Q3 2025 F&G Annuities & Life Inc Earnings Call

Speaker #4: Good morning . And welcome to Fmg's third Quarter 2020 Earnings Call . During today's presentation , all callers will be placed in a listen only mode .

Speaker #4: Following management's prepared remarks , the conference will be open for questions with instructions to follow at that time . I would now the call over to Lisa Foxworthy Parker , Senior Vice President , Investor Relations and External Relations .

Speaker #4: Please go ahead .

Speaker #5: Thanks . Operator and welcome , everyone . I'm joined today by Chris Blount , Chief Executive Officer and Conor Murphy President and Chief Financial Officer .

Speaker #5: Today's earnings call may include forward looking statements and projections under the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act , which do not guarantee future events or performance .

Speaker #5: We do not undertake any duty to revise or update such statements to reflect new information . Subsequent events or changes in strategy . Please refer to our most recent quarterly and annual reports and other SEC filings for

Speaker #5: details on important factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from those expressed or implied . This morning's discussion also includes like to turn non-GAAP measures , which management believes are relevant in assessing the financial performance of the business .

Speaker #5: non-GAAP measures have been reconciled to GAAP . Where required and in accordance with SEC rules within our earnings . Materials available on the company's investor website .

Speaker #5: Please note that today's call is being recorded and will be available for webcast replay . And with that , I'll hand the call over to Chris Blunt .

Speaker #5: Good morning , everyone .

Speaker #6: And thanks for joining our call . We delivered strong third quarter results with record AUM before flow reinsurance , fueled by one of our best sales quarters in history .

Speaker #6: The launch of our new reinsurance sidecar and strong performance across the business as we execute on our strategy and make continued progress toward our 2023 Investor Day targets, FMG is uniquely positioned in the industry with a profitable and growing $56 billion in-force block.

Speaker #6: We generate spread based earnings from fixed annuities and pension risk transfer , and we have multiple sources of fee based earnings with the sidecar in place alongside our flow reinsurance middle market life insurance and well-performing owned distribution portfolio .

Speaker #6: As our business grows , we're becoming a more fee based , higher margin and capital light business , leveraging our position as one of the industry's largest sellers of annuities and life insurance .

Speaker #6: We are balancing this with continuing to grow our spread based business , prioritizing pricing discipline and allocating capital to the highest return opportunities as we execute on our strategy .

Speaker #6: We expect both gross and net AUM to continue to grow . Reported a record $71.4 billion of AUM before Flo Reinsurance at the end of the third quarter , including retained assets under management of 56.6 billion compared to the third quarter of 2020 .

Speaker #6: For AUM , increased 14 and 8% , respectively , driven by net new business flows for the first nine months of the year .

Speaker #6: We generated 11 billion of gross sales . This reflects 6 billion of core sales , which include index annuities , indexed life and pension risk transfer , and 5 billion of opportunistic sales including Miga and funding agreements .

Speaker #6: Looking at the third quarter , we delivered one of our best sales quarters with $4.2 billion of gross sales and strength across all products and distribution channels .

Speaker #6: Core sales were half of the total at 2.2 billion , modestly above both the second quarter of 2025 and the third quarter of 2020 .

Speaker #6: For highlights for our core sales include indexed annuities of 1.7 billion in the quarter and 4.8 billion year to date . FIA is our largest contributor to indexed annuity sales , and with the launch of the Reinsurance Sidecar in August , we have started flowing a portion of our accumulation focused FIA sales during the quarter .

Speaker #6: Rila continues to be a modest but growing contributor to our sales as we are gaining momentum . IUL sales were over 40 million in the quarter and 137 million year to date , up 10% over the prior year to date period .

Speaker #6: As our life insurance solutions are meeting the needs of the underserved , multicultural , middle market and prh sales were more than 500 million in the quarter , including a multiple repeat client and 1.3 billion year to date in line with the prior year to date period .

Speaker #6: The Prh market continues to see a robust pipeline for mid-sized deals between 100 million to 500 million , where F competes well , and we're on track to achieve our targeted 1.5 to 2.5 billion of prh sales for the full year .

Speaker #6: Opportunistic sales were 2 billion in the third quarter , with over 1 billion of funding agreements and nearly 1 billion of sales . Opportunistic sales volumes will fluctuate quarter to quarter depending on economics and market opportunity .

Speaker #6: Here's a few details . We took advantage of an attractive market window and executed a record $800 million . Farben issuance in the third quarter .

Speaker #6: And expanded our high quality investor base , bringing our third quarter and year to date funding agreement placements to 1,000,000,001.6 billion , respectively .

Speaker #6: Coming off a record second quarter , mega sales were nearly 1 billion in the third quarter and 3.4 billion year to date . We optimized our level of flow reinsurance in line with our capital targets by dynamically adjusting omega volumes up and down as market economics change , while short term interest rates declined following the recent fed cuts .

Speaker #6: The shape of the yield curve has a bigger impact on our business . We do not have significant exposure to changes in short term interest rates , as we have hedged a majority of our floating rate portfolio to lock in higher rates over the past couple of years .

Speaker #6: Our floating rate assets are now only 2.4 billion , or 5% of our total portfolio , net of hedging . We expect continued strong demand for retirement savings products , including a growing demand for annuities by consumers and financial advisors for retirement security .

Speaker #6: Demographic trends remain a powerful secular driver as the growing retirement population seeks guaranteed lifetime income streams and the continued macroeconomic volatility increases the relative attractiveness of fixed annuity products for consumers that want guaranteed tax deferred growth and principal protection .

Speaker #6: Next , turning to the investment portfolio . Our portfolio is diversified , well positioned and high quality with 96% of fixed maturities being investment grade credit related impairments have remained low and stable , averaging six basis points over the past five years .

Speaker #6: Through the first nine months of the year . Credit related impairments remained below our pricing , given broader market concerns around credit exposure to bank loans .

Speaker #6: We don't have any direct holdings in First Brands , Tricolor or Primo , lend and our exposure to the subprime auto and regional bank sectors was a modest 20,000,013 million , respectively .

Speaker #6: As of September 30th . Our fixed income yield of 4.68% increased ten basis points over the sequential quarter , primarily driven by a prospective floating rate asset model refinement .

Speaker #6: As a reminder , our fixed income yield excludes alternative investment income as well as variable investment income . Looking at our alternative investment portfolio , we saw improvement in our annualized return at 7% in the quarter , up from 6% in the sequential quarter .

Speaker #6: And as compared to our 10% long term expected return , our alternative investment portfolio is comprise 30% of alt LPs , with the remainder more debt .

Speaker #6: Like in nature . Next , turning to variable investment income . We reported $24 million of pre-tax prepay income in the quarter , which was above our run rate expectation as compared to 26 million in the prior year quarter .

Speaker #6: And 6 million at the sequential quarter . As far as asset managers go , we really think we have the best of both worlds in terms of our competitive positioning and flexibility .

Speaker #6: This month marks that we are eight years into our strong and seasoned relationship with a world class manager in Blackstone , and we have the flexibility to work with other asset managers , whether for flow reinsurance or specialty asset classes , to complement Blackstone's capabilities .

Speaker #6: In summary , FNCS results through the first nine months of the year have positioned us well for a strong finish for the remainder of 2025 .

Speaker #6: We are executing on our strategy , leveraging the strength of our distribution partners to continue to grow our spread based business alongside our growing sources of fee based , higher margin and capital light earnings through our flow reinsurance , middle market life insurance and owned distribution strategies .

Speaker #6: I'm excited about the future and our ability to continue to further expand our return on equity to deliver long-term shareholder value. Let me now turn the call over to Conor to provide further details on F&G's third quarter highlights.

Speaker #7: Thank you . Chris . I'd like to start by thanking our employees for their efforts in delivering an all around strong quarter . Our solid foundation and focused execution continue to drive results across the business .

Speaker #7: Looking at our third quarter results , more closely on a reported basis , adjusted net earnings were 165 million , or $1.22 per share , in the third quarter .

Speaker #7: Alternative investment income was 67 million , or $0.48 per share , below management's long term expected return for the quarter . Adjusted net earnings included two significant items a 10 million , or $0.07 per share , benefit from a tax valuation allowance release , as well as 4 million or $0.03 per share from an actuarial reserve release .

Speaker #7: Additionally , our third quarter adjusted net earnings benefited by approximately 25 million . As a result of two other items in the quarter strong prepayment fees , as well as a lower effective tax rate .

Speaker #7: We completed our annual actuarial assumption review in the third quarter . As a result , amortization expense was approximately 6 million after tax higher in the third quarter , and we expect higher amortization over the next year with approximately 5 million after tax in the fourth quarter .

Speaker #7: Incrementally diminishing through the first half of 2026. Overall, as compared to the prior year quarter, third quarter adjusted net earnings reflect asset growth.

Speaker #7: Growing fees from accretive flow reinsurance steady owned distribution margin and operating expense discipline , driving scale benefit . Our results have generated sustainable returns as reported adjusted ROA on a last 12 month basis was 92 basis points , including short term fluctuations from alternative investment income .

Speaker #7: This is stable and in line with the last 12 month periods for the prior year , and sequential quarters of 95 and 92 basis points , respectively .

Speaker #7: All else equal , we expect this is indicative of our current run rate for adjusted ROA on a reported basis . Our adjusted ROA reflects meaningful contributions from our fee based flow reinsurance and owned distribution strategies .

Speaker #7: As reported , our adjusted return on equity , excluding Aoci , was 8.8% in line with the sequential quarter . Our fee income from accretive flow reinsurance has grown to 41 million in the first nine months , up 46% .

Speaker #7: Over 28 million in the first nine months of 2024 . F launched its flow reinsurance strategy in 2020 , which builds on our core competencies , enables us to scale in an accretive and capital efficient manner and produces diversifying fee income , which generates strong cash flows .

Speaker #7: Our flow reinsurance strategy , augmented by the new reinsurance sidecar , effective August 1st , provides third party capital for a portion of Fang's FIA and Miga sales .

Speaker #7: Today , we expect to reinsure the vast majority of Miga sales , depending on economics . As discussed on last quarter's call , the economics for FIA sales are relatively more attractive , with the sidecar , and we expect we will evolve toward 50 over 50 retained versus flow for FIA sales .

Speaker #7: Importantly , we will continue to grow retained AUM as we balance retaining business versus optimizing flow reinsurance and preserving capital flexibility . Our own distribution portfolio is performing well and creating value .

Speaker #7: We have invested nearly 700 million in our four owned distribution investments , and expect to generate over 80 million of EBITDA for the full year 2025 .

Speaker #7: Our holdings are diversified by product and market and reflect growing businesses with strong leadership. Two of our holdings are life IMOs that produce about 50% of FNCS IUL sales.

Speaker #7: As the majority of their sales mix . The other two holdings are annuity imos that produce approximately 15% of FNCS annuity sales . As the minority of their sales mix in the future , we have plenty of opportunity to expand the value of owned distribution through our existing holdings , and as independent agent distribution continues to consolidate in the industry .

Speaker #7: We expect to be selective and expanding to additional strategic partners . Being thoughtful about where it makes sense and where it's the right fit with our long standing relationships , we are benefiting from increased scale as our ratio of operating expense to AUM before flow reinsurance has decreased to 52 basis points in the quarter , down from 62 basis points in the third quarter of 2020 .

Speaker #7: For , we expect , continued improvement in our operating expense ratio as a result of the expense actions we took earlier this year , moving from 60 basis points at year end 2024 .

Speaker #7: To approximately 50 basis points by year end 2025 . Further , we see the potential to decrease by an additional one basis point per quarter on average in 2026 .

Speaker #7: Two years in, and we have made significant progress toward the medium-term financial targets we laid out at our October 23rd Investor Day: to grow AUM by 50% and expand adjusted ROA excluding significant items to 133 to 155 basis points.

Speaker #7: Increase adjusted ROE excluding Aoci and significant items to 13 to 14% and expand our multiple . We are well positioned to deliver on our targets as we move further toward a more fee based , higher margin and less capital intensive business model .

Speaker #7: Leveraging our position as one of the industry's largest distributors of annuities and life insurance . This concludes our prepared remarks , and let me now turn the call back to our operator for questions .

Speaker #4: Thank you . Before opening for questions , I'd like to turn it back over to Chris Blunt for some additional remarks .

Speaker #8: Thanks . Operator . Early this morning , we issued a press release with FNF , our majority owner , announcing the FNF Board of directors has approved a change in FNF equity ownership stake in F and G .

Speaker #8: FNF plans to distribute approximately 12% of the outstanding shares of FNCS common stock to FNF shareholders following the distribution , FNF will retain control and majority ownership of the 70% of the outstanding shares of F and G .

Speaker #8: This will increase Fmg's public float from approximately 18% today to approximately 30% after the distribution . Strengthening our positioning within the equity markets and facilitating greater institutional ownership .

Speaker #8: Operator: Please open the call now for questions.

Speaker #4: Ladies and gentlemen , if you would like to ask a question , please press Star One on your telephone keypad and the confirmation will indicate your line is in the question queue .

Speaker #4: You may press star two . If you would like to remove your question from the queue for participants using speaker equipment , it may be necessary to pick up your handset before pressing the star key's .

Speaker #4: And our first question comes from the line of Wes Carmichael with Autonomous Research . Please proceed .

Speaker #9: Hey . Good morning and thank you . First question I had . Maybe it's a bit broader of a question on capital allocation , but as I think about the stock , it's been under a little bit of pressure this year , year to date .

Speaker #9: And I know you raised some growth equity earlier in the year . Now you have the sidecar . So I'm just wondering how you're thinking about prioritizing capital deployment .

Speaker #9: And how are you thinking about share buybacks relative to things like allocation to own distribution or even just faster organic growth ?

Speaker #8: Sure . Thanks , Wes . It's Chris . I'll start . I know Conor will have some views here as well . I would say right now , obviously we want to continue to grow our fixed indexed annuity business .

Speaker #8: That's that's core for us . And so that's always going to be fairly high on the list . Owned distribution is attractive . And where we've got opportunities to either potentially add a platform .

Speaker #8: Although we want to be selective , there or add some capital to help some of our existing ownership stake scale . That's a very high in the list index .

Speaker #8: Universal life is a high priority for us , and continuing to grow that . Although it's not a large consumer of capital right now , you probably also noticed we increased the dividend by 13.6% .

Speaker #8: So we're trying to share some of the new capital light model with our with our shareholders . Right away . I would say right now buybacks would probably be a pretty low priority for us just because obviously the distribution of shares by FNF is to try to help us increase our float , not not take float out of the market , but I don't know .

Speaker #10: It's a little bit of a reiteration . Thanks , Wes . We're seeing very attractive opportunities for our core products . Again , the iual , the FIA , the Rila and the PRT .

Speaker #10: We've been we've been continue to be to be active in the PRT market as well . And and expect that momentum across all of that to continue in the near term .

Speaker #10: So we're very comfortable . We've we've plenty plenty of capacity from a capital perspective to continue to focus on those . The opportunistic will be just that .

Speaker #10: It was a pretty active quarter this quarter . But you know , we're watching we're migrant returns are in the near term . And we will we will write as much or as little there , depending on the economic opportunity .

Speaker #10: And yet we continue to really , really like the own distribution expansion opportunity as well .

Speaker #9: No thanks . And it makes sense on the on the float comments . Chris , the second question I had , I guess on variable investment income outside of the alternatives portfolio , I think that was pretty strong in the quarter , but I imagine that'll that'll bounce around a little bit quarter to quarter .

Speaker #9: But just maybe if you could think about a run rate level of . Non alt VII going forward , is there any help you can give us on that .

Speaker #10: Yeah , I'll give you a sense . So you're right . We were higher this quarter . I think we were in the 24 million pre-tax range .

Speaker #10: And I think our expectation near term you're always going to have an element of this . Our expectation is probably , you know , high single digits , you know , ten ish roughly , maybe a little less .

Speaker #10: But it'll it'll move around a little bit . And that's fine . But they were certainly a little bit higher , which is why we called them out in the , in the quarter .

Speaker #9: Yeah . Thanks , Conor . That's helpful . From a modeling perspective . And just maybe one , one final one just on the investment portfolio , I guess in a in recent weeks , there's been more focus on , I guess , private letter rated assets and these private structures , particularly those that are rated by Egan-jones .

Speaker #9: I'm just wondering if there's any color you can provide on that exposure for FMG . Maybe as a percentage of the portfolio , and maybe if you would disagree with the spirit of these recent articles in the media on private credit .

Speaker #8: Yeah , maybe doing reverse order . I think look , everyone's concerned about the same things on the private credit space . So there's been some kind of big , I would say , bold statements made on both sides of the argument here .

Speaker #8: I think the only thing we can speak to specifically is our own portfolio , which we're feeling quite comfortable with with respect to Egan-jones .

Speaker #8: Yeah , I think like a lot of firms , we're increasingly utilizing two different agencies . Our the number of securities or loans that we have that are rated by Egan-jones is quite small , like quite small .

Speaker #8: And we're trying as a general rule , to get two agencies and wherever possible , one of what you would call the big three to rate every single deal , not just because of the backdrop or concerns about , you know , is any one rating , any one rating reliable , so to speak .

Speaker #8: But also , you know , you have turnover . We have an analyst leave . And so it's always better to have two where you can have that .

Speaker #8: So I think we've made a ton of progress , a ton of progress . There .

Speaker #9: Thank you .

Speaker #4: The next question comes from the line of Joel Hurwitz with Dowling and Partners. Please proceed.

Speaker #11: Hey good morning . A couple of questions on the alternatives . Performance . First , can you provide some color on the moving pieces of the 67 million of unfavorable alts in the quarter ?

Speaker #11: And I guess how much of that was just the LPs versus that direct lending ? And then what are the targeted returns on the different pieces that fall in that $10.5 billion bucket of alternative assets ?

Speaker #10: Yeah , I'll give you a sense . I'm not sure . We give a complete and full breakdown , but I kind of know what you're going after .

Speaker #10: And I would say this from a an expectation of where we came out . We were pretty close on the , the whole loan and direct lending parts .

Speaker #10: And I think , you know , we talk about a about a $10 billion portfolio in total , of which about three of it is the LP .

Speaker #10: So the LPs had a stronger performance and I would I would yeah , I would say that the , the increased performance was broadly there as well .

Speaker #10: But they are also in the main , the area that are still falling short of the long term expectation . We were pretty much there or thereabouts on the the whole loans and on the direct lending side .

Speaker #10: .

Speaker #8: And Joel , as you know , some of the LPs , particularly on the PE funds , you get a lot of that information comes with a lag .

Speaker #8: So that's that's part of the issue too . So obviously the sense is that activity is picking up . Hopefully that's that's true in that persists .

Speaker #11: Okay . I guess any color on what what the targeted return is on on the LPs . I , I'm guessing it's higher than the 10% .

Speaker #11: But can can you give that .

Speaker #10: Yeah . I mean look to get to an average of ten . Yeah I would say that's the case modestly , but it's the there isn't a wide range when you consider all of the components .

Speaker #10: But on the margin , not as a true statement . Correct .

Speaker #11: Okay . And then Connor , just on on the base yield jump of ten basis points , you guys mentioned a floating rate refinement .

Speaker #11: Just just what what exactly was that . And and how much of the ten basis point quarter over quarter increase was , was that .

Speaker #10: Yeah I'm not sure if it was ten basis points . I thought it was probably closer to $10 million . And maybe 3 or 4 basis points in terms of the what I would call the core fixed income impact .

Speaker #10: But yeah , we did have a little bit of a change . We . We had a change . We were solely using the forward curve .

Speaker #10: And now we have a sort of a decision tree methodology where anything that's like a placeholder or if it's not hedged or if it's an fab , an etc.

Speaker #10: , you know , it's it's short , it's spot rate , anything that's longer term is forward . So we were really calling out the fact that it was suggesting that the fixed income yield had ticked up a few points .

Speaker #10: Honestly , I think the fixed income yield in the quarter oh , actually , no , I apologize . I think it was ten basis points .

Speaker #10: I think the fixed income yield in the quarter was pretty flat quarter over quarter . If you really drilled into the core components .

Speaker #11: Gotcha . Thank you .

Speaker #4: As a reminder, if you would like to ask a question, please press star one on your telephone keypad. And the next question comes from the line of Mark Hughes with Truist Securities.

Speaker #4: Please proceed .

Speaker #12: Yeah . Thank you . Good morning . Connor , I think you had talked about kind of a all else equal , a good run rate ROA for the business on an adjusted basis .

Speaker #12: What would that number look like ?

Speaker #10: I think we've been that's on an adjusted basis . We've been in the like kind of high 100 and 20s right around that lower end .

Speaker #10: Remember we had this the target that we put out a couple of years ago with the Investor Day to get into the one , you know , the one 30 to 150 range .

Speaker #10: And we're right around that bottom end of that range currently. So, over the last 12 months, on an adjusted basis.

Speaker #10: Yeah , I think we're probably around that . 129 130 Mark .

Speaker #12: Okay . And then maybe a two part question on the relays , just looking at the Q3 stats out of Limra . They've got relays up 20% , fire's down a little bit .

Speaker #12: Just sort of curious . Any observations on that dynamic . What's causing it is that likely to persist . And then just any update on your progress in the Rila product .

Speaker #8: Yeah . Mark , this is Chris . I'd say a couple things . I think what's what's driving it . You know , probably a little bit as rates have come down a bit and you know , cap rates lower on fixed product markets have obviously been a performing quite well equity markets .

Speaker #8: And so yeah , you're always going to see every once in a while some sentiment shift between reloads and fire's , which is why we like the product .

Speaker #8: We want to have it in our portfolio . I would say as we've acknowledged before , it's taken longer to get on platforms , but once we're on platforms , we're getting good flows and good adoption from advisors .

Speaker #8: So yeah , it's continuing to grow . It's continuing to grow at a healthy clip . Just off of a small base . And again , given the number of opportunities that we have in fire's particularly FIAs , that we can utilize the sidecar for , that's been pretty high on our list .

Speaker #8: So we haven't felt particularly constrained by the growth of it , but it's a strategic product for us . And , you know , we want to continue to grow it over time .

Speaker #12: Very good . Maybe another two parter . The 80 million in EBITDA and owned distribution . How did that compare to the prior year ?

Speaker #12: And then are you seeing much private equity activity there ? Is that competition for other deals ? How does that stand now ?

Speaker #8: Yeah . So the the EBITDA number , I think a couple quarters ago we were maybe projecting about 85 million . I'd say it's down a little bit , but honestly , every single month it's going to bounce around by a little bit .

Speaker #8: I would just say the portfolio's performing really well . Like ahead of our expectations . So we feel great about that . In terms of the growth rate going forward .

Speaker #8: So that's been , I would say , pretty terrific in terms of activity . I would say it's the same as it has been , you know , there's , you know , every platform that we purchased , there was private equity competition .

Speaker #8: Either they had turned down one of the roll up players or had offers from the roll up players . So I don't think our our competitive positioning and how we position ourselves relative to them has changed .

Speaker #8: So yeah, we're still quite optimistic about it.

Speaker #12: Appreciate it . Thank you .

Speaker #4: The next question comes from the line of Alex Scott with Barclays . Please proceed .

Speaker #13: Hey good morning . First one for you is just more of a broad question around the competitive landscape . And and maybe if you could comment both on the liability side , but but also even on the asset side and just , you know , how you're viewing competition for loan origination and so forth .

Speaker #10: Let me start on the on the liability side again , back to the core versus the opportunistic . I think we're feeling comfortable near term .

Speaker #10: And by near term, I'm kind of giving you, you know, the few months out as we kind of look into momentum heading into Q4 and where the markets are currently. I'd say it's okay in the FIA space.

Speaker #10: It's it's definitely competitive , but it's I think it's also reasoned , reasonable . That's true of Rila and IUL as well . From a pre perspective , I would say that still , it's fairly active .

Speaker #10: That generally is a fair amount of activity in the fourth quarter of every year . And I think the environment is still conducive to that .

Speaker #10: A little hard to predict that too far out. But I think in terms of the volume and the pricing in the PRT space currently in that space that we play in, the sort of $100 million to $600 million, upwards to $1 billion space is pretty good as well.

Speaker #10: I think near term , from a micro point of view . And I alluded to this on an earlier answer as well . That's that's tighter .

Speaker #10: I would think that this is again , back to the opportunistic element of it . I would say near term , the appetite for that probably wanes a little bit compared with the other opportunities that we're seeing out there .

Speaker #8: Yeah . And on the sort of credit origination side , which is an important engine right from a competitiveness , obviously that is tighter .

Speaker #8: There's more competition for deals for sure , but the market is just huge . It continues to expand in terms of opportunities . So you know , we've been able to find our spots probably takes a little bit longer to get some premiums invested , particularly in the private credit area .

Speaker #8: But yeah, I would agree with Connor's assessment: tighter in spots. But overall, still pretty attractive.

Speaker #13: Got it all helpful . Second one I have for you is just on the the hedging of short term interest rates . Could you help us think through like how that actually flows through earnings .

Speaker #13: Like is there a lag . Is it amortized ? I mean , was there an outsized impact maybe this quarter from rates coming down at the short end of the curve ?

Speaker #13: I just I'm not as familiar with how that would flow into adjusted earnings .

Speaker #10: Yeah I don't know that there's anything really significant . I mean , I think , you know , the overarching perspective really for us , it's just a we have a floating rate component to the portfolio that's not on to .

Speaker #10: And I think it's time to less than $2.5 million or 5% of the portfolio .

Speaker #8: But yeah . And and you know , you always want some floaters in there , right . Because when great opportunities come up , this is this is stuff that , you know , often easiest to move and reposition into something , something better .

Speaker #8: And yeah , I'm not you know , we'll follow up with you on that one . But I don't think there's any meaningful timing lags due to the hedging .

Speaker #13: Okay . And nothing like nothing notable in this quarter in terms of like having a derivative gain flow through or something like that .

Speaker #8: No . And again , the methodology change was really just trying to be more precise . Right . Because we use floaters in different ways .

Speaker #8: Right . There's there's some that are , you know , defeating a longer term , you know , maybe or call it a five year liability that are some that are really placeholder assets as a cash surrogate .

Speaker #8: And so it was just really trying to make sure that when people looked at movements and interest rates tied to the portfolio results, we're seeing a little bit better.

Speaker #10: That's exactly right . I mean , yeah , just to underscore that , it's really just it tied to the purpose of the the purpose of the use of the asset .

Speaker #10: So it really was it was modest . The reason we highlighted it at all is we were really looking to illustrate that from a core fixed income perspective , because there's so , so much focus on the ROA that it was a I mean , it's a but it was a flat quarter .

Speaker #10: It remained the same . We weren't trying to suggest that it had gone higher because of anything we had done in the portfolio .

Speaker #10: That's why we called it out.

Speaker #13: Understood . Okay . All right . Thank you .

Speaker #4: The next question will come again from the line of Wes Carmichael with Autonomous Research . Please proceed .

Speaker #9: Hey , thanks for taking my follow ups . I just had a couple more for you , but one on on operating leverage .

Speaker #9: If I look at the operating expense line , that's that's declined over the past couple of quarters . And , you know , I think that's a good development .

Speaker #9: I imagine part of that's related to the actions you took earlier in the year . But how are you thinking about that going forward ?

Speaker #9: Is there more opportunity for reducing costs , or should we just think about the spend going to increase less than the pace of AUM going forward ?

Speaker #10: Yeah , I think it's the latter . Thank you . And I met some of these comments earlier as well from our perspective , bringing the cost basis as a percentage of AUM down from 60 to 50 basis points .

Speaker #10: So that is essentially we we got to that track with the with the efforts in the second quarter . My expectation is that it'll take down from 50 to 46 roughly over the course of next year .

Speaker #10: But I would say that's by maintaining , broadly speaking , you know , sort of inflation aside , maintaining where we are now and continuing to grow , I think after that , it will continue to come down .

Speaker #10: But I think the pace will be more modest. I'm guessing maybe like half a basis point a quarter, you know, so by 2027, maybe another two basis points after for this year.

Speaker #10: But that's so you could view it as a continuously improving expense ratio rather than a declining level of core expenses .

Speaker #9: Got it . That's helpful . Thanks , Connor . And in just the last one , I guess on on on the press release with FNF spinning some of the F and G stock to FNF shareholders , I guess my my reaction and maybe some investors was it's a pretty modest number relative to maybe actions they could have taken , I just wondered if you had any comments on that from your perspective .

Speaker #8: Yeah , I mean , I guess it isn't . It isn't in the sense that if you looked at the amount of free float , it's a very meaningful increase in free float .

Speaker #8: And I think from a dollar perspective , don't don't quote me , but I think this gets us over a billion now of of free float .

Speaker #8: And so we'd heard from a number of particularly long only investors who said , boy , if you had a bit more float , you know , we'd really like to to take a position .

Speaker #8: So, I think over time it's going to prove to be quite meaningful for us from that perspective. As to the amount, it was as simple as FNF really likes F, and G sees a lot of promise in our long-term future.

Speaker #8: And so there was a lot of speculation of , oh , it's been five years , they're going to spin the whole thing out and they clearly didn't want to do that .

Speaker #8: And so it was really how much can we spin out to help with the free float while retaining a large percentage . So we took it as a great vote of confidence in where we are .

Speaker #8: Our capital light strategy and the earnings we can drive going forward . So I think it's a really positive development . I think for both shareholder bases , frankly .

Speaker #9: Gotcha . Thanks , Chris .

Speaker #4: Thank you . This will conclude our question and answer session . And I'd like to turn the call back to Chris Blunt for closing remarks .

Speaker #8: Thanks again to everyone for joining our call this morning . We had a really strong third quarter and have good momentum heading into the end of the year .

Speaker #8: I'm excited about the future and our ability to deliver strong returns for the shareholders of F and G in the years ahead . We appreciate your interest in F and G and look forward to updating you on our fourth quarter earnings call .