Q1 2025 First BanCorp Earnings Call
Marie: Hello everyone and thank you for joining the first Bancorp, first quarter 2025 Financial Results Conference call. My name is Marie and I will be coordinating your call today.
Speaker Change: During the presentation, you can register a question by pressing star followed by one on your telephone keypad. And if you change your mind, please press star followed by two. I will now hand over your host, Ramon Rodriguez, investor relations officer to begin. Please go ahead.
Ramon Rodriguez: Before we begin today's call, it is my responsibility to inform you that this call may involve certain forward-looking statements such as projections of revenue, earnings, and capital structure as well as statements on the plans and objectives of the company's business.
Ramon Rodriguez: The company's actual results could defer materially from the forward-looking statements made due to the important factors described in the company's latest SEC filing. The company assumes no obligation to update any forward-looking statements made during the call.
Ramon Rodriguez: If anyone does not already have a copy of the webcast presentation or press release, you can access them at our website at www.fbbeinvestor.com. At this time, I'd like to turn the call over to our CEO Aurelio Aleman.
Ramon Rodriguez: Thank you Ramon and actually we're up there and don't do everyone at the time for joining our work on today.
Aurelio Aleman: I usually start with, you know, with discussion on the financial performance and then we'll move on to some high-like economic matters.
Aurelio Aleman: Again, you know, we deliver what I consider a very strong port for the franchise, given by the marketing expansion and the positive operating leverage. Place for Prof. W. P. R. O. A. R. E.
Speaker Change: In return, I said we'll solve it at 154 and pay back free prohibition in Congruo by 7%, reaching 125 million during the quarter.
Speaker Change: The project continues to perform quite well as we enter 2025, you know, with Trent, with Trent
Speaker Change: and obviously a proven track record to successfully navigate unforeseen conditions.
while supporting our client, that's really the main goal.
Speaker Change: turning to balance the total law for slightly down on the link or basis.
Speaker Change: I think I mentioned a lot of quarters on the list, I think, you know, every payment that didn't happen and took place this quarter On the other hand, you know, every nation's worth healthy and reach 1.2 million, in line with usually the first quarter.
Speaker Change: On the other hand, you know, the pylon is, we have a healthy pylon in place and it gradually continues to build.
Speaker Change: We continue to work with our client supporting them in this current operating cycle.
Speaker Change: You know, as we know, it's difficult to predict closing of junky deals usually but at this time we continue to sustain our mid-single digit growth for the year that remains unchanged.
Speaker Change: And actually, you know, if we adjust, you know, actually, we actually look to large chunky deals on the deposit side, on the pricing side of about 125 million. So, it's gonna be much better, but I think we're very pleased that the granularity continues to improve.
Speaker Change: credit performance was stable and we continue to see the normalization that we talked about in the consumer toilet trance and early the link was down when compared to the private water.
Speaker Change: Finally, regarding capital, as we always say, we continue to be opportunistic in our approach how to deploy.
Speaker Change: and we respect to complete our 20 million during April , which will raise the gold for the second quarter of £5,000,000 in cost.
Speaker Change: Just as a reminder, we still have 100 million left of the prior year approval and we, you know, obviously as we continue to be opportunistic, we're looking to deploy it in the second half of this year.
please let's turn to slide 5.
Thank you.
Speaker Change: Again, the financial sorts are a product of execution of the teams and a stable economic backdrop which continues to show positive metrics.
Speaker Change: Basic activity continues healthy, obviously in consumer confidence, you know, as of today it's about to be determined.
Speaker Change: based on new policies, fiscal policies and tariffs, which are on the evaluation, see everybody depending to see what the impact is going to be in that popular.
Speaker Change: On the other hand, here today, fiscal government escalation are on by 3% on employment rate, again, another low-time, another low register in the first quarter.
Speaker Change: and when we look at, you know, quarter to day, David and Craig Carcells were 3% and they done the first quarter and played in 24.
Speaker Change: This version of Adalisata really fun, you know, continue and we continue to participate in affordable housing projects primarily and looking into some infrastructure improvement too.
Aurelio Aleman,
Speaker Change: A very important step in converting to the centralized FIS Cloud, our courses, and now we're honest on our courses to find that Cloud.
Speaker Change: and our franchise investment continue in the digital environment, which the data options continue to progress in line with our objectives.
Speaker Change: We still believe this early to assess the broader economic implication of the changes in human policy will have in Puerto Rico, but again we'll keep you updated, I think we'll go back to our judges.
Speaker Change: You know, in the same place looking at, you know, potential implications to our economies and our core customers. So, as I mentioned, you know, full-year guidance remains unchanged, and I guess we'll probably update in the next call in July .
Speaker Change: So despite this concern, we remain committed to our discipline approach of delivering consistent results and creating shoulder value. Now with that I pass it to Orlando to give you a lot more detail on the financial results. Thanks for joining today.
Orlando: Thanks Aurelio. Good afternoon everyone. So earlier just mentioned we recorded another strong quarter, highlighted by the net interest, please come expansion.
Orlando: We are now 77 million in Medincone, which is 47 cents per chair compared to 76 million in our 46 cents we had a last quarter. This once laid to with our average assets of 164.
Orlando: The probation for credit losses for the quarter increase for a million.
It's primarily some...
Orlando: Projected the duration on the consumer real estate part, the commercial real estate price index, I'm sorry, that affected the the allowance for credit losses for commercial and construction loans.
Orlando: and some higher adjustments. We did do a wide area framework to do the uncertainty of the economic environment under considering all the things that are going on with the tariffs.
Orlando: Madden to Resincom for the quarter was $212 million, which is up $3 million versus a prior quarter.
Orlando: The Incondos include a 1.2 million pre-payment penalty collected on a pre-payed commercial loan but it's also net of 2.7 million impact from two less working days in the quarter.
Orlando: Funding cost that drive a lot of this, it was down 5.8 million in the quarter, including the date impact.
Orlando: As the cost of the interest wearing check-in and savings accounts decreased 7 basis points with 145 basis points as a cost.
We also raised her without Johnson Wholesale-Barring Costs.
Orlando: to do a full-quarter effect of the redemption during the fourth quarter of the 50 million in coordinated adventures, and add increasing the average balance of a Puerrajo Lombang advances.
Orlando: We had so much to do during the month on March that were repaid at this quarter.
Orlando: In addition, we had in the quarter unimprovement of 11 basis points in the yield of cash and investment securities.
Orlando: Some of the lower yielding cash flows from the investment portfolio where we invested an orchid to the ferrakound, which is a high rate.
Orlando: On the other hand, the loan portfolio deals a bit decreased to basis points, mostly on the commercial which decreased nine basis points to the reprising of the floating rate component of the portfolio, which was compensated by increases in the yield of the consumer portfolio.
that and that effect
Orlando: The net interest margin dynamics continue to play out well, margin expanded 19 basis points
Orlando: This expansion did include an increase of four basis points which was related to the pre-payment penalty I just mentioned and some higher income on laid fees in the consumer portfolio.
Orlando: The adjusted margin eliminated some of these items was really 448, which is a 15 basis point to speak up from from last quarter.
Orlando: This increased reflexor plant change in asset makes us redeploy the cash flow from the investment, lower yielding investment portfolio to higher yielding earning assets, and also the repayment of the borrowings, the higher cost borrowings.
Orlando: We also had the benefit of the additional withdrawals in funding costs. We achieved what I just mentioned.
Orlando: This quarter we receive approximately 352 million cash flows that were yielding around 1.5%, which obviously we priced at higher rates with benefits coming in the future quarters.
Orlando: At this point, as you may know, a normal clock deposits and stability on the landing side on the long portfolio. We believe that a name should continue expanding over the next few quarters. We benefit from additional reprising opportunities on the investment portfolio cash flows.
Thank you very much.
Orlando: and we also expect approximately 1 billion in additional cash flows during the second half of the year that will also be provided at higher deals.
Orlando: Depending on the timing and amount of rape cuts in the second half of the year, we estimate that a margin should improve approximately 5 to 7 basis points per quarter for the remaining
in terms of all the wrinkle items.
Orlando: It was stable, but we did have a 3.4 million increase related to contingent insurance commission that we're collected during the quarter that happens in the first quarter of every year. And some additional income we had from purchase tax credits.
Orlando: But also we had David and credit car, lower credit, David and credit car processing expenses due to 2.2 million in expense reimbursements will receive in the quarter.
Orlando: On the other hand, compensation expense was $2.5 million higher in the quarter, which it's related to seasonal payroll taxes and $2.9 million in Buenos Aires and sub-based compensation.
Orlando: usually take place in the first quarter, which offset a reduction of 1.6 million related to two less working days in the quarter.
Orlando: If we were to normalize compensation and car expenses, expenses for the quarter would have been 123.9 million.
Orlando: And if we exclude Aurelio, they would have been 125.1 million, which are within the guidance range we had provided in the last call.
Orlando: Last quarter, just to remind you, last quarter, expenses including Aurelio were 125.6 million.
The efficiency ratio for the quarter was 49.6%
Orlando: which compares with 51.6 in the fourth quarter. But if we adjust some of these income and expense items that don't happen every quarter, the efficient ratio would have been approximately 51.3%. Roughly in line with our targets.
Orlando: and now our efficiency ratio will be around 52% considering the changes in expenses and and projected income components.
Aurelio Aleman,
Orlando: In terms of credit quality, the NPAs will increase in the quarter $11 million, which is basically due to an inflow of one non-accual commercial real estate loan in the Florida region that
Orlando: The MPI ratio was 68 basis points to total assets for the quarter.
Orlando: The inflows to non-performing for the quarter were 43.4 million, which is 6.3 million higher than the quarter, basically related to this when a CRE case that went into non-performing. But we did have a reduction of 6.5 million in consumer loan in inflows.
Orlando: We have started to see some normalization trends in consumer credit with consumer loans in early relinquency decreasing by 19.5 million when compared to prior quarter.
Orlando: The allowance for the quarter did increase by 3.4 million, 227.3.
Orlando: and this reflects the higher qualitative adjustments that we incorporated to consider the uncertainty in the economic environment.
Orlando: The ratio of the allowance group for basis points, allowance to loans, group for basis points to 195.
Orlando: Mostly in the commercial side driven by the forecasted deterioration on the commercial real estate price indexes.
Orlando: However, we did see some improvements in the unemployment rate projections on the shorter term which led to two five basis point reduction in the allowance for consumer loans.
Which ended up at 3.78% of loans. [inaudible]
Orlando: Medtarchel for the quarter were 21.4 million or 68 basis points of average loans. It's down 3.2 million.
Orlando: from last quarter, but this reduction in goods includes a recovery of 2.4 million, we recognize related to a box sale of consumer charge of loans we had in the quarter.
Orlando: excluding this recovery in a charge-off to average loans would have been 76 basis points, which is slightly lower than the 78 basis points charge-off rate we had in the fourth quarter.
Orlando: of what we have already redeemed prior quarters. It's only 11 million left of those adventures.
Orlando: We also declared $29.6 million in dividends and repurchased $1.1 million in common stock.
Orlando: in terms of a capital impact, these actions were offset by the earnings obviously, which at the end resulted in high regulatory capital ratios when we compare them to last quarter.
Orlando: During the quarter, we also registered a 7% increase in tangible book value per chair to $10.64
Orlando: Mostly due to an 88-4 million improvement in the fair body of the security side lower the
Orlando: The remaining other comprehensive loss represents $2.91 cents on tangible book value per chair.
Orlando: and now 220 raises points in the tangible common equity range.
So Aurelio, just mentioned we will continue with
Orlando: with our strategy of deploying access capital as possible to improve franchise and shareholder value and we continue with our execution of our plans.
Orlando: This concludes our prepared remarks, operator, please like we'd like to open the call for questions.
Orlando: Thank you. To ask a question, please press star followed by one on your telephone keypad now. If you change your mind, please press star followed by two. When preparing to ask your question, please ensure that your device is unmuted locally.
Hey. Um...
Good afternoon.
Orlando, I think you've mentioned-
Orlando: some numbers around securities book in terms of yield in terms of cash flowing. And I think you said one and a half percent for the second quarter. Did you share what those yield are coming off in the back half of the year?
Orlando: talking from the top of my head, but they're going to be around 135 to 140, which on the second half of the year.
and then...
Orlando: Could you share just just a ballpark in terms of that assumption you gave around margin expansion, I think five to seven vets?
of what that assumes in terms of.
to do that.
[inaudible]
Orlando: We're assuming there are a few things, obviously. We're assuming it's going to be a big couple.
Orlando: When we had done our original estimates for 2025, we were assuming two cuts in the second half of the year. Maybe we're looking at three now.
Orlando: So, you know, that reflects what would be what we can keep on the investment portfolio cash and obviously depending on what the growth of the loan portfolio.
Orlando: It could move a little bit higher than that, but also, you know, it all depends, we were able to move funding costs is quarter a little bit more than we had anticipated, that helped the margin pick up in this quarter.
Orlando: So depending on that, the next border assumptions are based on those numbers I just gave you.
Okay, and just just...
Orlando: You know, we're one and a half percent in the second quarter, back after the year, one three for one four in terms of the cash flow. Just looking out beyond 2025.
Speaker Change: Is it similar levels of cash flowing out of that book and at sort of similar yield coming off, do you see any sort of detail there?
Speaker Change: I don't have, with me, the additional Frank, I need to get that the future years. Remember that duration and the portfolio is not high so that's the amount.
from through March.
Speaker Change: Through March of next year was a million five, that includes that billion, billion five, I'm sorry, that includes that billion
Speaker Change: I just gave you, and the 260, so it's 250 more million in the first quarter of 2026, but I don't have the full report with me here to give you some more indications of the full year.
Speaker Change: Okay, all right. So, at least for the first quarter, you said 250.
and the first quarter, it's about 200.50 P.S. and the first quarter, it's about 200.50 P.S.
Thank you very much. Have a great night.
Speaker Change: Okay, I appreciate it. And I'm just glad if I could just sneak in one more in terms of the commercial mortgage loan or even just commercial mortgage in general and so far. I think they have the one large payoff.
Speaker Change: and you'll talk about it, I think, and it fell from Q to one Q, but just in terms of the general thoughts around...
Speaker Change: Cree, your Cree in Florida, something that you guys are looking to continue to grow and kind of where you're seeing
Speaker Change: Where are you seeing the stress? And if you could just talk about that large payoff, I guess that's by design, maybe a little more detail there. Thanks.
You know, the large pay was in Puerto Rico.
Speaker Change: and the MPA was in Florida, in CRE. The LARP pay off was a refinancing that we did not participate
Speaker Change: based on terms, expected terms, and the one in Florida, I think we put some videos in the release. It's a, we believe it's a one-of-case, it's only a hospitality sector.
Speaker Change: Really good amount of value. We actually don't expect any losses in that one.
Okay. All right, I appreciate it.
Speaker Change: And on the theory from, we continue to re-ename, we have a good pipeline and obviously on the right in Crateria, we continue to move out the balance sheet.
Speaker Change: Our next question is from Brett Rabatin of Halftop DeGroove. Please go ahead.
Greg Rabotin: Hey, thanks for the time. Wanted to ask on the loan origination side, you know, I know
Greg Rabotin: can be a little lumpy, obviously 4Q was really strong, but if I heard correct, the guidance for the year is kind of that mid-single digit number, and just wanted to see if you think that the commercial side...
. . . .
Greg Rabotin: We believe the consumer will grow at a slower pace than prior years.
Greg Rabotin: and we believe that actually we're going to see some growth in residential, which we already actually experienced this border. We chose not the case if you look back very slightly growth over the past year or so. So that's the way we see them in seeing that the growth being combined.
Okay.
Greg Rabotin: And then I noticed you guys were didn't roll out the Apple Pay with any color on if that was you know by choice or what was the function there and then if you guys might be looking to do that going forward.
Greg Rabotin: Yeah, we have about, you know, we'll say a dose of improvement to the data functionalities that are currently being worked on. We did launch, you know, Samsung Pay and Google Pay for the MasterCard David side. We are two of them. We do both business and MasterCard.
Greg Rabotin: You're combined with some of all the other functionalities that we continue to do and can't invite in our, in our, to eat the front.
Aurelio Aleman,
Okay.
and then Aurelio, would you consider...
Speaker Change: You know, if you just think about Puerto Rico versus Florida, you know, I know sometimes you said you think there's probably more risk.
Speaker Change: Credit-wise in Florida, then there is in Puerto Rico. What do you think today, you know, just in terms of where you see the credit risk particularly on the commercial side?
Speaker Change: Well, I think I make comments regarding competitive landscape. Obviously Florida, it's more competitive than the positive side, Puerto Rico is competitive here.
Speaker Change: at a different level. Florida has a multiple number of competitors and very, very large times also there. In terms of credit, you know...
Speaker Change: You know, we continue to see a healthy pipeline. You know, we have our on the riding guidelines. The portfolios has performed, you know, if you look at the segregation of the ACL, portfolio has performed really well in Florida. You know,
Speaker Change: cases that we see is a smarter portfolio than Puerto Rico, so you know, you have less ground
Speaker Change: But, you know, at this point, you know, we continue to see Freud as a healthy portfolio. We have very limited office there, small, and it's a well-diversified book, so.
Speaker Change: Puerto Rico, when we say slower race on the CRDs, remember there was no construction built for many years in Puerto Rico and as the values didn't increase rapidly, so long to values are quite healthy in in a Puerto Rico portfolio, so that's why...
I'm trying not to engage with those [inaudible]
Okay, appreciate all the color guys.
Thank you, Brett.
Speaker Change: Our next question comes from the line of Steve Moss of Freeman James. Please go ahead.
Good morning.
Steve Moss: Morning. Morning. Maybe just following up on low growth here.
Steve Moss: Morning, maybe followed up on Mogo's here, just kind of curious, you know, with pipeline building.
Steve Moss: Well you know in the last call we actually said that we see long growth you know in the second half of the year.
King, if I recall, we did cover that item.
You know, to be honest, you know, we, you know...
in today's environment with the conclusion of tariff.
Steve Moss: is going to be the answer to your question because some investors are sitting on the sidelines waiting to see if I close this or I don't close so that's happening all over the industry not only for Rico.
will bring conclusion to that.
Steve Moss: That's just a reality that we have to deal with.
Steve Moss: Obviously if you go back to the pandemic, same things happened, you know, all of a sudden we didn't know how to project, you know, that's what I said in my remarks, you know, we're not, you know, we have a good pipeline, we're not modifying our guidance.
So we're very closely working with our clients to...
Steve Moss: to continue moving, moving the needle and supporting them, but you know, market could change.
A Perspective of Risk
Speaker Change: Yeah, I appreciate that color. And then in terms of just kind of curious, you know, on the, you know, I think the phrase was some normalization of consumer credit. You know, I see like the consumer chargers were up year over year. Just kind of curious how you guys are thinking about consumer chargers for the full year.
Steve Moss: We, you know, we expect an improvement on that metric. Yes.
Steve Moss: from prior year. We expected reduction of prior year on the charge of rate on the rate itself. Obviously, it's a bar as it could grow and absolute amounts could grow. Charge of rate should improve year by year.
Speaker Change: Remember, Steve, that we saw a ramp off of the charge of through 2024?
Speaker Change: on the consumer side. So when you compare it to first quarter, we're looking more to part of waters because that's where we say that, you know, that, you know, that, you know,
Speaker Change: The benefit is going to start coming at some of these older ventages that started to be that behave worse are getting grown up.
Speaker Change: So we have that. And we remember we also had the sale of charge of loans that improved the death charge of on the consumer side.
Brett.
That is correct. That is correct.
Speaker Change: Okay, perfect. Well, that's all for me. I appreciate all the call here. Thank you very much.
Speaker Change: Our next question comes from the line of Kelly Motta of KBW. Please go ahead.
Hey, good afternoon. Thanks so much for the question.
Speaker Change: Maybe piggybacking off that margin outlook. I really appreciate all the color on-
Speaker Change: on the security through pricing as well as, you know, your outlook there for five to seven basis points of expansion during the quarter.
Speaker Change: Just turning to the other side of the balance sheet, I would imagine given your securities close that the overall size is going to be dictated by what you're seeing on the deposit side.
Speaker Change: on that note. What are you seeing on the deposit side? I think one of your competitors said that.
Speaker Change: You know there's some some better deposit trends that flows have been improving wondering what you're seeing and your overall outlook here. Give it given what you're seeing from your customers so far. Thanks.
Speaker Change: Obviously, we have an appetite for government deposits, which we are there, and we continue to support.
Speaker Change: As long as, you know, there are 100% quality of their lives have to be, that is a more appetite.
Jorge Verderia, Officer-General of the Argentine Federal Resettlement Agency
Speaker Change: and we continue to monitor. It's really the critical strategy for all of us, but are definitely, really stable.
Speaker Change: and then I make just a small modeling question on these ten-side, I appreciate the outlook on a quarterly basis ahead. It looks like...
Speaker Change: Insurance and Supervisory fees. We're about 2 million lower in length quarter. Was there anything any reversal there? Just wondering if 4Q is a better run rate going forward from here and then any dynamics that may have impacted 1Q?
[inaudible]
Speaker Change: Are you looking versus last year or are you looking versus December ?
Speaker Change: In 1st December . Yes, remember that last year we had a special assessment from the FDIC.
Speaker Change: Let me see, I don't remember anything specific, Kelly. I would have to look for for a look.
some more details to provide you.
Speaker Change: Got it. Appreciate it. Less just a point of clarification for me on the buy-back. I think you had said you've done $28 million in April .
Speaker Change: I need to go back and look at the transcript. I thought you may have implied you might be out for the quarter. Just wanted to clarify that point.
Speaker Change: Yeah, our goal for this quarter was 50 million and we are going to complete that by the end of April .
and you know, we always keep the optionality.
Speaker Change: Right now, the plan is to deploy the 100 million in the second half, but it's always a configuration if a unique opportunity shows up on the market that we act. We have the flexibility.
but the goal is to complete the $50 million.
Speaker Change: Got it. And last one that 448 adjusted margin, that's on a gap basis, right? Not an FTE. I believe he said the interest recovery was 4 basis points.
Thank you.
Speaker Change: That's right, it's on a gap base, not a pool, it's a taxable equivalent.
Awesome. Thank you so much.
[inaudible]
Thank you. Thank you, Kelly.
Speaker Change: Our next question comes from the line of Timur Braziler of Wells Fargo. Please go ahead.
Hi, good afternoon.
Speaker Change: I want to first follow up on the deposit line of questioning.
Speaker Change: I think if I heard correctly, there was some chunkiness and deposit flows.
One Q. You.
Speaker Change: I'm just wondering if you look at that portfolio if there's anything that's expected to exist at the bank here in the near term.
Speaker Change: and just talking to maybe more near term deposit trend. Can you just remind us what kind of this seasonal cadence is for First Bank and what the expectation is, maybe over the next couple of orders on the deposit site?
Speaker Change: I mean, if you look, we had a couple of cases that were the deposits we got at the end of the year.
Speaker Change: I'm meeting at the end of the year meeting in the last quarter of the year.
Speaker Change: One Florida customer, one Puerto Rico customer, that they mentioned that there were the monies where you are marked for some specific projects.
Speaker Change: and they would have been moved before it was going to be at the end of last year. It did not happen. It happened early this year.
Speaker Change: But there's nothing specifically on what we have in the portfolio today, other than there's always going to be some kind of variability under deposits on the public phone side because they have large components that come in and out.
Speaker Change: But on the commercial and retail side, we don't have any, any...
Speaker Change: Like what we knew from what we had at the end of the year on those two specific customers.
Okay, and then...
to that. Maybe just-
Speaker Change: Going back to the Florida conversation, you had talked about the $12.6 million.
Speaker Change: Hospitality Credit. It looks like there was another one that was called out that migrated to classify. Can you just maybe?
Speaker Change: Talks through what that loan was and you know more recently there's some news and just the Florida condo market and how much more expensive that's become. Can you just remind us of what exposure if any you have to the condo market in Florida?
to the condo market.
Well, this one in hospitality was not condo.
Speaker Change: I'm trying to remember which one was moved to classified because that was the one that was moved.
Speaker Change: There's nothing significant that I remember, let me take a look at here, other than this. It's only that one case of Florida. But on the market, in terms of exposures, we don't have any Florida. We don't have any on the construction, we do have some in the mortgage portfolio, but it's very small.
Great. Thank you.
Thank you.
Unnamed Person: We currently have no further questions, so I will hand back to Ramon Rodriguez for closing remarks.
Unnamed Person: Thanks to everyone for participating in today's call. We will be attending Wells Fargo Financial Services Conference in Chicago on May 13th. We look forward to seeing a number of you at this event and we greatly appreciate your continued support. Have a great day. Thank you.
Unnamed Person: This concludes today's call. Thank you for joining. You may now disconnect your lines.
Speaker Change: Aiozatini, Prashanthiïa Shankar, and Ken 발hält lemon www.khenjustice.info CREATE AND MANUFACTURE UNDER THE SAME BD UNHORIZONED