Full Year 2024 Novo Nordisk AS Earnings Call
Speaker Change: Good day and thank you for standing by. Welcome to the four-year 2024 Novo Nordisk Earnings Conference Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. After the speaker's presentation, there will be a question and answer session. To ask a question during the session, you will need to press star 1 and 1 on your telephone. You will then hear an automated message advising your hand is raised.
Speaker Change: To withdraw your question, please press star 1 and 1 again. Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded. I would now like to hand the conference over to your first speaker today, Jacob Martin, VP of All, Head of Investor Relations. Please go ahead, sir.
Thank you.
Speaker Change: Welcome to this Norma Nordisk earnings call for the full year of 2024. My name is Jacob Rode, and I'm the Head of Investor Relations at Norma Nordisk.
Speaker Change: With me today, I have CEO of Novo Nordisk, Lars Brodgaard Jørgensen, Executive Vice President and Head of Commercial Strategy and Corporate Affairs, Camilla Sylvest, Executive Vice President, U.S. Operations and Head of Global Business Development, Dave Moore, Executive Vice President and Head of Development, Martin Holz Lange, and finally, Chief Financial Officer, Karsten Knudsen.
Speaker Change: All speakers will be available for the Q&A session. Today's announcement and the slides for this call are available on our website, nomonoides.com. Please note that the call is being webcasted live and the recording will be made available on our website as well. The call is scheduled to last 1 hour and 15 minutes.
Please turn to the next slide.
Speaker Change: The presentation is structured as outlined on slide 2. Please note that all sales and operating profit group statements will be at constant exchange rates unless otherwise specified.
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Speaker Change: Thank you for watching. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll see you next time.
Speaker Change: We need to advise you that this call will contain forward-looking statements. These are subject to risk and uncertainty that could cause actual results to differ materially from expectations.
Speaker Change: For further information on risk factors, please see the company announcement for the full year of 2024 and the slides prepared for this presentation. With that, over to you, Lars, for an update on our strategic aspirations.
Thank you, Yara. Next slide, please.
Speaker Change: In 2024 we deliver 26% sales growth and 26% operating profit growth.
Speaker Change: I would like to start this call by going through the performance highlights across our strategic aspirations before handing over the work to my colleagues.
Speaker Change: Starting with our focus on purpose and sustainability, we are now serving more than 45 million patients with our diabetes and obesity treatments. This is an increase of almost 4 million patients compared to last year and reflects our continued capacity expansion efforts.
Our total carbon emissions rose by 23% compared to 2015.
Speaker Change: This was mainly driven by our increased production volumes and increased investments in capital expenditure to meet the high demand for our innovative treatments.
Speaker Change: To uphold our commitment of being a sustainable employer, we expanded the number of women in senior leadership positions to 42%, compared to around 41% last year.
Speaker Change: In R&D, we had several exciting obesity readouts this quarter, such as Kecresema, semaglutide 7.2 mg, and amicretin.
Speaker Change: These results reinforce our strategic aspiration of developing superior treatment solutions for people living with obesity.
Speaker Change: For CagriSema, we remain confident in its potent biology and look forward to further exploring its potential and to making it available to patients. Martin will come back to this and all RD milestones later.
Speaker Change: The quarterly sales growth reflects solid commercial execution across both operating units. Camilla and Dave will go through the details later. Karsten will go through the financial details, but I'm pleased with a sales growth of 26% in 2024, as well as an attractive growth outlook for 2025.
Speaker Change: Now I would like to hand over the word to Camilla for an update on commercial execution of 2024.
Thank you, Lars, and please turn to the next slide.
Camilla: In 2024, our total sales increased by 26%. The sales growth was driven by both operating units, with North America operations growing 30% and international operations growing 19%. In the U.S., sales growth was positively impacted by gross-to-net sales adjustments.
Camilla: Our GLP-1 sales in diabetes increased by 22 percent, driven by North America operations growing 23 percent and international operations growing 18 percent.
Camilla: Insulin sales increased by 17 percent, driven by North America operations growing 52 percent, positively impacted by gross-to-net sales adjustments, and international operations growing 6 percent.
Camilla: Obesity care sales increased 57% driven by North America operations growing 45% and international operations growing 107%.
Camilla: In both geographies, growth was driven by VGOVI, partly offset by declining sex center sales as the obesity care market is moving towards once-weekly treatments.
Camilla: Rare disease sales increased by 9%, driven by a 20% increase in North America operations.
Camilla: And rare disease sales in international operations remained unchanged compared to last year. Please turn to the next slide.
Camilla: I would like to reiterate our commitment to continue reaching more patients with our innovative treatments.
Camilla: Today, Novo Nordisk is the global GLP-1 volume market leader, serving nearly two-thirds of all patients on GLP-1 treatments across diabetes and obesity.
Camilla: Our ongoing scaling efforts have supported an almost tripling of GLP-1 patient reach over the last three years.
Camilla: In December 2024, we announced that the acquisition of the Catalan sites from Nova Holdings was completed.
Camilla: This transaction supports our ongoing scaling efforts and will expand Nova Nordisk's global fill and finish footprint from 11 to 14 sites.
Camilla: We still expect the three sites to gradually increase market supply beyond our pre-existing CMO contracts to the market from 2026 and allow us to reach significantly more patients in the years to come. Please turn to the next slide.
Camilla: Within diabetes care sales growth was 20% driven by our GLP-1 portfolio and insulins.
Camilla: We sustained our diabetes value market share leadership with an unchanged market share of 33.7 percent compared to last year. This remains above our strategic aspiration of reaching one third of the global diabetes value market in 2025. Please turn to the next slide.
Camilla: In international operations, diabetes care sales increased by 12% in 2024, which was mainly driven by GLP-1, diabetes care sales growing 18%.
Camilla: Novo Nordisk remains the market leader in international operations with a GLP-1 diabetes value market share of almost 64%. And with that, I would hand over the word to Dave.
Thank you, Camilla. Please turn to the next slide.
Dave: Sales of GLP-1 diabetes care products in the U.S. increased by 24 percent.
Dave: The sales increase was mainly driven by the continued uptake of Ozempic and the GLP-1 class growth. Novo Nordisk remains the market leader in the U.S. with more than 52% market share, measured by total monthly prescriptions.
Please turn to the next slide.
Dave: WeGovi sales increased by 86% globally, driven by a 59% growth in North America operations, and WeGovi sales in international operations have reached more than 11 billion Danish kroner.
Dave: The global total branded obesity market more than doubled with a growth rate of 119 percent.
Dave: In the U.S., the Wigovi sales growth was driven by increased volumes, partially countered by lower realized prices in the U.S.
Dave: The positive volume development was also reflected in the Wigovi prescription trends in the U.S. which currently is around 200,000 weekly prescriptions. That's compared to around 100,000 weekly prescriptions in January 2024.
Dave: We have reached broad formulary access for Wigovi in the U.S. and continue to work on expanding it further. Currently, Wigovi has coverage for around 55 million people living with obesity in the United States.
Dave: In international operations, WGOBI has now been launched in more than 15 countries, underlining our commitment to reaching more patients.
Next slide, please.
Dave: Thank you for watching. This is a production of the Center for Autism and Related Disorders.
Dave: Our rare disease sales increased by 9%. This was driven by sales in North America operations of 20% while sales in international operations were unchanged.
Dave: sales of rare endocrine disorder products increased by 31% driven by launches of Segroja, an increased nortertropin supply, as well as a positive impact from gross to net sales adjustments in the U.S.
Dave: Rare blood disorder sales increased by 3%, driven by an increase in hemophilia B sales.
Martin: Now I will turn it over to Martin for an R&D update.
Thank you, Dave. Please turn to the next slide.
Martin: In December, Novo Nordisk released the headline results from the first pivotal trial with cariclosema, Redefine 1, in people living with obesity or overweight.
Martin: Before getting into the results, I would like to quickly touch upon the trial design.
Martin: Based on the CAGRI-SEMA weight loss data observed in Phase 1 and 2 trials, we incorporated a flexible protocol in Redefine1.
Martin: The protocol followed a 16-week titration schedule and permitted dose modifications based on tolerability or concerns about excessive weight loss throughout the trial.
Martin: Redefine One was a 68-week efficacy and safety trial with 3,417 people enrolled.
Martin: People were randomly assigned to either receive Cagliosema, a fixed-dose combination of Cargillum type 2.4mg and Tumagal type 2.4mg.
Martin: or categorinotype 2.4 mg in monotherapy, semaglutide 2.4 mg in monotherapy, or placebo.
Martin: In line with regulatory guidelines, the purpose of the trial was to demonstrate superiority of calcusema over placebo, calquilintide, and semaglutide on body weight reduction.
Next slide, please.
Martin: Previous trials and our modeling indicated that Cagliosema could provide a potential weight loss of approximately 25%.
Martin: While the 25% weight loss was not observed in Redefine1, we are encouraged by the weight loss profile of Cagrisema which stands out as one of the most substantial weight reductions observed in a clinical phase III-VIII file.
Martin: Kagri Semme demonstrated a superior and clinically relevant loss of 22.7% of body weight after 68 weeks compared to reductions of 11.8% with Kagril inside.
16.1% was Imaglutite and 2.3% was Placebo.
Martin: In the trial, Kagura-sema appeared to have a safe and well-tolerated profile.
Martin: The most common adverse events were gastrointestinal, with the vast majority being mild to moderate and decreasing over time, in line with GFP1 receptor agonist class.
Generally, we observed a low level of gastrointestinal adverse events.
Martin: People on Capricemia experience 2.8 gastrointestinal events per patient per year, compared to 1.2 on Capricillin side and 2.6 on Temaglutide, 2.4 mg.
Martin: Discontinuation rates due to gastrointestinal related adverse events were also low, with 3.6% in the CAGWIS-M arm.
Martin: For both the cagrillentide and the semaglutide arm, the gastrointestinal discontinuation were 1.3%.
Martin: Notably, the severity of gastrointestinal events for Cagliosema was similar to the comparator.
Martin: As a reference, in Step 1, the Maglutite 2.4 mg had a discontinuation rate due to gastrointestinal related adverse events of 4.5%.
Lastly, the overall discontinuation rate for Kagoshima was 11.7%.
Martin: For comparison, semaglutide showed a discontinuation rate of 17% in step 1.
in the Redefined One trial.
Martin: The extent of dose modification prompted us to conduct a more in-depth analysis of people receiving the highest dose at 68 weeks, followed by an analysis of people on lower doses at 68 weeks.
Martin: In the following slide, I will guide you through a post-hoc analysis based on these two subgroups and share some reflections and considerations regarding the data.
Next slide, please.
Martin: The first subgroup comprised 57% of the total population and consisted of people in the trial who ended on the highest
2.4 mg dose of Cagliosema at 68 weeks.
Martin: The second group accounted for 29% of the population consisted of those who were at lower doses of caclosema at 68 weeks.
Martin: The remaining 14% of the population were on either treatment pause or have been discontinued at 68 weeks.
Thank you.
Martin: The first job group achieved a 12.7% mean weight loss at 20 weeks.
and a full 22.2% mean weight loss at 68 weeks.
Martin: The weight loss trajectory for the first subgroup did not plateau at 68 weeks. Cagri-Semmer showed a high tolerability, with fewer gastrointestinal adverse events.
Martin: compared to semaglutide 2.4 milligram. This suggests that additional weight loss could be achieved with a trial of longer duration.
Martin: The second subgroup showed a potent treatment response by achieving 15.9% mean weight loss at 20 weeks and 25.1% at 68 weeks, approaching a normal BMI at the end of treatment.
The average treatment dose was 1.1 mg at 68 weeks.
Martin: Those reductions occurred from the mid-trial to end-of-treatment and did not occur to gastrointestinal adverse events alone.
Martin: This group of people could potentially achieve higher weight loss with higher doses through increased focus on dose escalation, dose re-escalation, as well as longer treatment duration.
Martin: Overall, CAT resemblance demonstrates a potent treatment response resulting in a superior weight loss efficacy compared to semaglutide.
Martin: Furthermore, the redefined WANT data indicate that a patient-centric and individualized treatment regimen
Martin: which take the initial dose escalation, dose re-escalation, and trial duration into account, could potentially enhance efficacy of calcruzema while maintaining a favorable safety profile.
Martin: While it may appear counterintuitive that lower doses of glycemic leads to more substantial weight loss, this pattern is consistent with the observations from the step and step-up trials with somatic result.
Martin: However, it appears to be more pronounced with the potent biology of Capuchin.
Martin: In addition, we have previously observed varied responses to anti-obesity medications.
across different populations.
Martin: Based on the insights from Redefine 1 and the reflection I have just shared with you on the data, we will further explore characteristic semipotential in a new Phase III trial, Redefine 11.
Martin: The trial will have a longer trial duration and focus on dose escalation and re-escalation.
Martin: Turning towards the next step for Calcusema, we're currently anticipating the results of Redefine2 in the first quarter of 2025.
Martin: The Redefined 11 trial will be initiated in the first half of 2025, and we now expect to submit calculus statements in the first quarter of 2026.
Martin: The adjusted timelines are not related to the Redefined Development Program, but driven by supply chain readiness when launching into a large and rapidly expanding market like obesity.
Next slide, please.
Martin: Earlier this year, Novo Nordisk announced the headline results from the phase 3 trial STEP-UP with a magnetite 7.2mg.
Martin: The 72-week advocacy and safety trial investigated subcutaneous semaglutide 7.2 mg compared to semaglutide 2.4 mg and placebo.
Martin: 1,407 people with obesity were enrolled in the trial with a BMI of 30 or higher without diabetes.
The mean baseline body weight was 113 kilograms.
Martin: When evaluating the effects of treatment when all people adhere to treatment after 72 weeks, semaglutide 7.2 milligram achieved a superior weight loss of 20.7% compared to a reduction of 17.5% of semaglutide 2.4 milligram and 2.4% with placebo.
Martin: In the trial, semaglutide 7.2 mg appeared to have a safe and well-tolerated profile.
Martin: We have also completed this step-up trial in an obese population with type 2 diabetes And are now evaluating the next steps in light of our overall obesity portfolio. Next slide, please.
Thank you. Thank you.
Martin: Recently, we announced the headline results from the Phase 1b-2a trial with once weekly subcutaneous amicretin in 125 people with overweight and obesity.
Martin: The trial was a combined single ascending dose, multiple ascending dose, and dose response trial investigating three different maintenance doses with a total treatment duration of up to 36 weeks.
The primary endpoint was treatment in emergent adverse events.
Martin: The most common adverse events with ametretin were gastrointestinal, and the vast majority were mild to moderate in severity. Overall, the safety profile of ametretin was consistent with increase in based therapies.
Martin: People in the dose-response part of the trial had a baseline body weight of 92.7 kilograms.
Martin: People treated with admicretin achieved an estimated body weight loss of 0.7%, 16.2% and 22% at their respective doses.
This was achieved on 1.25mg, 5mg and 20mg spectra.
Martin: This compared to a body weight gain of between 1.9% to 2.3% for people treated with placebo.
Martin: The effect of treatment was evaluated if all people were adherent to treatment.
Martin: We are very encouraged by the results for subcutaneous hemorrhaging for people living with overweight or obesity.
Martin: And based on the results, we are now planning for further clinical development of amitretin in people with overweight obesity. Next slide, please.
Martin: Overall, we have a competitive portfolio in obesity underlined by the recent readouts from Cagliosema, Semaglutide 7.2 mg, and Subcutaneous Hemocretin.
Martin: Our strategic ambitions remains to build a portfolio of superior treatment options in obesity, heart disease, stroke and stroke prevention.
Martin: and a focus on efficacy, safety and scalability, be it injectable or oral.
Our marketing portfolio started with Succenta.
Martin: We then set the bar with the Wigoas Attractive Clinical Profile with double-digit weight loss and a proven cardiovascular risk reduction from the SELECT trial.
Martin: In the short term, we expect to increase our competitiveness further with 7.2 mg semaglutide as well as all semaglutide 25 mg.
and others. Thank you.
Martin: As illustrated on the right-hand side of the slide, the next generation anti-obesity medications in our pipeline feature multiple different modes of action that can address different segments in the obesity market.
Martin: further development based on the promising amicretin phase 1-2 data and the initiation of our triple agonist phase 1 trial.
Martin: We look forward to sharing data from all of these trials when they read out. Next slide, please.
Martin: Turning to the upcoming R&D milestones, we look forward to a year with many exciting trial readouts. Before turning to 2025, I would like to highlight a few milestones from the last few months.
Martin: We continue our focus on investigating how our innovative treatments impact related comorbidities in diabetes and obesity.
Martin: This is based on the data from the flow trial and positive opinion from the European regulatory authorities and a US FDA approval.
Martin: We have also submitted the label extension applications for all tamaglites at 14 mg on the Rebeltus plant to the US and European authorities based on the data from the so-called Altenform.
Thank you. Thank you.
Martin: Further, we have resubmitted the results from the STEP-HEF-PEF trials with a magnetite 2.4 mg in people with obesity to the US FDA.
Martin: The submission includes data from Flow and Shoal, further substantiating the benefits of semaglutide for patients with heart failure.
Martin: Excitingly, we have initiated a Phase I trial with a once-weekly subcutaneous triagonist in people with overweight or obesity in the fourth quarter of 2024.
Martin: Moving to the milestone in 2025, I would like to start with a few exciting data readouts in type 2 diabetes in the second half that supports our aspirations of raising the innovation bar.
Martin: Specifically, we expect the first phase 3 results from Cacosema, as well as phase 2 results for both subcutaneous amecretin and once weekly DIP-DLP1 coagulant.
Martin: Moving to obesity and the first half of 2025, we are now expecting to submit or to magnify 25 mg for people with obesity to the U.S. regulatory authorities in the first quarter.
Martin: Furthermore, we also expect Phase II results from the once-weekly GLP-1-GIP co-agonist.
Martin: For Kaggle SEMA specifically, we expect results from Redefine2 and Redefine4 during 2025 and to initiate the new Redefine11 trial later during the first half of 2025.
Martin: Within rare disease we expect regulatory submissions of MIMADE in the US and in the EU in the second half of 2025.
Martin: Within cardiovascular and emergent therapy areas, we look forward to the readout of the EVOKE and the EVOKE Plus trials in patients with early Alzheimer's disease.
That will go to you, Karsten.
Karsten: Thank you Martin. Please turn to the next slide. In 2024 our sales grew by 25% in Danish kroner and by 26% at constant exchange rates driven by both operating units.
Martin: In the U.S., sales growth was positively impacted by growth-to-net sales adjustments.
Martin: The gross margin increased to 84.7% compared to 84.6% in 2023. The increase is mainly driven by positive price impact due to growth to net sales adjustments in the US and the positive product mix. This is partially countered by costs related to ongoing capacity expansions.
Martin: Sales and distribution costs increased by 9% in Danish kroner and by 10% at constant exchange rates. In North America operations, the cost increase is mainly driven by promotional activities related to Wicovi.
Martin: In international operations, the increase is mainly related to obesity care market development activities. We go with launch activities as well as promotional activities for GLP-1 diabetes products.
Martin: Additionally, the increase in sales and distribution costs is negatively impacted by an adjustment to legal provisions in 2023.
Martin: Research and development costs increased by 48%, both measured in Danish kroner and at constant exchange rates.
Martin: The increase in cost is mainly reflecting increased late-stage clinical trial activity, increased early research activities, as well as impairment losses related to intangible assets.
Martin: Administration costs increased by 9% in both Danish kroner and at constant exchange rates.
Martin: Operating profit increased by 25% measured in Danish kroner and by 26% at constant exchange rates.
Martin: Operating profits is positively impacted by growth to net sales adjustments in the U.S. and negatively impacted by impairment losses.
Martin: EBITDA increased by 32% measured in Danish kroner and by 33% at constant exchange rates.
Martin: Net financial items showed a net loss of 1.1 billion Danish Kroner compared to a net gain of 2.1 billion Danish Kroner last year. This primarily reflects losses on non-hedge currencies.
Martin: The effective tax rate was 20.6% in 2024 compared to 20.1% in 2023.
Martin: Net profit increased by 21% and diluted earnings per share increased by 22% to 22 Danish kroner and 63 øre. Net profit and diluted earnings per share are impacted by the impairments related to intangible assets.
Martin: Cash flow from operating activities in 2024 was realized at 121 billion Danish Kroner, an increase of 12 billion Danish Kroner versus 2023.
Martin: Absolute allocation of 47 billion Danish kroner to Capex for supply chain and around 82 billion Danish kroner related to cattle and site acquisition results in free cash flow of minus 14.7 billion Danish kroner.
This compares to 68.3 billion Danish Kroner in 2023.
Please go to the next slide.
Martin: In line with our strategic aspiration to deliver attractive capital allocation to shareholders, we have returned 64.3 billion Danish Kroner to shareholders via dividends and share buyback during 2024.
Martin: At the Annual General Meeting on March 27, 2025, the Board of Directors will propose a final dividend of 7.90 kroner for a total 2024 dividend of 11.40 kroner, including the interim dividend paid in August 2024.
Martin: This is a 21% increase compared to 2023, making it the 29th consecutive year with increasing dividend per share.
Martin: In addition to the dividends, the 20 billion Danish Kroner share buyback program for the past 12 months has been concluded.
And we'll also capture Kirsten Pryor.
Martin: prioritizes attractive investments into the company, including supply chain expansions and R&D, as well as consistent dividend payouts. Consequently, following the further step-up in CapEx, Nurnorsk is not initiating a new share buyback program at this point in time.
Please go to the next slide.
Martin: We continue the growth momentum in 2025 and expect the sales growth to be between 16 and 24% at conscious exchange rates.
Martin: This is based on several assumptions as described in the company announcements.
Martin: The guidance reflects expectations for sales growth in both North America operations and international operations. The sales growth is expected to be mainly driven by volume growth of GH1-based treatments for obesity and diabetes care, also reflecting our continued scaling of our supply chain.
Martin: Our reported sales are expected to be 3 percentage points higher compared to constant exchange rates, and operating profit is expected to be 5 percentage points higher compared to constant exchange rates.
Martin: We expect that the operating profit will grow between 19 and 27% at constant exchange rates.
Martin: This primarily reflects the sales growth outlook and continued investments in current and future growth drivers within research, development, and commercial.
Martin: A negative mid-single-digit operating profit growth impact related to the acquisition of the three Katalin manufacturing sites is also included in the guidance.
Martin: For 2025, we expect net financial items to amount to a loss of around 9 billion Danish Kroner. This mainly reflects losses on hedge currencies, primarily the US Dollar, and increased interest expenses related to funding of the Catalan side transaction as the acquisition.
was mainly debt-financed.
Martin: The effective tax rate for 2025 is expected to be in the range of 21 to 23 percent. The increase compared to 2024 is mainly driven by country and therapy sales mix.
Martin: CAPEX is expected to be around 65 billion Danish Kroner in 2025, reflecting expansion of the supply chain.
Martin: In the coming years, CapEx to Sales Ratio is still expected to be in the low double digits.
The free cash flow is expected to be...
Martin: 75 to 85 billion Danish Kroner, reflecting the sales growth, favorable impact from rebates in the U.S., countered by increased investments in manufacturing facilities.
Lars: That covers the outlook for 2025. Now back to you, Lars.
Thank you, Karsten. Please turn to the final slide.
Lars: We are pleased with the performance in 2024, where 26% sales growth reflects that more than 45 million people are now benefiting from our treatments. Further, we completed the acquisition of three Catalan sites.
Lars: And during the year we progressed our R&D pipeline, including obesity projects such as Cracosema and Emicretin.
Lars: With attractive 2025 outlook, we will continue to focus on strong commercial execution and the progression of our early and late stage R&D pipeline and on the expansion of our production capacity. With that, I would like to hand the word back to Jacob.
Jacob: Thank you, Lars. Next slide, please. With that, we're now ready for the Q&A, where I kindly ask all participants to limit her or himself to one or maximum two questions, including sub-questions.
Jacob: Operator, we are now ready to take the first question, please.
Speaker Change: Thank you. As a reminder, to ask a question, you will need to press star 1 and 1 on your telephone and wait for your name to be announced. To withdraw your question, please press star 1 and 1 again.
We will now take your first question.
Speaker Change: One moment please. And your first question comes from the line of Richard Foster from J.P. Morgan. Please go ahead.
Hi, thanks for taking my questions. Two questions, please.
Speaker Change: Firstly on Mugovi, could you give us some more details of what's holding back the US prescriptions in the last quarter of 24 and the early part of 25? What can you do about it? And how should we anticipate the growth in prescriptions from here?
Speaker Change: And second question, just thanks for all the dosing data, but based on that and what you've seen in Redefine 1 and the tolerability that you've shown, how do you think the profile of Kagris Emma will stack up versus Z-Band in Redefine 4? Thanks very much.
Thank you.
Speaker Change: Thank you Richard for those two questions. On the first one, on the COVID prescriptions trends, we'll turn to you Dave.
Thank you, Richard, for the question.
Speaker Change: I think it's important to remember that the total market for anti-obesity medicines grew in the U.S. last year by 160 percent, and so the story continues to be about market expansion for obesity.
Speaker Change: Prescriptions. And so the scaling efforts are recognized and that's being pulled through in the market. In the beginning of the year, and this is normal, there are movements in benefit plans and patients changing in terms of their co-pays and co-insurance.
Speaker Change: This is normal, but it does have an impact with total prescriptions in the beginning of the year, as well as coming through holidays, as well as Martin Luther King holiday in the beginning of the year.
Speaker Change: It's important to remember we're treating 1.2 million patients with WGOI today, and we have access of 55 million people living with obesity in the U.S. Driving new prescriptions is of course our focus.
Speaker Change: And what we can say about that is we are shipping more of the starter doses.
Speaker Change: as we speak. Those starter doses are making their way through the supply chain from the wholesaler to retailer which is also new for us to have this amount of new starter doses. And now it's our opportunity to pull through this market expansion and connect more people with Wigovi in the U.S.
Thank you.
Speaker Change: Thank you, Dave. And then we turn to the second question, which goes to you, Martin, on current thoughts on the cacosema profile, also looking ahead to Redefine4. Yeah, thank you very much, Richard. So, Redefine4, as you rightly mentioned, is a head-to-head trial cacosema versus triceptide.
Speaker Change: The first statistical testing will be non-inferiority, and based on what we've seen with Redefine1, there's a good assumption that that will come out with non-inferiority established. Second test is the test for superiority.
Speaker Change: And again, I think it's too early to speculate, but we will see the data when we see them. But that is test number two.
Speaker Change: Thank you, Martin and thank you, Richard. Then we are ready for the next set of questions, please.
Thank you.
Harry Septon: Your next questions come from Harry Septon from UBS. Please go ahead.
Harry Septon: Hi there. Thank you for taking my questions. This is Harry Sester from UBS. I'd like to start with the Redefine One results.
Speaker Change: And can we address this difference between the weight loss profile that doesn't show a typical dose response?
Speaker Change: He talked about the fact that fewer patients finished at the higher dose than the initial results as a potential explanation for the weaker weight loss versus your modelling.
Speaker Change: but the data you've shown today somewhat contradicts this. So what have you seen to explain this discrepancy? Is it a speed of titration issue or are there other factors?
Speaker Change: you can help explain this, and what read-across can you take from these data for the imminent Redefined-2 data?
Speaker Change: My second question is following the amicretin subcut data, how do you see the positioning of this product versus Cagri Sema in the future?
Speaker Change: Do we need incremental efficacy from here, or does the benefit from amicretin more come from scalability and the flexibility of both the injectable and oral formulations? And what is the timing for the initiation of your Phase 3 program for amicretin? Thank you.
Speaker Change: Thank you, Harry, for those two questions. On the first one, in terms of redefining one data, we'll turn it to you, Martin.
Speaker Change: Yeah, thank you very much Harry. So first of all, I think it's important to call out we don't really see discrepancies We see a picture emerging that we've that we've seen
Speaker Change: to an extent in the step, certainly in the step up study programs.
Speaker Change: and we see that also now in Redefine One. We see a group of people who titrate with very strong safety and solubility to the fullest dose. They have a very substantial weight loss.
Speaker Change: And specifically in Redefine 1, we see the potential for even further weight loss with longer treatment duration.
Speaker Change: Then we see some early responders who clearly lose weight faster than the other group. They also appear to have the potential to lose more than the other group.
Speaker Change: loses actually a mean of 25.2 percentage point at the end of trial, approaching a BMI that would indicate non-obesity.
Speaker Change: That actually then plays into a dynamic because these patients have
slightly more gastrointestinal side effects.
Speaker Change: and therefore they start to titrate a little bit down. That, again, is a big potential because they can actually lose more weight.
Speaker Change: It's, to your point, allowing them to do individual dose titration, titrate a little bit slower, and then coming up to higher doses, balancing the speed of their weight loss and the gastrointestinal side effects.
Speaker Change: Obviously this population also seems to be benefiting from an even or could be benefiting from an even longer trial duration and that basically means we see two distinct groups one being what we call early or high responders but both groups actually showing more weight loss potential.
Speaker Change: We can utilize that in the future programs for chagrosema, specifically starting with Redefine 11, but we can certainly also use those data when we design the amicretin program using the same biology.
Speaker Change: Thank you, Martin. And for the second question on emigrants and having a portfolio, I'll turn to you, Camilla.
Camilla: Thank you very much. Yeah, there's no doubt that with the size of the obesity market, it will be a key strength to have a broad portfolio of products like Martin shared with you in the slides just before.
Camilla: We believe we have a very strong portfolio that enables us to work with optionality, optionality in terms of different patient segments.
Camilla: Remember, that is a very few percentage points of the total population that is currently being treated.
And I think historically, we've talked about sort of...
Camilla: the people with obesity as one group, but as we expand our portfolio we will be able to target different needs of different segments as well as different geographies. So we have remained very confident of course in Cagri-Sema and also in Americretin.
Speaker Change: Thank you Camilla, thank you Martin and thank you Harry for those two questions. Then we are ready for the next set of questions please.
Speaker Change: Thank you. Your next questions come from the line of Michael Nedelkovic from TD Cowen. Please go ahead.
Michael Nedelkovic: Thank you for the questions. I have two. My first is on supply. Lilly has indicated that it can boost its increase in supply by 60% in the coming months.
Michael Nedelkovic: You all have never quantified capacity, but do you feel that your efforts to boost production will be competitive with this number?
Michael Nedelkovic: This might be an oversimplification, but if we grant that prescription trends in the U.S. are largely reflective of supply rather than demand, then it would seem your competitor may be ramping capacity more swiftly. Do you think that's a fair interpretation?
Michael Nedelkovic: And then my second question is on oral semaglutide 25 milligrams, which you now plan to file for weight loss in the U.S.
Michael Nedelkovic: It's notable that you are not pursuing the 50 milligram dose.
Speaker Change: I assume this decision was related to supply considerations, but please correct me if I'm wrong. And how should we think about the eventual launch of this offering? Just as an example, you've used the term TAPT as it relates to Wegovy's ex-U.S. launches. Should we also think of Oros and Maglutide's weight loss launch as TAPT?
Speaker Change: Thank you, Mike, for those two questions, one on supply and then on launch considerations around oral SEMA. Firstly, on supply, we turn to you, Karsten.
Yeah, Michael, thanks for this question.
Speaker Change: Let me start basing my answer on the slide we showed earlier on. So we scaled our patient reach with the NOVO GLP-1s by almost a factor of three over the last three years. And latest data point, and this is based on IQVIA, latest data point, we are serving almost two-thirds of the global GLP-1 market, and then competition sitting on the remaining one-third.
Speaker Change: more, in absolute numbers, more than any other competitor in this market. So, factually, we have grown faster in terms of serving more patients over the last 12 months based on IQVIA. Then I'll say, as a forward-looking statement, in terms of our scaling into 2025, with the guidance we have...
Speaker Change: and share of the total portfolio, then you get to a volume scaling of our GF1 franchise in terms of patients served nicely in excess of 30% into this year. So I think we are very competitive in terms of scaling.
Thank you. Thank you.
Speaker Change: Thank you, Karsten. And then on oral semaglutide, 25 mg, probably too early to talk about launch and positioning, but the high-level value proposition of oral semaglutide.
Speaker Change: A high-level value propositioning back to what we talked about before, it is likely that there will be an oil segment in obesity as there has been actually also before, but due to tolerability issues, this has been quite small. Now we have...
Speaker Change: Allsubacrotide 25 mg, and of course that gives us an opportunity to launch this in selected markets.
Speaker Change: And with that, we will, of course, benefit from the benefits of semaglutide in general, and this gives us optionality to address an oil more specifically. So that's part of our plans and our border portfolio.
Speaker Change: Thank you Camilla and thank you Mike for those two questions, then we turn to the next set of questions please.
Sachin Jain: Thank you. Your next questions come from Sachin Jain, Bank of America. Please go ahead.
Sachin Jain: Hi, thanks very much. Thanks for answering my two questions. Similar topics, if I may. So, back on Cagri-Sema, Martin, thanks for the detailed explanation. I was wondering if Dave or Camilla could touch on how you're going to translate that into a commercial message. So, very simply, what doses should patients be on, how titrate, and at the doses they get to, what do you think the protocol versus TERSA is?
Speaker Change: and how are you thinking about positioning this relative to Wigowi? It just seems quite confusing to me.
Speaker Change: And the second one is just for Karsten, on the wide guidance range, you started with 8% as you did at the beginning of last year. Bottom to top end, what are the key areas of uncertainty or deltas for you as you think about 25? Thank you.
Thank you for watching!
Speaker Change: Thank you, Sachin, for those two questions. Firstly, on cacosema and the value of individualized treatment on eukaryota.
Speaker Change: Yes, so Cacrosema, of course, with the results we have seen, we are very confident in the product, we are very confident in our portfolio.
Speaker Change: And it's really the optionality that we are working with on how to target specific segments and specific geographies. I think it's a little bit premature for us to reveal our full commercial approach as to how we are utilizing the benefits of this.
Speaker Change: these different options that we have in our pipeline. But it is the sum of the pipeline that we just talked to that will really enable us to address more and more people living with obesity.
Speaker Change: So, that's how we are moving forward, and why you will also see us, you know, addressing different types of products with different optionalities, as we just discussed, oil, nalcacrocema, emicretin, and of course also higher-dose V. coli. This is all part of our opportunity play in obesity.
Thank you. Thank you.
Camilla: Thank you Camilla. Then on the second question we turn to you Karsten.
Karsten: reach more patients and more markets, and of course negative supply fluctuations would impact the other way. So that's number one. Number two is competition and magnitude of competition.
Karsten: And that swing factor can also both be positive and negative, so that would be the main three factors. Thank you.
Speaker Change: Thank you, Karsten, and thank you to you as well, Sachin. Then we're ready for the next question, please.
Richard Parks: Thank you. Your next question comes from the line of Richard Parks, BNP Paribas. Please go ahead.
Richard Parks: Oh yes, thanks for taking my questions. Firstly on Cagliosema, and I've got to say I'm still a little bit confused on the inverse dose response. I'm just wondering why has this not been seen in any other trials to date? And should I not just conclude that not all patients need the 20% plus?
Richard Parks: weight loss that can be achieved. So I'm just wondering kind of why that's not been seen before.
Richard Parks: And then, in terms of the prescription demand currently, you flagged formulary changes, but your net access sounds like it hasn't changed.
Richard Parks: Some kind of big formulary changes, but the net access overall is the same. I'm just wondering what impact compounding pharmacies are having on demand currently. Thank you very much.
Thank you for watching!
Speaker Change: Thank you for those two questions. Firstly on Kakasema, we will turn to you Lars. Thank you Richard. So just to give a perspective on how we see this.
So...
Speaker Change: Martin alluded to that also in the past have we seen a difference in how patients respond.
But that has been based on...
Thank you very much.
and in our view...
We have to relate to that when you...
Speaker Change: These differences will be amplified, so the fact that patients are different and respond in different ways means that we'll see increasingly as we move up and develop highly efficacious products, you'll see this difference in response.
Speaker Change: And, in terms of use in the market, also to the prior question, I think it's perhaps less confusing for physicians than we believe, because they're actually used to patients responding quite differently on treatments.
Speaker Change: And that goes for obesity, but it also goes for any, say, chronic disease that patients respond differently to medicines.
Speaker Change: So physicians are used to a more, say, patient-centric treatment regime. I think what really matters here is that we have a highly potent biology that kind of does the job.
Speaker Change: And then I think it's up for the rest of us to acknowledge that this is a new, you know,
Speaker Change: sign we get in large-scale clinical development, but it's really linked to the potency of the product. And I anticipate that we see similar signals as we develop equally potent biologies in the future.
Speaker Change: I'm quite comfortable with the profile and also that it works for patients and that it will also work in the hands of physicians who are used to more individualized treatment of patients.
Speaker Change: Thank you for the question, Richard. It's important that we reiterate that it's our belief that building a sustainable obesity market for the long term is through market access and having patients have a reasonable co-pay and access to the medicine. I'm happy to say for 2025 that we have maintained our broad access for Wegovy, covering 55 million people with obesity. There were no major changes with opt-ins and opt-outs.
Speaker Change: It's important to note that these patients have Wigovi available at a low out-of-pocket cost.
Speaker Change: more than 80% of them paying less than $25 for a prescription and This is also in addition. We have now more than 20 states that also cover Wigoby through Medicaid
Speaker Change: You also had a question about compounding. Our latest market intelligence does tell us and show us that it is having an impact and it is growing faster than we had anticipated.
Speaker Change: Our focus is on patient safety and educating patients and providers that this is not SEMA, and also to work with the regulators to curtail compounding as well.
Speaker Change: Thank you Dave and thank you Richard for those two questions. Then we turn to the next questions please.
Speaker Change: Thank you. Your next question comes from Emily Fields from Barclays. Please go ahead.
Speaker Change: Just to follow up on the compounding point, for a few months now, all the doses of semaglutide have been marked as available, and the FDA drug shortage looks like, but the molecule is still marked as in shortage.
When do you expect that to be removed and then?
Speaker Change: would that lead to a similar kind of off-ramp from the FDA for the compounders that we saw FDA issue a directive in December for trizepatide? And then secondly, another question on Redefine One.
Speaker Change: you know, the gray curve for the patients that were on a lower dose at the end of treatment, is it fair to say that a significant number of those patients did go up to 2.4 and then titrated down, whether for tolerability or, you know, that they were very, very fast responders to the weight loss? Thank you.
Speaker Change: Thank you, Emily. And on the first one, the follow-up question on compounding, we'll turn to you, Dave.
Dave: Yeah, as you mentioned, we are still listed on the drug shortage list. We are in active dialogue with FDA. It is ongoing.
Dave: Of course, as we increase the resilience in our supply, that has an impact on our ability to get off the drug shortage list. We are focused on doing that as fast as possible, as we believe this will help our further actions to curtail compounding in the future.
Speaker Change: Thank you, Dave. And then on the early responder curve, we'll turn to you, Martin. Yeah, absolutely. I want to go back to Lars's point that obesity is a complex disease.
Speaker Change: The mean dose at week 20 was around 1.5 mg, indicating that very few actually opted to try the full 2.4 mg dose.
Speaker Change: and and therefore with the weight loss that they accrued, which was then also faster than the other group
Speaker Change: They started to slow down, to balance the speed of their weight loss, their gastrointestinal side effects, but also the fact that they were approaching a level below the definition of obesity.
Speaker Change: And therefore, again, it speaks to the very powerful biology that we see, but also the need to individualize treatment.
And again, I'll just remind you.
Speaker Change: Well, I think Lars has a really good point, patients know how to do this together with their physicians.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Speaker Change: Thanks a lot, Martin, and thank you, Emily, for the two sets of questions. With that, we are ready for the next questions, please.
Speaker Change: Thank you. Your next question comes from the line of Florence Espedes from Bernstein. Please go ahead.
Good afternoon. Thank you for taking my questions.
Speaker Change: Two quick ones, please. First for Dave, could you give us your view on the situation in the U.S. for semaglutide regarding IRA, Infection Reduction Act, because now you're on the list, so could you remind us how you will manage this situation for 2027, and when should we have the final level of rebate? Could you remind us, the process would be great.
Speaker Change: Second question for Martin, on monudabin, maybe could you give us some color on the phase 2E from the kidney trial, not to be on the tolerance, if there is any redoubt.
Speaker Change: on the tolerance side that could maybe help you to design or adjust the rest of the ongoing clinical trials. Thank you.
Speaker Change: Thanks a lot, Florian. On the first one, IRA, of course, I have to speak to you too much, but with that, over to you, Leif. Yeah, thank you, Florian. As expected, semaglutide-containing products, Ozempic, Rebelsis, and Mugove, they are selected for the second round of CMS negotiations.
Speaker Change: As we've stated in the past, we oppose government price setting like we have from the beginning. The process, though, is as follows. The negotiations will end in the beginning of November. The maximum fair price will be published by the end of November, and it will be effective in the first of January 2027.
Speaker Change: And just for background, the rough U.S. channel mix across our portfolio is about 50% commercial, 30% Medicare, 10% Medicaid, and 10% other.
Speaker Change: Thank you, Dave. And on the next question on the Maluna band in diabetic kidney disease, we'll turn to you, Martin. Thank you very much for that question. So, two reminders.
Speaker Change: One being, we never did the acquisition of 1-LunaBand to develop it purely for diabetic kidney disease. Our focus was on the weight loss potential. And second, I'll just remind you that these are small studies, so obviously...
Speaker Change: We try to see them in the context of the full picture. So we are not...
Thank you.
Speaker Change: The study did confirm a weight loss potential for monolunar band.
Speaker Change: It was comparable, albeit with slightly lower rates than in the dedicated obesity study, basically indicating that we can still have an aspiration of exploring this further in Phase 2b.
Speaker Change: with lower doses, looking at weight loss potential, but obviously also, and this has been the intent from the get-go, also ruling out a potential safety concern.
Speaker Change: Thank you very much. Thank you, Martin. Thank you. Yeah, thanks to you as well, Frong. And then we're ready for the next set of questions, please.
Speaker Change: Thank you. Your next question comes from the line of Evan Zygerman from BMO Capital Markets. Please go ahead.
I'm specifically referring to Kaguya-sama.
Speaker Change: Maybe walk me through how you view the ideal product profile of an asset. You know, is it better weight loss, no plateauing, tolerability, longer acting, better delivery? As you think about your portfolio, what would you like to see in kind of your next generation product? Thank you.
Speaker Change: Thank you, Evan. I think on the high level, the obesity question will turn to you, Lars.
Speaker Change: You could say that with former generation products like the Gobi, you could in principle say load patients up and all would say, you know, tolerate the weight loss they see.
Speaker Change: And, you know, also the GI tolerability we know is very good, but when you get into, say, the next generation products, where you amplify the weight loss, you tease out the difference between different patients.
who, you know,
Speaker Change: We're still trying to look into the omics and figure out what defines the difference and we have a lot of data so we can start actually Finding ideas about who will respond in certain ways and you know from a from a speed of weight loss Etc
Speaker Change: So then we're into the topic of, say, quality of weight loss.
Speaker Change: And I think in the early days of obesity, we have all been obsessed by the percentage over time.
And I think that's a problematic ratio because...
Speaker Change: If you have lived with obesity a good part of your life, and suddenly you lose, say, 25, some even more, percent weight loss, in a matter of, say, half a year to a year, that's a very, very dramatic, say,
Speaker Change: change in your life and not necessarily what anyone would like?
Speaker Change: So that's one. And then, of course, we have all the comorbidities.
Speaker Change: And increasingly, I think, with the establishment of CV benefits, you know, liver benefits, etc., it also becomes a matter of, say, the health outcome improvements you have.
Speaker Change: So, in this, say, opportunity space, I think it's important to be able to address those opportunities with different types of agents.
to cater for these differences.
Speaker Change: Short term, as I mentioned before, I think patients together with the physician are quite comfortable in managing this journey.
Speaker Change: And I think we are perhaps struggling a bit in doing the perfect segmentation of what this market will look like, but I think we can look into all the data we have and find ways to also more targeted, direct, specific products to certain subsegments.
So, I think this is another example of...
Speaker Change: the fact that we are in the early days of understanding obesity, how patients are different.
I think it's all an opportunity for us.
Speaker Change: With the breadth of the portfolio we have and all the data we have.
Speaker Change: So, yes, percentage of weight loss matters, but quality of weight loss and benefit on co-mobility, et cetera, also matters, and it's in that total equation that I think we have a really exciting opportunity for continuous leadership in the space. Thank you, Erwin.
Speaker Change: Thank you, Lars, and thank you, Evan, for the questions. Then we have time for two more sets of questions, and let's start with the first one, please.
Speaker Change: Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Luisa Hector from Barenburg. Please go ahead.
Luisa Hector: Hello, thanks for taking my questions. For Redefine 1, could you just comment on what percentage of patients down titrated and any color on the timing at which that happened and perhaps on the highest dose what the discontinuation rate was? And then I wonder if I could ask you a question on amicretin and progression there. So when I pull together your comments on Cagliostoma, the
Luisa Hector: Hippotency, Individual Patient Responses, and then we layer in the proposed FDA guidelines that say Phase II data should be sufficient to capture maximal or near-maximal weight reduction effects with the dosing regime. Do you feel that you have enough data?
Luisa Hector: data to progress into Phase 3 or would perhaps another Phase 2 be advisable? Thank you.
Luisa Hector: Thank you for those two questions, Luisa. I think both of them are for you, Martin. Let's start with the first one, so on the data in Redefine1. Yeah, so first of all, we had these two very clear distinct groups. The larger group of 57% of the people tied to rating 2.4.
Luisa Hector: Just to give you an example, they were at a mean dose of 2.2 mg at 20 weeks, and they then continued to the full 2.4 mg and appeared to stay on that.
Luisa Hector: There were a few patients doing ups and downs, but it would not be meaningful to try to tease them out.
Luisa Hector: while basically securing a weight loss that was higher than what we've seen before, namely 25.2%. At the same time,
This way of allowing patients
to do.
Luisa Hector: I don't want to say personalized titration, but close to, actually allowed us to see the lowest overall dropout ever seen in a phase 3A pivotal trial, but also very low, and again the lowest gastrointestinal dropouts seen in a pivotal trial. And just a reminder, caclizamer in reDefine 1.
Speaker Change: encouraged by the data, and as Lars also alluded to, by employing this individual approach to patients moving forward, we can really leverage the full benefit of not only Kaggle SEMA, but also our pipeline products.
Speaker Change: Thanks for that Martin. Thanks a lot. And then on the second question on amicrotin, we turn to you Martin again and on the next steps. Yes. So as you know, we have generated data on the oral version of amicrotin. They are very consistent with the data that we see with the subcutaneous version.
Speaker Change: We have an ongoing phase 2 trial in patients with type 2 diabetes. Our current assessment is that we live up to the spirit of the FDA draft guidance. Obviously, as in any progression of clinical development, we have to discuss with the regulatory authorities, which we do in short order.
Luisa Hector: Thank you, Martin. And thanks to you as well, Luisa. And then we are ready for a final set of questions, please.
Speaker Change: Thank you. Your final questions today come from the line of Michael Novard from Nordea. Please go ahead.
Speaker Change: Thank you very much, Michael Norbert from Nordea, also two questions.
Speaker Change: The first one, with the data on hand with CACRI-Sema and the flexibility and more sort of individualized treatment as well as sort of your plans for amicresin, have you changed any sort of view on how to sort of weather the LOE on semaglutide in 2032 and the way of sort of replacing Vigovi with either of these drugs?
Speaker Change: try to pin down on how this could look in later stage trials, whether it's just as tolerable as CAC receptor.
Speaker Change: Hi Michael, thanks for those two questions. I think first on the overall view on cacosema and omicrotin, we'll turn to you Camilla, and afterwards on omicrotin tolerability, we'll turn to you Martin.
Speaker Change: Little bit more clarity on different segments. We talked about individualized treatment. We learned more about how each product works
but it only gives rise to us.
Speaker Change: and so the short answer is no and we also continue to of course
Speaker Change: built on a Symaxotype franchise, you just saw the new indications that we got. So full speed on that going forward, but also full speed on the new innovation, simply establishing this full portfolio. So no radical changes to that at all.
Speaker Change: Thank you, Camilla. And then on the amicotin data, too, Martin? Yes.
Speaker Change: Thank you very much. It's early days and obviously what we can say at this point in time is we're working with two powerful biologists. They appear to have similar efficacy but also safety and tolerability potential. And obviously that also means that we have to think in
Speaker Change: the power of the combination biology into our amicretin development program to accrue the full potential both in terms of weight loss but also safety and tolerability and potentially also comorbidities when we do develop amicretin and caglosemin moving forward.
Speaker Change: Thank you Martin and also thank you to you Michael. Now that concludes the Q&A session. Thank you for participating and feel free to contact Investor Relations regarding any follow-up questions that you may have. Before we fully close the call I would like to hand over the word to you Lars for final remarks.
Lars: Thank you, Jacob. I'm very pleased with the 2024 sales growth of 26% driven by our G1 portfolio in both operating units.
Speaker Change: And within R&D we see a strong momentum as we just discussed in our pipeline.
Speaker Change: as underlined by the recent readouts in obesity, both for cagasema and amictritin. Of course, I'm also very pleased with the expected 2025 outlook. We continue to focus heavily on commercial execution and on the progression of our R&D pipeline and the expansion of our production capacity. So the plan is very clear and we know what it takes to execute on this.
Speaker Change: So also thank you from me on behalf of management on your time today. We appreciate the opportunity to discuss our business with you. Thank you very much. Bye bye.
Speaker Change: Thank you. This concludes today's conference call. Thank you for participating. You may now disconnect.
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