourth quarter and annual 2023 earnings conference call. Joining me today on the call is Mr. Andrade, Teekay Tankers' CFO. Moving to our recent highlights, on slide 3 of the presentation, Teekay Tankers reported adjusted net income of $99.5 million or $2.91 per share, an increase from last quarter's levels of $76.6 million or $2.24 per share

Joining me today on the call is sure Undrawn eight teekay tankers CFO.

Moving to our recent highlights on slide three of the presentation Teekay tankers reported adjusted net income of $99.5 million or $2.91 per share.

An increase from last quarters levels, $76 $6 million or $2.24 per share respectively.

Kevin Mackay: The company's 2023 adjusted net income of $500.5 million, or $14.65 per share, was more than double our strong 2022 earnings and established a new record for Teekay Tankers' highest ever annual net income. Amid historically strong spot rates, the significant value of our high operating leverage is clear. As a reminder, for every $5,000 increase in tanker rates above our free cash flow break-even of $16,000 per day... We expect to generate approximately $2.50 in annual free cash flow per share. We'll provide further information on this later in the presentation. In January, we gave notice to repurchase the remaining eight vessels on Sveil leaseback arrangements for $137 million.

The company's 2023, adjusted net income of $505 million or $14.65 per share. It was more than double our strong 2022 earnings and established a new record for Teekay tankers highest ever annual net income.

Amid historically strong spot rates.

The significant value of our high operating leverage is clear.

As a reminder, for every $5000 increase in tanker rates above our free cash flow breakeven of $16000 per day.

We expect to generate approximately $2.50 of annual free cash flow per share.

We will provide further information of this later in the presentation.

In January we gave notice to repurchase the remaining eight vessels on sale leaseback arrangements for $137 million.

Kevin Mackay: Once complete, this repurchase will bring the total number of vessels repurchased since March 2023 to 27 vessels for a total of $501 million, reducing our total debt outstanding to zero and decreasing our cash breakeven rates. In line with our fixed quarterly dividend policy, we have declared a cash dividend of $0.25 per share for the fourth quarter of 2023. In the market, 2023 turned out to be the best year for midsize tanker spot rates in TNK's history due to a combination of strong oil demand growth, longer voyage distances, and low fleet growth. Rates have remained firm at the start of 2024, with seasonal and geopolitical factors adding to an already tight tanker market. Looking further ahead, we believe that strong tanker supply and demand fundamentals will continue to support tanker fleet utilization and rates over the next two to three years, albeit with periods of pronounced spot rate volatility. Finally, we sold two 2004-built Afromaxxers during the fourth quarter for total proceeds of $46.5 million, recording a gain on sale of $10.4 million in December and an expected gain of approximately $11.5 million in Q1 of this year.

Once complete this repurchase will bring the total number of vessels repurchased since March 2023 to 27 vessels for a total of $501 million, reducing our total debt outstanding to zero and decreasing our cash breakeven rates.

In line with our fixed quarterly dividend policy, we have declared a cash dividend of 25 cents per share for the fourth quarter of 2023.

And the market 2023 turned out to be the best year for midsized tanker spot rates and Tnk's history due to a combination of strong oil demand growth.

Longer voyage distances and low fleet growth.

Rates have remained firm at the start of 2024 with seasonal and geopolitical factors, adding to an already tight tanker market.

Looking further ahead, we believe that strong tanker supply and demand fundamentals will continue to support tanker fleet utilization and rates over the next two to three years, albeit with periods of pronounced spot rate volatility.

Finally, we sold two 2000 and for Bill Aframax is during the fourth quarter for total proceeds of $46.5 million recording a gain on sale of $10.4 million in December and an expected gain of approximately $11 $5 million in Q1 of this year.

Kevin Mackay: Both of these vessels have now been delivered to their new owners. Turning to slide four, we look at the dynamics of the spot tanker market. As mentioned on the highlights slide, midsize spot tanker rates during 2023 were the highest in Teekay Tankers history, with rates averaging around $48,500 per day. Global oil demand grew by approximately 1.9 million barrels per day in 2023, per the IEA, as the world continued to recover from the COVID-19 pandemic, with particularly robust growth from China following the removal of travel restrictions at the start of the year, as well as

Both of these vessels have been delivered to their new owners.

Turning to slide four we look at dynamics in the spot tanker market.

As mentioned on the highlight slide mid size spot tanker rates. During 2023 were the highest in teekay tankers history with rates, averaging around 45 $48500 per day.

Global oil demand grew by approximately 1.9 million barrels per day in 2023 part of the IEA.

As the World continued to rebound from the COVID-19 pandemic.

With particularly robust growth from China following the removal of travel restrictions at the start of the year.

As well as from India.

Kevin Mackay: As a result, global oil demand moved above pre-pandemic levels for the first time to a record high of around 101 million barrels per day and has remained strong in the early part of 2024. Global oil supply also saw robust growth in 2023, despite OPEC plus supply cuts due to high output from non-OPEC countries. Oil supply growth was particularly strong in the Americas, with U.S. crude oil exports reaching a record high of over 4 million barrels per day. Tanker demand also saw a further boost from longer voyage distances during the year, which was the first full year following the EU's ban on Russian crude oil imports and the G7's price cap, which came into effect in late 2022. As a result, over 90% of Russian crude oil exports moved long-haul to India and China during the year.

As a result global oil demand moved above pre pandemic levels for the first time to a record high of around one.

101 million barrels.

Barrels per day.

And has remained strong in the early part of 2024.

Global oil supply also saw robust growth in 2023, despite OPEC plus supply cuts.

Due to high <unk>.

Output from non OPEC countries.

Oil supply growth was particularly strong in the Americas with U S crude oil exports, reaching a record high of over 4 million barrels per day.

Tanker demand so a further boost from longer voyage distances during the year, which was the first full year. Following the he use ban on Russian crude oil imports and the G Sevens price cap, which came into effect in late 2022.

As a result over 90% of Russian crude oil exports moved long haul to India and China during the year.

Kevin Mackay: While Teekay Tankers does not participate in this trade, there has nonetheless been a significant overall boost to mid-size tanker demand. Finally, despite an almost total absence of tanker recycling, the global tanker fleet saw less than 2% growth in 2023 due to a very small order book.

While teekay tankers does not participate in this trade.

Nonetheless been a significant overall boost to mid size tanker demand.

Finally, despite an almost total absence of tanker recycling the global tanker fleet, so less than 2% growth in 2023 due to a very small order book.

Kevin Mackay: This far outweighed, this was far outweighed by tanker ton mile demand growth of well over seven percent, leading to an increase in fleet utilization and strong rates. Spot tanker rates have remained firm at the start of 2024 due to a combination of strong underlying fundamentals, seasonal factors such as weather delays, and various regional disruptions. I'll give more detail on these factors later in the presentation.

This far outweighed this was far outweighed by tanker ton mile demand growth of well over 7% leading to an increase in fleet utilization and strong rates.

Spot tanker rates have remained firm at the start of 2024 due to a combination of strong underlying fundamentals seasonal factors such as weather delays in various regional disruptions.

I'll give more detail on these factors later in the presentation.

Kevin Mackay: Turning to slide 5, we provide an update on our CSMAX and AFRMAX size spot rates for the first quarter to date. Based on approximately 68% and 67% of revenue days booked, Teekay Tankers' first quarter-to-date SUIZMAX and AFROMAX-sized vessel bookings have averaged approximately $50,100 per day and $50,900 per day, respectively. Importantly, I once again highlight the value being created by TNK's eight-vessel chartered-in fleet, with seven ships trading in the strong spot market. With an average in-charter rate level of $25,400 per day, the chartered in fleet has a current mark-to-market value of approximately $60 million, which is in addition to our owned fleet. Turning to slide 6, we look at tanker supply and demand fundamentals, which we believe will continue to support high tanker fleet utilization for at least the next 2 to 3 years. Global oil demand is projected to grow by around 1.4 million barrels per day in 2024, as per the EIA, with further growth of 1.3 million barrels per day in 2025.

Turning to slide five we provide an update on our suezmax and aframax size spot rates in the first quarter to date.

Based on approximately 68% and 67% of revenue days booked teekay tankers first quarter to date.

Suezmax and Aframax size vessel bookings have averaged approximately $50100 per day and $50900 per day, respectively.

Importantly, once again highlight the value being created by Tnk's eight vessel chartered in fleet with seven ships trading in the strong spot market.

With an average in charter rate level of $25400 per day. The chartered in fleet has a current mark to market value of approximately $60 million, which is in addition to our owned fleet.

Turning to slide six we look at tanker supply and demand fundamentals, which we believe will continue to support high tanker fleet utilization for at least the next two to three years.

Global oil demand is projected to grow by around 1.4 million barrels per day in 2024 as per the E. I E. With further growth of 1.3 million barrels per day in 2025.

Kevin Mackay: This is in line with pre-pandemic levels of growth and indicates that demand growth for oil remains robust, with consumption projected to reach 103.7 million barrels per day by the end of 2025, three million barrels per day higher than the levels seen prior to the COVID-19 pandemic. Meanwhile, the outlook for tanker fleet supply remains extremely positive, with minimal tanker fleet growth expected over the next two to three years. This is especially true for 2024, with just 9 million deadweight tons scheduled to be delivered, the lowest annual total since 1997.

This is in line with pre pandemic levels of gross and indicates that demand grows for oil remains robust with consumption projected to reach $103 7 million barrels per day by the end of 2025 3 million barrels per day higher than levels seen prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

Meanwhile, the outlook for tanker fleet supply remains extremely positive with minimal tanker fleet growth expected over the next two to three years.

This is especially true for 'twenty 'twenty four with just 9 million deadweight tons scheduled to be delivered to lowest annual total since 1997.

Kevin Mackay: The tanker order book remains small by historical standards, at around 7% of the existing fleet size, while forward order book cover at Global Shipyards stands at three and a half years, meaning there is little spare shipyard capacity until 2027. The combination of a low order book, an aging tanker fleet, and a lack of shapeyard capacity until 2027 should lead to exceptionally low levels of tanker fleet growth over the next three years, including virtually no fleet growth in 2024. As shown by the chart on the bottom of the slide, tanker tonne-mile demand growth is expected to outstrip fleet supply growth this year and in 2025, continuing the trend that started in 2022 and extended into 2023. This compounding impact of demand growth exceeding supply growth should continue to support high levels of tanker fleet utilization and firm tanker rates.

The tanker order book remains small by historical standards at around 7% of the existing fleet size, while forward order book cover a global shipyards stands at three and a half years.

There's little spare shipyard capacity until 'twenty 'twenty seven.

The combination of a low order book and aging tanker fleet and a lack of shipyard capacity until 'twenty twenty-seven should lead to exceptionally low levels of tanker fleet growth over the next three years, including virtually no fleet growth in 2024.

As shown by the chart on the bottom of the slide tanker ton mile demand growth is expected to outstrip fleet supply growth this year and in 2025, continuing the trend that started in 2022 and extended into 2023.

This compounding impact of demand growth exceeding supply growth should continue to support high levels of tanker fleet utilization and firm tanker rates.

Kevin Mackay: Turning to slide 7, we look at various events that are impacting tanker trades this year, which are creating additional rate volatility in an already tight market. Starting on the right side of the slide, Russian crude oil exports flowing long haul to India and China via the Shadow Fleet should continue to support mid-sized tanker demand in 2024. In addition, there have been increased attacks on Russian refineries and storage facilities in recent weeks, which may cut Russia's ability to produce refined oil products and lead to more crude oil being available for export. In terms of oil supply, the majority of production growth in 2024 is expected to come from non-OPEC countries in the Atlantic Basin, led by the United States, Brazil, and Guyana.

Turning to slide seven we look at various events that are impacting tanker trades this year, which are creating additional rate volatility in an already tight market.

Starting on the right side of the slide Russian crude oil exports flowing long haul to India and China via the Shadow fleet should continue to support mid sized tanker demand in 2024.

In addition, there have been increased attacks on Russian refineries and storage facilities in recent weeks, which may cut rushes ability to produce refined oil products and lead to more crude oil being available for export.

In terms of oil supply the majority of production growths in 'twenty 'twenty four is expected to come from non OPEC countries and the Atlantic Basin led by the United States, Brazil and Guyana.

Kevin Mackay: Given that oil demand growth is expected to be concentrated in Asia, there could be an increase in Atlantic to Pacific crude oil movement, which would be beneficial for tanker tonne-mile demand. However, disruptions to vessel transit in both the Panama and Suez canals are also impacting the tanker market this year. While the Panama Canal is not a major transit Corridor for crude oil tankers, the inability to transit the canal limits tanker owners' ability to reposition ships between the Pacific and Atlantic basins and therefore creates inefficiencies, which from a tanker market perspective is generally positive as it leads to increased tanker utilization.

Given the oil demand growth is expected to be concentrated in Asia, there could be an increase in Atlantic to Pacific crude oil movements.

It should be beneficial for tanker ton mile demand.

Disruptions to vessel transits in both the Panama and Suez canals are also impacting the tanker market this year.

Well the Panama Canal is not a major transit corridor for crude oil tankers, the inability to transit the canal limits tankers owner's ability to reposition ships between the Pacific and Atlantic basins.

And therefore creates inefficiencies, which from a tanker market perspective is generally positive as it leads to increased tanker utilization.

Kevin Mackay: With regard to the Red Sea, the increase in attacks on merchant shipping since last December is having an impact on tanker trade patterns. This is a dynamic situation, but in recent weeks, there have been an increasing number of ship owners and operators avoiding the region and seeking alternative routes that involve longer voyages. For many vessels, this means sailing around the Cape of Good Hope, adding a significant number of voyage days and creating additional tanker tonne-mile demand. For example, the Suez Max voyage from Basra, Iraq to the Mediterranean is about 4,000 nautical miles or 13 days via the Suez Canal, compared to around 12,000 nautical miles or 40 days via the Cape of Good Hope.

With regards to the Red Sea the increase in attacks on merchant shipping since last December is having an impact on tanker trade patterns.

This is a dynamic situation, but in recent weeks there have been an increasing number of ship owners and operators avoiding the region and seeking alternative routes they involve longer voyages.

For many vessels this means sailing around the Cape of good hope, adding a significant number of voyage days and creating additional tanker ton mile demand.

For example, a suezmax voyage from Basra, Iraq to the Mediterranean is about 4000 nautical miles or 13 days via the Suez Canal compared to around 12000 nautical miles or 40 days via the Cape of good hope.

Kevin Mackay: While it is impossible to predict how this situation will evolve, the rerouting of cargo is likely to continue creating additional tanker demand in the near term. Finally, the expansion of the Trans Mountain Pipeline to Vancouver, Canada, later this year will lead to a new source of AFROMAC-specific demand. This pipeline, with an increasing capacity of 590,000 barrels per day, is intended to provide a new seaborne outlet for Canadian crude oil exports. Given that the terminal is restricted to AFROMAX-sized vessels, it is anticipated that the expansion could result in up to 30 to 35 AFROMAX loadings per month.

Well it is impossible to predict how this situation will evolve the rerouting of cargoes as lately to continue creating additional tanker demand in the near term.

Finally, the expansion of the Trans Mountain pipeline to Vancouver, Canada. Later, this year will lead to a new source of Aframax specific demand.

This pipeline with an increasing capacity of 590000 barrels per day is intended to provide you seaborne outlet for Canadian crude oil exports.

Given the terminal was is restricted to aframax size vessels is anticipated that the expansion could result in up to 30 to 35 Aframax loadings per months.

Kevin Mackay: This is an exciting development and has the potential to create significant AFROMAX demand once the pipeline is up and running, with the operator currently expecting oil flows through the pipeline during the second quarter of 2024. So in sum, the numerous changes to trade patterns around the world, which I've just described, are leading to increased complexity and supply chain inefficiency, creating additional tanker demand as a result, and spot rate volatility in what is already a fundamentally very tight market. I'll now turn the call over to Stuart to cover the next two slides. Thanks, Kevin.

This is an exciting development and has the potential to create significant aframax demand once the pipeline is up and running with the operator currently expecting the start of oil flows through the pipeline during the second quarter of 2024.

So in sum the numerous changes to trade patterns around the world, which I've. Just described are leading to increased complexity and supply chain inefficiency, creating additional tanker demand as a result as spot rate volatility in what is already a fundamentally very tight market.

I'll now turn the call over to Stewart to cover the next two slides.

Okay.

Thanks, Kevin turning to slide eight we outlined some of Teekay tankers key accomplishments in 2020 threes.

Stuart: Turning to slide eight, we outlined some of Teekay Tankers' key accomplishments in 2023. As noted earlier in the presentation, financially, 2023 was a record-breaking year with the company generating just over half a billion dollars of adjusted net income and over $575 million of free cash flow. These strong results allowed us to transform our balance sheet, repurchasing 19 vessels from sale leaseback arrangements and refinancing them with a new $350 million revolving credit facility, which provides us with greater financial flexibility. In addition, T&K ended the year with a net cash position of $226 million.

As noted earlier in the presentation financially 2023 was a record breaking year with the company generating just over half a billion dollars of adjusted net income and over $575 million of free cash flow.

These strong results allowed us to transform our balance sheet repurchasing 19 vessels from sale leaseback arrangements and refinancing them with a new $350 million revolving credit facility, which provides us with greater financial flexibility. In addition, TNK ended the year with a net cash position of $226 million.

Stuart: As a reminder, after the repurchase of our final eight vessels in sale-leaseback arrangements, we expect to be completely debt-free by the end of the first quarter. 2023 was also a year of strong operational performance with 99.8% fleet availability and zero lost time injuries, a metric that we don't often touch on during these quarterly investor calls but which is extremely important for the safety of our crews and the reliability of our operations. Commercially, we continue to manage our lucrative time charter portfolio by extending charters at rates well below the current spot market, enabling us to profit significantly from spread. With all of these accomplishments in 2023, the successful execution of our strategy has created significant value for our shareholders through a combination of returning capital via dividends and the appreciation of our share price. Since the beginning of 2023, we have generated a total shareholder return of 109 percent, which further builds on the significant shareholder value Teekay Tankers created in 2022.

As a reminder, after the repurchase of our final eight vessels in say a leaseback arrangements, we expect to be completely debt free by the end of the first quarter.

2023 was also a year of strong operational performance with 99, 8% fleet availability and zero lost time injuries, a metric that we don't often touch on during these quarterly investor calls, but which is extremely important for our sake for the safety of our crews and the reliability of our operations.

Commercially we continue to manage our lucrative time charter portfolio by extending and charters at rates well below the current spot market, enabling us to profit significantly from spread.

With all of these accomplishments in 2023, the successful execution of our strategy has created significant value for our shareholders through a combination of returning capital via dividends and the appreciation of our share price.

At the beginning of 2023 we have generated total shareholder return of 109%, which further builds on the significant shareholder value Teekay tankers created in 2022.

Stuart: Turning to slide 9, we highlight the potential for TNK to continue creating significant shareholder value in 2024, a year that we expect to be another strong tanker market. With 98% of our 51-vessel fleet operating in a strong spot tanker market that is supported by robust tanker supply and demand fundamentals and driven further by the various factors we have talked about today, we feel confident about our ability to continue creating shareholder value. As a demonstration, if we use the trailing 12-month average of T&K's realized spot rates and project that forward, our annualized free cash flow would be approximately $16.30 per share, or a free cash flow yield of approximately 28%. With this kind of operating leverage, strong prospects for midsize tankers moving forward, and a growing cash position, we're making progress in building Teekay Tankers' strategic optionality for future fleet re I will now turn the call back to Kevin to conclude.

Turning to slide nine we highlight the potential for TNK to continue creating significant shareholder value in 2024, a year that we expect to be another strong tanker market.

With 98% of our 51 vessel fleet operating at a strong spot tanker market that is supported by robust tanker supply and demand fundamentals and driven further by the various factors. We have talked about today, we feel confident about our ability to continue creating shareholder value as a demonstration if we use the trailing 12.

Month average of Tnk's realized spot rates and project that forward, our annualized free cash flow would be approximately $16 30 per share or a free cash flow yield of approximately 28%.

With this kind of operating leverage strong prospects for mid sized tankers moving forward and a growing cash position, we're making progress in building teekay tankers strategic Optionality for future fleet reinvestment I will now turn the call back to Kevin to conclude.

Kevin Mackay: Thanks, Stuart. In summary, as we experienced in 2023, the fundamentals of our business continue to be highly supportive of what could be a protracted period of mid-sized tanker market strength. Most notably, a very positive tanker supply outlook grounded in a negligible multi-year new build delivery schedule. Meanwhile, oil demand continues to grow past the post-pandemic rebound beyond the fundamentals. A range of factors are introducing complexity and inefficiency into the market, tightening the supply and demand balance still further.

Thanks Gerard.

In summary.

As we experienced in 2023, the fundamentals of our business continued to be highly supportive for what could be a protracted period of midsized tanker market strength.

Most notably a very positive tanker supply outlook grounded by a negligible multiyear newbuild delivery schedule.

Oil demand continues to grow past the post pandemic rebound.

But beyond the fundamentals.

A range of factors or introducing complexity and inefficiency into the market tightening the supply and demand balance still further.

Operator: Overall, we believe that our mid-size tanker focus and spot market strategy places Teekay Tankers in an ideal position to continue capturing upside and realizing shareholder value moving forward. With that said, operator, we're now available to take questions. Thank you. If you would like to ask a question, please signal by pressing star 1 on your telephone keypad. If you are using a speakerphone, please make sure your mute function is turned off to allow your signal to reach our equipment.

Overall, we believes that our mid sized tanker focus and spot market strategy places teekay tankers and in an ideal position to continue capturing upside and realizing shareholder value moving forward.

With that operator, we're now available to take questions.

Thank you if you would like to ask a question. Please signal by pressing star one on your tele.

If you are using a speaker phone. Please make sure your mute function is turned off to allow your signal.

Operator: Again, press star 1 to ask a question. We'll pause for just a moment to allow everyone the opportunity to signal for questions. We will take our first question from John Chappell with Evercore. Thank you. Good morning, Stuart and Kevin.

Our equipment again press star one to ask a question we'll pause.

For just a moment to allow everyone to.

Opportunity to signal.

Signal for questions.

We will take our first question from Jon Chapell with Evercore.

Thank you good morning, Stuart and Kevin.

Jonathan B. Chappell: The first question is simply, what's next? You pointed out a great outlook for the industry. Your operating leverage is immense. You'll be debt free in a matter of weeks.

First question is simply what's next you pointed out a great outlook for the industry, you're operating Leverages the men you'll be debt free in a matter of weeks.

Kevin Mackay: What comes next? The leveraging is done. Yeah, Jon, it's a good question, and I think it's really more of the same. I think we've been clear about, and over the last few quarters in explaining what our focus is, you know, our strategy is to continue to both build a strong cash position to reinvest in our fleet and to reinvest in our business, and B, to reward shareholders through some of the capital allocation tools that we laid out in our capital allocation plan. So I think just because we've crossed the, or we will cross the milestone of being debt-free It seems like since the special dividend, I think nine months ago now, there's been no real acceleration in the capital allocation.

What what comes next the deleveraging done.

Yeah, John It's a good question and I think it's it's really more of the same I think we've we've been clear on.

Over the last few few quarters in explaining what our focus is.

You know our strategy is to continue to both.

Build the strong cash position to reinvest in our fleet and to reinvest in our business and b to to reward shareholders through some of the capital allocation tools that we laid out in our capital allocation plans. So.

Hum.

Just because we you know we've crossed the or we will cross the milestone of being debt free the strategy will will remain the same.

It seems like since the special dividend I think nine months ago now there's been no real acceleration in the capital allocation I don't think there's been much in terms of buyback.

Kevin Mackay: I don't think there's been much in the terms of the buyback, despite creating a pretty big discount to most estimates of NAV. Do you think that that's something that accelerates now in 2024 as you wait for the opportunity to reinvest in the fleet? It's definitely something that, as I said, is in our toolbox. And, you know, nine months ago, when we rolled out our capital allocation plan, it was based on a holistic view of the board, which is always a holistic one around where we are going, where can we add the best value, and what should we do with the money we're generating. So I think I wouldn't read into the fact that we haven't used anything so far as something that indicates that we won't be using them in the future. Okay, just one more quick one.

Despite trading at pretty big discount to most estimates of AAV.

Do you think that that's something that accelerates now in 2024 as you wait for the opportunity to reinvest in the fleet.

It's definitely something that as I said is is in our tool bag and you know nine months ago, when we rolled out our capital allocation plan.

It was based on a holistic view.

Of.

Our needs as well as.

What what shareholders are looking for.

Hum and I wouldn't read into the fact that we may not have used one or two of the tool. So far we put them in there for specific reason.

The discussion that we have at management level and with the board.

<unk> is always a holistic one around where are we going where can we add the best value.

And what should we do with the money we're generating.

So I think I wouldn't read into the fact that we haven't used anything so far as something that indicates that we won't be using them in the future.

Okay.

Just one more quick one and then selling older assets makes a ton of sense, especially at these levels and you're continuing to do that should we maybe think about them.

Kevin Mackay: I mean, selling older assets makes a ton of sense, especially at these levels, and you're continuing to do that. Should we maybe think about..., renewing the fleet through sale and then just creating this massive buffer for when the cycle inevitably turns and then being opportunistic at some point in the medium to distant future? I think there's a lot of ways you can look at it. And, you know, we're not agnostics.

Renewing the fleet through sale and then just creating this massive buffer for when the cycle inevitably turns and then being opportunistic at some point in the medium to distant future.

I think there's a lot of ways you can you can look at it.

And you know where.

No agnostic.

Kevin Mackay: Sorry, we are agnostic to where we can bring the most value to shareholders over time. So, you know, in terms of what we're looking at, whether it's small acquisitions, large acquisitions, fleet dispositions, or exiting individual ship assets, as we did last quarter, those are all in the discussion that we have at both management and board level. OK, thank you, Kevin. Thanks, John. We will take our next question from Omar Nocta with Jeff. Thank you. Hi Kevin.

Sorry, we are agnostic to to where we can bring the most value to shareholders over time.

So you know and in terms of what we're looking at whether it's small acquisitions large acquisitions fleet dispositions.

Z individuals.

Ship assets as we did last quarter.

Those are all in the discussion that we have both management and board level.

Okay. Thank you Kevin.

Thanks, Sean.

We will take our next question from Omar <unk> with Jefferies.

Thank you Hi, Kevin Hi, Stuart.

Omar Nocta: Hi Stuart. Thanks for taking my question. I do have a couple and, definitely, you know, continuing the theme of John's question.

Thanks for taking my question I do have a couple in definitely a continuing the theme of John's question.

Omar Nocta: The, you know, Stuart, you mentioned in your opening comments about you're getting to the point now where you have optionality for future fleet reinvestment, and it's, you've been selling the older vessels, makes sense. You haven't been replacing them with modern ones. But just wanted to check kind of how you're sort of thinking about the planned, perhaps planned retooling of Teekay Tankers. Is it given the fact that asset values have started to really run away, are we sort of, are you thinking that maybe you should close the book on reinvestment in this upcycle? And is the plan basically to build a war chest and be prepared for investment when the market eventually rolls over? That's one sort of way, one question I have, and then maybe the second part of that is, perhaps, is Tankers where you want to be long term? Or are you thinking of, you know, diverting down the line? Hi Omar.

Stuart you mentioned in your opening comments about getting to the point now where we have optionality for future reinvestment in its <unk> bin.

<unk> been selling the older vessel makes sense, you havent been replacing them with modern ones, but just wanted to check kind of and how you're sort of thinking about the planned perhaps plant retooling of of Teekay tankers.

Is it given the fact that asset values have started to really run away or are we sort of.

Are you thinking that maybe you close the book on reinvestment in this up cycle and is the plan basically you build a war chest and be prepared for investments when the market eventually rolls over.

That's one sort of web one question I have and then maybe the second part of that is perhaps is tankers, where you want to be long term.

Or you're thinking of.

Yeah, diverting down the line.

Stuart: Thanks. Thanks for the very good questions. So, maybe we'll take the first one first.

Hi, good morning, Thanks for thanks for the very good questions. So maybe taking the first one first.

Stuart: So, we've been selling some vessels, a couple of vessels, our 2004 builds, which were about to turn 20 years old and were dry docked due, so that's sort of just a normal part of moving those vessels on. In terms of looking at reinvestment, I guess there are a couple of ways to look at it. Yes, asset prices are quite high, but we also have a view that the tanker market is going to be very robust over the next few years. So, part of the consideration is always, what are you paying for those assets? How much cash flow can you generate from them over the next few years, potentially paying them down to a level that you would be comfortable with?

So that's where we've been selling some vessels a couple of vessels or 2004, built which are which we're about to turn 20 years old and we're we're drydock due so that's sort of just a normal part of moving those vessels on in terms of looking at reinvestment I guess theres a couple of ways to look at it yes.

The prices are quite are quite high and we also have a view that the tanker market is going to be very robust over the next few years. So part of the consideration is always what are you paying for those assets how much cash flow can you generate from them over the next few years, you know potentially paying them down to a level that you'd be comfortable at so.

Stuart: So, just like time charters in and out are always looked at, we're also looking at S&P. So, I don't think that we've closed the book on the opportunity to buy vessels, so it's not that we haven't closed the book on the opportunity to buy vessels and we said, well, we'll just come back when asset values come down. So, it's something that we're always evaluating. With our growing financial strength, we look at all sorts of opportunities, including the potential to acquire fleets, M&A, everything. So, we are, as Kevin likes to say, we are agnostic over the approach that we would take, and we look at all those things as opportunities to reinvest in the fleet. So, we are committed to reinvestment, and if we can do it sooner and there are opportunities that we think will create value for shareholders, then we'll go ahead and do that. If we have to be more patient and wait, then we'll do that.

Just like time charters in and out are always looked out. We're also looking at S&P. So I don't think that we've closed the book on on the opportunity to buy vessels. So it's not that we've we haven't closed the book and we said well, we'll just come back when when asset values come down so it's something that we're always evaluating.

You know there is with our growing financial strength, we look at all sorts of opportunities, including the potential to acquire fleets.

M&A everything so you know we are as Kevin likes to say, we are agnostic over the approach that we would take.

And we look at all those things as opportunities to reinvest in our fleet. So we are committed to react to reinvestment and we will if we can do it sooner and there's opportunities that we think will create value for shareholders. Then we will go ahead and do that if we have to be more patient and wait and then we will do that so it's so our eyes are always open and we're looking for.

Stuart: So, our eyes are always open, and we're looking for opportunities. In terms of the second part of your question about other segments, we're a tanker company. We've been in tankers since we were formed in 2007, and that is where our focus is. If we end up in a situation where we have a lot of capital to deploy and the window isn't open for tankers, but there are other opportunities and other segments, then of course, as a company, we would consider where we can create shareholder value. We are a tanker company, and that's what we've been focused on, and at the moment, there's no intention to pivot away from that. Okay, thanks, Stuart, for that color.

<unk> in terms of the second part of your question about other segments, where tanker company we'd been in tankers.

Since we were formed in 2007 and that is that is where our focus is.

If we end up in a situation, where we have a lot of capital to deploy in tankers and there isn't the window is open for tankers, but theres other opportunities in other segments. Then of course as a company we would consider wherever we can create shareholder value, but we are a tanker company and that's what we've been focused on and.

At the moment, there is no intention to pivot away from that.

Okay. Thanks for that color I just was wondering if perhaps maybe the reason why we haven't seen reinvestment is perhaps thinking a bit more strategically outside of tankers.

Omar Nocta: Yeah, I just was wondering if perhaps perhaps the reason why we haven't seen the reinvestment is perhaps thinking a bit more strategically outside of tankers. I guess, at what point do you think, as you highlighted, at the end of the quarter, you'll pay off the capital leases, and the cash is going to start to really accrue fairly rapidly in the next few quarters, assuming, obviously, the market remains afloat. And as you highlighted, you think it can last a couple, two, or three years. But is there a point at which you start to think, wow, the cash is building too much, we need to now move this? Have you thought about that? And is there sort of like a cash balance trigger that really starts to make you think, okay, we have to put this capital to work? I don't think there's any trigger.

And I guess yeah.

What point do you think you know the.

Highlighted at the end of the quarter, you'll pay off the capital leases.

Cash is going to start to really accrue fairly rapidly in the next few quarters, assuming obviously the market remains the float and as you highlight that you think it can last you know a couple two or three years.

But is there a point at which point you start to think while the cash is building too much we need to now move it.

Have you thought about that and is there sort of like a cash balance trigger that really starts to make you think okay. We have to.

To put this capital to work.

I don't think that there is and I don't think theres any trigger first of all let's say that I don't think there's a number or or a trigger and when we put in the capital allocation our capital allocation approach, which was a sustainable quarterly dividend, which given our transformed balance sheet. We thought we would be able to continue to pay for the long term.

Stuart: First of all, let me say that I don't think there's a number or a trigger. And when we put in the capital allocation, our capital allocation approach, which was a sustainable quarterly dividend, which, given our transformed balance sheet, we thought we would be able to continue to pay for the long term. And then the flexibility to pay special dividends when deemed appropriate; we did that for that exact reason. So we could be flexible, and we could make large returns of capital or small returns of capital, depending on the position of the company and how we saw our prospects going forward. So the situation that we're in now is, as you said, we're generating a lot of cash flow, which at the end of the day is equity value for shareholders. And as we've seen in the last year, quite a bit of that equity value has come through in terms of our share price. And, you know, we had over 100 percent total shareholder return during 2023. During 2022, it was even larger than that.

And then the flexibility to pay special dividends.

When when deemed appropriate we.

We did that for that exact reason, so we could be flexible and we can make large returns of capital or small returns of capital depending on the position of the company and how we saw our prospects going forward. So the situation that we're in now as we as you said, we're generating a lot of cash flow, which at the end of the day as equity value for shareholders and as we've seen in the last year quite a bit.

Of that equity value has been as come through in terms of our share price and we've got we had over 100% total shareholder return during 2023 during 2022 it was even larger than that so we.

Stuart: So we feel like that equity value has been and is being realized in terms of our share price. But then the question becomes, well, what do we do with that cash flow or that equity value, and how do we best deploy that to create value for our shareholders? And that's the conversation that we have. Should we return a certain amount to shareholders via direct capital return?

We feel like that equity value has been is being realized in terms of our share price.

But then the question becomes well what do we do with that cash flow or that equity value and how do we best deploy that to create value for our shareholders and that's the conversations that we have should we return a certain amount to shareholders via direct capital return or do we think will create more value by having that financial strength that we can reinvest at the right time to create even more value. So.

Stuart: Or do we think we'll create more value by having that financial strength that we can reinvest at the right time to create even more value? So that's really the basis of the conversations that we have. And as you rightfully note, if this market stays strong for the next two years, T&K will be in a much different position than we are today. And I would expect the conversations that we have around the capital allocation would be informed by that changing nature of our balance sheet. And again, we will use the same criteria, which is, how do we create value for our shareholders? But the answers might be different as we move forward. Thank you. That was a great situation to be in, nonetheless.

That's really the basis of the conversations that we have and as you rightfully note.

As if this market stays strong for the next two years TNK will be in a much different position than we are today and I would expect the conversations that we have around the capital allocation would be would be informed by that changing the changing nature of our balance sheet and again, we will use the same criteria, which is how do we create value for our shareholders, but the answers might be.

Different as we move forward.

Thank you that all the great situation to be in nonetheless.

Omar Nocta: So, yeah, appreciate those comments. And if I could just ask, you know, one quick question just on the market. Kevin, you were sort of highlighting the Trans Mountain Pipeline. And just want to get a sense from you, is this, you know, you mentioned the 3035 AcroMax loadings, is this, a brand-new trade pattern that can start to evolve, or is there already a market for Afro-Maxes in that region, and where do those cargoes, you think, end up going? Thank you. Yeah, it's a good question. You know, at the moment you have approximately one AfroMax lifting session a week.

So yeah I appreciate those comments and if I could just ask you know what one one quick one just on the market Oh, Kevin you were sort of highlighting that the trans mountain pipeline and just wanted to get a sense from you does this you mentioned the 30 35 Aframax loadings. The this.

Brand new trade pattern that can start to evolve or is there already a market for aframax is in that region.

And where do those cargoes you think ends up going thank you.

Yeah. So.

So a good question.

You know at the moment you have approximately one one aframax lifting a week.

So it really is a significant uplift in export capacity.

Kevin Mackay: So it really is a significant uplift in export capacity. You know, there are various markets that that crew can move into. It can move down to the U.S. West Coast. It can move down to Panama to be put on VLCCs or co-loaded to send further over to Asia. It may even be put through the Panama Canal. At this point in time, we don't know.

You know, there's there's various markets that that crude can move into it can it can move down to the U S. West coast. It can move down to Panama to be to be put on our vlccs or co co loaded to send to a further over to Asia.

It may even be put through the Panama Canal.

At this point in time, we don't know.

Kevin Mackay: All we know is that the operator is indicating that the pipeline will open and have oil flow at some point in the second quarter of this year. But in terms of the destinations of those cargoes, we'll have to wait and see how the trading or the oil trading environment picks up on that oil and where they can probably make the best barge. So the only sure thing is that you can only load an AFROMAX out of Vancouver. You can't take a SUIZEMAX or a VLCC in there.

All we know is that the operator is indicating that the pipeline will open and have oil flow and at some point in the second quarter of this year.

But in terms of the destinations of those cargoes will have to wait and see how the trading or the oil trading environment picks up on that oil and where they can probably make the best Barnes and so.

The only sure thing is that you can only load and aframax out of Vancouver, you can't take a suezmax or a VLCC in there so from a demand perspective, it's a really exciting area that we really keen to keep an eye on.

Kevin Mackay: So from a demand perspective, it's a really exciting area that we're really keen to keep an eye on. And it could, you know, bode well with our capacity that we have currently in the U.S. Gulf and with our SUIZEMAX fleet also trading around that area. It could move a really good dynamic for the mid-size tanker space overall. Okay, very good. Well, thank you. Thanks for that, for that color, and I'll turn it over.

And it could bode.

Bode well with.

Our our capacity that we have currently in the U S Gulf and without our Suezmax fleet also trading around that area.

It could move a really good.

Dynamic for the mid sized tanker space overall.

Okay very good well. Thank you thanks for that for that color and I'll turn it over thanks guys.

Omar Nocta: Thanks. Thanks, Omar. Thanks, Omar.

Thanks, Omar Thanks Omar.

Kenneth Scott Hoexter: We will take our next question from Ken Hoexter with Bank of America. Hey, great. Good morning, Kevin and Stuart. And it's amazing that this discussion so far is terms of finally getting rid of all that debt, and you're going to be debt free in a few weeks. It's just such an exciting turn.

We will take our next question from Ken <unk> with Bank of America.

Hey, great Good morning, Kevin and Stewart and it's amazing that this discussion so far in terms of finally getting rid of all that that debt and youre going to be debt free.

Few weeks, it's just such an exciting time I want to talk about the market though.

Kenneth Scott Hoexter: I want to talk about the market, though. You know, we haven't talked about the market much. You know, it seemed like rates right now are about $60,000 a day or kind of trended, I guess, even in the back half of last quarter for both Afrasuez and you're kind of averaging $50,000. I think the stock move this morning is kind of showing a little bit of that disappointment in where rates are in the first quarter to date and then even where you averaged in the fourth quarter. Maybe run through with that, maybe some more moves of clean versus dirty. I don't know why they would be so different from what we see on the averages for the market through the quarter to that extent. Yeah, hi Ken.

We haven't talked much about the market you know it seemed like rates right now are about $60000, a day or kind of trended I guess, even in the back half of last quarter for both offer Suez and you're kind of averaging 50000 I think the stock moved this morning is kind of showing a little bit of that disappointment in and where rates are.

In the first quarter to date, and then even where were you averaged in the fourth quarter, maybe run through was that may be some more moves of clean versus dirty I don't know why why they would be so different what we see on the averages for the market through the quarter to that extent.

Yeah, Hi, Kent.

Kevin Mackay: Yeah, I can't speak to the TNK SharePrice movement today. But in terms of the market, I think I would. I would characterize it as being, you know what?

Yeah, I can't speak to the TNK share price movement today or.

But in terms of the market.

I think I would.

I would characterize it as being.

Yeah.

Kevin Mackay: A slightly less robust fourth quarter than what we had the year prior, but still at a historical level. TNK's performance in the fourth quarter was hampered slightly by some of our positioning at the end of Q3 with our SUISMAC fleet, where we bunched up some ships and ended up having to take rates that were significantly lower at the back end of the third quarter than what we've seen since then, and that impacted our result for the fourth quarter. But as you can see from our first quarters, the date numbers are averaging fifty thousand dollars across both segments. They're extremely healthy numbers.

A slightly less robust.

Fourth quarter than what we had the year prior but still a historical level.

Tnk's.

Performance in the fourth quarter was hampered slightly by some of our positioning at the end of Q3 with our Suezmax fleet.

Where are we we bunch up some ships and ended up having to take rates that were significantly.

Significantly lower the back end of the third quarter than what we've seen since then and that impacted our results for the fourth quarter.

As you can see from our.

Our first quarter to date numbers, averaging $50000 across both segments.

They're extremely healthy numbers, they're back up to close to 2022 in early 2023 levels.

Kevin Mackay: They're back up to close to, you know, 2022 and early 2023 levels. And I think that, you know, is a function of the fact that the market is strong, demand is strong, and the ton-mile is being expanded by all of those issues that I highlighted in the presentation. So I think, you know, our view is that the market should stay strong. There's obviously going to be volatility. You mentioned sixty thousand dollars a day. You know, the LR2s have been at that level, but they're slowly coming off.

And I think that you know is a function of the fact that the market is strong demand is strong and ton mile is being expanded by all of those issues that I highlighted.

In the presentation.

So I think our view is the market should stay strong.

Theres, obviously going to be volatility you mentioned $60000 a day.

The LR twos have been at that level, but they're slowly coming off.

Kenneth Scott Hoexter: The Afromaxx is in the U.S. Gulf, and it was $80,000 a day at points during the first quarter and has come off since then. Other areas, the Far East, is still holding fairly strong, so I think we're going to see, While the fundamentals are strong, you're still going to see volatility. So capturing that and making sure that our fleet deployment is in the right areas at the right time to capture that volatility is going to be important to maintain the kind of returns that we had last year. And I'm confident that looking at what we've been doing thus far in the first quarter, we should continue to perform well, you know, quarter over quarter. And I don't really focus on an individual quarter because, as I said, a lot depends on where the fleet ends up being positioned based on the voyages that we fix. Over a series of quarters, I'd expect us to be robust in terms of our performance.

The Aframax is in the U S. Gulf has been $80000 a day at points in during the first quarter and have come off since then other areas are the far east is still holding fairly strong. So I think we're going to see.

While the fundamentals are strong you're still going to see volatility.

So capturing that and making sure that our fleet deployment is in the right areas at the right time to capture that volatility is going to be important to maintaining the kind of returns that do we had last year.

And I'm confident that looking at what we've been doing thus far in the first quarter.

We should continue to perform well.

Quarter over quarter.

And I don't really focus on an individual quarter, because as I said a lot depends on where the fleet is ends up being position based on the voyages that we fix.

But over a series of quarters.

I'd expect us to be.

Robust in terms of our performance.

Kenneth Scott Hoexter: Yeah, I'm not. Thanks. I mean, it's a great run through, Kevin, and I'm not arguing the robustness. It certainly is robust. I mean, that's obviously what's generating the cash flow. I'm just arguing or trying to understand why such a consistent difference or underperformance relative to kind of Clarkson averages, which would be kind of the average of all the lanes, and I think I have it now from the end of the third quarter that impacted the fourth quarter. But was there more of that as you entered the first quarter?

Yes, I'm not sure I.

I mean, its great run through Kevin and I'm, not arguing the robust certainly as robust I mean, that's obviously, what's generating the cash flow I'm, just arguing or try to understand why such a consistent difference our underperformance relative to kind of Clarkson averages, which would be kind of the average of all the lanes.

And I think I got it now from the end of the third quarter that impacted fourth quarter.

But what was there more of that as you entered the first quarter or.

Kenneth Scott Hoexter: Or, you know, are you seeing the next level of bookings improve from where you were? Just trying to understand if there's going to be an acceleration, or you mentioned a couple pullbacks versus other regions that are really strong. So is that just a factor of where your vessels are?

Are you seeing then the next level of bookings improved from where you are just trying understand if theres going to be an acceleration or you mentioned a couple of pullbacks versus other regions that are really strong. So is that just a more a factor of where your vessels are.

Kevin Mackay: I think it's a factor of, you know, a broker's assessment of the market looks purely at, you know, a singular voyage. And when you're trading a fleet of 50 ships, you know, some ships sit in demurrage. Some ships are held up waiting to go through canals.

I think it's it's a factor of you know our.

Our brokerage the assessment of the market looks purely at you know a singular voyage and when you're trading a fleet of 50 ships.

Some ships sit in demurrage. Some ships are held up waiting to go through canals a lot of operational factors come in.

Kevin Mackay: A lot of operational factors come in that impact your final returns. There's also the timing. You know, it's not a straight average that you're getting that a broker calculates based on daily rates. It's fixing a certain amount of your fleet at a certain point in time in that quarter, and that has an impact. Sometimes, you know, as I've said, in the back end of the third quarter, not a very good impact. Other times, the impact is really positive.

The impacts your your final returns Theres also the timing you know, it's not a straight average that you're getting there are broker calculates based on daily rates, it's fixing a certain amount of your fleet at a certain point in time in that quarter and that has an impact sometimes.

You know as I've said in the back into the third quarter not a very good impact other times. The impact is really positive. So I wouldn't look at broker assessments and then judge every ship owners performance necessarily against that on an individual quarter.

Kevin Mackay: So I wouldn't look at broker assessments and then judge every ship owner's performance necessarily against that in an individual quarter. Great. And then I guess two quick questions, Stuart.

Great and then I guess two quick Stuart questions. One can you talk about the new breakeven level as you get past. This the final debt Paydown, maybe just how we should think about that and then secondly, you mentioned, it's not the right time to buy yet you want to keep looking at the market do you go back.

Stuart: One, can you talk about the new breakeven level as you get past this final debt paydown? Maybe just how we should think about that. And secondly, you mentioned it's not the right time to buy yet. You want to keep looking at the market. Do you go back to the special dividend policy, or do you enhance the buyback? Do you have a favorite move in the interim if you're starting to build the cash that you were just talking about? Yeah, thanks, Ken. In terms of the breakeven level, So once we repurchase these final vessels, expect the breakeven level to be between $15,500 and $16,000 a day, depending on a few factors, but that's about where it is.

To the special dividend.

Policy or or do you want to add to the buyback do you have like a favorite move in the interim if you're starting to build the cash that you were just talking previously about.

Yeah, Thanks, Ken in terms of the breakeven level.

So once these once we repurchased these final vessels expected to breakeven level to be between 15000 and $516000 a day, depending on a few factors, but that's about where it is so above that level, we would generate free cash flow positive free cash flow.

Stuart: So above that level, we would generate free cash flow, positive free cash flow. And just to be clear, that's an all-in number that includes capex, maintenance capex, and everything else. That's a fully banked number.

And just to be clear that's an all in number includes capex maintenance capex and everything else, that's a fully baked number.

Stuart: In terms of capital, in terms of capital allocation, when we announced the capital allocation policy three quarters ago, we did characterize the special dividends as something that we would use periodically to return more capital to shareholders. We certainly haven't changed that. So it's not really a matter of going back to it.

In terms of capital outlook in terms of capital allocation.

When we announced the capital allocation policy three quarters ago, we did characterize the special dividends is something that we would use periodically to return.

More capital to shareholders.

We certainly haven't changed that so it's not really a matter of going back to it its I guess its in place there and it's what it is we're using it in a way that we had intended to use it.

Stuart: I guess it's in place there, and that's what we're doing the way that we had intended to use it. And we're going to, and we'll continue to have discussions around, you know, when and how to use those special dividends. So at the moment, I would say that if there's capital allocation, in addition to our fixed quarterly, that it's more likely to be in the form of special dividends and buybacks. The buybacks were put in place.

And we're going to we'll continue to have discussions around you know when and how to use that special dividend. So at.

At the moment I would say that.

If there is capital allocation in addition to our fixed quarterly that it's more likely to be in the form of special dividends than buybacks the buybacks.

Were put in place the buyback program was put in place are mainly to deal with if we thought they were sustained long term dislocations in the market, which was affecting our share price that we could act opportunistically.

Stuart: The buyback program was put in place mainly to deal with if we thought there were sustained long-term dislocations in the market, which was affecting our share price, so we could act opportunistically. But I would say that, as we did in 2023, special dividends are a more likely use of returning capital in the near term. Very helpful.

But I would say that as.

As we did in 2023 spec.

Special dividends or more likely use of returning capital in the near term.

Very helpful. Thanks, Kevin Thanks, Don appreciate the ethics.

Kenneth Scott Hoexter: Thanks, Cameron. Thanks, Stewart. Appreciate the insight. Thanks, Kenneth. We will take our next question from Ira Toveltson with Pareto Security. Hi, thank you.

Thanks Kenneth.

We will take our next question from IRA.

<unk> with Pareto Securities.

Yes, I think he is just just a follow up I was just curious because it did I understand you correctly. When you said that you don't really have a limit as to how big your cash.

Ira Toveltson: Just to follow up, I was just curious, because did I understand you correctly when you said that you don't really have a limit as to how big your cash, you know, coffers could really grow here? Because, of course, you're already at very decent levels and, in current markets, you know, that's growing rapidly. So you don't see swollen cash coffers as, as, you know, there's no limit, basically, to where we can be. Hi, Ira.

Congress could really grow here because of course, you're already at very decent levels and at current markets. You know that's that's growing rapidly. So so you don't see.

Swollen cash coffers as a as you know and there is no limit basically to where we can be.

Stuart: Thanks for the question. Right, so we don't have a number in mind that says, you know, once we reach this number, that we would feel compelled to do something with that capital. Again, it's looking at the opportunities in the market, the need for fleet reinvestment, our view on when those opportunities might arise, how much capital we would need to take advantage of them, and then making a decision around our overall capital allocation. So where we stand today, we think that we will continue to build balance sheet strength, and we will balance that off against returning capital to shareholders via our capital allocation policy that we've outlined. And we can't really look into the crystal ball and say, well, we're in, you know, 12 months from now. What will our decision be around capital allocation?

Hi, IRA thanks for the question.

Right. So we don't have a number in mind that says you know once we read that reached this number that we would feel.

Feel compelled to do something with that with that capital.

Again, it's looking at the opportunities in the market the need for fleet reinvestment I'll review on when those opportunities might arise how much capital we would need to to to take advantage of those and then making a decision around our overall capital allocation. So.

Where we stand today, we think that we will continue to build balance sheet strength, and we will balance that off against returning capital to shareholders via the our capital allocation policy that we have that we've outlined.

And we can't really look into the Crystal ball and say well. We're in 12 months from now what will our decisions around capital allocation, but where we are today.

Stuart: But where we are today is that we're in the same place roughly when we announced our capital allocation nine months ago, which is our primary focus will continue to be on building financial strength so we can make reinvestments in the fleet and balance that off against returning capital directly to shareholders. And if and when we get to a stage that we think that's not the appropriate capital allocation policy and we should do something different, which could be investing that capital, returning it to shareholders, whatever it is, then if we get to that stage, we will definitely communicate that to the market, and we'll go from there. Okay, but I think previously you said that new bull prices weren't really attractive, or at least the lead times were not really compelling. So, did that change at all over the past six months?

Is that.

We're in the same place roughly that we when we announced our capital allocation nine months ago, which is our primary focus will continue to be on building financial strength. So we can.

Make reinvestments in the fleet balance that off against.

Turning capital directly to shareholders and when we if and when we get to a stage that we think thats not the appropriate capital allocation policy and we should do.

Do something different.

Which could be.

Investing that capital it could be returning it to shareholders or whatever it is then you know if we get to that stage, we will definitely communicate that to the market and and we'll go from there.

Okay, but I think previously you had said that newbuild prices weren't really attractive lead times, where we're not really compelling so has that changed at all over the past six months.

Stuart: As I mentioned earlier, new building prices are quite high, and as I said, I think one of the things we need to balance that off against, and I think probably all ship owners are, is the view of the market over the next few years and the strong cash flows that we could produce over that period, and putting the cost of vessels in that context. You know, there's also potential M&A opportunities, there's time charter opportunities, there's a number of ways that we could deploy that capital, and those are things that we're always looking at and analyzing. So there's nothing specific to say, there's no, nothing, yeah.

As I mentioned earlier I mean, the new building prices are quite high and.

As I said I think one of the things we need to balance that off against and I think probably all ship owners or is the view of the market in the next over the next few years and the strong cash flows that we could we could produce over that period and putting the context of or putting the cost of vessels in that context.

You know Theres also M&A potential opportunities there is time charter opportunities. There's a there's a number of operators. There's a number of things are ways that we could deploy that capital and those are things that we're always looking at and analyzing.

So theres nothing.

There's no nothing.

Yes.

Okay, but you can find it out and when you when you mentioned M&A in your I mean, you you do highlight shareholder value creation here in a number of times, but in terms of M&A.

Stuart: Finally, when you mention M&A, you do highlight shareholder value creation a number of times, but in terms of M&A, do you look at your price to NAV? Do you feel your share price is fairly reflecting where the underlying values are at the moment? Yeah, so we've traded, you know, our shares have traded in a range over the last 52 weeks. Obviously, they've, you know, we started the year at the beginning of 2023 at $28 a share; we traded up to over $64 a share. So it moves in a limited range.

Do you look at your price and maybe you do you feel your share prices.

Trade it reflecting you know where the underlying values are at the moment.

Curious.

Yes, so we've traded and you know our our our shares have traded in a range over the last 52 weeks obviously they've.

We started the year at the beginning of 2023 of $28 a share we trade it up to over $64 a share so it moves in a range.

Stuart: You know, sometimes we probably thought that that range was more reflective of the underlying value of the company than others. But I guess our focus is on running the company as best we can, creating shareholder value, and trying to illuminate our strategy and, you know, hoping that that is reflected adequately in the share price. If we think that there is a dislocation that gives us an opportunity to buy back shares, we have that available to us, which we can use. But again, our focus is on long-term value creation more so than short-term share price movements.

Sometimes we probably thought that that range was more reflective of the underlying value of the company and then others, but I guess our focus is on running the company as best we can creating shareholder value and and trying to eliminate our strategy and and and hoping that that is reflected adequately in the share price. If we think that there is a dislocation that we.

Can that can that gives us an opportunity to buy back shares we have that available to us, which we can use.

But again, our focus is on long term value creation more so than short term shareholder share price movements.

Stuart: All right, that's fair. Thank you. Great. At this time, I would like to turn the call back over to the company. Thank you for joining us today, and we'll speak to you next quarter. This concludes today's call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.

But that's it thank you.

Great. Thank you.

At this time I would like to turn the call back over to the company.

Thank you for joining us today, and we'll speak to you next quarter.

This concludes today's call. Thank you for your participation you may now disconnect.