Q2 2025 Stella-Jones Inc Earnings Call
good morning and thank you for sending by
Following the presentation. We will hold a question and answer session to queue up for questions by phone. Please press star 1 and a moderator will contact you. If anyone experiences difficulties during the conference call, please press star zero for operator assistance at any time.
I would like to remind everyone that this conference call is being recorded on Thursday, August 7th, 2025. I will now turn over to David galison. Vice president, investor relations of Stella Jones. Please go ahead.
Thank you, Anna. And good morning, everyone.
Earlier this morning, we issued our press release reporting our results for the second quarter of 2025.
along with our mdna, it can be found on the investor relations section of our website at www.stella.com
As well as seed, our Plus.
as a reminder all figures expressed on today's call are in Canadian dollars unless otherwise stated.
Please note that the comments made on today's call may contain forward-looking information and this information by its nature is subject to risk and uncertainties.
Actual results may differ materially from the views expressed today.
for more for further information on these risks and uncertainties, please consult the company's relevant, filings on Cedar Plus
these documents are also available in the investor relations section of Stella Jones website, at www.stella.com
Additionally, during this conference, call the company May refer to non-gaap measures, which have no standardized meaning under the Gap and are not likely to be comparable to similar, measures presented by other issuers.
for more information, please refer to the company's latest ndna available on Stella Jones website and on Cedar Plus
Lastly, we have prepared a corresponding presentation, which we encourage you to follow along with during this call.
I'll now hand the call over to Eric ishan, president and chief executive officer of Stella Jones for a strategic business update.
Followed by Sal salvina travalini senior vice president and Chief Financial Officer of Stella Jones who will provide a more detailed Financial overview for the quarter. Eric over to you.
Thank you, David. Good morning, everyone and thank you for joining us today.
Our Q2 results, reflected the discipline execution of our strategy for Value creation.
Supported by the scale and reach of our extensive network.
The volumes were softer; we focused on sustaining a strong EBITDA margin and generating healthy cash flows. While executing on our strategy to broaden our infrastructure offering.
With the acquisition of Lockwell, which was completed in Q2, we now have a presence in the steel transmission structure market and the platform to further expand our reach and share of wallet as we leverage our robust customer relationships.
The integration of Lockwell into our business and the operational investment to increase production capacity are well underway, and we are already seeing the benefits of this addition to our network.
I will now turn to a performance overview of our main product categories before, moving to the outlook for the remainder of the year.
Starting with utility polls.
Since the end of Q2, we've seen a pickup in quoting activity, particularly in the Southern Yellow Pine region in the US. We have also started to benefit from new customer agreements secured last year.
while utilities continue to acknowledge the need to upgrade the grid and expand capacity in the current economic environment, certain utilities have maintained a more cautious purchasing Pace with this trend being particularly pronounced in Canada,
Although sales volumes were lower when compared to the strong shipments, recorded in the same period. Last year volumes were above those seen since Q2 2024. And we expect continued Improvement in the second half of the year.
Based on the lower level of demand experience since mid 2024 and the expectation of a return to a mid single digit growth, only towards the end of 2025, we have reduced our utility pole sales outlook for the back half of the year.
we now expect sales growth for utility poles for the remainder of the year to be in the low, single digit, range versus 2024,
Long term to replace aging infrastructure and increase grid resiliency.
Timing of these investments will continue to be influenced by our customers capital expenditure programs and their Capital deployment strategies.
In July, there was a fire incident at our brierfield, Alabama, utility pole, treating facility.
We are pleased to report that Noel Jones employees were injured.
The fired impacted the site's oil treating facility but its CCA treating peeling drying and framing capabilities. Remain unaffected.
With an hours of the incident, the team developed plans to leverage our Network to reallocate the facilities orders.
As a result of this exceptional agility, we do not expect any significant impact on our capacity to fulfill customer orders.
The Swift turnaround.
Following the fire incident highlights, the Strategic value of our extensive network and the capabilities of our experienced management team.
I'm very proud and appreciative of all employees involved for their mobilization and dedicated efforts.
For Railway ties sales in the second quarter continued to be impacted by a Class 1 customer. Now, treating more of their Railway ties internally
This shift follows this customer's, acquisition of the only class 1 railroad that operated its own treating facility.
We expect expect this volume loss to provide headwind for the remainder of the year.
While we anticipate recovering some of the volume shortfall with more commercial sales in the second half of the year, certain project starts are taking longer than expected as a result. We are now forecasting a low single-digit year-over-year decline in railway tie sales.
Railway Thai customers. Continue to look to Stella Jones to deliver solutions to address the evolving needs and optimize their business model.
This allowed us to achieve a mid single-digit sales growth over the last 3 years.
Over the long term. We continue to leverage, our customer relationships to deliver low, single-digit sales growth for this business.
While residential, while residential Lumbers performance, this quarter remain relatively stable. We are encouraged by the improved volume performance. We noted in June.
We anticipate demand for the remainder of the year should trans favorably and we remain optimistic about achieving sales within the 600 to 650 million. Target range for this product category.
As we enter the second half of 2025, we have adjusted our Revenue outlook for the year but remain confident in the long-term sales. Growth trajectory of our infrastructure product categories.
For 2025. We now expect to generate approximately 3.5 billion dollars of sales including the contribution from lochwell versus our previous Outlook of approximately 3.6 billion dollars.
We are maintaining the same level of profitability with the ibido margins over. 17%
Our commitment to return more than 500 million dollars to shareholders. Cumulatively over our Outlook Horizon, while maintaining a leveraged within targeted levels remains unchanged
With that, I will. Now ask sauna to provide a more detailed overview of our second quarter Financial results.
Thank you, Eric and good morning everyone.
Failed for the second quarter, we're down 4% organically compared to a strong prior year quarter largely explained by lower Railway Thai volumes.
While utility pole sales were also down. The decrease was modest and we observed a positive sequential volume trend.
Including the contribution from our recent acquisition and relatively stable sales for residential. Lumber total sales were down about 1% or 15 million dollars compared to Q2 last year.
Despite lower sales, we continue to deliver a solid eida margin of 18.3%.
For utility polls. We generated 476 million in sales in the second quarter.
compared to a strong shipment quarter last year sales were down 4%, organically,
While the pace of purchases of some utilities remained. Slow incremental volumes from new customers and improved quoting activity in the southern yellow. Pine region, provided a partial offset.
Volumes in the quarter were down 2% with a corresponding decline, in pricing largely attributable to an unfavorable sales mix.
Of setting and large part. The lower utility pole sales was the contribution of lockwell whose results are reported in the utility polls product category.
Sales were better than anticipated as they had backlog orders that existed prior to the acquisition that were completed during the quarter.
Sales of Railway ties were down 11% organically this quarter to 240 million as volumes continued to be impacted by a Class. 1 customer, treating more of their Railway ties at their company-owned facility.
While we expected to offset some of the sales shortfall with commercial sales delays in the timing of major projects and funding Grant reviews. Impacted these recoveries
In the second quarter, all of the sales decline for Railway ties was attributable to lower volumes.
Residential sales were 246 million in the second quarter of 2025, compared to 243 million in Q2 last year.
Sales benefited from the higher market price of lumber, but volumes continued to be soft particularly in the earlier. Part of the quarter. At the weather improved. We saw an upward Trend in the man towards the end of the quarter.
Turning now to profitability.
Declined by 11 million to 189 million in Q2 of 2025.
The decrease was largely attributable to lower sales volume and the less favorable sales mix in our utility polls business. Compared to the same period last year.
Despite lower volumes, the company delivered, an EPA margin of 18.3% for the quarter and 18.8% year to date, excluding the insurance settlement, gain recorded in the first quarter.
A strong epidemic performance, underscores the resilience of our business and ability to deliver results in a dynamic environment.
During the quarter cash generated from operating activities, was 224 million compared to 177 million in Q2 last year.
This Improvement was largely attributable to a more significant decrease in inventory levels compared to the same period in 2024.
In addition to the typical seasonal, decrease in inventory expected in Q2, we reduced inventories as part of our efforts to optimize the higher levels at the start of the year.
We continue to expect to end the year with a lower inventory, level compared to the beginning of the year.
We remain committed to a balanced approach to Capital allocation.
Over the last 12 months, we generated cash from operations of approximately $500 million, allowing us to invest over $100 million in our business, acquire Lockwell, and return $155 million to shareholders. The remaining capital was used to bolster our liquidity.
As at the end of June, we returned 470 million of capital to shareholders out of the 500 million. That was committed for the 2023 to 2025 period and yesterday our board of directors approved, a quarterly dividend of 31 cents per share.
We ended the quarter with almost 700 million dollars in available liquidity and a net debt to EBA ratio of 2.4 times down from the 2.6 times at the end of the previous quarter.
With a continued focus on profitability and working Capital Management. The leverage ratio was reduced within the desired target range.
We remain committed to maintaining our strong balance sheet, which allows us to execute on strategic growth initiatives and to continue to pursue value-accretive acquisitions core to our growth strategy.
In summary with the breadth of our Network, the strength of our business, and our teams combined with our healthy financial position and strong cash. Generating ability fellow Jones is well positioned for continued growth and success in 2025 and Beyond.
I will not turn the call back to Eric for his closing remarks.
Thank you, sauna.
While our lower sales guidance, reflects some near-term. Softness largely associated with ongoing macroeconomic conditions, the mid to long-term market dynamics remain intact,
As such, we maintain our confidence in the growth Prospect of each of our infrastructure businesses.
We are encouraged by the progressive Improvement in utility pool volumes and where Physicians to further, capitalize on the growing North American infrastructure demand.
Of the near-term. Headwinds and Leverage The evolving Railway Thai landscape.
our customers view Stella Jones as a partner that is capable of delivering impactful business enhancing Solutions, anywhere fully committed to fulfilling that role
enhancing our growth through Acquisitions remains a Cornerstone of our value creation strategy as we focus on, expanding our offering and strengthening our Market position.
We are dedicated to pursuing Acquisitions that are accredited and complementary to our current infrastructure portfolio. Further strengthening our overall business resilience
We expect to continue to maintain ibido. Margins of our 17% Target.
Reflecting the strength of our business.
Compared to our original guidance from 2023, where we projected a 9% ibid doer for the 2023 to 2025, period, the epiderm. Now, expected to be closer to 11% despite softer sales over the past year.
We look forward to providing further Insight on our growth strategy at our next investor day, which is planned to be hosted in November.
Thank you for your continued support and Trust in Stella Jones's vision of connecting communities through stronger infrastructure.
This concludes today's prepared prepared remarks, I will now open the line to questions.
If you're using a speaker phone please lift the handset before pressing any keys one moment. Please for your first question.
Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin the question and answer session as a reminder. Should you have a question please press star. Followed by the 1 on your telephone keypad, you will hear a prompt that your hand has been raised. And should you wish to cancel your request? Please press star for beta 2.
Okay.
Thank you and your first question comes from the line of Samir Patel from CIBC capital markets. Please go ahead.
Hi, good morning, Eric.
Eric if we start with the pole side of the business the 4% organic decline in Q2, how much of that was pricing versus weaker volumes.
Roughly half and half to 2% on pricing and 2% on volume.
Okay, Great and then in terms of the outlook for the remainder of the year plenty take low single digit organic growth in poles.
Whats. The similarly, you know, what's the pricing and volume assumptions underlying that and could you speak to what youre seeing in the spot market for for pulp prices.
Right so.
I would say.
Pretty much all volume for the back half of the year progressively growing now.
Moving forward as I said.
We're encouraged to see.
The D.
Steady trend of increase in volumes year over year. So to answer your question all of all volume I think we have much of the pricing headwinds.
Now behind Us.
Okay, and then in the spot market and in the past you've pointed to some pockets of weakness is that still the case or have things stabilized.
Compared to last year, it's flat to slightly down compared to last year.
For us the larger percentage over our sales are to the long term contracts.
Which is around 75% so that that has been mitigating that effect, but yes, we're seeing the spot market being softer.
Okay, Great and just the last question I had Eric with respect to lock well, Doug could you speak to how the integration has been going over the past two months and are you feeling about your plans to sell through the.
The capacity expansion that you have a planned over there.
Yes, certainly we obviously, it's been three myself I would say the integration has gone extremely well.
What I say, so pretty much behind us.
We've we've committed to the capital investment to expand the capacities that I was.
Announced that $50 million you can expect by the end of this year. We will have spent our first tranche of let's say $9 million to $10 million of that Capex and delivery of equipment is expected between southern.
Some equipment is actually going to be delivered in September and then the balance will be early next year. So that is progressing well.
<unk> two <unk>.
For the listener that.
We secured a five year commitment from the large north American utility to produce.
Structures, which will.
We will take up or utilize a large part of that or a good part of that capacity. So that's very encouraging as we're making this investment I'm confident over the next five years, we've we've got a solid.
A solid a solid book of order and we're actually quoting a lot of long term projects right now that span between the two to five year horizon and there's actually some some discussions about quoting the period from 2030 to 2035, so it's an interesting.
Environment to transmission.
Our World is project products get gets get planned over.
Much longer horizon to seven to 10 year timeframe, so but things are looking very well. Thank you for the question.
Okay, Great I appreciate the color of that so that's all I had I'll turn it over thanks.
Thanks Amir.
Thank you and your next question comes from the line of James Mcgarrigle from RBC capital markets. Please go ahead.
Good morning, and thanks for having me on.
Is this something that the change in guidance can you just elaborate a little bit on some of the primary challenges that youre seeing at the customer level are you know I guess kind of what changed.
Those conversations between Q1, and Q2 and I guess, just what underpins your confidence in achieving that.
You know that Google did better utility pole the guidance in the yards at the second half of the year.
Thank you James.
You know what what encourages me and what we're seeing is that there is a caution.
Trend in improving volumes and you know in recent discussions with shareholders.
Mentioned, what's important for me is to see that trend.
For me it will continue into 2026, so obviously a bit a bit more softness I pointed out.
We're seeing some softness in the Canadian market. So Canadian until these have definitely taken.
More prudent approach to two two.
The projects.
But that being said you know.
We are still confident about seeing that volume growth in the back half of the year. It's just a slower base as I mentioned in my notes.
I appreciate the color. Thank you.
You alluded to determinate in your prepared remarks.
Can you just remind us how you're viewing your balance sheet capacity right now and any color that you can provide on your recent acquisition of a lock well and you.
Any potential opportunities that might have opened up in the U S for Ya and after that I will turn the Y number. Thank you.
Thank you James I saw that I pointed out we have a lot of availability on our credit facilities right now are around $700 million.
Our leverage sitting at 2.4 for this time of the year bodes very well as you know typically we actually leverage down into the second half of the year. So I think from a financials perspective, we have a lot of dry powder to go out and execute on acquisitions.
And to that extent, we are looking at a few projects are there.
Are related to the wood treating industry and also related to that.
Had quantified it in the best adjacent businesses now too can appointed the law well question we definitely.
Executed on that transaction with the intention to use it as a oh.
And entrants to this market, which we've qualified to be light.
By $5 billion Canadian dollars in annual sales, which would be later in tubular polls.
But that being said our intention is definitely to keep pursuing M&A in that space in North America.
Thank you.
Thank you and your next question comes from the line of Maxim <unk> from National Bank Financial. Please go ahead.
Hi, Eric.
Good morning, how are you.
Good good thank you yourself.
Thank you. The first question actually I just wanted to follow up on <unk> and your thought process.
As you learn more about sort of the latest market and the capacity to expand organically in the west.
But what are your thoughts there and can you provide maybe a little bit of an update there in terms of what's happening in that market specifically thanks.
Yes, certainly so take it happy to provide more detail. So the last two months.
Our sales team and the log well team has been meeting with customers.
<unk> seen the new joined forces of the two businesses and definitely introducing lock well to new potential customers.
It has been widely welcomed by all our customers.
Do you mean, the same question you have our customers have for US now is so what are your intentions are you guys going to acquire something in the U S.
There's always going to expand and so there's a lot of interest for us to do so so we're definitely putting some time behind analyzing that possibility. So I think right now there is a very positive feedback from our customers, which is usually the hardest part of our project is to properly scope out the commercial aspect and in DB.
The ability to penetrate the market. So I think that is indicating very positive for us right now the balance of executing on that comes back down to.
Capex, which you know obviously, we have a lot of financial means Knowhow, which you now have with the lock well team.
And to say that this team at longhorn is definitely.
Very high on the idea of expanding.
The division and.
Becoming the largest loudest manufactured in North America. So, yes, I would say, we're definitely exploring those avenues.
Uh huh.
Do you have a sense of potential timing to caution on making a decision as I said 2025 2026 timeframe.
Or is it too premature to talk specifics.
Oh, it's a bit early to talk specifics are obviously you know we do have governance I need to have a discussion with the board that we need to structure just to structure a.
Our project.
Hi, I guess I wanted to say that we don't want a geography, I think theres, an opportunity and you know being first to market is key in my mind. So.
It's too early to talk about the timing, but it's definitely something that's on my priority list.
Okay great.
Just one quick question around ties.
Now this way skiing speculation around additional consolidation in.
In the rail space do you have a sense in terms of.
There could be some spillover effect in terms of in sourcing or do these companies don't have their own treatment capacity just any color there would be great.
That's a good question Matt.
So a question that has come up recently several times in recent months so.
To clarify there was only one class one that had a treating facility Ed.
The emerge.
The merger with another class one so theres only one class one that holds the treating facility now they're using it internally. So all the other customers do not have these are the this capability.
And I would say.
If I were.
Personally comment I don't think any of them are interested in owning those assets.
Have customers talking to us about doing treating services, where there would actually be a good one the ties what do you need to leverage our our network. Some of US are talking to us about expansion projects are they're definitely wanting Stella Jones to service them.
Better in certain geographical regions a week, we do have some.
Some of these discussions with our customers, which indicate to me that this is not a trend in the industry of of seeing.
The railroads started investing in these assets, which are not their core business.
Yeah makes sense, Okay. That's great. Thank you so much.
Thank you Maxime.
Thank you once again that is time and one Jesse question and your next question comes from the line of menu off putting their leisure than capital markets. Please go ahead.
Yeah.
On the rail side could you maybe provide an update on the rail side customer projects that could help compensate for the volume shortfall, we see with this last one.
Yeah, certainly so you know as I said in the prepared remarks, where.
They're looking to compensate some of the headwinds would be up.
Some commercial some commercial business.
There were there was a bit of a delay in the first half of the year with a with a federal funding in the U S. As certain programs got reviewed and they were there were some delays in those funds.
Made available to our customer base, but now we've been quoting and got awarded contracts here in the second half of the year, which will switch supports my view that we will be able to compensate some of the loss of volumes into into the.
That sorry, the law as well as they've had in the first part of the year.
Once we get into next year, obviously the.
The this headwind of this class one will be behind us so it looks like a once and done.
And then I do believe as I said, we're going to continue growing our business at that low single digit.
Pace, but I also see some opportunities with certain of our customers.
Looking towards us for some capital investments. So we can enhance our business with them so more to come in.
I'll just take.
Take a bit of time, but it's in 'twenty six 'twenty seven but.
We'll put this behind us and I think the.
The future looks good for the railroad tie division.
Okay, and could you talk a little bit about the upcoming contract renewals to come would be a class one how many might we see in our 2025 and should we expect this to be more a positive or negative catalyst.
So oh well.
Well without naming them one is behind us and another one to go this year, which is renewed at the end of October.
Obviously as we're renegotiating these contracts, we're looking to adjust pricing.
Favorably for us in the sense that we need to catch up on some cost increases that we've seen over the last few years.
These contracts are for the long term and we do in certain cases feel the pain of cost increases through Covid, which has not receded that have maintained so you know as we execute on these contracts and look for adjusted pricing or I would say favorable triggers or pin to Incent us.
Uh huh.
Good pricing and by that I mean, if someone wants to give me more volume I can definitely be more flexible on pricing.
You know I think it looks favorable for us.
For the balance of the year, obviously, but I think we got renewals now in 'twenty six 'twenty seven also so it'll gradually sort of makes us we make its way in our results over the next 24 months, let's say.
Okay and moving on utility Poles are when we look at the U S electric companies. The Vasquez 29 billion and the rate increase for this year, which more than doubled their request for the first half was 2024 I'm Eric.
Erika and electric power also completed some divestiture or equity issuance. So it looks like that the fundamental is quite strong although we see still elevated interest rate. So is it still going to put some pressure on spending or.
Would you say that utilities now realize the importance to spend despite the elevated interest rate environment any thoughts about the fundamental for a utility pole.
Okay.
Well. Thank you by the way I think it describes the fundamentals very well because what you. Just stated is what we observe as well. So you know rate base increases you know have been allocated to several customers and we see some customers adjusting their capital structure to be able to go to move forward with their investments and you know I associated that shows you that.
Those facts to you know what we expressed in seeing.
Our volumes picking up here in the second half of the year and I'd like to think they will keep doing so into 'twenty six.
There, there's no doubt about the investment being required and integrate as a whole and I think no matter what the interest rate environment does at this point I think our customers have adjusted to <unk> to this reality I mean, if the interest do drop in the U S. In the next several months.
It would only be favorable I would say, but at this point I think all of our customers.
Have found ways to move forward.
Okay, and just looking for residential lumber has been slapped we've seen obviously the housing starts down the home renovation also down on prices are down although weather any thoughts whether he was more driven by rain or any thoughts about what we should expect.
From residential lumber and unless they can ask for it.
Yeah well.
I reiterated our views that the range of $6 to 650 million it and I think we will be largely fine to hit the range the middle of the range, let's say for this year.
You're right that we had some headwinds early spring with a lot of raining weekends.
I guess unfavorable.
Unfavorable unfavorable weather, but did the month of June has actually was actually very good at.
We're seeing.
And then kind of on the volume side right. Now are we definitely again has a great partner for us.
On the retail side is very aggressive on the pricing and a dedicated to a to a to take to.
<unk> market share in Canada, so that that isn't a real positive positive thing for us. So you know.
Youre right at market I mean, if housing starts pick up again that would also be very favorable and contribute positively to the business, but even that at this point I still thinking of where we're.
Good point.
Okay. Thank you very much photo time.
Thanks Bernard.
Thank you and once again should you have a question. Please press star followed by one on your telephone keypad.
Okay.
My name is once again that is star one to ask the question.
And your next question comes from the line of Jonathan Goldman from Scotiabank. Please go ahead.
Hi, Good morning, Thanks for taking my question, Eric just a question on the outlook for Poles for the rest of the year do you assume any rate cuts there what sort of macro economic variables are you considering in that guidance.
Oh, no we're not.
We're not.
We're not baking.
Baking in any any any rate cuts that would be very difficult for us to speculate on so we use the information we have to date at current effects, where some projections of FX and current interest rates.
Anything else that happens if there are rate cuts. It's positive first it takes a while to scope into our casino.
To trickle back down to us I think it's a leading indicator of positive a positive for us but.
We also follow what our customers say so at this point.
If the rate cut might impact next year's plan at this point and probably not as much this year, but as I said, it's a good leading indicator for us.
Alright, so if the macroeconomic condition stay the same what gives you confidence that volumes will accelerate through the back half of the year and the order book, what sort of visibility you have on that and customers delay orders and pushed them out potentially further.
Yeah. That's a good question and you know at this point.
I guess.
We went through this exercise of Atlassian is every quarter. So we definitely scrubbed scrub the order book and had good discussions with our customers.
With regards to what is expected. This year you will notice the guidance slightly adjusted right.
And the expected growth, but it's still a positive growth for the year to be honest. There is also an easier comp year over year, because we had a decline last year in Q3 and Q4 so.
I'm quite comfortable with what's going on right now as far as the order book is conversations that our team is having with customers.
<unk> had a couple of discussions with some key customers as well.
I think what we've put out is definitely achievable.
Okay that makes sense and then maybe moving to the margin guidance still the same sort of guide above 17% I mean that gives a lot of imagination youre above 18 for the second quarter in a row now why wouldn't we assume that you can do 18% spot volumes have been weaker for a bit now and you are still able to maintain.
At 18% Mark.
So you know.
As a reference when you look at last year, but it's true in many years the second half of the year typically has less volumes at a residential longer business.
So it slows down the maintenance season also sort of proposal ties sort of slows down as well. So typically the H two is a bit of a lower volume in the EBITDA margin is slightly lower than in the first half of the year. So she's called that in sort of a pause it put us a downwards from the point we are today on a year to date.
Don't feel yes, 17 as before.
Youre right. It leaves a lot to the imagination.
As I like to say the team always swing for defenses, where I was looking for a home runs out of <unk>.
Don't let any one off the hook easily have looking forward for good performance, but theres always that impact here of age to that would bring us slightly lowered the year to date number we have now.
Okay that makes sense and if we look at the historical cadence from the first half the second half in terms of margins is the last couple of years three years may be a good reference point or is it better to look farther back too.
You kind of remove some of the pricing dynamics, you've seen in the past couple of years.
Yeah, I'll, let Phil I don't know it because we actually spent some time talking about in the last few days. So I would say Jonathan that in most years, it's pretty representative starting last year I would say probably one of the anomalies that we saw back in 2020.
It was a year, that's probably remember when there's a lot of money a lot of demand and a little bit of craziness in the market, but other than that other than that you know I think if you go back historically I think you'll always see publicly.
That gap between the first half and second half.
Okay makes sense. Thanks for taking my question.
Thanks, Jonathan.
Thank you no further questions at the queue.
Thank you Dana and thank you everyone for joining us today.
Look forward to updating you when we released our third quarter results until then enjoy the rest of the summer and stay safe.
This concludes today's call. Thank you for participating you may all disconnect.
[music].
Okay.