Bank of America Q4 2025 Bank of America Corp Earnings Call | AllMind AI Earnings | AllMind AI
Q4 2025 Bank of America Corp Earnings Call
Speaker #2: Please stand by. Your meeting is about to begin. Hello and welcome, everyone, joining today's Bank of America earnings announcement. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode.
Operator: Please stand by. Your meeting is about to begin. Hello and welcome, everyone joining today's Bank of America earnings announcement. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. Please note this call is being recorded. We're standing by if you should need any assistance. It is now my pleasure to turn the meeting over to Lee McEntire. Please go ahead.
Operator: Please stand by. Your meeting is about to begin. Hello and welcome, everyone joining today's Bank of America earnings announcement. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. Please note this call is being recorded. We're standing by if you should need any assistance. It is now my pleasure to turn the meeting over to Lee McEntire. Please go ahead.
Speaker #2: Please note, this call is being recorded. We're standing by if you should need any assistance. It is now my pleasure to turn the meeting over to Lee McIntyre.
Speaker #2: Please go ahead.
Speaker #3: Thank you, Leo. Good morning. Thank you for joining us to review our fourth quarter results. During the quarter, we elected to change the accounting method related to our tax-related equity investments in order to better align our financial statement presentation with the economic and financial impact of those investments.
Lee E. McEntire: Thank you, Leo. Good morning. Thank you for joining us to review our fourth quarter results. During the quarter, we elected to change the accounting method related to our tax-related equity investments in order to better align our financial statement presentation with the economic and financial impact of those investments. As a result, we filed an 8-K on 6 January and a related mini supplemental package recasting the numbers for the quarters of 2024 and 2025, and the full year of 2023 and 2024. The primary impact of the accounting change was a reclassification between the income statement line items in our income statement, which had an insignificant impact on net income. Our discussion today is based on those recast numbers. As usual, our earnings release documents are available on the investor relations section of the bankofamerica.com website.
Lee E. McEntire: Thank you, Leo. Good morning. Thank you for joining us to review our fourth quarter results. During the quarter, we elected to change the accounting method related to our tax-related equity investments in order to better align our financial statement presentation with the economic and financial impact of those investments. As a result, we filed an 8-K on 6 January and a related mini supplemental package recasting the numbers for the quarters of 2024 and 2025, and the full year of 2023 and 2024. The primary impact of the accounting change was a reclassification between the income statement line items in our income statement, which had an insignificant impact on net income. Our discussion today is based on those recast numbers. As usual, our earnings release documents are available on the investor relations section of the bankofamerica.com website.
Speaker #3: As a result, we filed an 8-K on January 6th and a related mini supplemental package recasting the numbers for the quarters of 2024 and 2025, and the full year of '23 and '24.
Speaker #3: The primary impact of the accounting change was a reclassification between the income statement line items in our income statement, which had an insignificant impact on net income.
Speaker #3: Our discussion today is based on those recast numbers. As usual, our earnings release documents are available on the Investor Relations section of the bankofamerica.com website.
Speaker #3: Those documents include the earnings presentation that we will make reference to during the call. Brian Moynihan will make some brief comments before turning the call over to Alastair Borthwick, our CFO, to discuss more of the details in the quarter.
Those documents include the earnings presentation that we will make reference to during the call. Brian Moynihan will make some brief comments before turning the call over to Alastair Borthwick, our CFO, to discuss more of the details in the quarter. Let me remind you that we may make forward-looking statements and refer to non-GAAP financial measures during the call. Forward-looking statements are based on management's current expectations and assumptions that are subject to risk and uncertainties. Factors that may cause our actual results to materially differ from expectations are detailed in our earnings materials and SEC filings available on our website. Information about non-GAAP financial measures, including reconciliations to US GAAP, can also be found in our earnings materials and are available on our website. With that, Brian, I'll pass over to you.
Those documents include the earnings presentation that we will make reference to during the call. Brian Moynihan will make some brief comments before turning the call over to Alastair Borthwick, our CFO, to discuss more of the details in the quarter. Let me remind you that we may make forward-looking statements and refer to non-GAAP financial measures during the call. Forward-looking statements are based on management's current expectations and assumptions that are subject to risk and uncertainties. Factors that may cause our actual results to materially differ from expectations are detailed in our earnings materials and SEC filings available on our website. Information about non-GAAP financial measures, including reconciliations to US GAAP, can also be found in our earnings materials and are available on our website. With that, Brian, I'll pass over to you.
Speaker #3: Let me remind you that we may make forward-looking statements and refer to non-GAAP financial measures during the call. Forward-looking statements are based on management's current expectations and assumptions that are subject to risks and uncertainties.
Speaker #3: Factors that may cause our actual results to materially differ from expectations are detailed in our earnings materials and SEC filings available on our website.
Speaker #3: Information about non-GAAP financial measures, including reconciliations to U.S. GAAP, can also be found in our earnings materials and are available on our website. With that, Brian, I'll pass over to you.
Speaker #4: Thank you, Lee, and good morning, and thank you for joining us. This morning, Bank of America reported net income of $7.6 billion for the fourth quarter.
Brian Moynihan: Thank you, Lee. Good morning, and thank you for joining us. This morning, Bank of America reported net income of $7.6 billion for the fourth quarter. That is up 12% from the fourth quarter of 2024. Our EPS was $0.98 per share. That's an increase of 18% from the fourth quarter of 2024. We delivered 7% year-over-year revenue growth. This was led by a 10% improvement in net interest income, up to $15.9 billion on an FTE basis. For net interest income, we have delivered each quarter what we laid out across the year and finished a bit stronger than we expected. We grew average loans 8%. We grew average deposits 3%. We delivered 330 basis points of operating leverage in quarter four through continuing disciplined expense management.
Brian Moynihan: Thank you, Lee. Good morning, and thank you for joining us. This morning, Bank of America reported net income of $7.6 billion for the fourth quarter. That is up 12% from the fourth quarter of 2024. Our EPS was $0.98 per share. That's an increase of 18% from the fourth quarter of 2024. We delivered 7% year-over-year revenue growth. This was led by a 10% improvement in net interest income, up to $15.9 billion on an FTE basis. For net interest income, we have delivered each quarter what we laid out across the year and finished a bit stronger than we expected. We grew average loans 8%. We grew average deposits 3%. We delivered 330 basis points of operating leverage in quarter four through continuing disciplined expense management.
Speaker #4: That is up 12% from the fourth quarter of 2024. Our EPS was $0.98 per share. That's an increase of 18% from the fourth quarter of '24.
Speaker #4: We delivered 7% year-over-year revenue growth. This was led by a 10% improvement in net interest income, up to $15.9 billion on an FTE basis.
Speaker #4: For net interest income, we have delivered each quarter what we laid out across the year and finished a bit stronger than we expected. We grew average loans 8%.
Speaker #4: We grew average deposits 3%. We delivered 330 basis points of operating leverage in Q4 through continued disciplined expense management. Alastair will take you through the details of the quarter, but first I want to highlight a few things about 2025.
Brian Moynihan: Alastair will take you through the details of the quarter, but first, I want to highlight a few things about 2025 to close the year out. I'm working off of slide two in the earnings presentation. Our fourth quarter topped off a strong performance by my teammates at Bank of America for 2025. We delivered on our commitments to shareholders across the year with solid growth across revenue, earnings, and returns. We drove operating leverage and continued robust investments in people, brand, technology, and both our physical and digital networks. Those results reflect the power of our diversified business model and our commitment to drive responsible growth. Some highlights of 2025 you can see here. Revenue was a little over $113 billion, was up 7% year-over-year. We generated 250 basis points of operating leverage for the year. Asset quality was strong. The net charge-offs improved from 2024.
Alastair will take you through the details of the quarter, but first, I want to highlight a few things about 2025 to close the year out. I'm working off of slide two in the earnings presentation. Our fourth quarter topped off a strong performance by my teammates at Bank of America for 2025. We delivered on our commitments to shareholders across the year with solid growth across revenue, earnings, and returns. We drove operating leverage and continued robust investments in people, brand, technology, and both our physical and digital networks. Those results reflect the power of our diversified business model and our commitment to drive responsible growth. Some highlights of 2025 you can see here. Revenue was a little over $113 billion, was up 7% year-over-year. We generated 250 basis points of operating leverage for the year. Asset quality was strong. The net charge-offs improved from 2024.
Speaker #4: To close the year out, I'm working off slide two in the earnings presentation. Our fourth quarter topped off a strong performance by my teammates at Bank of America for 2025.
Speaker #4: We delivered on our commitments to shareholders across the year, with solid growth across revenue, earnings, and returns. We drove operating leverage and continued robust investments in people, brand, technology, and both our physical and digital networks.
Speaker #4: Those results reflect the power of our diversified business model and our commitment to drive responsible growth. Some highlights of 2025 you can see here: revenue was a little over $113 billion, up 7% year-over-year.
Speaker #4: We generated 250 basis points of operating leverage for the year. Asset quality was strong, and net charge-offs improved from 2024. We grew net income year over year by 13%.
Brian Moynihan: We grew net income year-over-year by 13%. In addition, we grew EPS year-over-year to $3.81 or by 19%. We also increased our profitability and returns during the year. Return on Tangible Common Equity improved to 128 basis points. Our Return on Assets improved to 89 basis points. Our results and prudent balance sheet management allowed us to distribute 41% more in capital back to shareholders, more than $30 billion. We grew loans 8%, and we grew deposits 3%. Loans outpaced the industry, and average deposits now have grown for the 10th consecutive quarter. Our focus on all the markets we serve, whether they're domestic or international, has allowed us to grow our client balances at a faster pace than the industry. Dean described how we do this in the US on our investor day, and we will cover it later in the program.
We grew net income year-over-year by 13%. In addition, we grew EPS year-over-year to $3.81 or by 19%. We also increased our profitability and returns during the year. Return on Tangible Common Equity improved to 128 basis points. Our Return on Assets improved to 89 basis points. Our results and prudent balance sheet management allowed us to distribute 41% more in capital back to shareholders, more than $30 billion. We grew loans 8%, and we grew deposits 3%. Loans outpaced the industry, and average deposits now have grown for the 10th consecutive quarter. Our focus on all the markets we serve, whether they're domestic or international, has allowed us to grow our client balances at a faster pace than the industry. Dean described how we do this in the US on our investor day, and we will cover it later in the program.
Speaker #4: In addition, we grew EPS year over year to $3.81, up 19%. We also increased our profitability and returns during the year. Return on tangible common equity improved 128 basis points.
Speaker #4: Our return on assets improved to 89 basis points. Our results in prudent balance sheet management allowed us to distribute 41% more in capital back to shareholders, more than $30 billion.
Speaker #4: We grew loans 8%, and we grew deposits 3%. Loans outpaced the industry, and average deposits have now grown for the 10th consecutive quarter. Our focus on all the markets we serve, whether they're domestic or international, has allowed us to grow our client balances at a faster pace than the industry.
Speaker #4: Dean described how we do this in the U.S. on our Investor Day, and we will cover it later in the program. As you look to slide 3, we've also highlighted some organic growth highlights for the year and the quarter.
Brian Moynihan: As you look to slide three, we've also highlighted some organic growth highlights for the year and the quarter. We grew net new consumer checking accounts by $680,000 during the year, and that's while maintaining a strong average balance of $9,000 plus. This extended our consecutive quarterly net growth to 28, or 7 years straight. We crossed over $6.5 trillion in client balances of investments, deposits, and loans across wealth and consumer banking. Our consumer investment totals reached $600 billion. Similarly, our workplace benefits totals, i.e., 401(k) balances, and related balances, crossed over $600 billion also. It's worth noting that $28 billion of our year-over-year loan growth came through our wealth management clients. Global Wealth Investment Management showed improved nominal profit growth, stronger pre-tax margin improvement, and continued to draw net new assets with a combined consumer of $100 billion during the year.
As you look to slide three, we've also highlighted some organic growth highlights for the year and the quarter. We grew net new consumer checking accounts by $680,000 during the year, and that's while maintaining a strong average balance of $9,000 plus. This extended our consecutive quarterly net growth to 28, or 7 years straight. We crossed over $6.5 trillion in client balances of investments, deposits, and loans across wealth and consumer banking. Our consumer investment totals reached $600 billion. Similarly, our workplace benefits totals, i.e., 401(k) balances, and related balances, crossed over $600 billion also. It's worth noting that $28 billion of our year-over-year loan growth came through our wealth management clients. Global Wealth Investment Management showed improved nominal profit growth, stronger pre-tax margin improvement, and continued to draw net new assets with a combined consumer of $100 billion during the year.
Speaker #4: We grew net new consumer checking accounts by 608,000 during the year, and that's while maintaining a strong average balance of $9,000-plus. This extended our consecutive quarterly net growth to 28 quarters for seven years straight.
Speaker #4: We crossed over $6.5 trillion in client balances of investments, deposits, and loans across Wealth and Consumer Banking. Our consumer investment totals reached $600 billion.
Speaker #4: Similarly, our workplace benefits totals by 401(k) balances and related balances crossed over $600 billion also. It's worth noting that $28 billion of our year-over-year loan growth came through our wealth management clients.
Speaker #4: Global Wealth Investment Management showed improved nominal profit growth, stronger pre-tax margin improvement, and continued to draw net new assets with a combined consumer of $100 billion during the year.
Speaker #4: In Global Banking, average deposits increased $71 billion, up 13%. We saw treasury service fees increase 13% over ’24. And ending loans grew across each line of business year-over-year.
Brian Moynihan: In global banking, average deposits increased $71 billion, up 13%. We saw treasury service fees increase 13% over 2024. Ending loans grew across each line of business year-over-year. Good core customer organic growth driving that. Investment banking saw good activity. For the full year, our investment banking fees were the highest they've been since going back to 2020 and the outside pandemic period recovery. They were 7% higher than the prior year. Fees generated in the second half of 2025 were 25% greater than the first half. What did this show? It showed good momentum by our team. It also showed that our corporate commercial clients settled in during the year after tax policy behaved clear, tariffs became more understood, and they look forward and receive the benefits of deregulation.
In global banking, average deposits increased $71 billion, up 13%. We saw treasury service fees increase 13% over 2024. Ending loans grew across each line of business year-over-year. Good core customer organic growth driving that. Investment banking saw good activity. For the full year, our investment banking fees were the highest they've been since going back to 2020 and the outside pandemic period recovery. They were 7% higher than the prior year. Fees generated in the second half of 2025 were 25% greater than the first half. What did this show? It showed good momentum by our team. It also showed that our corporate commercial clients settled in during the year after tax policy behaved clear, tariffs became more understood, and they look forward and receive the benefits of deregulation.
Speaker #4: Good core customer organic growth driving that. Investment banking saw good activity. For the full year, our investment banking fees were the highest they've been since going back to 2020 in the outside pandemic period recovery.
Speaker #4: They were 7% higher than the prior year. Fees generated in the second half of 2025 were 25% greater than the first half. What does this show?
Speaker #4: It showed good momentum by our team, and also showed that our corporate commercial clients settled in during the year after tax policy behavior and clear tariffs became more understood, and they look forward and receive the benefits of deregulation.
Speaker #4: Global Markets, under Jimmy's leadership, saw continued growth in sales and trading with its 15th consecutive quarter of improvement and drove a record year of nearly $21 billion in sales and trading revenue.
Brian Moynihan: Global Markets under Jimmy's leadership saw continued growth in sales and trading with its 15th consecutive quarter of improvement and drove a record year of nearly $21 billion in sales and trading revenue. In addition to these stats, I commend you to review slides 21, 23, and 25. Those highlight the continued progress of digital deployment and activation statistics for each of our businesses. You should note there the impact of Zelle in the continued usage growth and also note the impact of Erica, our AI agent, and its use both across our businesses and with our teammates. A couple of high-level comments of what we see in the economy. It was a pretty good, decent environment as we moved through year 2025. Consumer spending grew 5% at $4.5 trillion, grew 5% over the 2024 levels.
Global Markets under Jimmy's leadership saw continued growth in sales and trading with its 15th consecutive quarter of improvement and drove a record year of nearly $21 billion in sales and trading revenue. In addition to these stats, I commend you to review slides 21, 23, and 25. Those highlight the continued progress of digital deployment and activation statistics for each of our businesses. You should note there the impact of Zelle in the continued usage growth and also note the impact of Erica, our AI agent, and its use both across our businesses and with our teammates. A couple of high-level comments of what we see in the economy. It was a pretty good, decent environment as we moved through year 2025. Consumer spending grew 5% at $4.5 trillion, grew 5% over the 2024 levels.
Speaker #4: In addition to these stats, I commend you to review slides 21, 23, and 25. Those highlight the continued progress of digital deployment and activation statistics for each of our businesses.
Speaker #4: You should note the impact of Zelle and the continued usage growth, and also note the impact of Erica, our AI agent, and its use both across our businesses and with our teammates.
Speaker #4: A couple of high-level comments on what we've seen in the economy. It was a pretty good, decent environment as we moved through year 2025.
Speaker #4: Consumer spending grew 5%, at $4.5 trillion, and grew 5% over the 2024 levels. Account balances and consumer business for that broad base of the U.S. consumer were stable through the year.
Brian Moynihan: Account balances in consumer business for that broad base of the US consumer were stable through the year. Delinquencies and charge-offs improved in 2025 consumer credit. Unemployment in the market remained stable, and the equity market appreciation benefited those consumers or investors in our Merrill Edge products or in our 401(k) platforms. This strong consumer health bodes well for a continued improvement in growth in 2026. When you go to our corporate commercial customers, again, as the tax law settled in, the tariffs appeared to be manageable, and deregulation kicked in, they had a pretty good year and good profits, including good credit quality and good money movement activity as we moved through the year as they participate in the world economy. Our world-class research team has the global growth rate for GDP at 3.4% in 2026, and US at 2.6%. Risks remain out there. They always do.
Account balances in consumer business for that broad base of the US consumer were stable through the year. Delinquencies and charge-offs improved in 2025 consumer credit. Unemployment in the market remained stable, and the equity market appreciation benefited those consumers or investors in our Merrill Edge products or in our 401(k) platforms. This strong consumer health bodes well for a continued improvement in growth in 2026. When you go to our corporate commercial customers, again, as the tax law settled in, the tariffs appeared to be manageable, and deregulation kicked in, they had a pretty good year and good profits, including good credit quality and good money movement activity as we moved through the year as they participate in the world economy. Our world-class research team has the global growth rate for GDP at 3.4% in 2026, and US at 2.6%. Risks remain out there. They always do.
Speaker #4: Delinquencies and charge-offs improved in 2025 consumer credit. Unemployment in the market remained stable, and the equity market appreciation benefited those consumers or investors, and our Merrill Edge products or in our 401(k) platforms.
Speaker #4: This strong consumer health bodes well for a continued improvement in growth in 2026. When you go to our corporate commercial customers, again, as the tax loss settled in, the tariffs appeared to be manageable.
Speaker #4: They and deregulation kicked in. They had a pretty good year and good profits, including good credit quality and good money movement activity as we moved through the year as they participate in the world economy.
Speaker #4: Our world-class research team has the global growth rate for GDP at 3.4% in 2026, and in the US at 2.6%. Risks remain out there—they always do.
Speaker #4: But we're encouraged and constructive on the year ahead. So I'll turn it over to Alastair to cover.
Brian Moynihan: But we're encouraged and constructive on the year ahead. So I'll turn it over to Alastair to cover the quarter.
But we're encouraged and constructive on the year ahead. So I'll turn it over to Alastair to cover the quarter.
Speaker #4: the quarter. Thank you,
Alastair Borthwick: Thank you, Brian. I'll start using slide four. As Brian noted, the fourth quarter was a strong quarter for us with 7% year-over-year revenue growth and good operating leverage producing $7.6 billion in net income or $0.98 in earnings per share. Our EPS grew 18% compared to the fourth quarter of 2024. Net interest income of $15.9 billion on a fully taxable equivalent basis was strong and a little better than expected, and we saw good momentum from market-based fees that complemented the NII growth. Of the $28.4 billion in total revenue, $10.4 billion came from sales and trading, investment banking, and asset management fees. Those are three of the more highly compensable market-facing areas. It's these areas that grew revenue 10% year-over-year in the aggregate.
Alastair Borthwick: Thank you, Brian. I'll start using slide four. As Brian noted, the fourth quarter was a strong quarter for us with 7% year-over-year revenue growth and good operating leverage producing $7.6 billion in net income or $0.98 in earnings per share. Our EPS grew 18% compared to the fourth quarter of 2024. Net interest income of $15.9 billion on a fully taxable equivalent basis was strong and a little better than expected, and we saw good momentum from market-based fees that complemented the NII growth. Of the $28.4 billion in total revenue, $10.4 billion came from sales and trading, investment banking, and asset management fees. Those are three of the more highly compensable market-facing areas. It's these areas that grew revenue 10% year-over-year in the aggregate.
Speaker #2: Brian, I'll start using slide four. And as Brian noted, the fourth quarter was a strong quarter for us, with 7% year-over-year revenue growth and good operating leverage, producing $7.6 billion in net income, or $0.98 in earnings per share.
Speaker #2: Our EPS grew 18% compared to the fourth quarter of '24. Net interest income of $15.9 billion on a fully taxable-equivalent basis was strong and a little better than expected, and we saw good momentum from market-based fees that complemented the NII growth.
Speaker #2: Of the $28.4 billion in total revenue, $10.4 billion came from sales and trading, investment banking, and asset management fees, and those are three of the more highly compensable market-facing areas.
Speaker #2: It's these areas that grew revenue 10% year over year in the aggregate. On expense, the teams have shown good discipline across the businesses, as we held headcount flat across the year despite the volume growth of clients and activity.
Alastair Borthwick: On expense, the teams have shown good discipline across the businesses as we held headcount flat across the year despite the volume growth of clients and activity. Most of the year-over-year expense growth was a result of revenue-related growth in markets and wealth-based activities I just described, and our continued investments in the franchise. We saw productivity improvements through AI and digitalization more generally, and those enabled us to add client-facing associates as we eliminated work and roles in our operational support areas. This year, we brought another 2,000 college graduates into the company, and we remain an employer of choice with progressive benefit programs for our employees. Even with those additions, we managed to hold our headcount flat for the year through good management. Provision and net charge-offs declined year-over-year.
On expense, the teams have shown good discipline across the businesses as we held headcount flat across the year despite the volume growth of clients and activity. Most of the year-over-year expense growth was a result of revenue-related growth in markets and wealth-based activities I just described, and our continued investments in the franchise. We saw productivity improvements through AI and digitalization more generally, and those enabled us to add client-facing associates as we eliminated work and roles in our operational support areas. This year, we brought another 2,000 college graduates into the company, and we remain an employer of choice with progressive benefit programs for our employees. Even with those additions, we managed to hold our headcount flat for the year through good management. Provision and net charge-offs declined year-over-year.
Speaker #2: Most of the year-over-year expense growth was a result of revenue-related growth in markets and wealth-based activities I just described, and our continued investments in the franchise.
Speaker #2: We saw productivity improvements through AI and digitalization more generally, and those enabled us to add client-facing associates as we eliminated work and roles in our operational support areas.
Speaker #2: This year, we brought another 2,000 college graduates into the company, and we remain an employer of choice with progressive benefit programs for our employees.
Speaker #2: And even with those additions, we managed to hold our headcount flat for the year through good management. Provision and net charge-offs declined year over year.
Speaker #2: That's for a second straight quarter, driven by continued stabilization around credit cards and lower losses in commercial real estate. The net charge-off ratio fell to 44 basis points and is down 10 basis points year over year.
Alastair Borthwick: That's for a second straight quarter, driven by continued stabilization around credit card and lower losses in commercial real estate. The net charge-off ratio fell to 44 basis points and is down 10 basis points year-over-year. And lastly, we reduced our average diluted share count by about 300 million shares or 4% from the fourth quarter of 2024. Slide five highlights the various earnings points that Brian and I have covered to this point. So let's transfer to discussion of the balance sheet using slide six, where you see total assets ended the quarter at $3.4 trillion, little change from Q3, as securities and cash reductions were replaced with loan growth. Deposits grew $17 billion from Q3, and we used those deposits to continue to reduce wholesale funding as part of the plan we've discussed previously to intentionally lower balances and drive a more efficient balance sheet.
That's for a second straight quarter, driven by continued stabilization around credit card and lower losses in commercial real estate. The net charge-off ratio fell to 44 basis points and is down 10 basis points year-over-year. And lastly, we reduced our average diluted share count by about 300 million shares or 4% from the fourth quarter of 2024. Slide five highlights the various earnings points that Brian and I have covered to this point. So let's transfer to discussion of the balance sheet using slide six, where you see total assets ended the quarter at $3.4 trillion, little change from Q3, as securities and cash reductions were replaced with loan growth. Deposits grew $17 billion from Q3, and we used those deposits to continue to reduce wholesale funding as part of the plan we've discussed previously to intentionally lower balances and drive a more efficient balance sheet.
Speaker #2: And lastly, we reduced our average diluted share count by about 300 million shares, or 4%, from the fourth quarter of '24. Slide five highlights the various earnings points that Brian and I have covered to this point.
Speaker #2: So let's transfer to discussion of the balance sheet using slide six, where you see total assets ended the quarter at $3.4 trillion, little change from Q3, as securities and cash reductions were replaced with loan growth.
Speaker #2: Deposits grew $17 billion from Q3, and we used those deposits to continue to reduce wholesale funding as part of the plan we've discussed previously to intentionally lower balances and drive a more efficient balance sheet.
Speaker #2: Average global liquidity sources of $975 billion remain very strong. Shareholders' equity of $303 billion was up less than a billion dollars, as earnings and a modest increase in OCI were mostly offset by capital return to shareholders.
Alastair Borthwick: Average global liquidity sources of $975 billion remain very strong. Shareholders' equity of $303 billion was up less than $1 billion, as earnings and a modest increase in OCI was mostly offset by capital returned to shareholders. In the quarter, we returned $8.4 billion of capital back to shareholders, with $2.1 billion in common dividends paid and $6.3 billion of shares repurchased. The $1 billion increase in share repurchase from Q3 reflects increased earnings over the past six months and some reduction in excess capital. Tangible book value per share of $28.73 rose 9% from the fourth quarter of 2024. Turning to regulatory capital, our CET1 level decreased modestly to $201 billion, driven by a $2.1 billion capital reduction from making the tax equity investment accounting change in the period, and we were not required to restate prior period regulatory capital.
Average global liquidity sources of $975 billion remain very strong. Shareholders' equity of $303 billion was up less than $1 billion, as earnings and a modest increase in OCI was mostly offset by capital returned to shareholders. In the quarter, we returned $8.4 billion of capital back to shareholders, with $2.1 billion in common dividends paid and $6.3 billion of shares repurchased. The $1 billion increase in share repurchase from Q3 reflects increased earnings over the past six months and some reduction in excess capital. Tangible book value per share of $28.73 rose 9% from the fourth quarter of 2024. Turning to regulatory capital, our CET1 level decreased modestly to $201 billion, driven by a $2.1 billion capital reduction from making the tax equity investment accounting change in the period, and we were not required to restate prior period regulatory capital.
Speaker #2: In the quarter, we returned $8.4 billion of capital back to shareholders, with $2.1 billion in common dividends paid and $6.3 billion of shares repurchased.
Speaker #2: The $1 billion increase in share repurchase from Q3 reflects increased earnings over the past six months, and some reduction in excess capital. Tangible book value per share of $28.73 rose 9% from the fourth quarter of '24.
Speaker #2: Turning to regulatory capital, our CET1 level decreased modestly to $201 billion, driven by a $2.1 billion capital reduction from making the tax equity investment accounting change in the period, and we were not required to restate prior period regulatory capital.
Speaker #2: That capital reduction reflects the timing of equity and profitability in those investment deals, and comes back into our capital over the next several years as those deals wind down.
Alastair Borthwick: That capital reduction reflects the timing of equity and profitability in those investment deals and comes back into our capital over the next several years as those deals wind down. That accounted for roughly 12 basis points of CET1 reduction in the quarter, again, that we'll get back over time. Risk-weighted assets rose $22 billion from Q3, driven by loan growth. Our CET1 ratio then declined from 11.6% to 11.4%, and it remains well above our 10% regulatory required minimum. Our supplemental leverage ratio was 5.7% versus a minimum requirement of 5% as of 31 December and 3.75% under the new rule, which we are adopting starting in 2026. This leaves ample capacity for balance sheet growth, and our $467 billion of TLAC means our TLAC ratio remained comfortably above our requirements. On slide 11, we show trend of average deposits in the consecutive growth across those periods.
That capital reduction reflects the timing of equity and profitability in those investment deals and comes back into our capital over the next several years as those deals wind down. That accounted for roughly 12 basis points of CET1 reduction in the quarter, again, that we'll get back over time. Risk-weighted assets rose $22 billion from Q3, driven by loan growth. Our CET1 ratio then declined from 11.6% to 11.4%, and it remains well above our 10% regulatory required minimum. Our supplemental leverage ratio was 5.7% versus a minimum requirement of 5% as of 31 December and 3.75% under the new rule, which we are adopting starting in 2026. This leaves ample capacity for balance sheet growth, and our $467 billion of TLAC means our TLAC ratio remained comfortably above our requirements. On slide 11, we show trend of average deposits in the consecutive growth across those periods.
Speaker #2: That accounted for roughly 12 basis points of CET1 reduction in the quarter—again, that we'll get back over time. Risk-weighted assets rose $22 billion from Q3, driven by loan growth.
Speaker #2: Our CET1 ratio then declined from 11.6% to 11.4%, and it remains well above our 10% regulatory required minimum. Our supplemental leverage ratio was 5.7% versus a minimum requirement of 5% as of December 31st, and 3.75% under the new rule, which we are adopting starting in 2026.
Speaker #2: This leaves ample capacity for balance sheet growth, and our $467 billion of TLAC means our TLAC ratio remained comfortably above our requirements. On slide 11, we show the trend of average deposits and the consecutive growth across those periods.
Speaker #2: Average deposits were up nearly 3% from the fourth quarter of '24, driven largely by commercial client activity. Global Banking grew average deposits $74 billion, or 13%, compared to fourth quarter '24.
Alastair Borthwick: Average deposits were up nearly 3% from Q4 2024, driven largely by commercial client activity. Global banking grew average deposits $74 billion, or 13% compared to Q4 2024. Our global capabilities, innovative solutions, and our relationship managers continue to offer clients value and access to our award-winning digital platform, CashPro. Consumer banking reported its third consecutive quarter of year-over-year growth, and low and no interest checking was up $9 billion, or 2%. Importantly, ending deposits improved sequentially in every segment. The team also showed continued discipline on pricing while achieving that growth. Overall rate paid on total deposits of 163 basis points declined 15 basis points from Q3, reflecting lower rates and disciplined actions in our global banking and wealth management businesses. Global banking and wealth management rate paid both declined 28 basis points from Q3.
Average deposits were up nearly 3% from Q4 2024, driven largely by commercial client activity. Global banking grew average deposits $74 billion, or 13% compared to Q4 2024. Our global capabilities, innovative solutions, and our relationship managers continue to offer clients value and access to our award-winning digital platform, CashPro. Consumer banking reported its third consecutive quarter of year-over-year growth, and low and no interest checking was up $9 billion, or 2%. Importantly, ending deposits improved sequentially in every segment. The team also showed continued discipline on pricing while achieving that growth. Overall rate paid on total deposits of 163 basis points declined 15 basis points from Q3, reflecting lower rates and disciplined actions in our global banking and wealth management businesses. Global banking and wealth management rate paid both declined 28 basis points from Q3.
Speaker #2: Our global capabilities, innovative solutions, and our relationship managers continue to offer clients value and access to our award-winning digital platform, Cash Growth. Consumer banking reported its third consecutive quarter of year-over-year growth, and low and no interest checking was up $9 billion, or 2%.
Speaker #2: Importantly, ending deposits improved sequentially in every segment. The team also showed continued discipline on pricing while achieving that growth. Overall rate paid on total deposits of 163 basis points declined 15 basis points from Q3, reflecting lower rates and disciplined actions in our Global Banking and Wealth Management businesses.
Speaker #2: Global banking and wealth management rate paid both declined 28 basis points from Q3. The rate paid on the roughly $945 billion of consumer deposits fell 3 basis points to 55 basis points in Q4, and remains low, driven by the operating nature of that account base and that client base.
Alastair Borthwick: The rate paid on the roughly $945 billion of consumer deposits fell 3 basis points to 55 basis points in Q4 and remains low, driven by the operating nature of that account base and that client base. Let's turn to loans by looking at average balances on slide eight. Loans in Q4 of $1.17 trillion improved $90 billion, or 8% year-over-year, driven by 12% commercial loan growth. Consumer loans grew at a slower 4% year-over-year pace and, importantly, were up across every loan category of card, mortgage, auto, and home equity. For the fifth quarter in a row, every business segment recorded higher average loans on a year-over-year basis.
The rate paid on the roughly $945 billion of consumer deposits fell 3 basis points to 55 basis points in Q4 and remains low, driven by the operating nature of that account base and that client base. Let's turn to loans by looking at average balances on slide eight. Loans in Q4 of $1.17 trillion improved $90 billion, or 8% year-over-year, driven by 12% commercial loan growth. Consumer loans grew at a slower 4% year-over-year pace and, importantly, were up across every loan category of card, mortgage, auto, and home equity. For the fifth quarter in a row, every business segment recorded higher average loans on a year-over-year basis.
Speaker #2: Let's turn to loans by looking at average balances on slide eight. Loans in Q4 of $1.17 trillion improved $90 billion, or 8%, year over year, driven by 12% commercial loan growth.
Speaker #2: Consumer loans grew at a slower 4% year-over-year pace and, importantly, were up across every loan category of card, mortgage, auto, and home equity.
Speaker #2: For the fifth quarter in a row, every business segment recorded higher average loans on a year-over-year basis. While commercial loan growth has been driven by our Global Markets group, we've also seen year-over-year growth of 3% in Global Banking, and strong custom lending growth of $18 billion year over year in Wealth Management, as affluent clients borrowed for investments in assets like hospitality, sports, yachts, arts, and business.
Alastair Borthwick: While commercial loan growth has been driven by our global markets group, we've also seen year-over-year growth of 3% in global banking and strong custom lending growth of $18 billion year-over-year in wealth management as affluent clients borrowed for investments in assets like hospitality, sports, yachts, arts, and business. In addition, small business saw its 12th straight quarter of year-over-year lending growth. Let's turn our focus to NII on slide nine, where on a GAAP non-FTE basis, NII in Q4 was $15.8 billion. On a fully taxable equivalent basis, NII was $15.9 billion. As I said earlier, that's up 10% from the fourth quarter of 2024. On a fully taxable equivalent basis, NII grew $1.4 billion year-over-year and $528 million over the third quarter. Our growth was driven by several factors. First, we saw good core NII performance from loan and deposit growth and disciplined pricing.
While commercial loan growth has been driven by our global markets group, we've also seen year-over-year growth of 3% in global banking and strong custom lending growth of $18 billion year-over-year in wealth management as affluent clients borrowed for investments in assets like hospitality, sports, yachts, arts, and business. In addition, small business saw its 12th straight quarter of year-over-year lending growth. Let's turn our focus to NII on slide nine, where on a GAAP non-FTE basis, NII in Q4 was $15.8 billion. On a fully taxable equivalent basis, NII was $15.9 billion. As I said earlier, that's up 10% from the fourth quarter of 2024. On a fully taxable equivalent basis, NII grew $1.4 billion year-over-year and $528 million over the third quarter. Our growth was driven by several factors. First, we saw good core NII performance from loan and deposit growth and disciplined pricing.
Speaker #2: In addition, small business saw its 12th straight quarter of year-over-year lending growth. Let's turn our focus to NII on slide nine, where on a GAAP non-FTE basis, NII in Q4 was $15.8 billion.
Speaker #2: And on a fully taxable equivalent basis, NII was $15.9 billion, and as I said earlier, that's up 10% from the fourth quarter of '24.
Speaker #2: On a fully taxable-equivalent basis, NII grew $1.4 billion year over year, and $528 million over the third quarter. Our growth was driven by several factors.
Speaker #2: First, we saw good core NII performance from loan and deposit growth and disciplined pricing. Second, we benefited from asset repricing, as higher-yielding loan growth replaced loan and security maturities and paydowns.
Alastair Borthwick: Second, we benefited from asset repricing as higher-yielding loan growth replaced loan and security maturities, and paydowns. Third, client activity in global markets drove more of the sales and trading growth through NII than fees this quarter compared to Q3. Now, that was about $100 million more of a shift in global markets activity to NII from MMSA than we had originally anticipated. And lastly, we had a small benefit from an average Fed fund rate, which primarily impacted our liabilities dropping more than the way average SOFR rates behaved on variable-rate assets. So we had a slight benefit there. Our net interest yield, NIY, improved 7 basis points from the third quarter to 208 basis points, reflecting the growth in NII, while the earning balance remained stable as higher-yielding loan balances replaced lower-yielding securities.
Second, we benefited from asset repricing as higher-yielding loan growth replaced loan and security maturities, and paydowns. Third, client activity in global markets drove more of the sales and trading growth through NII than fees this quarter compared to Q3. Now, that was about $100 million more of a shift in global markets activity to NII from MMSA than we had originally anticipated. And lastly, we had a small benefit from an average Fed fund rate, which primarily impacted our liabilities dropping more than the way average SOFR rates behaved on variable-rate assets. So we had a slight benefit there. Our net interest yield, NIY, improved 7 basis points from the third quarter to 208 basis points, reflecting the growth in NII, while the earning balance remained stable as higher-yielding loan balances replaced lower-yielding securities.
Speaker #2: Third, client activity in Global Markets drove more of the sales and trading growth through NII than fees this quarter, compared to Q3. Now, that was about $100 million more of a shift in Global Markets activity to NII from MMSA than we had originally anticipated.
Speaker #2: And lastly, we had a small benefit from an average Fed funds rate, which primarily impacted our liabilities dropping more than the way average SOFR rates behaved on variable rate assets.
Speaker #2: So we had a slight benefit there. Our net interest yield, NIY, improved 7 basis points from the third quarter to 2.08%, reflecting the growth in NII, while the earning balance remained stable as higher-yielding loan balances replaced lower-yielding securities.
Speaker #2: And as I said earlier, higher deposits allowed us to reduce wholesale funding, while cash balances declined. Regarding interest rate sensitivity, on a dynamic deposit basis, we provide a 12-month change in NII for an instantaneous shift in the curve.
Alastair Borthwick: As I said earlier, higher deposits allowed us to reduce wholesale funding while cash balances declined. Regarding interest rate sensitivity, on a dynamic deposit basis, we provide a 12-month change in NII for an instantaneous shift in the curve. That means interest rates would have to move instantaneously lower by another 100 basis points more than the two expected cuts contemplated in the curve. On that basis, a 100 basis point decline would decrease NII growth over the next 12 months by $2 billion. And if rates went up 100 basis points, NII growth would benefit additionally by approximately $700 million. With regard to a forward view of NII, let me give you a few thoughts. At Investor Day in November, we indicated our expectation that we would see 5% to 7% growth in net interest income in 2026 compared to 2025.
As I said earlier, higher deposits allowed us to reduce wholesale funding while cash balances declined. Regarding interest rate sensitivity, on a dynamic deposit basis, we provide a 12-month change in NII for an instantaneous shift in the curve. That means interest rates would have to move instantaneously lower by another 100 basis points more than the two expected cuts contemplated in the curve. On that basis, a 100 basis point decline would decrease NII growth over the next 12 months by $2 billion. And if rates went up 100 basis points, NII growth would benefit additionally by approximately $700 million. With regard to a forward view of NII, let me give you a few thoughts. At Investor Day in November, we indicated our expectation that we would see 5% to 7% growth in net interest income in 2026 compared to 2025.
Speaker #2: That means interest rates would have to move instantaneously lower by another 100 basis points, more than the two expected cuts contemplated in the curve.
Speaker #2: On that basis, a 100 basis point decline would decrease NII growth over the next 12 months by $2 billion, and if rates went up 100 basis points, NII growth would benefit additionally by approximately $700 million.
Speaker #2: With regard to a forward view of NII, let me give you a few thoughts. At Investor Day in November, we indicated our expectation that we would see 5% to 7% growth in net interest income in 2026, compared to 2025.
Speaker #2: And that's still our belief today, based on the latest interest rate curve, which includes two rate cuts in 2026. To reiterate our expectation from Investor Day, we expect good core NII performance from loan and deposit growth that will additionally benefit from sizable fixed asset repricing, and cash flow swap repricing, to drive the 5 to 7% NII improvement.
Alastair Borthwick: That's still our belief today based on the latest interest rate curve, which includes two rate cuts in 2026. To reiterate our expectation from Investor Day, we expect good core NII performance from loan and deposit growth that will additionally benefit from sizable fixed asset repricing and cash flow swap repricing to drive the 5% to 7% NII improvement. During 2026, we expect roughly $12 to $15 billion in combined mortgage-backed securities and mortgage loans to roll off quarterly, and those will be replaced with new assets at 150 to 200 basis points higher in yield, or they'll allow us to pay down expensive short-term debt. For Q1 NII expectations, I would use Q4 as a base after excluding about $100 million or so for the shift in global markets client activity that I referenced.
That's still our belief today based on the latest interest rate curve, which includes two rate cuts in 2026. To reiterate our expectation from Investor Day, we expect good core NII performance from loan and deposit growth that will additionally benefit from sizable fixed asset repricing and cash flow swap repricing to drive the 5% to 7% NII improvement. During 2026, we expect roughly $12 to $15 billion in combined mortgage-backed securities and mortgage loans to roll off quarterly, and those will be replaced with new assets at 150 to 200 basis points higher in yield, or they'll allow us to pay down expensive short-term debt. For Q1 NII expectations, I would use Q4 as a base after excluding about $100 million or so for the shift in global markets client activity that I referenced.
Speaker #2: During 2026, we expect roughly $12 to $15 billion in combined mortgage-backed securities and mortgage loans to roll off quarterly. And those will be replaced with new assets at 150 to 200 basis points higher in yield, or they'll allow us to pay down expensive short-term debt.
Speaker #2: For Q1 NII expectations, I would use Q4 as a base after excluding about $100 million or so for the shift in Global Markets client activity that I referenced, that is likely to be offset in MMSA.
Alastair Borthwick: That is likely to be offset in MMSA, so simply a change in geography that's revenue-neutral. I'd also note we have two last days of interest in Q1 and Q4, and of course, we had a 25 basis points rate cut in December. Still, we expect Q1 NII will grow roughly 7% from Q1 2025 based on the assumptions on slide 18, in line with our full-year guidance. Okay. So let's turn to expense, and we'll use slide 10 for our discussion. This quarter, we reported $17.4 billion in expense, up a little less than 4% year-over-year. When combined with our 7% revenue growth, this good expense management allowed us to generate more than 300 basis points of operating leverage, and that aligns to our target for the medium-term operating leverage range that we conveyed at Investor Day.
That is likely to be offset in MMSA, so simply a change in geography that's revenue-neutral. I'd also note we have two last days of interest in Q1 and Q4, and of course, we had a 25 basis points rate cut in December. Still, we expect Q1 NII will grow roughly 7% from Q1 2025 based on the assumptions on slide 18, in line with our full-year guidance. Okay. So let's turn to expense, and we'll use slide 10 for our discussion. This quarter, we reported $17.4 billion in expense, up a little less than 4% year-over-year. When combined with our 7% revenue growth, this good expense management allowed us to generate more than 300 basis points of operating leverage, and that aligns to our target for the medium-term operating leverage range that we conveyed at Investor Day.
Speaker #2: So, simply a change in geography that's revenue neutral. I'd also note we have two last days of interest in Q1 and Q4. And, of course, we had a 25 basis point rate cut in December.
Speaker #2: Still, we expect Q1 NII will grow roughly 7% from Q1 '25, based on the assumptions on slide 18, in line with our full-year guidance.
Speaker #2: Okay. So let's turn to expense, and we'll use slide 10 for our discussion. This quarter, we reported $17.4 billion in expense, up a little less than 4% year over year.
Speaker #2: When combined with our 7% revenue growth, this good expense management allowed us to generate more than 300 basis points of operating leverage. And that aligns to our target for the medium-term operating leverage range that we conveyed at Investor Day.
Speaker #2: The increase in expense was mainly driven by incentives tied to revenue growth and higher brokerage, clearing, and exchange costs, or BCE costs, from trading activity.
Alastair Borthwick: The increase in expense was mainly driven by incentives tied to revenue growth and higher brokerage clearing and exchange costs, or BCE costs, from trading activity. Those BCE costs reflect client activity shifting toward higher growth and higher transaction cost overseas markets. Now, these costs are the ones that are generally reimbursed by the client, so they're included in our revenue and essentially offset one another. If we isolate change in expense for the incentives tied to wealth management, and remember, that reflects a 13% year-over-year improvement in asset management fees, and we isolate the BCE costs that supported a 10% increase in sales and trading revenue, then combined, they represented roughly 2% of our expense growth for the year, and they came with good revenue. Beyond that, productivity improvements from AI and digitalization continued to help offset higher wages, benefits, and technology investments.
The increase in expense was mainly driven by incentives tied to revenue growth and higher brokerage clearing and exchange costs, or BCE costs, from trading activity. Those BCE costs reflect client activity shifting toward higher growth and higher transaction cost overseas markets. Now, these costs are the ones that are generally reimbursed by the client, so they're included in our revenue and essentially offset one another. If we isolate change in expense for the incentives tied to wealth management, and remember, that reflects a 13% year-over-year improvement in asset management fees, and we isolate the BCE costs that supported a 10% increase in sales and trading revenue, then combined, they represented roughly 2% of our expense growth for the year, and they came with good revenue. Beyond that, productivity improvements from AI and digitalization continued to help offset higher wages, benefits, and technology investments.
Speaker #2: Those BC and E costs reflect client activity shifting toward higher-growth and higher-transaction-cost overseas markets. Now, these costs are the ones that are generally reimbursed by the client, so they're included in our revenue and essentially offset one another.
Speaker #2: If we isolate the change in expense for the incentives tied to wealth management—and remember, that reflects a 13% year-over-year improvement in asset management fees—and we isolate the BC&E costs, that supported a 10% increase in sales and trading revenue, then combined, they represented roughly 2% of our expense growth for the year, and they came with good revenue.
Speaker #2: Beyond that, productivity improvements from AI and digitalization continued to help offset higher wages, benefits, and technology investments. Headcount remains our key driver of expense.
Alastair Borthwick: Headcount remains our key driver of expense, from compensation and benefits to real estate and technology, and we manage this closely, not only in total numbers but also in organizational structure, aiming to strike the right balance of managers and teammates. Since the end of 2023, we've operated within a tight range of 213,000 employees. This year, we hired about 17,000 new teammates just to replace departures from what was a very low attrition rate. Every time someone leaves, we take the opportunity to evaluate whether the role needs to be replaced. Compared to the third quarter, non-interest expense was up about $100 million, driven by technology investments and wealth management revenue-related costs. That was partially offset by a $200 million net benefit from the combined impact of the reduction of the FDIC special assessment accrual and some other settlements that modestly increased litigation expense.
Headcount remains our key driver of expense, from compensation and benefits to real estate and technology, and we manage this closely, not only in total numbers but also in organizational structure, aiming to strike the right balance of managers and teammates. Since the end of 2023, we've operated within a tight range of 213,000 employees. This year, we hired about 17,000 new teammates just to replace departures from what was a very low attrition rate. Every time someone leaves, we take the opportunity to evaluate whether the role needs to be replaced. Compared to the third quarter, non-interest expense was up about $100 million, driven by technology investments and wealth management revenue-related costs. That was partially offset by a $200 million net benefit from the combined impact of the reduction of the FDIC special assessment accrual and some other settlements that modestly increased litigation expense.
Speaker #2: From compensation and benefits, to real estate and technology. And we manage this closely not only in total numbers, but also in organizational structure, aiming to strike the right balance of managers and teammates.
Speaker #2: Since the end of 2023, we've operated within a tight range of 213,000 employees. This year, we hired about 17,000 new teammates just to replace departures, from what was a very low attrition rate.
Speaker #2: And every time someone leaves, we take the opportunity to evaluate whether the role needs to be replaced. Compared to the third quarter, non-interest expense was up about $100 million, driven by technology investments and wealth management revenue-related costs.
Speaker #2: That was partially offset by a $200 million net benefit from the combined impact of the reduction of the FDIC special assessment accrual and some other settlements that modestly increased litigation expense.
Speaker #2: Looking ahead, our focus remains on delivering operating leverage for shareholders. We expect to generate about 200 basis points of operating leverage in 2026. Those expectations include a constructive fee environment that complements our expected NII growth.
Alastair Borthwick: Looking ahead, our focus remains on delivering operating leverage for shareholders. We expect to generate about 200 basis points of operating leverage in 2026. Those expectations include a constructive fee environment that complements our expected NII growth. We've seen encouraging momentum in asset management fees, investment banking, and sales and trading, and we look for that to continue. Importantly, if revenue comes in below our expectations, then obviously revenue-related expense will be lower. As for Q1, we typically see seasonal strength in sales and trading activity and elevated payroll tax expense. Combined with the absence of the FDIC benefit we saw in Q4 and combined with ongoing productivity improvements, we expect Q1 expenses to be about 4% higher than Q1 2025. Even with that, we still expect to deliver operating leverage.
Looking ahead, our focus remains on delivering operating leverage for shareholders. We expect to generate about 200 basis points of operating leverage in 2026. Those expectations include a constructive fee environment that complements our expected NII growth. We've seen encouraging momentum in asset management fees, investment banking, and sales and trading, and we look for that to continue. Importantly, if revenue comes in below our expectations, then obviously revenue-related expense will be lower. As for Q1, we typically see seasonal strength in sales and trading activity and elevated payroll tax expense. Combined with the absence of the FDIC benefit we saw in Q4 and combined with ongoing productivity improvements, we expect Q1 expenses to be about 4% higher than Q1 2025. Even with that, we still expect to deliver operating leverage.
Speaker #2: We've seen encouraging momentum in asset management fees, investment banking, and sales and trading, and we look for that to continue. And importantly, if revenue comes in below our expectations, then obviously revenue-related expense will be lower.
Speaker #2: As for Q1, we typically see seasonal strength in sales and trading activity, and elevated payroll tax expense. Combined with the absence of the FDIC benefit we saw in the fourth quarter, and ongoing productivity improvements, we expect Q1 expenses to be about 4% higher than Q1 of 2025.
Speaker #2: And even with that, we still expect to deliver operating leverage. Let's now move to credit and turn to slide 11, where you can see asset quality remains sound, with small improvements in several key indicators.
Alastair Borthwick: Let's now move to credit and turn to slide 11, where you can see asset quality remains sound with small improvements in several key indicators. There's not a great deal to cover here. Our net charge-offs were $1.3 billion, down about $80 million from the third quarter, and driven by lower losses in commercial real estate. The total net charge-off ratio this quarter was 44 basis points, down 3 basis points from the third quarter, and down 10 basis points from Q4 2024. Provision expense in the quarter was $1.3 billion and mostly matched net charge-offs. Focusing on total net charge-offs, looking forward in the near term, we expect continued stability in total net charge-offs. Given the mostly benign consumer delinquency trends and low unemployment data, the continued stability of C and I, and reductions in our commercial real estate exposures.
Let's now move to credit and turn to slide 11, where you can see asset quality remains sound with small improvements in several key indicators. There's not a great deal to cover here. Our net charge-offs were $1.3 billion, down about $80 million from the third quarter, and driven by lower losses in commercial real estate. The total net charge-off ratio this quarter was 44 basis points, down 3 basis points from the third quarter, and down 10 basis points from Q4 2024. Provision expense in the quarter was $1.3 billion and mostly matched net charge-offs. Focusing on total net charge-offs, looking forward in the near term, we expect continued stability in total net charge-offs. Given the mostly benign consumer delinquency trends and low unemployment data, the continued stability of C and I, and reductions in our commercial real estate exposures.
Speaker #2: It's not a great deal to cover here. Our net charge-offs were $1.3 billion, down about $80 million from the third quarter, and driven by lower losses in commercial real estate.
Speaker #2: The total net charge-off ratio this quarter was 44 basis points, down 3 basis points from the third quarter, and down 10 basis points from Q4 '24.
Speaker #2: Provision expense in the quarter was $1.3 billion, and mostly matched net charge-offs. Focusing on total net charge-offs, looking forward, in the near term, we expect continued stability in total net charge-offs, given the mostly benign consumer delinquency trends and low unemployment data, the continued stability of C&I, and reductions in our commercial real estate exposures.
Speaker #2: On slide 12, in addition to the consumer delinquency statistics, note the modest changes in other stats for both our consumer and commercial portfolios. Let's now turn to the performance across our lines of business, beginning with Consumer Banking on slide 13.
Alastair Borthwick: On slide 12, in addition to the consumer delinquency statistics, note the modest changes in other stats for both our consumer and commercial portfolios. Let's now turn to the performance across our lines of business, beginning with consumer banking on slide 13. Our consumer bank had a strong year, and for the full year, the team generated $44 billion in revenue and delivered $12 billion in net income. Net income grew 14% from 2024, and we earned a 28% return on allocated capital. In Q4, consumer banking delivered strong results, generating $11.2 billion in revenue, up 5% versus the fourth quarter of last year, and $3.3 billion in net income, up 17%. So a really strong finish to the year. These results reflect the value of our deposit franchise and underscore both the breadth of our platform and the success of our organic growth strategy and digital banking capabilities.
On slide 12, in addition to the consumer delinquency statistics, note the modest changes in other stats for both our consumer and commercial portfolios. Let's now turn to the performance across our lines of business, beginning with consumer banking on slide 13. Our consumer bank had a strong year, and for the full year, the team generated $44 billion in revenue and delivered $12 billion in net income. Net income grew 14% from 2024, and we earned a 28% return on allocated capital. In Q4, consumer banking delivered strong results, generating $11.2 billion in revenue, up 5% versus the fourth quarter of last year, and $3.3 billion in net income, up 17%. So a really strong finish to the year. These results reflect the value of our deposit franchise and underscore both the breadth of our platform and the success of our organic growth strategy and digital banking capabilities.
Speaker #2: Our Consumer Bank had a strong year, and for the full year, the team generated $44 billion in revenue and delivered $12 billion in net income.
Speaker #2: Net income grew 14% from 2024, and we earned a 28% return on allocated capital. In Q4, consumer banking delivered strong results, generating $11.2 billion in revenue, up 5% versus the fourth quarter of last year, and $3.3 billion in net income, up 17%.
Speaker #2: So, a really strong finish to the year. These results reflect the value of our deposit franchise, and underscore both the breadth of our platform and the success of our organic growth strategy.
Speaker #2: And digital banking capabilities. Our focus on client experience, and investments in both physical and digital capabilities, combined with more investment in product innovation and rewards, drove the strong results.
Alastair Borthwick: Our focus on client experience and investments in both physical and digital capabilities, combined with more investment in product innovation and rewards, drove the strong results. Business was also managed well for shareholders as we grew expense less than 2%, allowing us to improve our efficiency ratio to 51% and deliver nearly 350 basis points of operating leverage. This 2% expense growth reflects our continued investments in our brand, highlighted by our minimum wage increase to $25 earlier this year and incentives for more production. Digitalization and early utilization of AI helped offset some of the investments. Consumer investment balances grew $81 billion from Q4 2024 to nearly $600 billion, supported by $19 billion in full-year client flows and market appreciation. Average balance per investment account at $147,000 is up 12% from last year.
Our focus on client experience and investments in both physical and digital capabilities, combined with more investment in product innovation and rewards, drove the strong results. Business was also managed well for shareholders as we grew expense less than 2%, allowing us to improve our efficiency ratio to 51% and deliver nearly 350 basis points of operating leverage. This 2% expense growth reflects our continued investments in our brand, highlighted by our minimum wage increase to $25 earlier this year and incentives for more production. Digitalization and early utilization of AI helped offset some of the investments. Consumer investment balances grew $81 billion from Q4 2024 to nearly $600 billion, supported by $19 billion in full-year client flows and market appreciation. Average balance per investment account at $147,000 is up 12% from last year.
Speaker #2: Business was also managed well for shareholders, as we grew expense less than 2%, allowing us to improve our efficiency ratio to 51%, and deliver nearly 350 basis points of operating leverage.
Speaker #2: This 2% expense growth reflects our continued investments in our brand, highlighted by our minimum wage increase to $25 earlier this year, and incentives for more production.
Speaker #2: Digitalization and early utilization of AI helped offset some of the investments. Consumer investment balances grew $81 billion from Q4 '24 to nearly $600 billion, supported by $19 billion in full-year client flows and market appreciation.
Speaker #2: The average balance per investment account at $147,000 is up 12% from last year. And this investment platform serves as a great catch basin for first-time investors, and for more experienced investors looking to manage some element of their own money.
Alastair Borthwick: This investment platform serves as a great catch basin for first-time investors and for more experienced investors looking to manage some element of their own money. As mentioned, consumer net charge-offs improved again on a year-over-year basis, and we continue to see stability in asset quality metrics. Credit card net charge ratio of 3.4% improved nearly 40 basis points from Q4 and improved last quarter. Finally, as shown in appendix, this is slide 21. You can see strong digital adoption and the engagement that all continued, and the customer experience scores remain strong, reflecting the impact of our ongoing investments in digital. Turning to wealth management on slide 14, and you can see this is a business that has strong momentum right now, and we've improved growth as we work towards the medium-term targets laid out at Investor Day.
This investment platform serves as a great catch basin for first-time investors and for more experienced investors looking to manage some element of their own money. As mentioned, consumer net charge-offs improved again on a year-over-year basis, and we continue to see stability in asset quality metrics. Credit card net charge ratio of 3.4% improved nearly 40 basis points from Q4 and improved last quarter. Finally, as shown in appendix, this is slide 21. You can see strong digital adoption and the engagement that all continued, and the customer experience scores remain strong, reflecting the impact of our ongoing investments in digital. Turning to wealth management on slide 14, and you can see this is a business that has strong momentum right now, and we've improved growth as we work towards the medium-term targets laid out at Investor Day.
Speaker #2: As mentioned, consumer net charge-offs improved again on a year-over-year basis, and we continue to see stability in asset quality metrics. The credit card net charge-off ratio of 3.4% improved nearly 40 basis points from Q4, and improved linked quarter.
Speaker #2: Finally, as shown in the appendix—this is slide 21—you can see strong digital adoption and engagement that all continued, and the customer experience scores remain strong, reflecting the impact of our ongoing investments.
Speaker #2: In digital, turning to Wealth Management on slide 14, you can see this is a business that has strong momentum right now, and we've improved growth as we work towards the medium-term targets laid out at Investor Day.
Speaker #2: For the full year, revenue of $25 billion grew 9% compared to 2024, and net income grew 10% to nearly $4.7 billion. Over the past three quarters, net income's gone from $1 billion in Q2 to nearly $1.3 billion in Q3, and to $1.4 billion in Q4.
Alastair Borthwick: For the full year, revenue of $25 billion grew 9% compared to 2024, and net income grew 10% to nearly $4.7 billion. Over the past three quarters, net income's gone from $1 billion in Q2 to nearly $1.3 billion in Q3, and to $1.4 billion in Q4. Return on allocated capital went from 20% in Q2 up to 28% in Q4, and the pre-tax margin has climbed back into the high 20% range as we ended the year. Underneath all that, client balances grew $500 billion across the year to $4.8 trillion, and that included strong-ending loan growth of nearly $30 billion, or 13%. Within that, AUM flows were $82 billion and total flows of $96 billion. When coupled with the flows of consumer investments, we saw $115 billion of wealth flows for the firm this year.
For the full year, revenue of $25 billion grew 9% compared to 2024, and net income grew 10% to nearly $4.7 billion. Over the past three quarters, net income's gone from $1 billion in Q2 to nearly $1.3 billion in Q3, and to $1.4 billion in Q4. Return on allocated capital went from 20% in Q2 up to 28% in Q4, and the pre-tax margin has climbed back into the high 20% range as we ended the year. Underneath all that, client balances grew $500 billion across the year to $4.8 trillion, and that included strong-ending loan growth of nearly $30 billion, or 13%. Within that, AUM flows were $82 billion and total flows of $96 billion. When coupled with the flows of consumer investments, we saw $115 billion of wealth flows for the firm this year.
Speaker #2: Return on allocated capital went from 20% in Q2 up to 28% in Q4, and the pre-tax margin has climbed back into the high-20% range as we ended the year.
Speaker #2: Underneath all that, client balances grew $500 billion across the year to $4.8 trillion, and that included strong ending loan growth of nearly $30 billion, or 13%.
Speaker #2: Within that, AUM flows were $82 billion, and total flows of $96 billion. When coupled with the flows of consumer investments, we saw $115 billion of wealth flows for the firm this year.
Speaker #2: And for the year, Merrill and the Private Bank added 21,000 net new relationships, with the average size of new relationships continuing to grow across both businesses.
Alastair Borthwick: And for the year, Merrill and the private bank added 21,000 net new relationships, with the average size of new relationships continuing to grow across both businesses. Importantly, we're not just growing relationships. We're deepening them as we added 114,000 new bank accounts this year. And finally, I'd highlight the continued digital momentum, as shown on slide 23, where new accounts have increasingly opened digitally, underscoring the effectiveness of our digital investments and the evolving preferences of our clients. On slide 15, you see the results for global banking. The team had a good year and generated $7.8 billion in earnings, and that represented about 25% of the company's overall net income. Year-over-year earnings were down a modest 2% as a result of interest rate cuts impacting NII from the variable-rate assets in the business. Team grew average deposits $71 billion, or 13%, and grew loans $12 billion.
And for the year, Merrill and the private bank added 21,000 net new relationships, with the average size of new relationships continuing to grow across both businesses. Importantly, we're not just growing relationships. We're deepening them as we added 114,000 new bank accounts this year. And finally, I'd highlight the continued digital momentum, as shown on slide 23, where new accounts have increasingly opened digitally, underscoring the effectiveness of our digital investments and the evolving preferences of our clients. On slide 15, you see the results for global banking. The team had a good year and generated $7.8 billion in earnings, and that represented about 25% of the company's overall net income. Year-over-year earnings were down a modest 2% as a result of interest rate cuts impacting NII from the variable-rate assets in the business. Team grew average deposits $71 billion, or 13%, and grew loans $12 billion.
Speaker #2: Importantly, we're not just growing relationships—we're deepening them, as we added 114,000 new bank accounts this year. And finally, I'd highlight the continued digital momentum, as shown on slide 23, where new accounts have increasingly opened digitally, underscoring the effectiveness of our digital investments and the evolving preferences of our clients.
Speaker #2: On slide 15, you see the results for Global Banking. The team had a good year, and generated $7.8 billion in earnings, which represented about 25% of the company's overall net income.
Speaker #2: Year-over-year earnings were down a modest 2%, as a result of interest rate cuts impacting NII from the variable rate assets in the business. The team grew average deposits by $71 billion, or 13%, and grew loans by $12 billion.
Speaker #2: This included the addition of roughly 500 new clients in Middle Market Banking, and more than 1,000 in Business Banking, that chose Bank of America as their financial services provider in 2025.
Alastair Borthwick: This included the addition of roughly 500 new clients in middle market banking and more than 1,000 in business banking. They chose Bank of America as their financial services provider in 2025. For the fourth quarter, global banking delivered net income of $2.1 billion, down 3% year-over-year, with a 6% improvement in fees, overcoming the NII pressure. Business remains very efficient with a 50% efficiency ratio, and we earned 16% return on allocated capital in Q4. We generated $1.67 billion in investment banking fees, up modestly over Q4 2024, and we maintained our number three position for the full year. And as Brian and I said earlier, investment banking fees showed good momentum given all the regulatory and tariff announcements around the globe and the certainty settling in, and our pipeline remains strong.
This included the addition of roughly 500 new clients in middle market banking and more than 1,000 in business banking. They chose Bank of America as their financial services provider in 2025. For the fourth quarter, global banking delivered net income of $2.1 billion, down 3% year-over-year, with a 6% improvement in fees, overcoming the NII pressure. Business remains very efficient with a 50% efficiency ratio, and we earned 16% return on allocated capital in Q4. We generated $1.67 billion in investment banking fees, up modestly over Q4 2024, and we maintained our number three position for the full year. And as Brian and I said earlier, investment banking fees showed good momentum given all the regulatory and tariff announcements around the globe and the certainty settling in, and our pipeline remains strong.
Speaker #2: For the fourth quarter, global banking delivered net income of $2.1 billion, down 3% year-over-year, with a 6% improvement in fees, overcoming the NII pressure.
Speaker #2: Business remains very efficient with a 50% efficiency ratio, and we earned a 16% return on allocated capital in Q4. We generated $1.67 billion in investment banking fees, up modestly over Q4 '24, and we maintained our number three position for the full year.
Speaker #2: And as Brian and I said earlier, investment banking fees showed good momentum given all the regulatory and tariff announcements around the globe and the certainty settling in, and our pipeline remains strong.
Speaker #2: Non-interest expense grew 6% compared to last year, as we positioned the firm for the future with continued investments in technology and bankers. Switching to Global Markets on slide 16, I'll focus my comments on results that exclude DVA, as we typically do.
Alastair Borthwick: Non-interest expense grew 6% compared to last year as we position the firm for the future with continued investments in technology and bankers. Switching to global markets on slide 16, I'll focus my comments on results that exclude DVA, as we typically do. The global markets team produced a record year of revenue, improved earnings, and solid returns. We generated $24 billion in revenue for the year, and that exceeded last year's revenue by 10%. Earnings of $6.1 billion for the year were up 8%, and the business generated a 13% return on allocated capital. It's worth noting this is the 12th consecutive quarter of year-over-year net income growth. Q4, global markets generated net income just shy of $1 billion, up 5% from Q4 2024. Revenue, excluding DVA, grew 10% year-over-year, driven by strong sales and trading performance.
Non-interest expense grew 6% compared to last year as we position the firm for the future with continued investments in technology and bankers. Switching to global markets on slide 16, I'll focus my comments on results that exclude DVA, as we typically do. The global markets team produced a record year of revenue, improved earnings, and solid returns. We generated $24 billion in revenue for the year, and that exceeded last year's revenue by 10%. Earnings of $6.1 billion for the year were up 8%, and the business generated a 13% return on allocated capital. It's worth noting this is the 12th consecutive quarter of year-over-year net income growth. Q4, global markets generated net income just shy of $1 billion, up 5% from Q4 2024. Revenue, excluding DVA, grew 10% year-over-year, driven by strong sales and trading performance.
Speaker #2: The global markets team produced a record year of—record, sorry—a record year of revenue, improved earnings, and solid returns. We generated $24 billion in revenue for the year, and that exceeded last year's revenue by 10%.
Speaker #2: Earnings of $6.1 billion for the year were up 8%, and the business generated a 13% return on allocated capital. It's worth noting this is the 12th consecutive quarter of year-over-year net income growth.
Speaker #2: Q4, global markets generated net income just shy of $1 billion, up 5% from Q4 '24. Revenue excluding DVA grew 10% year-over-year, driven by strong sales and trading performance.
Speaker #2: I'm focusing on Sales and Trading. Revenue ex-DVA rose 10% year-over-year to $4.5 billion. And it was equities trading that led the improvement, growing 23%.
Alastair Borthwick: Focusing on sales and trading, revenue ex DVA rose 10% year-over-year to $4.5 billion. It was equities trading that led the improvement, growing 23%, supported by increased activity in Asia. That brought higher revenue. It also brought higher revenue, sorry, higher cost in the form of transaction costs, as the clients still reimburse us for those fees. FICC revenue grew 1%, driven by improved performance in macro rates and FX products, offsetting a modest decline in credit products. Loan growth continues to benefit from opportunities tied to highly collateralized pools of high-quality assets, and clients value our expertise and liquidity in delivering these solutions. On slide 17, all other shows a loss of $132 million in Q4, with very little to cover here. As we wrap up, I would just note the Q4 effective tax rate was 21%, and it was 19% for the full year.
Focusing on sales and trading, revenue ex DVA rose 10% year-over-year to $4.5 billion. It was equities trading that led the improvement, growing 23%, supported by increased activity in Asia. That brought higher revenue. It also brought higher revenue, sorry, higher cost in the form of transaction costs, as the clients still reimburse us for those fees. FICC revenue grew 1%, driven by improved performance in macro rates and FX products, offsetting a modest decline in credit products. Loan growth continues to benefit from opportunities tied to highly collateralized pools of high-quality assets, and clients value our expertise and liquidity in delivering these solutions. On slide 17, all other shows a loss of $132 million in Q4, with very little to cover here. As we wrap up, I would just note the Q4 effective tax rate was 21%, and it was 19% for the full year.
Speaker #2: Supported by increased activity in Asia, and that brought higher revenue. It also brought higher revenue—sorry, higher cost—in the form of transaction costs, as the clients still reimburse us for those fees.
Speaker #2: Thick revenue grew 1%, driven by improved performance in macro rates and FX products, offsetting a modest decline in credit products. Loan growth continues to benefit from opportunities tied to highly collateralized pools of high-quality assets.
Speaker #2: And clients value our expertise and liquidity in delivering these solutions. On slide 17, 'all other' shows a loss of $132 million in Q4, with very little to cover here.
Speaker #2: And as we wrap up, I would just note the Q4 effective tax rate was 21%, and it was 19% for the full year. For 2026, we expect an effective tax rate of roughly 20%.
Alastair Borthwick: For 2026, we expect an effective tax rate of roughly 20%. Then finally, I just note on slide 18, we provided a summary of the forward-looking guidance that we discussed today. I'll stop there. Thank you. With that, we'll jump into Q&A.
For 2026, we expect an effective tax rate of roughly 20%. Then finally, I just note on slide 18, we provided a summary of the forward-looking guidance that we discussed today. I'll stop there. Thank you. With that, we'll jump into Q&A.
Speaker #2: And then, finally, I'll just note, on slide 18, we provided a summary of the forward-looking guidance that we discussed today. So I'll stop there.
Speaker #2: Thank you, and with that, we'll jump into Q&A. Thank you. If you'd like to ask a question, press star one on your keypad. To leave the queue at any time, press star two.
Operator: Thank you. If you'd like to ask a question, press Star 1 on your keypad. To leave the queue at any time, press Star 2. Once again, that is Star 1 to ask a question. We'll pause for just a moment to allow everyone a chance to join the queue. Thank you. Our first question comes from Betsy Graseck with Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead. Your line is open.
Operator: Thank you. If you'd like to ask a question, press Star 1 on your keypad. To leave the queue at any time, press Star 2. Once again, that is Star 1 to ask a question. We'll pause for just a moment to allow everyone a chance to join the queue. Thank you. Our first question comes from Betsy Graseck with Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead. Your line is open.
Speaker #2: Once again, that is *star one* to ask a question. We'll pause for just a moment to allow everyone a chance to join the queue.
Speaker #2: Thank you. Our first question comes from Betsy Grossick with Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead, your line is open.
Speaker #2: is open. Hi, good
Lee E. McEntire: Hi. Good morning.
Betsy Graseck: Hi. Good morning.
Speaker #4: Good morning.
Brian Moynihan: Morning.
Alastair Borthwick: Morning.
Speaker #3: Thanks so much for all the detail here. I did just want to understand one thing on the outlook. As we're thinking about the expense ratio, I know that you've got the accounting change, and you also have outstanding guidance for the expense ratio.
Lee E. McEntire: Thanks so much for all the detail here. I did just want to understand one thing on the outlook as we're thinking about the expense ratio. I know that you've got the accounting change, and you also have outstanding guidance for the expense ratio over the medium term. I believe it is 55% to 59%.
Betsy Graseck: Thanks so much for all the detail here. I did just want to understand one thing on the outlook as we're thinking about the expense ratio. I know that you've got the accounting change, and you also have outstanding guidance for the expense ratio over the medium term. I believe it is 55% to 59%.
Speaker #3: Over the medium term, I believe it is 55 to
Speaker #3: 59%. Right. Is that right? Okay.
Brian Moynihan: Correct.
Alastair Borthwick: Correct.
Lee E. McEntire: Is that right? Okay. I'm wondering, are you going to be adjusting that efficiency ratio guide given the accounting changes that you have made in this quarter?
Betsy Graseck: Is that right? Okay. I'm wondering, are you going to be adjusting that efficiency ratio guide given the accounting changes that you have made in this quarter?
Speaker #4: Yep.
Speaker #3: I'm wondering, are you going to be adjusting that expense ratio guide given the accounting changes that you have made in this?
Speaker #3: quarter? Well, I don't
Brian Moynihan: Well, I don't think it's so at this stage, Betsy, but similar to our comments on Investor Day, the numbers that we put out aren't a cap on our ambition. So obviously, as we go through the course of the next couple of years, if we improved our efficiency ratio by a couple hundred basis points this year, we're going to keep driving towards that range. And once we get in that range, we'll reassess and we'll consider whether it's time to consider a lower efficiency number in the future.
Alastair Borthwick: Well, I don't think it's so at this stage, Betsy, but similar to our comments on Investor Day, the numbers that we put out aren't a cap on our ambition. So obviously, as we go through the course of the next couple of years, if we improved our efficiency ratio by a couple hundred basis points this year, we're going to keep driving towards that range. And once we get in that range, we'll reassess and we'll consider whether it's time to consider a lower efficiency number in the future.
Speaker #4: Think it—so at this stage, Betsy, but similar to our comments on Investor Day, the numbers that we put out aren't a cap on our ambition.
Speaker #4: So obviously, as we go through the course of the next couple of years, if we improved our efficiency ratio by a couple hundred basis points this year, we're going to keep driving towards that range.
Speaker #4: And once we get in that range, we'll reassess, and we'll consider whether it's time to consider a lower efficiency number in the future.
Speaker #4: And once we get in that range, we'll reassess, and we'll consider whether it's time to consider a lower efficiency number in the future. Yeah, I was just thinking—
Lee E. McEntire: Yeah. I was just thinking mechanically, with the accounting change, the revenues improve, right? So with the denominator moving higher, shouldn't that target expense ratio of 55% to 59% move down a percentage point on each side?
Betsy Graseck: Yeah. I was just thinking mechanically, with the accounting change, the revenues improve, right? So with the denominator moving higher, shouldn't that target expense ratio of 55% to 59% move down a percentage point on each side?
Speaker #3: Mechanically, with the accounting change, the revenues improve, right? So with the denominator moving higher, shouldn't that target expense ratio of 55 to 59 move down a percentage point on each?
Speaker #3: side? Well, remember, we recast
Brian Moynihan: Well, remember, we recast the prior periods, so that's already in there when you use the comparative periods. I think part of the reason that it was important for us just to recast all the numbers and adopt the accounting is because that's how our competitors showed their results. Now we feel like it's on a comparable footing.
Alastair Borthwick: Well, remember, we recast the prior periods, so that's already in there when you use the comparative periods. I think part of the reason that it was important for us just to recast all the numbers and adopt the accounting is because that's how our competitors showed their results. Now we feel like it's on a comparable footing.
Speaker #4: The prior period, so that's already in there when you use the comparative periods. And I think part of the reason that it was important for us just to recast all the numbers and adopt the accounting is because that's how our competitors showed their results.
Speaker #4: So now we feel like it's on a comparable.
Speaker #4: footing. Okay.
Lee E. McEntire: Okay. Thanks so much.
Betsy Graseck: Okay. Thanks so much.
Speaker #3: Thanks so much.
Speaker #2: Thank you. We'll now move on to Ken Usdin of Autonomous Research. Your line is now open.
Operator: Thank you. We'll now move on to Ken Usdin of Autonomous Research. Your line is now open.
Operator: Thank you. We'll now move on to Ken Usdin of Autonomous Research. Your line is now open.
Speaker #5: Hi, thank you. Good morning. So, yeah, just a follow-up—Alastair, you made the point about your outlook for fees being strong, and obviously, there'll be compensation aligned with that.
Alastair Borthwick: Hi. Thank you. Good morning. So just a follow-up, Alastair, you made the point about just your outlook for fees is strong, and obviously, there'll be compensation aligned with that. So just coming back on expenses in an absolute sense with 4% year-over-year growth expected in Q1, and I know everyone's just thinking about just how do you get to this operating leverage algorithm. Is that around what you're expecting, just absolute expenses to grow given your underlying base of good fee growth in there?
Ken Usdin: Hi. Thank you. Good morning. So just a follow-up, Alastair, you made the point about just your outlook for fees is strong, and obviously, there'll be compensation aligned with that. So just coming back on expenses in an absolute sense with 4% year-over-year growth expected in Q1, and I know everyone's just thinking about just how do you get to this operating leverage algorithm. Is that around what you're expecting, just absolute expenses to grow given your underlying base of good fee growth in there?
Speaker #5: So just coming back on expenses in an absolute sense, with 4% year-over-year growth expected in the first quarter. And I know everyone's just thinking about, just, how do you get to this operating leverage algorithm.
Speaker #5: Is that around what you're expecting just absolute expenses to grow, given your underlying base of good fee growth in—
Speaker #5: there? Well, I think what
Brian Moynihan: Well, I think what we're trying to convey is, and we've said this over the course of the past several years, ours is an organic growth company. We're investing for growth all the time. And when we perform the way that we believe we can, we're going to create operating leverage every year. That's what our North Star is in terms of the financial model. So we've guided you towards NII up 5% to 7% this year. We've said in the first quarter, we believe the first quarter will be up 4% or so. We've said that we expect the operating leverage to be a couple hundred basis points. So that should allow you to work backwards into the expense side of the equation, especially since we've given Q1 essentially.
Alastair Borthwick: Well, I think what we're trying to convey is, and we've said this over the course of the past several years, ours is an organic growth company. We're investing for growth all the time. And when we perform the way that we believe we can, we're going to create operating leverage every year. That's what our North Star is in terms of the financial model. So we've guided you towards NII up 5% to 7% this year. We've said in the first quarter, we believe the first quarter will be up 4% or so. We've said that we expect the operating leverage to be a couple hundred basis points. So that should allow you to work backwards into the expense side of the equation, especially since we've given Q1 essentially.
Speaker #4: What we're trying to convey is, and we've said this over the course of the past several years, ours is an organic growth company. We're investing for growth all the time.
Speaker #4: And when we perform the way that we believe we can, we're going to create operating leverage every year. That's what our North Star is, in terms of the financial model.
Speaker #4: So, we've guided you towards NII up 5% to 7% this year. We've said, in the first quarter, we believe the first quarter will be up 4% or so.
Speaker #4: We've said that we expect the operating leverage to be a couple hundred basis points. So that should allow you to work backwards into the expense side of the equation.
Speaker #4: Especially since we’ve given Q1, essentially. And then I think it will just depend on your revenue assumptions regarding assets under management fees, markets, and investment banking, because those will be the big drivers.
Brian Moynihan: And then I think it will just depend on your revenue assumptions regarding Assets Under Management fees, markets, and investment banking because those will be the big drivers. And yes, we remain constructive on all three of those.
And then I think it will just depend on your revenue assumptions regarding Assets Under Management fees, markets, and investment banking because those will be the big drivers. And yes, we remain constructive on all three of those.
Speaker #4: And yes, we remain constructive on all three of those.
Speaker #5: Okay, got it. And then, as you think about your—when you talked about the Investor Day, you talked about a 200- or 300-basis-point range.
Alastair Borthwick: Okay. Got it. And then so as you think about your, when you talked about the Investor Day, you talked about a 200 or 300 basis point range. So obviously, each year is going to be different things, but you've got, with a strong base of NII growth and fee growth, and we're on the 200 side. What are the things you could do to kind of longer-term expand that and potentially get back to get up to the 300 side of that 200, 300 range that you had given us in November? Thanks.
Ken Usdin: Okay. Got it. And then so as you think about your, when you talked about the Investor Day, you talked about a 200 or 300 basis point range. So obviously, each year is going to be different things, but you've got, with a strong base of NII growth and fee growth, and we're on the 200 side. What are the things you could do to kind of longer-term expand that and potentially get back to get up to the 300 side of that 200, 300 range that you had given us in November? Thanks.
Speaker #5: So obviously, one each year is going to be different things, but you’ve got—with a strong base of NII growth and fee growth—and we’re on the 200 side.
Speaker #5: What are the things you could do to, kind of longer term, expand that and potentially get back to, get up to the 300 side of that 200, 300 range that you had given us in November?
Speaker #5: Thanks.
Speaker #4: Well, I think one of the things we've talked about when we went back to Investor Day—and this gets back to driving return on tangible common equity over time—you think about the fact that we've just gone from 13% to 14% last quarter, the prior quarter we were at 15%.
Brian Moynihan: Well, I think one of the things we've talked about when we went back to Investor Day, and this gets back to driving Return on Tangible Common Equity over time. You think about the fact that we've just gone from 13% to 14% last quarter. Prior quarter, we were at 15%. We said we're going to get in that 16% to 18%. If you think about the organic growth opportunity we have around deposits and loans, and then you add the fixed-rate asset repricing that drops to the bottom line, and then you combine it with the fee growth that we've talked about, when we manage expense carefully, as we have done this year and headcount flat, sort of the core expense minus BC, E, and FA incentive comp closer to 2% type growth, then you'd look at something that gets pretty interesting over time.
Alastair Borthwick: Well, I think one of the things we've talked about when we went back to Investor Day, and this gets back to driving Return on Tangible Common Equity over time. You think about the fact that we've just gone from 13% to 14% last quarter. Prior quarter, we were at 15%. We said we're going to get in that 16% to 18%. If you think about the organic growth opportunity we have around deposits and loans, and then you add the fixed-rate asset repricing that drops to the bottom line, and then you combine it with the fee growth that we've talked about, when we manage expense carefully, as we have done this year and headcount flat, sort of the core expense minus BC, E, and FA incentive comp closer to 2% type growth, then you'd look at something that gets pretty interesting over time.
Speaker #4: We've said we're going to get in that 16% to 18%. If you think about the organic growth opportunity we have around deposits and loans, and then you add the fixed-rate asset repricing that drops to the bottom line, and then you combine it with the fee growth that we've talked about, when we manage expense carefully, as we have done this year and headcount flat—sort of the core expense minus BC&E and FA incentive comp, closer to 2% type growth—then you'd look at something that gets pretty interesting over time.
Speaker #4: So that's what we're trying to drive over a period of time. And you're right, it won't always show up every year where it's exactly the same.
Brian Moynihan: So that's what we're trying to drive over a period of time. You're right, it won't always show up every year where it's exactly the same. What we're trying to do, most importantly, drive organic growth, keep our expense discipline. That's it.
So that's what we're trying to drive over a period of time. You're right, it won't always show up every year where it's exactly the same. What we're trying to do, most importantly, drive organic growth, keep our expense discipline. That's it.
Speaker #4: But what we're trying to do, most importantly, is drive organic growth and keep our expense discipline. That's it.
Speaker #1: Ken, the number one thing is to continue to let the headcount work the headcount through operational excellence and applications of new technologies, including AI that we gave you some sense for.
Brian Moynihan: Ken, the number one thing is to continue to let the headcount work the headcount through operational excellence and applications of new technologies, including AI that we gave you some sense for. So as we told you at Investor Day, today's activity in Erica and our consumer business alone is worth thousands of teammates that we don't have to have to do the great work we do for the customers. So we've applied digital, and that's why you put the pieces in the deck that you can see in pages 21 and beyond. We applied the digital capabilities, now AI capabilities. And you saw during the year the headcount was basically flat. Well, we added more people in the field facing off to clients and generating new client flows.
Brian Moynihan: Ken, the number one thing is to continue to let the headcount work the headcount through operational excellence and applications of new technologies, including AI that we gave you some sense for. So as we told you at Investor Day, today's activity in Erica and our consumer business alone is worth thousands of teammates that we don't have to have to do the great work we do for the customers. So we've applied digital, and that's why you put the pieces in the deck that you can see in pages 21 and beyond. We applied the digital capabilities, now AI capabilities. And you saw during the year the headcount was basically flat. Well, we added more people in the field facing off to clients and generating new client flows.
Speaker #1: So, as we told you, Investor Day, today's activity in Erica and our consumer business alone is worth thousands of teammates that we don't have to have to do the great work we do for the customers.
Speaker #1: So, we've applied digital, and that's why you put the pieces in the deck that you could see in the pages—21 and beyond. We applied digital capabilities, now AI capabilities, and you saw during the year the headcount was basically flat.
Speaker #1: What we added more people in the field facing off to clients and generating new client flows, and that's why when Alastair talked about the middle market business, particularly in the private bank business, why we're seeing a strong growth there.
Brian Moynihan: That's why when Alastair talked about the middle market business, particularly the private bank business, why we're seeing strong growth there. So it's going to be about bringing the numbers of people down over time, and we expect the headcount to come down during this year. Each month we get to maintain neutral headcount, we have to hire at a 7, 7.5% turnover rate. You got to think it's higher than 1,000-plus people. So we can just make decisions not to hire and let the headcount drift down. The team's done a good job of it. We ended the year basically flat. We absorbed, as Alastair said, 2,000 very talented teammates from colleges in July. By the end of the year, we were down to 2,000 people and ended up back net neutral. So that's the way you're going to get there.
That's why when Alastair talked about the middle market business, particularly the private bank business, why we're seeing strong growth there. So it's going to be about bringing the numbers of people down over time, and we expect the headcount to come down during this year. Each month we get to maintain neutral headcount, we have to hire at a 7, 7.5% turnover rate. You got to think it's higher than 1,000-plus people. So we can just make decisions not to hire and let the headcount drift down. The team's done a good job of it. We ended the year basically flat. We absorbed, as Alastair said, 2,000 very talented teammates from colleges in July. By the end of the year, we were down to 2,000 people and ended up back net neutral. So that's the way you're going to get there.
Speaker #1: So, it's going to be about bringing the numbers of people down over time, and we expect the headcount to come down during this year. Each month, to maintain neutral headcount, we have to hire at a 7 to 7.5% turnover rate.
Speaker #1: You've got to think it's higher than 1,000-plus people, so we can just make decisions not to hire and let the headcount drift down. The team's done a good job of it.
Speaker #1: We ended the year basically flat, and we absorbed, as Alastair said, 2,000 very talented teammates from colleges in July, and by the end of the year, we were down 2,000 people and ended up back net neutral.
Speaker #1: So that's the way you're going to get there. If you look at the expense load, it comes from people, and it comes from the benefits and the compensation, and it ultimately comes from the buildings and computer systems to allow them to do the great job for clients.
Brian Moynihan: If you look at the expense load, it comes from people, and it comes from the benefits and the compensation, and it ultimately comes from the buildings and computer systems to allow them to do the great job for clients. So that's what we're working on.
If you look at the expense load, it comes from people, and it comes from the benefits and the compensation, and it ultimately comes from the buildings and computer systems to allow them to do the great job for clients. So that's what we're working on.
Speaker #1: So that's what we're working
Speaker #1: So that's what we're working on. Okay, guys.
Alastair Borthwick: Okay, guys. Thanks a lot.
Ken Usdin: Okay, guys. Thanks a lot.
Speaker #5: Thanks. Thanks a
Speaker #5: lot. Thank
Operator: Thank you. We'll now move on to Mike Mayo with Wells Fargo Securities. Your line is now open.
Operator: Thank you. We'll now move on to Mike Mayo with Wells Fargo Securities. Your line is now open.
Speaker #2: You. We'll now move on to Mike Mayo with Wells Fargo Securities. Your line is now open.
Speaker #6: Hi. If you could just give more of an update on technology—what do you expect your spend to be this year versus last year, your spend on AI, and then slide 21.
Mike Mayo: Hi. If you could just give more of an update on technology, what do you expect your spend to be this year versus last year, your spend on AI, and then slide 21. But again, I think everybody appreciates the data you provide on your digital engagement, which is more than others. But no good deed goes unpunished. I'm just looking at slide 21, and your interactions in consumer with Erica took a dip down in the last year, even while your users go up. So if you can talk about spend, investments, and results from tech, and especially AI. Thank you.
Mike Mayo: Hi. If you could just give more of an update on technology, what do you expect your spend to be this year versus last year, your spend on AI, and then slide 21. But again, I think everybody appreciates the data you provide on your digital engagement, which is more than others. But no good deed goes unpunished. I'm just looking at slide 21, and your interactions in consumer with Erica took a dip down in the last year, even while your users go up. So if you can talk about spend, investments, and results from tech, and especially AI. Thank you.
Speaker #6: But again, I think everybody appreciates the data you provide on your digital engagement, which is more than others. But no good deed goes unpunished.
Speaker #6: I'm just looking at slide 21, and your interactions in consumer with Erica took a dip down in the last year, even while your users go up.
Speaker #6: So, if you can talk about the spend, investments, and results from tech and especially AI. Thank you.
Speaker #6: you. Yes.
Brian Moynihan: Yeah. So Mike, we'll be up on initiatives this year, 5%, 6%, 7%, I think, types of numbers. Total spending, $13 billion plus $4 billion plus in initiatives. That's all new code. And in that spending, remember, also we get the advantage of all the other people. So for example, under the 365 Copilot rollout, which is now out across a total of 200,000 teammates and using it and learning from it, we expect to get good leverage of that. So that's an increase in the run rate year over year. So the technology is increasing. The technology number is sizable, and the team does a good job of implementing change every weekend, frankly, except for one a year. So we feel good about that. One of the things that you'll note is you use these technologies in combination.
Brian Moynihan: Yeah. So Mike, we'll be up on initiatives this year, 5%, 6%, 7%, I think, types of numbers. Total spending, $13 billion plus $4 billion plus in initiatives. That's all new code. And in that spending, remember, also we get the advantage of all the other people. So for example, under the 365 Copilot rollout, which is now out across a total of 200,000 teammates and using it and learning from it, we expect to get good leverage of that. So that's an increase in the run rate year over year. So the technology is increasing. The technology number is sizable, and the team does a good job of implementing change every weekend, frankly, except for one a year. So we feel good about that. One of the things that you'll note is you use these technologies in combination.
Speaker #1: So Mike, we'll be up on initiatives this year—five, six, seven percent, I think, types of numbers. Total spending: $13 billion, plus $4 billion-plus in initiatives.
Speaker #1: That's all new code. And in that spending, remember also we get the advantage of all the other people. So, for example, under the 365 Copilot rollout, which is now out across a total of 200,000 teammates and using it and learning from it, we expect to get good leverage of that.
Speaker #1: So that's an increase in the run rate year over year. So that’s—the technology is increasing. The technology number is sizable, and the team does a good job of implementing change every weekend, frankly, except for one a year.
Speaker #1: So, we feel good about that. One of the things that you'll note is your use of these technologies in combination. So your point on Erica—I asked the same question, Mike, because it's pretty straightforward.
Brian Moynihan: So your point on Erica, I asked the same question, Mike, because it's pretty straightforward. Why would the interactions with Erica go down? The reality of that is what we don't show you is the amount of alerts that we deliver. So you can set up alerts, which then has slowed down the need for Erica because the alerts are up to, I think, billions a quarter that are telling you when your balance is low and things like that to avoid you going and asking the question. So that combination of things is growing very quickly.
So your point on Erica, I asked the same question, Mike, because it's pretty straightforward. Why would the interactions with Erica go down? The reality of that is what we don't show you is the amount of alerts that we deliver. So you can set up alerts, which then has slowed down the need for Erica because the alerts are up to, I think, billions a quarter that are telling you when your balance is low and things like that to avoid you going and asking the question. So that combination of things is growing very quickly.
Speaker #1: Why would the interactions with Erica go down? The reality of that is, well, we don't show you the amount of alerts that we deliver.
Speaker #1: So you can set up alerts, which then has slowed down the need for Erica because the alerts are up to, I think, billions a quarter that are telling you when your balance is low and things like that to avoid you going in and asking the question.
Speaker #1: So that combination of things is growing very quickly. So again, what you're always trying to do is look at a process from a customer to you and figure out how you can get that customer the best client, the best customer experience at the lowest cost, so you can plow that back into the low-fee structures, which help us grow the business for, as we said, for seven straight years in checking accounts.
Brian Moynihan: So again, what you always try to do is look at a process from a customer to you and figure out how you can get that customer the best customer experience at the lowest cost, so you can plow that back into the low-fee structures, which help us grow the business for, as we said, for seven straight years and checking accounts. So there's a technical explanation on the Erica that is a little bit different. But thematically, you can see just the digital enablement just continues to grow and continues to help us leverage a franchise. And frankly, consumers are now pushing through 50% profit margin, and it'll continue to go up.
So again, what you always try to do is look at a process from a customer to you and figure out how you can get that customer the best customer experience at the lowest cost, so you can plow that back into the low-fee structures, which help us grow the business for, as we said, for seven straight years and checking accounts. So there's a technical explanation on the Erica that is a little bit different. But thematically, you can see just the digital enablement just continues to grow and continues to help us leverage a franchise. And frankly, consumers are now pushing through 50% profit margin, and it'll continue to go up.
Speaker #1: So, there's a technical explanation on the Erica that is a little bit different, but thematically, you can see just the digital enablement just continues to grow and continues to help us leverage a franchise. And, frankly, consumers are now pushing through 50% profit margin, and it'll continue to go up.
Speaker #6: Okay. And specifically on AI investments, like how much do you spend on that or the number of people, if you could dimension that, and kind of what kind of outcomes you're looking for, especially as we sit here at the start of the year?
Mike Mayo: Okay. Specifically on AI investments, how much do you spend on that or the number of people, if you could dimension that and kind of what kind of outcomes you're looking for, especially as we sit here at the start of the year?
Mike Mayo: Okay. Specifically on AI investments, how much do you spend on that or the number of people, if you could dimension that and kind of what kind of outcomes you're looking for, especially as we sit here at the start of the year?
Speaker #1: Yeah. Well, we're looking for—yeah, we have to give you an example. We have 18,000 people on the company's payroll through code, and using AI techniques, we've taken 30% out of the coding technique—the coding part of the stream of introducing a new product or service or change.
Brian Moynihan: Yeah. Well, we're looking for we have to give you an example. We have 18,000 people on the company's payroll through code. And using the AI techniques, we've taken 30% out of the coding part of the stream of introducing a new product, service, or change. That saves us about 2,000 people. So that's how we're applying it. That was this year's statistic, meaning 25%. Next year, we should get more out of it as we figure out how to apply it across. So there's 20 different projects going on in the company. I don't know off the top of my head the total expenditure, but it's several hundred million dollars. And importantly, we're going through the company to generate more ideas how to apply AI. And I use an example. Our audit team has built a capability.
Brian Moynihan: Yeah. Well, we're looking for we have to give you an example. We have 18,000 people on the company's payroll through code. And using the AI techniques, we've taken 30% out of the coding part of the stream of introducing a new product, service, or change. That saves us about 2,000 people. So that's how we're applying it. That was this year's statistic, meaning 25%. Next year, we should get more out of it as we figure out how to apply it across. So there's 20 different projects going on in the company. I don't know off the top of my head the total expenditure, but it's several hundred million dollars. And importantly, we're going through the company to generate more ideas how to apply AI. And I use an example. Our audit team has built a capability.
Speaker #1: That saves us about 2,000 people. So that's how we're applying it. That was this year's statistic, meaning '25. Next year, we should get more out of it as we figure out how to apply it across.
Speaker #1: So, there's 20 different projects going on in the company. I don't know off the top of my head the total expenditure, but it's several hundred million dollars.
Speaker #1: And importantly, we're going through the company to generate more ideas on how to apply AI. I use an example: our audit team has built a capability—they think a series of prompts around doing audits and such will allow them to shape the headcount back down that they had to grow during the regulatory onslaught over the last few years.
Brian Moynihan: They think a series of prompts around doing audits and stuff to allow them to shape the headcount back down that they had to grow during the regulatory onslaught over the last few years. They're going to be able to bring that down. With AI, they'll be able to bring it down further. They've laid out plans to do that. So that's going on everywhere. But that was organic from there, starting to use the Copilot capabilities and then learning how to do the prompts and then using it to set up audit practices. You're seeing it everywhere in the company. So there's, I don't know, 15, 20 projects going on, and there'll be a laundry list of much bigger size next as we go through the company now or generating ideas now that people are using and getting used to how to use it.
They think a series of prompts around doing audits and stuff to allow them to shape the headcount back down that they had to grow during the regulatory onslaught over the last few years. They're going to be able to bring that down. With AI, they'll be able to bring it down further. They've laid out plans to do that. So that's going on everywhere. But that was organic from there, starting to use the Copilot capabilities and then learning how to do the prompts and then using it to set up audit practices. You're seeing it everywhere in the company. So there's, I don't know, 15, 20 projects going on, and there'll be a laundry list of much bigger size next as we go through the company now or generating ideas now that people are using and getting used to how to use it.
Speaker #1: They're going to be able to bring that down, and with AI, they'll be able to bring it down further. And they've laid out plans to do that.
Speaker #1: And so that's going on everywhere. But that was organic from there—starting to use the Copilot capabilities, and then learning how to do the prompts, and then using it to set up audit practices.
Speaker #1: So you're seeing it everywhere in the company. So there's, I don't know, 15, 20 projects going on, and there'll be a laundry list of much bigger size as we go through the company now, or generating ideas.
Speaker #1: Now that people are using it and getting used to how to use it,
Speaker #1: it. All right.
Mike Mayo: All right. Thank you.
Mike Mayo: All right. Thank you.
Speaker #6: Thank you.
Speaker #2: Thank you. We'll now move on to John McDonald with Truist Securities. Your line is now open.
Operator: Thank you. We'll now move on to John McDonald with Truist Securities. Your line is now open.
Operator: Thank you. We'll now move on to John McDonald with Truist Securities. Your line is now open.
Speaker #1: Thank you. Good morning. One of the other levers for the ROTCE ambitions that you guys have talked about is the denominator with the CET1 ratio.
John McDonald: Thank you. Good morning. One of the other levers for the ROTCE ambitions that you guys have talked about is the denominator with the CET1 ratio. Could you talk a little bit, Alastair or Brian, about the timeline for kind of where you are today with 11.4 to the target you laid out, which I think was around mid-10s?
John McDonald: Thank you. Good morning. One of the other levers for the ROTCE ambitions that you guys have talked about is the denominator with the CET1 ratio. Could you talk a little bit, Alastair or Brian, about the timeline for kind of where you are today with 11.4 to the target you laid out, which I think was around mid-10s?
Speaker #1: Could you talk a little bit, Alastair or Brian, about the timeline for kind of where you are today with $11.4 to the target you laid out, which I think was around—
Speaker #1: mid-10s? Yeah.
Brian Moynihan: Yeah. I think, John, if you think about that, as you well know and your colleagues will know, we're still waiting for the rules to get finalized, and there are multifaceted rules set that we got to make sure how it applies. But our goal, we peeled from 11.6 to 11.40. And you're going to keep peeling that number down through expansion of our markets, business expansion of lending and other uses of RWA. And we bought back a little more stock than dividends than we earned. And so we'll keep working that down. But the idea is not to take the $200 billion-ish nominal and reduce that a lot. The idea is to use the excess to grow the balance sheet and let that work down.
Brian Moynihan: Yeah. I think, John, if you think about that, as you well know and your colleagues will know, we're still waiting for the rules to get finalized, and there are multifaceted rules set that we got to make sure how it applies. But our goal, we peeled from 11.6 to 11.40. And you're going to keep peeling that number down through expansion of our markets, business expansion of lending and other uses of RWA. And we bought back a little more stock than dividends than we earned. And so we'll keep working that down. But the idea is not to take the $200 billion-ish nominal and reduce that a lot. The idea is to use the excess to grow the balance sheet and let that work down.
Speaker #3: I think, John, if you think about that, we're still, as you well know—and your colleagues will know—we're still waiting for the rules to get finalized, and they're a multifaceted rule set that we've got to make sure how it applies.
Speaker #3: But our goal—we peeled from 11.6 to 11.40, and you're going to keep peeling that number down through expansion of our markets business, expansion of lending, and other uses of RWA.
Speaker #3: And so, we bought back a little more stock than dividends, and we earned. And so we'll keep working that down. But the idea is not to take the $200 billion-ish nominal and reduce that a lot.
Speaker #3: The idea is to use the excess to grow the balance sheet and let that work down. As we see the final rules, the constraint may be sort of tangible common equity ratio stuff or 6/20.
Brian Moynihan: As we see the final rules, the constraint may be sort of Tangible Common Equity ratio stuff where 620 could be in the mid to high fives or something like that. That might be possible. And so we'll let this all drift down over time. And so just expect us to keep buying back, paying the dividend, increasing it, and buying back the stock. And remember that, as you said, we've drifted down a little bit by growth, but also the accounting change hit it, which we'll repeat. So the next quarter, we'll keep walking it down. Just the idea is as these rules settle in, then maybe we can be more aggressive, but we got to know exactly what we're dealing with.
As we see the final rules, the constraint may be sort of Tangible Common Equity ratio stuff where 620 could be in the mid to high fives or something like that. That might be possible. And so we'll let this all drift down over time. And so just expect us to keep buying back, paying the dividend, increasing it, and buying back the stock. And remember that, as you said, we've drifted down a little bit by growth, but also the accounting change hit it, which we'll repeat. So the next quarter, we'll keep walking it down. Just the idea is as these rules settle in, then maybe we can be more aggressive, but we got to know exactly what we're dealing with.
Speaker #3: Could you be in the mid to high fives or something like that? That might be possible. And if you do, we'll let this all drift down over time.
Speaker #3: And so, just expect us to keep buying back, to paying the dividend, increasing it, and buying back the stock. And remember that, as you said, we've drifted down a little bit by growth, but also the accounting change hit it, which we'll repeat.
Speaker #3: So, the next quarter, we'll keep walking it down. Just—the idea is, as these rules settle in, then maybe we can be more aggressive, but we've got to know—we've got to know exactly what we're dealing with.
Speaker #1: Okay. And then maybe if we pull back just the broader timeline on the ROTCE path, it looks like for 2025, you kind of ended in the low 14s.
John McDonald: Okay. And then maybe if we pull back just the broader timeline on the ROTCE path, it looks like for 2025, you've kind of ended in the 14, low 14s. What's the ambition to get to the lower end of the 16 and then the 18 over time?
John McDonald: Okay. And then maybe if we pull back just the broader timeline on the ROTCE path, it looks like for 2025, you've kind of ended in the 14, low 14s. What's the ambition to get to the lower end of the 16 and then the 18 over time?
Speaker #1: What's the ambition to get to the lower end of the 16, and then the 18, over time?
Speaker #3: I think we made it clear that you had. And by the eighth quarter to the 12th quarter, you move in the lower part of the range, and then the upper part of the range, given a core economy growing at 2.5%-type numbers.
Brian Moynihan: I think we made it clear that you had by the eighth quarter to the 12th quarter, you move in the lower part of the range, and then the upper part of the range given a core economy growing at 2.5% type of numbers and all the other attributes. So we made that clear. So that's basically eight quarters from including this quarter, obviously, the first quarter of 2026. And then we move into the 16 level, and then we move to the upper end of the range as we move through the third year.
Brian Moynihan: I think we made it clear that you had by the eighth quarter to the 12th quarter, you move in the lower part of the range, and then the upper part of the range given a core economy growing at 2.5% type of numbers and all the other attributes. So we made that clear. So that's basically eight quarters from including this quarter, obviously, the first quarter of 2026. And then we move into the 16 level, and then we move to the upper end of the range as we move through the third year.
Speaker #3: And all the other attributes. So we've made that clear. So that's basically eight quarters, including this quarter—obviously, the first quarter of '26.
Speaker #3: And then we move into the 16 level, and then we move the upper end of the range. As we move through the third year.
Speaker #1: Okay. Thank
John McDonald: Okay. Thank you.
John McDonald: Okay. Thank you.
Speaker #1: you. Thank
Operator: Thank you. We'll now move on to Matt O'Connor with Deutsche Bank. Your line is now open.
Operator: Thank you. We'll now move on to Matt O'Connor with Deutsche Bank. Your line is now open.
Speaker #2: We'll now move on to Matt O'Connor with Deutsche Bank. Your line is now open.
Speaker #2: open. Good
Matt O'Connor: Good morning. I was hoping you could elaborate a bit on your outlook for loan growth and some of the drivers. You've obviously been in loans quite a bit, and just well in excess of the industry, and how sustainable is that, and what are some of the drivers?
Matt O'Connor: Good morning. I was hoping you could elaborate a bit on your outlook for loan growth and some of the drivers. You've obviously been in loans quite a bit, and just well in excess of the industry, and how sustainable is that, and what are some of the drivers?
Speaker #7: Good morning. I was hoping you could elaborate a bit on your outlook for loan growth and some of the drivers. You've obviously been growing loans quite a bit and just well in excess of the industry, and how sustainable is that? And where are some of the drivers?
Speaker #7: Good morning. I was hoping you could elaborate a bit on your outlook for loan growth and some of the drivers. You've obviously been bringing loans quite a bit and just well in excess of the industry, and how sustainable is that, and where are some of the drivers?
Speaker #8: Yep. So embedded in our NII assumption is a loan growth in the mid-single digits, Matt. Obviously, we've had pretty good loan growth this year, kind of $20 billion a quarter or so.
Alastair Borthwick: Yep. So embedded in our NII assumption is a loan growth in the mid-single digits, Matt. Obviously, we've had pretty good loan growth this year, kind of 20 billion a quarter or so. A decent amount of that has been on the commercial side. And we highlighted that in our financials and in our commentary earlier. So we're still seeing growth in each of the consumer categories. And that feels like it's in a position where it's likely to continue to grow from here. So we feel pretty good about those two. We don't see any reason that it would be a whole lot lower necessarily than it was last year, but last year was a good loan year, no question. So that's why we're saying mid-single digits. I think it'll still be led by commercial, but you'll see the consumer categories picking up.
Alastair Borthwick: Yep. So embedded in our NII assumption is a loan growth in the mid-single digits, Matt. Obviously, we've had pretty good loan growth this year, kind of 20 billion a quarter or so. A decent amount of that has been on the commercial side. And we highlighted that in our financials and in our commentary earlier. So we're still seeing growth in each of the consumer categories. And that feels like it's in a position where it's likely to continue to grow from here. So we feel pretty good about those two. We don't see any reason that it would be a whole lot lower necessarily than it was last year, but last year was a good loan year, no question. So that's why we're saying mid-single digits. I think it'll still be led by commercial, but you'll see the consumer categories picking up.
Speaker #8: A decent amount of that has been on the commercial side, and we highlighted that in our financials and in our commentary earlier. So we're still seeing growth in each of the consumer categories.
Speaker #8: And that feels like it's in a position where it's likely to continue to grow from here. So we feel pretty good about those two; we don't see any reason that it would be a whole lot lower, necessarily, than it was last year. But last year was a good loan year, no question.
Speaker #8: So that's why we're saying mid-single digits. I think it'll still be led by Commercial, but you'll see the consumer categories picking up.
Speaker #8: up. Okay.
Matt O'Connor: Okay. And then I guess specifically in credit card, the spending was good of 6% year over year, but the balances were up just a couple percent. Fees were down. I know at Investor Day, you talked about accelerating the growth there. Maybe just update us on kind of the initiatives there and the timing. Thank you.
Matt O'Connor: Okay. And then I guess specifically in credit card, the spending was good of 6% year over year, but the balances were up just a couple percent. Fees were down. I know at Investor Day, you talked about accelerating the growth there. Maybe just update us on kind of the initiatives there and the timing. Thank you.
Speaker #7: And then I guess specifically in credit cards, the spending was good, up 6% year-over-year, and for the balances, we're up just a couple of percent.
Speaker #7: Fees were down. I know at Investor Day you talked about accelerating the growth there. Maybe just update us on the kind of initiatives there and the timing.
Speaker #7: Thank
Speaker #8: Yeah, so I'm probably very clear about this. At Investor Day, it's our intention to continue to accelerate the growth in card. I think we've seen that in the last three or four quarters.
Alastair Borthwick: Yeah. So I'll probably be very clear about this at Investor Day. It's our intention to continue to accelerate the growth in card. I think we've seen that in the last three or four quarters. It's picked up sequentially, quarter after quarter. And if you were to look at what the team is doing right now, they're investing a little more for future growth. So you can see that in some of the things we're doing around the World Cup this year. You can see it in some of the things we're doing around more rewards in November. You can see it in our rewards program with our co-brand partners. And you could see it in the June cashback rewards offering. So we've got a lot of things going on right now that we're excited about.
Alastair Borthwick: Yeah. So I'll probably be very clear about this at Investor Day. It's our intention to continue to accelerate the growth in card. I think we've seen that in the last three or four quarters. It's picked up sequentially, quarter after quarter. And if you were to look at what the team is doing right now, they're investing a little more for future growth. So you can see that in some of the things we're doing around the World Cup this year. You can see it in some of the things we're doing around more rewards in November. You can see it in our rewards program with our co-brand partners. And you could see it in the June cashback rewards offering. So we've got a lot of things going on right now that we're excited about.
Speaker #8: It's picked up sequentially, quarter after quarter. And if you were to look at what the team is doing right now, they're investing a little more for future growth.
Speaker #8: So, you can see that in some of the things we're doing around the World Cup this year. You can see it in some of the things we're doing around more rewards in November.
Speaker #8: You can see it in our rewards program with our co-brand partners, and you could see it in the June cashback rewards offering. So, we’ve got a lot of things going on right now that we’re excited about.
Speaker #8: We know what we've committed in terms of higher credit card growth, and we feel like we're on the right path.
Alastair Borthwick: We know what we've committed in terms of higher credit card growth, and we feel like we're on the right path.
We know what we've committed in terms of higher credit card growth, and we feel like we're on the right path.
Speaker #7: Okay. Thank
Matt O'Connor: Okay. Thank you.
Matt O'Connor: Okay. Thank you.
Speaker #7: you. Thank you.
Operator: Thank you. We'll now move on to Erika Najarian with UBS. Your line is now open.
Operator: Thank you. We'll now move on to Erika Najarian with UBS. Your line is now open.
Speaker #2: We'll now move on to Erica Najarian with UBS. Your line is now open.
Speaker #2: open.
Speaker #9: Hi. Good morning. I
Erika Najarian: Hi. Good morning. I just need to re-ask this question, Brian and Alastair, because as I speak with investors, I think the communication on efficiency and expenses is a big part of what's holding down the stock. So just to clarify in terms of what Betsy was asking, she was asking, well, given the restatement and thereby higher fees, shouldn't you adjust the efficiency ratio range to 54% to 58% because you shouldn't get credit for the restatement, right? So that's why she was asking that. And I think what Ken was asking was everything that Alastair mentioned, the curve, the growth, capital markets, it's hitting this year, right? And so you're on the low side of the 200 basis points of the 200 to 300. And so I guess the question here is, what should we take away in terms of the expense messaging?
Erika Najarian: Hi. Good morning. I just need to re-ask this question, Brian and Alastair, because as I speak with investors, I think the communication on efficiency and expenses is a big part of what's holding down the stock. So just to clarify in terms of what Betsy was asking, she was asking, well, given the restatement and thereby higher fees, shouldn't you adjust the efficiency ratio range to 54% to 58% because you shouldn't get credit for the restatement, right? So that's why she was asking that. And I think what Ken was asking was everything that Alastair mentioned, the curve, the growth, capital markets, it's hitting this year, right? And so you're on the low side of the 200 basis points of the 200 to 300. And so I guess the question here is, what should we take away in terms of the expense messaging?
Speaker #9: just need to re-ask this question. Brian and Alastair, because as I speak with investors, I think the communication on efficiency and expenses is a big part of what's holding down the stock.
Speaker #9: So just to clarify, in terms of what Betsy was asking—she was asking, well, given the restatement and thereby higher fees, shouldn't you adjust the efficiency ratio range to 54 to 58%?
Speaker #9: Because you shouldn't get credit for the restatement, right? So that's why she was asking that. And I think what Ken was asking was, everything that Alastair mentioned—the curve, the growth, capital markets—it's hitting this year, right?
Speaker #9: And so you're on the low side of the 200 basis points, of the 200 to 300. And so I guess the question here is, what should we take away in terms of the expense messaging?
Speaker #9: Is it—that's sort of what Brian alluded to—that the headcount just needs time to work through, and then you'll hit 250 to 300, and we just need to be patient?
Erika Najarian: Is it sort of what Brian alluded to, that the headcount just needs time to work through, and then you'll hit 250 to 300, and we just need to be patient? Is there more investment spend, like you told Mike Mayo that you wanted to front-load in a great revenue year? What exactly do you want your investors to take away in terms of how you're viewing the expense growth relative to the revenue side? Because, for example, for your closest peer, JPMorgan, they grow expenses to $105 billion. No one really blinks, right, because of the revenue side. So what is the underlying message for operating leverage for Bank of America over this year and over the three years that is underpinning that 16% to 18%?
Is it sort of what Brian alluded to, that the headcount just needs time to work through, and then you'll hit 250 to 300, and we just need to be patient? Is there more investment spend, like you told Mike Mayo that you wanted to front-load in a great revenue year? What exactly do you want your investors to take away in terms of how you're viewing the expense growth relative to the revenue side? Because, for example, for your closest peer, JPMorgan, they grow expenses to $105 billion. No one really blinks, right, because of the revenue side. So what is the underlying message for operating leverage for Bank of America over this year and over the three years that is underpinning that 16% to 18%?
Speaker #9: Is there more investment spend? You told Mike Mayo that you wanted to front-load in a great revenue year. What exactly do you want your investors to take away in terms of how you're viewing the expense growth relative to the revenue side?
Speaker #9: Because, for example, for your closest peer, JPMorgan, they grow expenses to $105 billion. No one really blinks, right, because of the revenue side.
Speaker #9: So, what is the underlying message for operating leverage for Bank of America over this year and over the three years that is underpinning that 16 to 18 percent?
Speaker #3: Let's back up to it. As Alastair said, we are driving these numbers, and they have improved on a recast basis by a couple of hundred basis points, and they'll continue to improve.
Brian Moynihan: Let's back up to it. As Alastair said, we are driving these numbers, and they have improved on a recast basis by a couple hundred basis points, and they'll continue to improve. So the range will move down to lower numbers. When we get into the range, we'll reset the range. But I think we're focused on the wrong thing. The question is, what are you doing now as opposed to what you're saying you're going to do? We have a tendency to actually deliver as opposed to talk about what we do in the future. That's what we focus on. So what have we done? The efficiency ratio came down a couple hundred basis points on an apples-to-apples basis. With the parts of the revenue stream that are least efficient, the wealth management revenue is growing very strong in the capital markets revenue.
Brian Moynihan: Let's back up to it. As Alastair said, we are driving these numbers, and they have improved on a recast basis by a couple hundred basis points, and they'll continue to improve. So the range will move down to lower numbers. When we get into the range, we'll reset the range. But I think we're focused on the wrong thing. The question is, what are you doing now as opposed to what you're saying you're going to do? We have a tendency to actually deliver as opposed to talk about what we do in the future. That's what we focus on. So what have we done? The efficiency ratio came down a couple hundred basis points on an apples-to-apples basis. With the parts of the revenue stream that are least efficient, the wealth management revenue is growing very strong in the capital markets revenue.
Speaker #3: And so the range will move down to lower numbers, and when we get into the range, we'll reset the range. But I think we're focused on the wrong thing.
Speaker #3: The question is, what are you doing now as opposed to what you're saying you're going to do? We have a tendency to actually deliver, as opposed to just talk about what we'll do in the future.
Speaker #3: And that's what we focus on. So, what have we done? The efficiency ratio came down a couple of hundred basis points on an apples-to-apples basis.
Speaker #3: With the parts of the revenue stream that are least efficient, the wealth management revenue is growing very strong in the capital markets revenue. So, when the consumer bank revenue grows and the global banking revenue grows at the efficiency ratio they’re at, they produce a lot more pop than wealth management, which has, obviously, the financial advisory tariffs.
Brian Moynihan: So when the consumer bank revenue grows and the global banking revenue grows at the efficiency ratio they're at, they produce a lot more pop than wealth management, which has obviously the financial advisory fees. So we have to also think of where the revenue growth is coming from to see the improvement. But we moved to 200 basis points. We've moved it in past years when rates stabilized, we'll move it into the 50s. As you get to lower efficiency ratio, the operating leverage can be narrow, and you still get the bigger earnings pop. One thing that we've been telling you and that we want to make sure people understand is our goal is to keep driving all the extra NII to the bottom line, meaning the difference between sort of the core and the repricing, because we owe that to drive the returns up.
So when the consumer bank revenue grows and the global banking revenue grows at the efficiency ratio they're at, they produce a lot more pop than wealth management, which has obviously the financial advisory fees. So we have to also think of where the revenue growth is coming from to see the improvement. But we moved to 200 basis points. We've moved it in past years when rates stabilized, we'll move it into the 50s. As you get to lower efficiency ratio, the operating leverage can be narrow, and you still get the bigger earnings pop. One thing that we've been telling you and that we want to make sure people understand is our goal is to keep driving all the extra NII to the bottom line, meaning the difference between sort of the core and the repricing, because we owe that to drive the returns up.
Speaker #3: So you have to also think of where the revenue growth is coming from to see the improvement. But we moved the 200 basis points.
Speaker #3: We moved it in past years when rates stabilized. We'll move it into the 50s. As you get to a lower efficiency ratio, the operating leverage can be narrow and you still get the bigger earnings pop.
Speaker #3: One thing that we've been telling you, and that we want to make sure people understand, is our goal is to keep driving all the extra NII to the bottom line—meaning the difference between sort of the core and the repricing—because we owe that to drive the returns up.
Speaker #3: And the rest of it will have more normalized attributes to it. So we've driven the efficiency down. We expect to continue to drive it down.
Brian Moynihan: And the rest of it will have more normalized attributes to it. So we've driven the efficiency down. We expect to continue to drive it down. It is all going to be due to headcount because that's 60-plus% of our expenses. We've absorbed inflation and everything while we're doing that. The expense growth, Alastair just told you, first quarter, 4% with expense increases and base increases and third-party inflation coming through, etc. So we're very efficient in each of our businesses, and we're very efficient relatively to our peers, and that will continue to improve. And I don't know how to do it.
And the rest of it will have more normalized attributes to it. So we've driven the efficiency down. We expect to continue to drive it down. It is all going to be due to headcount because that's 60-plus% of our expenses. We've absorbed inflation and everything while we're doing that. The expense growth, Alastair just told you, first quarter, 4% with expense increases and base increases and third-party inflation coming through, etc. So we're very efficient in each of our businesses, and we're very efficient relatively to our peers, and that will continue to improve. And I don't know how to do it.
Speaker #3: It is all going to be due to headcount because that's 60-plus percent of our expenses. We've absorbed inflation and everything. While we're doing that, the expense growth—Alastair just told you: first quarter, 4% with expense increases and base increases and third-party inflation coming through, etc.
Speaker #3: So, we're very efficient in each of our businesses. And we're very efficient relative to our peers. And that will continue to improve. And I don't know how to do it.
Speaker #3: One of the things, when I talk to investors—and I actually talk to people on a lot of stock every quarter—their view is to stay away from, or focus people on, the operating leverage in the company. Because at the end of the day, we've got to grow expenses at a slower rate than revenue—which we have been doing—for operating leverage. Excuse me, grow revenue at a faster rate than expenses for operating leverage.
Brian Moynihan: One of the things, when I talk to investors that I actually talk to people on a lot of stock every quarter, their view is stay away from, focus people on the operating leverage in the company because, at the end of the day, we've got to grow expenses at a faster rate, which we have been doing at a slower rate than revenue, excuse me, grow revenue at a faster rate than expenses for operating leverage. We produced that for our last five quarters. We had five years of it leading up to the pandemic. You should expect us to get back on a streak.
One of the things, when I talk to investors that I actually talk to people on a lot of stock every quarter, their view is stay away from, focus people on the operating leverage in the company because, at the end of the day, we've got to grow expenses at a faster rate, which we have been doing at a slower rate than revenue, excuse me, grow revenue at a faster rate than expenses for operating leverage. We produced that for our last five quarters. We had five years of it leading up to the pandemic. You should expect us to get back on a streak.
Speaker #3: We produced that for our last five quarters. We had five years of it leading up to the pandemic. You should expect us to get back on a streak.
Speaker #3: But the reason why they want us to focus on that—the people that own the stock—is to get away from the nominal dollar debate every quarter and get more focused on how the team's doing a great job of driving the revenue and driving the expense.
Brian Moynihan: But the reason why they want us to focus on that, the people that own the stock, is to get away from the nominal dollar debate every quarter and get more focused on how the team's doing a great job of driving the revenue and driving the expense. If the revenue growth slows down because of dynamics outside our company, the expense growth will slow down.
But the reason why they want us to focus on that, the people that own the stock, is to get away from the nominal dollar debate every quarter and get more focused on how the team's doing a great job of driving the revenue and driving the expense. If the revenue growth slows down because of dynamics outside our company, the expense growth will slow down.
Speaker #3: If the revenue growth slows down because of the dynamics outside our company, the expense growth will slow.
Speaker #3: down. Got it.
Erika Najarian: Got it. Okay. Thank you.
Erika Najarian: Got it. Okay. Thank you.
Speaker #9: Okay. Thank
Speaker #9: Okay. Thank you. Thank
Operator: Thank you. We'll now move on to Jim Mitchell with Seaport Global Securities. Your line is open.
Operator: Thank you. We'll now move on to Jim Mitchell with Seaport Global Securities. Your line is open.
Speaker #2: We'll now move on to Jim Mitchell with Seaport Global Securities. Your line is open.
Speaker #10: Hey, good morning. Maybe just a question on deposits. We've seen three rate cuts in September. Can you speak to what you're seeing in terms of deposit pricing?
Lee E. McEntire: Hey, good morning. Maybe just a question on deposits. We've seen three rate cuts in September. Can you speak to what you're seeing in terms of deposit pricing, whether betas are worse, better, or worse than expected, and just also what you're seeing with respect to client behavior would just be helpful, too.
Jim Mitchell: Hey, good morning. Maybe just a question on deposits. We've seen three rate cuts in September. Can you speak to what you're seeing in terms of deposit pricing, whether betas are worse, better, or worse than expected, and just also what you're seeing with respect to client behavior would just be helpful, too.
Speaker #10: Whether betas are worse, better, or worse than expected? And just also what you're seeing with respect to client behavior would just be helpful, too.
Speaker #3: Okay. First, with respect to our pricing discipline, really when you talk about pricing, we're most focused on the upper end of the corporate banking, commercial banking, the very large global banking deposit base.
Alastair Borthwick: Okay. First, with respect to our pricing discipline, really when you talk about pricing, we're most focused on the upper end of the corporate banking, commercial banking, very large global banking deposit base where we're passing on rate cuts essentially the moment that they take place and in full. And so that's why you see the beta there obviously quite high. Same thing in the upper end of wealth management. Consumer, you see much less in the way of pricing coming down because we have so much in the way of non-interest-bearing and checking and so much in the way of low-interest-bearing. So we feel good about the team's pricing discipline overall. And you should expect that to continue in Q1, recognizing that the rate cut was late in Q4.
Alastair Borthwick: Okay. First, with respect to our pricing discipline, really when you talk about pricing, we're most focused on the upper end of the corporate banking, commercial banking, very large global banking deposit base where we're passing on rate cuts essentially the moment that they take place and in full. And so that's why you see the beta there obviously quite high. Same thing in the upper end of wealth management. Consumer, you see much less in the way of pricing coming down because we have so much in the way of non-interest-bearing and checking and so much in the way of low-interest-bearing. So we feel good about the team's pricing discipline overall. And you should expect that to continue in Q1, recognizing that the rate cut was late in Q4.
Speaker #3: We're passing on rate cuts essentially the moment that they take place, and in full. And so that's why you see the beta there, obviously, quite high.
Speaker #3: Same thing in the upper end of wealth management. Consumer, you see much less in the way of pricing coming down because we have so much in the way of non-interest-bearing and checking.
Speaker #3: And so, much in the way of low-interest-bearing. So, we feel good about the team's pricing discipline overall in terms, and you should expect that to continue in Q1.
Speaker #3: Recognizing that the rate cut was late in Q4, in terms of growth, I think if you were to look at page seven in the earnings materials, it sort of tells you the picture.
Alastair Borthwick: In terms of growth, I think if you were to look at page seven in the earnings materials, it sort of tells you the picture. In the bottom right, you can see global banking. That's had a very good period of growth. Not sure that sustains at that sort of level, but we've had good growth in global banking. And most importantly, in the top right, consumer has begun to turn and is growing. And that's the most powerful engine for us. Those are the most valuable balances. We've now got three quarters of year-over-year growth. It's poised to grow, poised to accelerate. So that's very important. And wealth management is bottoming here. So we feel good about the mix of deposits changing in our favor this year.
In terms of growth, I think if you were to look at page seven in the earnings materials, it sort of tells you the picture. In the bottom right, you can see global banking. That's had a very good period of growth. Not sure that sustains at that sort of level, but we've had good growth in global banking. And most importantly, in the top right, consumer has begun to turn and is growing. And that's the most powerful engine for us. Those are the most valuable balances. We've now got three quarters of year-over-year growth. It's poised to grow, poised to accelerate. So that's very important. And wealth management is bottoming here. So we feel good about the mix of deposits changing in our favor this year.
Speaker #3: In the bottom right, you can see Global Banking. That’s had a very good period of growth. Not sure that sustains at that sort of level.
Speaker #3: But we've had good growth in Global Banking. And most importantly, in the top right, Consumer has begun to turn and is growing. And that's the most powerful engine for us.
Speaker #3: Those are the most valuable balances. We’ve now got three quarters of year-over-year growth. Supplies to grow, applies to accelerate. So that’s very important. And wealth management is bottoming here.
Speaker #3: So we feel good about the mix of deposits changing in our favor this year, and we'll just need to make sure that we keep track of that through the course of the year. But we're pretty optimistic on that.
Alastair Borthwick: We'll just need to make sure that we keep track of that through the course of the year, but we're pretty optimistic on that, Jim.
We'll just need to make sure that we keep track of that through the course of the year, but we're pretty optimistic on that, Jim.
Speaker #3: Jim. Right.
Operator: Right. So I guess when you think about maybe inflection in consumer deposits growing, loan growth still strong, you'd have an NII target of 5% to 7% for this year. Can we just drill down and look at NII ex-markets? It's grown about 5% over the past two quarters. Is that a reasonable growth rate for this year, or do rate cuts make that a little more challenging? Just how do we think about the markets versus ex-markets NII dynamic?
Jim Mitchell: Right. So I guess when you think about maybe inflection in consumer deposits growing, loan growth still strong, you'd have an NII target of 5% to 7% for this year. Can we just drill down and look at NII ex-markets? It's grown about 5% over the past two quarters. Is that a reasonable growth rate for this year, or do rate cuts make that a little more challenging? Just how do we think about the markets versus ex-markets NII dynamic?
Speaker #2: So I guess when you think about, maybe, inflection in Consumer, deposits growing, loan growth still strong, you'd have an NII target of 5 to 7% for this year.
Speaker #2: Can we just drill down and look at NIIX markets? It's grown about 5% over the past two quarters. Is that a reasonable growth rate for this year?
Speaker #2: Or do rate cuts make that a little more challenging? Just how do we think about the markets versus X markets, NII dynamic?
Speaker #3: Yeah, so markets are going to benefit from a couple of different things. First, we obviously invested 10% plus into the Global Markets balance sheet.
Alastair Borthwick: Yeah. So markets is going to benefit from a couple of different things. First, we obviously invested 10% plus into the global markets balance sheet. So that tends to mean that we're likely to grow NII, okay? Second, a big portion of that growth has been in loans. They're totally about NII. So that obviously is helpful. Third, when rates are cut, because markets tend to be liability sensitive, that tends to be good for markets NII. Okay. All those things are true. And the only thing, Jim, that I was just making sure that I pointed out in my comments earlier was we ended up at $15.9 billion. That is what I would consider to be mostly all core NII. It just happens that we had about $100 million or so of global markets NII that I think will revert back to MMSA next period.
Alastair Borthwick: Yeah. So markets is going to benefit from a couple of different things. First, we obviously invested 10% plus into the global markets balance sheet. So that tends to mean that we're likely to grow NII, okay? Second, a big portion of that growth has been in loans. They're totally about NII. So that obviously is helpful. Third, when rates are cut, because markets tend to be liability sensitive, that tends to be good for markets NII. Okay. All those things are true. And the only thing, Jim, that I was just making sure that I pointed out in my comments earlier was we ended up at $15.9 billion. That is what I would consider to be mostly all core NII. It just happens that we had about $100 million or so of global markets NII that I think will revert back to MMSA next period.
Speaker #3: So that tends to mean that we're likely to grow NII, okay? Second, a big portion of that growth has been in loans. They're totally about NII.
Speaker #3: So that obviously is helpful. Third, when rates are cut—because markets tend to be liability-sensitive—that tends to be good for markets' NII. Okay.
Speaker #3: All those things are true. And the only thing, Jim, that I was just making sure that I pointed out in my comments earlier was, when we ended up at $15.9 billion, that is what I would consider to be mostly all core NII.
Speaker #3: It just happens that we had about $100 million or so of Global Markets NII that I think will revert back to MMSA next period.
Speaker #3: So that's the one part that I just feel like is important for us to note. But otherwise, I think Global Markets NII will grow with the continued investment in loans and in the business over time.
Alastair Borthwick: So that's the one part that I just feel like is important for us to note. But otherwise, I think Global Markets NII will grow with the continued investment in loans and in the business over time.
So that's the one part that I just feel like is important for us to note. But otherwise, I think Global Markets NII will grow with the continued investment in loans and in the business over time.
Speaker #2: Okay, thanks. Thank you. We'll now move on to Chris McGrathy with KBW. Your line is now open.
Operator: Okay. Thanks. Thank you. We'll now move on to Chris McGratty with KBW. Your line is now open.
Jim Mitchell: Okay. Thanks.
Operator: Thank you. We'll now move on to Chris McGratty with KBW. Your line is now open.
Speaker #2: open. Oh, great.
Brian Moynihan: Oh, great. Good morning. Alastair, on the funding remix, I guess, what's left to go in your view based on your core deposit trends, and how much of that is baked into the guide, the liability optimization?
Chris McGratty: Oh, great. Good morning. Alastair, on the funding remix, I guess, what's left to go in your view based on your core deposit trends, and how much of that is baked into the guide, the liability optimization?
Speaker #11: Good morning. Alastair, on the funding remix, I guess, what's left to go in your view based on your core deposit trends? And how much of that is baked into the guide, that liability optimization?
Speaker #3: You're talking about how much of the wholesale funding can we—
Alastair Borthwick: You're talking how much of the wholesale funding can we take down over time?
Alastair Borthwick: You're talking how much of the wholesale funding can we take down over time?
Speaker #3: Take down over time? Yeah, that's—
Operator: Yeah, that's right.
Chris McGratty: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker #3: I'd say probably at right this point, somewhere around $50 to $100 billion, just on ballpark, in that between repo, CP, some of the short-term wholesale funding, institutional CDs that we put out there that are just quietly rolling off now, quarter after quarter after quarter.
Alastair Borthwick: I'd say probably at this point, somewhere around $50 to 100 billion dollars, just on ballparking that between repo, CP, some of the short-term wholesale funding, institutional CDs that we put out there that are just quietly rolling off now quarter after quarter after quarter. So that's the sort of number I would use.
Alastair Borthwick: I'd say probably at this point, somewhere around $50 to 100 billion dollars, just on ballparking that between repo, CP, some of the short-term wholesale funding, institutional CDs that we put out there that are just quietly rolling off now quarter after quarter after quarter. So that's the sort of number I would use.
Speaker #3: So that's a sort of number I would use.
Speaker #2: Okay, great. And then just piggybacking on the loan growth comment, the optimism I heard on the commercial growth—are there any asset classes you’re perhaps not as optimistic about into 2026?
Operator: Okay. Great. And then just piggybacking on the loan growth comment, the optimism I heard on the commercial growth, I guess any asset classes, perhaps not as optimistic into 2026. And if I missed it on the card expectations with the proposal, any comments there about either growth or expectations to offset that would be great. Thanks.
Chris McGratty: Okay. Great. And then just piggybacking on the loan growth comment, the optimism I heard on the commercial growth, I guess any asset classes, perhaps not as optimistic into 2026. And if I missed it on the card expectations with the proposal, any comments there about either growth or expectations to offset that would be great. Thanks.
Speaker #2: And if I missed it on the card expectations with the proposal, any comments there about either growth or expectations for to offset that would be great.
Speaker #2: Thanks.
Speaker #3: Just restate the question one more time for me.
Alastair Borthwick: Just restate the question one more time for me. Just say it again.
Alastair Borthwick: Just restate the question one more time for me. Just say it again.
Speaker #3: Just say it again. Oh,
Operator: Oh, sure. Expectations for loan growth, anything you're not pushing on for growth, and then given the president's proposed 10% cap on card yields, any comments related to that, related to your card strategy? Thank you.
Chris McGratty: Oh, sure. Expectations for loan growth, anything you're not pushing on for growth, and then given the president's proposed 10% cap on card yields, any comments related to that, related to your card strategy? Thank you.
Speaker #2: Sure. Expectations for loan growth—anything you're not pushing on for growth? And then, given the president's proposed 10% cap on card yields, any comments related to that—related to your card business?
Speaker #2: strategy? Thank you. Yeah.
Speaker #3: Okay. So on loans, I'd say we're pushing for loan growth everywhere we can find good, high-quality loan growth. So there is no place that we're not pushing.
Alastair Borthwick: Yeah. Okay. So on loans, I mean, I'd say we're pushing for loan growth everywhere we can find good, high-quality loan growth. So there is no place that we're not pushing. We obviously have substantial excess of deposits above our loans, so we've got a lot of capacity there. We've got a lot of excess capital we'd like to continue to deploy if we can find productive uses with our client base. So we're pushing everywhere. I think commercials obviously had a good period. Wealth management has had a good period too. Some of that relates to things like traditional securities-based lending, but some relates to wealthy people looking to purchase expensive assets, and we're there to help them with that, obviously. The consumer piece had been quieter last year, maybe picked up a little more this year. We can see the growth now in a variety of categories.
Alastair Borthwick: Yeah. Okay. So on loans, I mean, I'd say we're pushing for loan growth everywhere we can find good, high-quality loan growth. So there is no place that we're not pushing. We obviously have substantial excess of deposits above our loans, so we've got a lot of capacity there. We've got a lot of excess capital we'd like to continue to deploy if we can find productive uses with our client base. So we're pushing everywhere. I think commercials obviously had a good period. Wealth management has had a good period too. Some of that relates to things like traditional securities-based lending, but some relates to wealthy people looking to purchase expensive assets, and we're there to help them with that, obviously. The consumer piece had been quieter last year, maybe picked up a little more this year. We can see the growth now in a variety of categories.
Speaker #3: We obviously have a substantial excess of deposits above our loans, so we've got a lot of capacity there. We've got a lot of excess capital.
Speaker #3: We'd like to continue to deploy, if we can find productive uses with our client base. So we're pushing everywhere. I think commercials obviously had a good period.
Speaker #3: Wealth management has had a good period, too. Some of that relates to things like traditional securities-based lending, but some of it relates to wealthy people looking to purchase expensive assets.
Speaker #3: And we're there to help them with that, obviously. The consumer piece had been quieter last year, maybe picked up a little more this year.
Speaker #3: We can see the growth now in a variety of categories. Interesting to see home equity beginning to grow in a variety and across time.
Alastair Borthwick: Interesting to see home equity beginning to grow in variety and across time. Mortgage, a little more activity this past quarter. If you see our originations, you'll see we had more there in resi mortgage. So we're looking to continue to see pickup in consumer activity broadly. And again, we're trying to drive more card balances. So that's really important for us. That remains at the front of our strategy right now.
Interesting to see home equity beginning to grow in variety and across time. Mortgage, a little more activity this past quarter. If you see our originations, you'll see we had more there in resi mortgage. So we're looking to continue to see pickup in consumer activity broadly. And again, we're trying to drive more card balances. So that's really important for us. That remains at the front of our strategy right now.
Speaker #3: Mortgage had a little more activity this past quarter. If you see our originations, you'll see we had more there in resi mortgage. So we're looking to continue to see pickup in consumer activity broadly.
Speaker #3: And again, we're trying to drive more card balances, so that's really important for us. That remains at the front of our strategy, right?
Speaker #3: And again, we're trying to drive more card balances, so that's really important for us. That remains at the front of our strategy right now.
Speaker #1: Chris, on the rate cap—obviously, you're here. There's a good public debate going out there on if you have unintended consequences of capping rates, as has been proposed over many years by various components in Congress and stuff like that. The explanation we've always made sure people understood is that if you bring the caps down, you're going to constrict credit, meaning less people will get credit cards.
Brian Moynihan: Chris, on the rate cap, obviously, you're here. There's a good public debate going out there on the if you have unintended consequences of capping rates, as has been proposed over many years by various components in Congress and stuff like that. The explanation we've always made sure people understood is that if you bring the caps down, you're going to constrict credit, meaning less people will get credit cards, and the balance available to them on those credit cards will also be restricted. And so you have to balance that against what you're trying to achieve from the affordability. We're all in for affordability. You all know how we run our consumer business. It's the most fair to the consumer, and that's why we get good growth and high customer scores, and those keep increasing. So we built a product to stop people from going to payday lenders.
Brian Moynihan: Chris, on the rate cap, obviously, you're here. There's a good public debate going out there on the if you have unintended consequences of capping rates, as has been proposed over many years by various components in Congress and stuff like that. The explanation we've always made sure people understood is that if you bring the caps down, you're going to constrict credit, meaning less people will get credit cards, and the balance available to them on those credit cards will also be restricted. And so you have to balance that against what you're trying to achieve from the affordability. We're all in for affordability. You all know how we run our consumer business. It's the most fair to the consumer, and that's why we get good growth and high customer scores, and those keep increasing. So we built a product to stop people from going to payday lenders.
Speaker #1: And the balance available to them on those credit cards will also be restricted. And so, you have to balance that against what you're trying to achieve from the affordability.
Speaker #1: We're all in for affordability. You all know how we run our consumer business. It's the most fair to the consumer, and that's why we get good growth in high customer scores, and those are increasing.
Speaker #1: So we build a product to stop people from going to payday lenders. It's called Balance Assist. We've had a million, two million plus consumers have used that product to borrow.
Brian Moynihan: It's called Balance Assist. We've had a million-plus consumers have used that product to borrow a short-term loan for $500, up to $500 for a $5 fee. We have a no-frills credit card with a lower rate structure to it. We've had 7,000 clients this year took that card. And so we believe in affordability, but with instruments like the cap, you will see unintended consequences of that. And I think that's what you're seeing in the debate going on, as people are making their points to the various administration, Congress, and others involved.
It's called Balance Assist. We've had a million-plus consumers have used that product to borrow a short-term loan for $500, up to $500 for a $5 fee. We have a no-frills credit card with a lower rate structure to it. We've had 7,000 clients this year took that card. And so we believe in affordability, but with instruments like the cap, you will see unintended consequences of that. And I think that's what you're seeing in the debate going on, as people are making their points to the various administration, Congress, and others involved.
Speaker #1: A short-term loan for $500, for up to $500, for a $5 fee. We have a no-frills credit card with a lower rate structure to it.
Speaker #1: And we've had 700,000 clients this year take that card. And so we believe in affordability. But if, with instruments that cap, you will see unintended consequences of that.
Speaker #1: And I think that's what you're seeing in the debate going on, is people are making our points to the various—the administration and Congress and others involved.
Speaker #2: Okay, thank you very much. Thank you. We'll now move on to Glenn Shore with Evercore. Your line is now open.
Operator: Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. We'll now move on to Glenn Schorr with Evercore. Your line is now open.
Chris McGratty: Okay. Thank you very much.
Operator: Thank you. We'll now move on to Glenn Schorr with Evercore. Your line is now open.
Speaker #12: Hi there. I think you brought up an interesting point—getting people to focus away from the nominal expense dollars, and you obviously mentioned the less efficient revenues are growing—good from wealth and capital markets revenues.
Brian Moynihan: Hi there. I think you brought up an interesting point getting people to focus away from the nominal expense dollars. You obviously mentioned the less efficient revenues are growing good from wealth and capital markets revenues. So my question is, in a good backdrop like we're in, good economy, strong economy, everybody's got a job, markets are doing well, if you take a step back and you see flattish consumer deposits and downstream deposits, it's not what maybe you would have expected. And that's not a you thing. That's an everybody thing. So I'm wondering if you could address that, even with 680,000 new checking accounts. Why do you think we see this sluggishness in deposits, and do you think we'll see a turn at some point in 2026? Because that would help the operating leverage story as well.
Glenn Schorr: Hi there. I think you brought up an interesting point getting people to focus away from the nominal expense dollars. You obviously mentioned the less efficient revenues are growing good from wealth and capital markets revenues. So my question is, in a good backdrop like we're in, good economy, strong economy, everybody's got a job, markets are doing well, if you take a step back and you see flattish consumer deposits and downstream deposits, it's not what maybe you would have expected. And that's not a you thing. That's an everybody thing. So I'm wondering if you could address that, even with 680,000 new checking accounts. Why do you think we see this sluggishness in deposits, and do you think we'll see a turn at some point in 2026? Because that would help the operating leverage story as well.
Speaker #12: So my question is: in a good backdrop like we're in—a good economy, strong economy, everybody's got a job, markets are doing well—if you take a step back and you see flattish consumer deposits and down GWIM deposits, it's not what maybe you would have expected. And that's not a you thing.
Speaker #12: That's an everybody thing. So I'm wondering if you could address that. Even with 680,000 new checking accounts, why do you think we see this sluggishness in deposits?
Speaker #12: And do you think we'll see a turn at some point in '26? Because that would help the operating leverage story as well.
Speaker #3: Yeah. So I think you have to think about what the consumer—especially in the, well, even the wealthy consumer—they come to us for transactional accounts.
Brian Moynihan: Yeah. So I think you have to think about what the consumer, especially in the even the wealthy consumer, they come to us for transactional accounts, and they come to us with their savings money. And as market alternatives, off-balance sheet alternatives, money market funds, etc., ran up in rates, you saw a fair amount of money move in that, especially in the wealth management business. What Alastair explained earlier is that's kind of all behind us. Now, where the consumer's been stable and bumping along, the wealth management actually grew in the last part of the year. And so you're seeing it, and these have settled into much higher levels than they were traditionally. So I think wealth management was maybe $200 billion before the pandemic, maybe $230, something like that, $240 maybe, and it's moved to $280 type of level. So you're seeing a lot more cash stored.
Brian Moynihan: Yeah. So I think you have to think about what the consumer, especially in the even the wealthy consumer, they come to us for transactional accounts, and they come to us with their savings money. And as market alternatives, off-balance sheet alternatives, money market funds, etc., ran up in rates, you saw a fair amount of money move in that, especially in the wealth management business. What Alastair explained earlier is that's kind of all behind us. Now, where the consumer's been stable and bumping along, the wealth management actually grew in the last part of the year. And so you're seeing it, and these have settled into much higher levels than they were traditionally. So I think wealth management was maybe $200 billion before the pandemic, maybe $230, something like that, $240 maybe, and it's moved to $280 type of level. So you're seeing a lot more cash stored.
Speaker #3: And they come to us with their savings money. And as market alternatives—off-balance sheet alternatives, money market funds, etc.—ran up in rates, you saw a fair amount of money move in that, especially in the wealth management business.
Speaker #3: What Alastair explained earlier is that's kind of all behind. There's nowhere the consumer's been stable and bumping along. The wealth management actually grew in the last part of the year.
Speaker #3: And so you're seeing it, and these have settled into much higher levels than they were traditionally. So I think wealth management was maybe $100 or $200 billion before the pandemic, maybe $230, something like that, $240 maybe.
Speaker #3: And it's moved at a 280-type of level. So you're seeing a lot more cash stored. So, on the wealth side, it's people putting money into the off-balance-sheet yielding things because, frankly, we don't need the cash, as Alastair explained on some of the things.
Brian Moynihan: So on the wealth side, it's people putting money into the off-balance sheet yielding things because, frankly, we don't need the cash, as Alastair explained on some of the things. And then earlier on, the rates paid in CDs and things like that. And then secondly, it's actually the risk on trade that went in the market. And on the general consumer side, what's happened is they fine-tuned some of the higher pieces. And a lot of the decline in balances that we've experienced up until about a year ago, most of that decline was driven by wealthy consumers and our consumer franchise. In other words, the balances for the people who had less than $10,000 average balance before the pandemic or that were multiples of what they were pre-pandemic and then have been stable for the last few years.
So on the wealth side, it's people putting money into the off-balance sheet yielding things because, frankly, we don't need the cash, as Alastair explained on some of the things. And then earlier on, the rates paid in CDs and things like that. And then secondly, it's actually the risk on trade that went in the market. And on the general consumer side, what's happened is they fine-tuned some of the higher pieces. And a lot of the decline in balances that we've experienced up until about a year ago, most of that decline was driven by wealthy consumers and our consumer franchise. In other words, the balances for the people who had less than $10,000 average balance before the pandemic or that were multiples of what they were pre-pandemic and then have been stable for the last few years.
Speaker #3: And then earlier on, the rates paid, and CDs and things like that. And then secondly, it's actually the risk on trade. It went in the market.
Speaker #3: And on the general consumer side, what's happened is they fine-tuned some of the higher pieces in a lot of the decline in balances that we've experienced up until the last about a year ago.
Speaker #3: Most of that decline was driven by wealthy consumers and our consumer franchise. In other words, the balances for the people who had less than $10,000 average balance before the pandemic are still multiples of what they were pre-pandemic.
Speaker #3: And then we have been stable for the last few years. But the people who had $50,000, $100,000, $500,000, an average collective balance pre-pandemic, were down 20%.
Brian Moynihan: But the people who had $50,000, $100,000, $500,000 in average collected balances pre-pandemic were down 20%. And with the percentage of total deposits there, that drove it down on a relative basis, but again, that has stabilized. So we feel good where it's going. It's a lot of leverage. You have a consumer business which has a 50% profit margin around numbers. And so it contributes to that. And if you go back and look historically, we have gotten that number down pretty far. And as the biggest profit engine in the company is consumer US, driving that expense efficiency across the whole place.
But the people who had $50,000, $100,000, $500,000 in average collected balances pre-pandemic were down 20%. And with the percentage of total deposits there, that drove it down on a relative basis, but again, that has stabilized. So we feel good where it's going. It's a lot of leverage. You have a consumer business which has a 50% profit margin around numbers. And so it contributes to that. And if you go back and look historically, we have gotten that number down pretty far. And as the biggest profit engine in the company is consumer US, driving that expense efficiency across the whole place.
Speaker #3: And with the percentage of total deposits there, that drove it down on a relative basis. But again, that has stabilized, so we feel good where it's going.
Speaker #3: It's a lot of leverage. You have a consumer business which has a 50% profit margin, round numbers. And so it contributes to that. And if you go back and look historically, we have gotten that number down pretty far.
Speaker #3: And that, as the biggest profit engine in the company, is core to us, driving that expense efficiency across the whole place.
Speaker #12: Okay. I appreciate that, Brian. Maybe just a little more color on your comment on the IB pipeline—looks good. There are moving parts on the fourth quarter.
Brian Moynihan: Okay. I appreciate that, Brian. Maybe just a little more color on your comment on the IB pipeline looks good. There are moving parts in the fourth quarter, so I don't want to overemphasize the revenue environment. But maybe you could talk about the outlook. It's expected to be a pretty strong year. The underlying conditions are pretty strong for cap markets activity. So my question is, do you feel like you've made enough investments to capture more than your fair share, pickup share? And do you expect as good a year as I do? Thanks.
Glenn Schorr: Okay. I appreciate that, Brian. Maybe just a little more color on your comment on the IB pipeline looks good. There are moving parts in the fourth quarter, so I don't want to overemphasize the revenue environment. But maybe you could talk about the outlook. It's expected to be a pretty strong year. The underlying conditions are pretty strong for cap markets activity. So my question is, do you feel like you've made enough investments to capture more than your fair share, pickup share? And do you expect as good a year as I do? Thanks.
Speaker #12: So, I don't want to overemphasize the revenue environment, but maybe you could talk about the outlook. It's expected to be a pretty strong year.
Speaker #12: The underlying conditions are pretty strong for capital markets activity. So my question is, do you feel like you've made enough investments to capture more than your fair share, pick up share, and do you expect as good of a year as I do?
Speaker #12: Thanks.
Speaker #3: Well, I mean, I think we feel good about both of those. We feel good about the deal environment. Brian noted earlier, the second half of the year, investment banking fees were 25% higher than the first half of the year.
Brian Moynihan: Well, I mean, I think we feel good about both of those. We feel good about the deal environment. Brian noted earlier, second half of the year, investment banking fees were 25% higher than the first half of the year. And that's largely based on more and more certainty around tax, trade, and some of the things that really matter to CEOs, CFOs, and boards of directors. So we feel good about the investment banking environment. We feel good about our pipeline. And yes, on the second question, we feel good about our investments. So you know this, Glenn, but for the benefit of everyone, we've expanded our local banking presence around the United States to improve our client coverage. Today, we're in 24 different cities. We've got over 200 bankers in a group that really focus on middle market clients. We've seen the benefit of that.
Alastair Borthwick: Well, I mean, I think we feel good about both of those. We feel good about the deal environment. Brian noted earlier, second half of the year, investment banking fees were 25% higher than the first half of the year. And that's largely based on more and more certainty around tax, trade, and some of the things that really matter to CEOs, CFOs, and boards of directors. So we feel good about the investment banking environment. We feel good about our pipeline. And yes, on the second question, we feel good about our investments. So you know this, Glenn, but for the benefit of everyone, we've expanded our local banking presence around the United States to improve our client coverage. Today, we're in 24 different cities. We've got over 200 bankers in a group that really focus on middle market clients. We've seen the benefit of that.
Speaker #3: And that's largely based on more and more certainty around tax and trade, and some of the things that really matter to CEOs and CFOs and boards of directors.
Speaker #3: So, we feel good about the investment banking environment. We feel good about our pipeline. And yes, on the second question, we feel good about our investments.
Speaker #3: So, you know this, Glenn, but for the benefit of everyone, we've expanded our local banking presence around the United States to improve our client coverage.
Speaker #3: Today, we're in 24 different cities. We've got over 200 bankers in a group that really focus on middle market clients. We've seen the benefit of that.
Speaker #3: We expect to see that continue. As their relationships continue to grow, we're covering newer and emerging companies, and things like technology and healthcare, in a different way.
Brian Moynihan: We expect to see that continue as their relationships continue to grow. We're covering newer and emerging companies and things like technology and healthcare in a different way earlier in their life cycle. We're covering more clients internationally. So all of those places, we feel like, are the sorts of places that we should perform well. So yes, we feel good about that. Then I just say, when you look at performance overall, yep, we're at the top with some of the very largest transactions. So we feel like the franchise is in good shape.
We expect to see that continue as their relationships continue to grow. We're covering newer and emerging companies and things like technology and healthcare in a different way earlier in their life cycle. We're covering more clients internationally. So all of those places, we feel like, are the sorts of places that we should perform well. So yes, we feel good about that. Then I just say, when you look at performance overall, yep, we're at the top with some of the very largest transactions. So we feel like the franchise is in good shape.
Speaker #3: Earlier in their life cycle, and we're covering more clients internationally. So all of those places, we feel like, are the sorts of places that we should perform well.
Speaker #3: So yes, we feel good about that. And then I just say, when you look at performance overall, yep, we're at the top with some of the very largest transactions.
Speaker #3: So we feel like the franchise is in good shape.
Speaker #3: shape. Thanks,
Brian Moynihan: Thanks, Alastair.
Glenn Schorr: Thanks, Alastair.
Speaker #12: Alastair. Thank you.
Operator: Thank you. We'll now move on to Steven Chubak with Wolfe Research. Your line is now open.
Operator: Thank you. We'll now move on to Steven Chubak with Wolfe Research. Your line is now open.
Speaker #1: We'll now move on to Stephen Chubbick with WOLF Research. Your line is now open.
Speaker #13: Hi. Good morning. And thanks for taking my question.
Lee E. McEntire: Hi. Good morning, and thanks for taking my questions.
Steven Chubak: Hi. Good morning, and thanks for taking my questions.
Speaker #13: question. Thanks.
Brian Moynihan: Thanks.
Alastair Borthwick: Thanks.
Speaker #1: Wanted to hit Alastair. So I wanted to ask on the GWIM targets that you had outlined at Investor Day. You saw some good momentum exiting the year.
Lee E. McEntire: Hey, Alastair. I wanted to ask on the GWM targets that you had outlined at Investor Day. You saw some good momentum exiting the year. You outlined the 30% margin target with accelerating growth expectations on the organic side. But new recruitment does require some upfront investment. Just wanted to understand what gives you confidence you can deliver both the acceleration and organic while still driving better operating leverage.
Glenn Schorr: Hey, Alastair. I wanted to ask on the GWM targets that you had outlined at Investor Day. You saw some good momentum exiting the year. You outlined the 30% margin target with accelerating growth expectations on the organic side. But new recruitment does require some upfront investment. Just wanted to understand what gives you confidence you can deliver both the acceleration and organic while still driving better operating leverage.
Speaker #1: You outlined the 30% margin target with accelerating growth. Expectations on the organic side. But new recruitment does require some upfront investment. So just wanted to understand what gives you confidence you can deliver both the acceleration in organic while still driving better operating...
Speaker #1: leverage. Yep.
Brian Moynihan: Yep. So I think if you were to ask Lindsay and Eric, they'd tell you, and if you ask Katy, they'd tell you that they enjoy significant competitive advantage as it relates to covering our clients. So obviously, we're in the wealth business, but we're also in the banking business. We have high tech and we have high touch. We are digital, but we're also local, and we offer scale. And then in terms of prospecting for wealthy families to add net new, we've got consumer, business banking, commercial banking, and corporate investment banking, all helping that group, working together. So that franchise is one then that can deliver. And if you were to look at, for example, competitive attrition this quarter, the lowest we've seen in years.
Alastair Borthwick: Yep. So I think if you were to ask Lindsay and Eric, they'd tell you, and if you ask Katy, they'd tell you that they enjoy significant competitive advantage as it relates to covering our clients. So obviously, we're in the wealth business, but we're also in the banking business. We have high tech and we have high touch. We are digital, but we're also local, and we offer scale. And then in terms of prospecting for wealthy families to add net new, we've got consumer, business banking, commercial banking, and corporate investment banking, all helping that group, working together. So that franchise is one then that can deliver. And if you were to look at, for example, competitive attrition this quarter, the lowest we've seen in years.
Speaker #3: So I think if you were to ask Lindsay and Eric, they'd tell you. And if you ask Katie, they'd tell you that they enjoy significant competitive advantage as it relates to covering our clients.
Speaker #3: So, obviously, we're in the wealth business, but we're also in the banking business. We have high-tech, and we have high-touch. We are digital, but we're also local.
Speaker #3: And we offer scale. And then, in terms of prospecting for wealthy families to add net new, we've got Consumer, Business Banking, Commercial Banking, and Corporate Investment Banking all helping that group, working together.
Speaker #3: So that franchise is one then that can deliver. And if you were to look at what if you were to look at, for example, competitive attrition, this quarter, the lowest we've seen in years I think the Merrill FA see the value of our franchise and how they can help their own clients over a long period of time.
Brian Moynihan: I think the Merrill FA see the value of our franchise and how they can help their own clients over a long period of time. We're picking up the recruiting of experienced advisors. That isn't an enormous part of our strategy, but it's an important part. Then in addition, we've got an enormous training program so that we're training people in wealth management at Bank of America and Merrill. That's ultimately what we believe we can just keep driving in order to improve the net new flows.
I think the Merrill FA see the value of our franchise and how they can help their own clients over a long period of time. We're picking up the recruiting of experienced advisors. That isn't an enormous part of our strategy, but it's an important part. Then in addition, we've got an enormous training program so that we're training people in wealth management at Bank of America and Merrill. That's ultimately what we believe we can just keep driving in order to improve the net new flows.
Speaker #3: And we're picking up the recruiting of experienced advisors. That isn't an enormous part of our strategy, but it's an important part. And then, in addition, we've got an enormous training program so that we're training people in wealth management, Bank of America, and Merrill.
Speaker #3: And that's ultimately what we believe—we can just keep driving in order to improve the net new.
Speaker #3: flows. That's great.
Lee E. McEntire: That's great. And then just one ticky-tack question on the tax rate. First off, thank you for implementing the accounting change. Certainly makes our lives much easier from a modeling standpoint. I know that it appeared, at least in the 8-K, that there was a small stub of tax-advantaged investments where you didn't adjust the treatment. So I wanted to just understand if that 20% tax rate is expected to hold going forward beyond 2026, or if there's any potential for very modest but still a little bit of upward drift as earnings continue to ramp.
Steven Chubak: That's great. And then just one ticky-tack question on the tax rate. First off, thank you for implementing the accounting change. Certainly makes our lives much easier from a modeling standpoint. I know that it appeared, at least in the 8-K, that there was a small stub of tax-advantaged investments where you didn't adjust the treatment. So I wanted to just understand if that 20% tax rate is expected to hold going forward beyond 2026, or if there's any potential for very modest but still a little bit of upward drift as earnings continue to ramp.
Speaker #1: And then just one ticky-tack question on the tax rate. First off, thank you for implementing the accounting change—it certainly makes our lives much easier from a modeling standpoint.
Speaker #1: I know that it appeared, at least in the AK, that there was a small stub of tax-advantaged investments where you didn't adjust the treatment.
Speaker #1: So I wanted to just understand if that 20% tax rate is expected to hold going forward beyond 2026, or if there's any potential for very modest, but still a little bit of upward drift, as earnings continue to—
Speaker #1: ramp. For now, I'd use
Brian Moynihan: For now, I'd use the 20. I mean, obviously, hence the guidance earlier. You're right. There are a small number of deals that don't qualify for the treatment. Now, over time, all of those are going to burn down and burn off. And then in addition, you've got the question of whether or not some of the tax credit equity deals will end up expiring after 2027. So I think over a very long period of time, it's possible that the effective tax rate drifts up. But we'll be able to give you more guidance on that as we go through the various years.
Alastair Borthwick: For now, I'd use the 20. I mean, obviously, hence the guidance earlier. You're right. There are a small number of deals that don't qualify for the treatment. Now, over time, all of those are going to burn down and burn off. And then in addition, you've got the question of whether or not some of the tax credit equity deals will end up expiring after 2027. So I think over a very long period of time, it's possible that the effective tax rate drifts up. But we'll be able to give you more guidance on that as we go through the various years.
Speaker #3: The 20. I mean, obviously, hence the guidance earlier. You're right. There are a small number of deals that don't qualify for the treatment. Now, over time, all of those are going to burn down and burn off.
Speaker #3: And then, in addition, you've got the question of whether or not some of the tax credit equity deals will end up expiring after 2027.
Speaker #3: So, I think over a very long period of time, it's possible that the effective tax rate drifts up. But we'll be able to give you more guidance on that as we go through the various—
Speaker #3: years. That's great.
Lee E. McEntire: That's great. Thanks so much for taking my questions.
Steven Chubak: That's great. Thanks so much for taking my questions.
Speaker #1: Thanks so much for taking my question.
Speaker #1: Thank you so much for taking my questions. Thank you.
Operator: Thank you. We'll now move on to Gerard Cassidy with RBC. Your line is now open.
Operator: Thank you. We'll now move on to Gerard Cassidy with RBC. Your line is now open.
Speaker #4: You. We'll now move on to Gerard Cassidy with RBC. Your line is now open.
Speaker #4: open. Hi, Brian.
Mike Mayo: Hi, Brian. Hi, Alastair.
Gerard Cassidy: Hi, Brian. Hi, Alastair.
Speaker #14: Hi,
Speaker #14: Alastair. Hi there. Can you guys share with us, as you know, with the Genius Act was passed and there's a lot of talk about stablecoin deposits?
Brian Moynihan: Hi there.
Alastair Borthwick: Hi there.
Mike Mayo: Can you guys share with us, as you know, the Genius Act was passed, and there's a lot of talk about stablecoin deposits. And I think they're now trying to figure out how to close a loophole so that the stablecoin deposits cannot pay interest. If they're not, meaning Congress, if they're not successful in closing that loophole, what's kind of the impact that you guys are thinking that could happen from this trend in stablecoin deposits?
Gerard Cassidy: Can you guys share with us, as you know, the Genius Act was passed, and there's a lot of talk about stablecoin deposits. And I think they're now trying to figure out how to close a loophole so that the stablecoin deposits cannot pay interest. If they're not, meaning Congress, if they're not successful in closing that loophole, what's kind of the impact that you guys are thinking that could happen from this trend in stablecoin deposits?
Speaker #14: And I think they're now trying to figure out how to close the loophole so that the stablecoin deposits cannot pay interest. If they're not meeting Congress, if they're not successful in closing that loophole, what's kind of the impact that you guys are thinking that could happen from this trend in stablecoin deposits?
Speaker #3: So, I think I would not look—we'll be fine. We'll have the product, we'll meet a customer demand, whatever may surface, and so I don't worry about it.
Brian Moynihan: So I think I would not look, we'll be fine. We'll have the product. We'll meet the customer demand, whatever may surface. And so I don't worry about it. But the point we've tried to make, and if you look at some studies, I think one done by Treasury, is that they say you can see upwards of $6 trillion in deposits flow off the liabilities of a banking system to the, as the deposits into the stablecoin environment. And the key of that is to think that the restrictions to be a stablecoin is basically think of it as a money market mutual fund concept. It has to be invested in only deposits, a banking Fed, or treasuries in short-term. And so when you think about that, that takes lending capacity out of the system.
Brian Moynihan: So I think I would not look, we'll be fine. We'll have the product. We'll meet the customer demand, whatever may surface. And so I don't worry about it. But the point we've tried to make, and if you look at some studies, I think one done by Treasury, is that they say you can see upwards of $6 trillion in deposits flow off the liabilities of a banking system to the, as the deposits into the stablecoin environment. And the key of that is to think that the restrictions to be a stablecoin is basically think of it as a money market mutual fund concept. It has to be invested in only deposits, a banking Fed, or treasuries in short-term. And so when you think about that, that takes lending capacity out of the system.
Speaker #3: But the point we've tried to make, and if you look at some studies—I think were done by Treasury—is that they say you can see upwards of $6 trillion in deposits flow off the liabilities of a banking system to the deposits into the stablecoin environment.
Speaker #3: And the key of that is to think that the restrictions to be a stablecoin is basically to think of it as a money market mutual fund concept.
Speaker #3: It has to be invested in only deposits, banking, Fed, or Treasuries—and short term. And so when you think about that, that takes lending capacity out of the system.
Speaker #3: And that is the bigger concern that we've all expressed to Congress as they think about this, is that if you move it outside the system, you'll reduce lending capacity of banks. That particularly hurts small and medium-sized businesses, because they're largely lent to, and consumers, by the banking industry, whereas capital markets-oriented companies go off into the market.
Brian Moynihan: That is the bigger concern that we've all expressed to Congress as they think about this: if you move it outside the system, you'll reduce lending capacity of banks. That particularly hurts small, medium-sized businesses because they're largely lent to end consumers by the banking industry where capital markets-oriented companies go off into the market. So I think in the end of the day, at the margin, the industry gets loaned up. And if you take out deposits, they're either not going to be able to loan, or they're going to have to get wholesale funding. And that wholesale funding will come at a cost that will increase the cost of borrowing. And so that's the issue that people have to struggle about. Do I think it affects the course of history of Bank of America? No, we'll be competitive and drive it.
That is the bigger concern that we've all expressed to Congress as they think about this: if you move it outside the system, you'll reduce lending capacity of banks. That particularly hurts small, medium-sized businesses because they're largely lent to end consumers by the banking industry where capital markets-oriented companies go off into the market. So I think in the end of the day, at the margin, the industry gets loaned up. And if you take out deposits, they're either not going to be able to loan, or they're going to have to get wholesale funding. And that wholesale funding will come at a cost that will increase the cost of borrowing. And so that's the issue that people have to struggle about. Do I think it affects the course of history of Bank of America? No, we'll be competitive and drive it.
Speaker #3: So I think, in the end of the day, at the margin, the industry gets loaned up. And if you take out deposits, they're not going to—they're either not going to be able to loan, or they're going to have to get wholesale funding.
Speaker #3: And that wholesale funding will come at a cost that will increase the cost of borrowing. And so that's the issue that people have to struggle about.
Speaker #3: Do I think it affects the course of history of Bank of America? No, we'll be competitive and drive it. But I think in the industry overall, I think it's something that we've expressed concern about as an industry.
Brian Moynihan: But I think in the industry overall, I think it's something that we've expressed concern as an industry, and we continue to make sure that they see those issues as our trade groups and others as they work through the final legislation. What will come out of it? I don't know in terms of adjustments or thoughts about that, and working on it as we speak.
But I think in the industry overall, I think it's something that we've expressed concern as an industry, and we continue to make sure that they see those issues as our trade groups and others as they work through the final legislation. What will come out of it? I don't know in terms of adjustments or thoughts about that, and working on it as we speak.
Speaker #3: And we continue to make sure that they see those issues as they are, trade groups and others, as they work through the final legislation.
Speaker #3: What will come out of it? I don't know. In terms of adjustments or thoughts about that in working on it as we...
Speaker #3: speak. Very good.
Mike Mayo: Very good. Thank you, Brian. Just as a follow-up question, obviously, you guys have presented a positive outlook for yourselves for 2026. The industry appears to be setting up very well with deregulation, steepening yield curve, healthy economic growth. Loan growth is picking up according to the H8 data. As bank investors, we've learned to always look over our shoulder. It seems like the worry now is there aren't many worries out there. Do you guys, when you look at other than the geopolitical risk, of course, which is always a risk, what do you guys focus on just to keep an eye on in case something goes off the rails or something?
Gerard Cassidy: Very good. Thank you, Brian. Just as a follow-up question, obviously, you guys have presented a positive outlook for yourselves for 2026. The industry appears to be setting up very well with deregulation, steepening yield curve, healthy economic growth. Loan growth is picking up according to the H8 data. As bank investors, we've learned to always look over our shoulder. It seems like the worry now is there aren't many worries out there. Do you guys, when you look at other than the geopolitical risk, of course, which is always a risk, what do you guys focus on just to keep an eye on in case something goes off the rails or something?
Speaker #15: Thank you, Brian. And just as a follow-up question, obviously, you guys have presented a positive outlook for yourselves for 2026. The industry appears to be setting up very well, with deregulation, a steepening yield curve, healthy economic growth, and loan growth is picking up according to the H.8 data.
Speaker #15: And as bank investors, we've learned to always look over our shoulder. But it seems like the worry now is there aren't many worries out there.
Speaker #15: Do you guys—when you look at, other than the geopolitical risk, of course, which is always a risk—what do you guys focus on, just to keep an eye on in case something goes off the rails? Or—
Speaker #15: something? Yeah.
Brian Moynihan: Yep. It's the don't be a contrarian there, Gerard. Come on.
Brian Moynihan: Yep. It's the don't be a contrarian there, Gerard. Come on.
Speaker #3: It's the 'Don't be a curmudgeon there, Gerard.'
Mike Mayo: Agreed.
Gerard Cassidy: Agreed.
Speaker #3: Day agreed to day. At the end of the day, think about it structurally. We are always doing stress tests that reflect a 50% decline in house prices and market declines and all that kind of stuff.
Brian Moynihan: At the end of the day, at the end of the day, think about a structure. We are all always doing stress tests that reflect a 50% decline in house prices, market declines, and all that kind of stuff. And we test ourselves every quarter. We have trading stresses run every day. And so you're always trying to see at the end of the day, whatever configuration of activities that produces the result, the result that's going to reverberate into the global financial system, the US financial system, and the US banking system is going to be the economy, right? The recessionary environment, the high unemployment, those types of things. So what we do is we stress scenarios that produce those characteristics. But really, if you think about it, the stress test is going from where we are today up to 10% plus unemployment.
Brian Moynihan: At the end of the day, at the end of the day, think about a structure. We are all always doing stress tests that reflect a 50% decline in house prices, market declines, and all that kind of stuff. And we test ourselves every quarter. We have trading stresses run every day. And so you're always trying to see at the end of the day, whatever configuration of activities that produces the result, the result that's going to reverberate into the global financial system, the US financial system, and the US banking system is going to be the economy, right? The recessionary environment, the high unemployment, those types of things. So what we do is we stress scenarios that produce those characteristics. But really, if you think about it, the stress test is going from where we are today up to 10% plus unemployment.
Speaker #3: And we test ourselves every quarter. We have trading stresses that run every day. And so you're always trying to see, at the end of the day, whatever configuration of activities that produces a result—the result that's going to reverberate into the global financial system, and to the U.S. financial system, and into the U.S. banking system—is going to be the economy, right?
Speaker #3: The recessionary environment, the high unemployment, those types of things. So what we do is we stress scenarios that produce those characteristics. But really, if you think about it, the stress test is going from where we are today up to 10% plus unemployment, house prices down. As I said, the way the methodology doesn't really allow you to adjust your operating expenses, which we know we had to adjust.
Brian Moynihan: House prices down, as I said. The methodology doesn't really allow you to adjust your operating expenses, which we know we had to adjust. You can see the industry passes stress tests. That's, I think, one of the most valuable things that came out of the regulation. Our goal is to get those fine-tuned a little bit so they don't swing back and forth depending on who's applying the test. But the reality is it's a good thing, and we all support that. I think that's the way to measure it. Is there a parade of horribles that you can outline that you started rattling off, and I could rattle off? Yes. But you sat there and said last year at this time, those same dimensions were in place two years ago, three years ago, four years ago.
House prices down, as I said. The methodology doesn't really allow you to adjust your operating expenses, which we know we had to adjust. You can see the industry passes stress tests. That's, I think, one of the most valuable things that came out of the regulation. Our goal is to get those fine-tuned a little bit so they don't swing back and forth depending on who's applying the test. But the reality is it's a good thing, and we all support that. I think that's the way to measure it. Is there a parade of horribles that you can outline that you started rattling off, and I could rattle off? Yes. But you sat there and said last year at this time, those same dimensions were in place two years ago, three years ago, four years ago.
Speaker #3: And you can see the industry passive stress test. And that's, I think, one of the most valuable things that came out of the regulation.
Speaker #3: And our goal is to get those fine-tuned a little bit so they don't swing back and forth depending on who is supplying the test.
Speaker #3: But the reality is, it's a good thing, and we all support that. So I think that's the way to measure it. Is there a parade of horribles that you can outline, that you started rattling off?
Speaker #3: And I could rattle off, yes. But you sat there and said last year at this time, those same dimensions were in place two years ago, three years ago, four years ago.
Speaker #3: But we just don't see what we see differently than this—maybe three or four years ago—is the momentum in the market, the capital markets activity, and the investment in AI. The consumer spending is 150 basis points higher than it was back then.
Brian Moynihan: But we just don't see what we see differently than this. Maybe three or four years ago is the momentum in the capital markets activity, in the investment in AI, in the consumer spending is 150 basis points higher than it was back then in our customer base. The credit quality is, we're running at 40 basis points levels. That's the level that is among the lowest in the history that we could find in a company going back 30, 50 years. These are good setups, but we're always worried about what could happen next, as you say. And that's why we do the stress testing. That's why we have the balance. And effectively, that's why we drive responsible growth. We have a balance in lending. We're not over-renting in any one industry. We manage those things. We make sure that we take the credit risk.
But we just don't see what we see differently than this. Maybe three or four years ago is the momentum in the capital markets activity, in the investment in AI, in the consumer spending is 150 basis points higher than it was back then in our customer base. The credit quality is, we're running at 40 basis points levels. That's the level that is among the lowest in the history that we could find in a company going back 30, 50 years. These are good setups, but we're always worried about what could happen next, as you say. And that's why we do the stress testing. That's why we have the balance. And effectively, that's why we drive responsible growth. We have a balance in lending. We're not over-renting in any one industry. We manage those things. We make sure that we take the credit risk.
Speaker #3: In our customer base, the credit quality is—we're running at 40 basis points levels. That's a level that is among the lowest in the history that we could find in the company, going back 30, 50 years.
Speaker #3: These are our good setups. But we're always worried about what could happen next, as you say. And that's why we do the stress testing.
Speaker #3: That's why we have the balance. And, effectively, that's why we derive our responsible growth. We have a balance in lending. We're not overlent in any one industry.
Speaker #3: We manage those things. We make sure that we take the credit risk. We don't have a lot of stored risk that the industry had leading into the financial crisis—meaning CDOs and things like that.
Brian Moynihan: We don't have a lot of stored risk that the industry had leading the financial crisis, meaning CDOs and things like that. So the industry is in pretty good shape. Yep, there'll be something that will happen, and we'll all have to adjust to it. Let's just hope it takes us longer the next year to happen.
We don't have a lot of stored risk that the industry had leading the financial crisis, meaning CDOs and things like that. So the industry is in pretty good shape. Yep, there'll be something that will happen, and we'll all have to adjust to it. Let's just hope it takes us longer the next year to happen.
Speaker #3: So, the industry is in pretty good shape. Yet, there'll be something that will happen, and we'll all have to adjust to it. Let's just hope that it takes us longer than next year for that to happen.
Speaker #15: Yeah, no, no. Totally agree with you. Good answer. Thank you.
Mike Mayo: Yeah. No, no. Totally agree with you. Yep. Good answer. Thank you, Brian.
Gerard Cassidy: Yeah. No, no. Totally agree with you. Yep. Good answer. Thank you, Brian.
Speaker #15: Brian. Thank you.
Operator: Thank you. We'll now move on to Saul Martinez with HSBC. Your line is now open. Please go ahead.
Operator: Thank you. We'll now move on to Saul Martinez with HSBC. Your line is now open. Please go ahead.
Speaker #2: We'll now move on to Seoul. Martinez with HSBC, your line is now open. Please go ahead.
Speaker #2: Go ahead. Thanks for taking my question.
John McDonald: Hi, Sol.
Brian Moynihan: Hi, Sol.
Mike Mayo: Hi. Thanks for taking my question. I wanted to follow up on credit, apologize if you addressed this in the prepared remarks, but it's been a busy morning. Your loan loss provisions and charge-offs have been particularly low in the last couple of quarters. Brian, you just mentioned the 40 basis points being historically low. Wholesale also very low. I'm just curious your thoughts on whether you think we're at below trend levels of losses and in what categories. Is there a way to think about what more normalized levels of losses would be, even in an economic environment that remains benign as we have now?
Saul Martinez: Hi. Thanks for taking my question. I wanted to follow up on credit, apologize if you addressed this in the prepared remarks, but it's been a busy morning. Your loan loss provisions and charge-offs have been particularly low in the last couple of quarters. Brian, you just mentioned the 40 basis points being historically low. Wholesale also very low. I'm just curious your thoughts on whether you think we're at below trend levels of losses and in what categories. Is there a way to think about what more normalized levels of losses would be, even in an economic environment that remains benign as we have now?
Speaker #16: And I wanted to follow up on credit. And I apologize if you addressed this in the prepared remarks, but it's been a busy morning. But your loan loss provisions and charge-offs have been particularly low in the last couple of quarters.
Speaker #16: Brian, you just mentioned the 40 basis points being historically low. Wholesale also very low. I'm just curious—your thoughts on whether you think we're at below-trend levels of losses, and in what categories.
Speaker #16: And is there a way to think about what more normalized levels of losses would be, even in an economic environment that remains benign, as we have?
Speaker #16: now? Well, you're
Brian Moynihan: Well, you're right. Asset qualities perform quite well. You can see that in consumer. You can see that in commercial. At Investor Day, we gave an idea of what we thought through the cycle might be. I think we said at the time 50 to 55 basis points. So you can see right now, the last two quarters, we were at 47 and 44 overall. So we're obviously happy to see that. We feel like we underwrite the right risk. We feel like we select the right clients. We feel like we've earned that, and it happens to be a good environment right now. But maybe the 50 to 55 is the right number for through the cycle. No change to Investor Day.
Alastair Borthwick: Well, you're right. Asset qualities perform quite well. You can see that in consumer. You can see that in commercial. At Investor Day, we gave an idea of what we thought through the cycle might be. I think we said at the time 50 to 55 basis points. So you can see right now, the last two quarters, we were at 47 and 44 overall. So we're obviously happy to see that. We feel like we underwrite the right risk. We feel like we select the right clients. We feel like we've earned that, and it happens to be a good environment right now. But maybe the 50 to 55 is the right number for through the cycle. No change to Investor Day.
Speaker #3: Right. Asset quality has performed quite well. You can see that in consumer. You can see that in commercial. At Investor Day, we gave an idea of what we thought through the cycle might be.
Speaker #3: I think we said at the time 50 to 55 basis points. So, you can see right now, the last two quarters we were at 47 and 44 overall.
Speaker #3: So we're obviously happy to see that. We feel like we underwrite the right risk. We feel like we select the right clients. We feel like we've earned that.
Speaker #3: And it happens to be a good environment right now. But maybe the 50 to 55 is the right number for through the cycle. No change to Investor Day.
Speaker #2: Okay, okay. That's helpful. And I guess, on consumer deposits—you expressed some optimism that you're seeing an inflection there, and some acceleration. Just curious where you think the growth can get to.
Mike Mayo: Okay. Okay. That's helpful. I guess consumer deposits, you expressed some optimism that you're seeing an inflection there and some acceleration. Just curious where you think the growth can get to. Do you think we can get to mid-single-digit types of growth in consumer deposits? What are some of the variables that would drive that? Does it depend on additional rate cuts? Just kind of curious where you think a more normalized level of, or not a more normalized level of growth, but where do you think it could go to as rates come down and deposit growth starts to materialize?
Saul Martinez: Okay. Okay. That's helpful. I guess consumer deposits, you expressed some optimism that you're seeing an inflection there and some acceleration. Just curious where you think the growth can get to. Do you think we can get to mid-single-digit types of growth in consumer deposits? What are some of the variables that would drive that? Does it depend on additional rate cuts? Just kind of curious where you think a more normalized level of, or not a more normalized level of growth, but where do you think it could go to as rates come down and deposit growth starts to materialize?
Speaker #2: Do you think we can get to mid-single-digit types of growth in consumer deposits? And what are some of the variables that would drive that?
Speaker #2: Does it depend on additional rate cuts? And I'm just kind of curious where you think a more normalized level of—or not a more normalized level of—growth, but where do you think it could go to as rates come down and deposit growth starts to...
Speaker #2: materialize? Well,
Brian Moynihan: Well, Brian did a nice job of sort of setting the historical context. We've had an enormous pandemic bump followed by normalization back towards something that would be more just normal for consumers in terms of what they would have in their checking accounts. That has taken years. But what we're seeing right now, Saul, is if you look at the checking account balances, for example, they're up a couple percent now year over year, not zero. So do I think it can go higher again next year? I believe we do. Historically, we might see consumer deposit growth at GDP to GDP plus type levels. Now, that would put you in the sort of 4% to 5% type of range. Maybe we don't get all the way there this year, but I mean, we just came off a year where we added 3%.
Alastair Borthwick: Well, Brian did a nice job of sort of setting the historical context. We've had an enormous pandemic bump followed by normalization back towards something that would be more just normal for consumers in terms of what they would have in their checking accounts. That has taken years. But what we're seeing right now, Saul, is if you look at the checking account balances, for example, they're up a couple percent now year over year, not zero. So do I think it can go higher again next year? I believe we do. Historically, we might see consumer deposit growth at GDP to GDP plus type levels. Now, that would put you in the sort of 4% to 5% type of range. Maybe we don't get all the way there this year, but I mean, we just came off a year where we added 3%.
Speaker #3: Brian did a nice job of sort of setting the historical context. We've had an enormous pandemic bump, followed by normalization back towards something that would be more just normal for consumers, in terms of what they would have in their checking accounts.
Speaker #3: That has taken years. But what we're seeing right now, Seoul, is if you look at the checking account balances, for example, they're up a couple percent now year over year.
Speaker #3: Not zero. So do I think it can go higher again next year? I believe we do. Historically, we might see consumer deposit growth at GDP to GDP-plus type levels.
Speaker #3: Now, that would put you in the sort of 4% to 5% type range. Maybe we don't get all the way there this year, but, I mean, we just came off a year where we added 3%.
Speaker #3: So we're obviously expecting and hoping for something slightly higher again in 2026 as we move to something more...
Brian Moynihan: We're obviously expecting and hoping for something slightly higher again in 2026, as we move to something more normal.
We're obviously expecting and hoping for something slightly higher again in 2026, as we move to something more normal.
Speaker #3: normal. Got it.
Mike Mayo: Got it. That's helpful. Thanks.
Saul Martinez: Got it. That's helpful. Thanks.
Speaker #2: That's helpful. Thanks. Thank you. At this time, there are no further questions in queue, and I'll turn the meeting back to Brian.
Operator: Thank you. At this time, there are no further questions in queue. I'll turn the meeting back to Brian Moynihan.
Operator: Thank you. At this time, there are no further questions in queue. I'll turn the meeting back to Brian Moynihan.
Speaker #2: Moynihan: Well, thank all of you.
John McDonald: Well, thank all of you for joining us. Just in summary, it was a good quarter and a good year. I want to thank our team at Bank of America for producing it. We've laid out at Investor Day the world-class franchise we have across all these businesses. You can see the performance continues to make good progress in 2025, both in revenue, profitability, and returns. The organic growth that I outlined earlier remains strong. The credit is very stable and very good quality. We continue to manage headcount and expense, as we talked about, to drive operating leverage. Thank you. We look forward to talking to you next quarter.
Brian Moynihan: Well, thank all of you for joining us. Just in summary, it was a good quarter and a good year. I want to thank our team at Bank of America for producing it. We've laid out at Investor Day the world-class franchise we have across all these businesses. You can see the performance continues to make good progress in 2025, both in revenue, profitability, and returns. The organic growth that I outlined earlier remains strong. The credit is very stable and very good quality. We continue to manage headcount and expense, as we talked about, to drive operating leverage. Thank you. We look forward to talking to you next quarter.
Speaker #1: Thank you for joining us. In summary, it was a good quarter and a good year. I want to thank our team at Bank of America for producing it.
Speaker #1: We've laid out at Investor Day the world-class franchise we have across all these businesses. And you can see the performance continues to make good progress in '25, both in revenue, profitability, and returns.
Speaker #1: The organic growth that I outlined earlier remains strong. The credit is very stable and very good quality. And we continue to manage headcount and expense, as we talked about, to drive operating leverage.
Speaker #1: So, thank you. We look forward to talking to you next quarter.
Operator: Thank you. This brings us to the end of today's meeting. We appreciate your time and participation. You may now disconnect.
Operator: Thank you. This brings us to the end of today's meeting. We appreciate your time and participation. You may now disconnect.
