Q3 2025 Baldwin Insurance Group Earnings Call
Speaker #3: Ladies and gentlemen , greetings and welcome to the Baldwin Group . Third quarter , 2020 Earnings Call . At this time , all participants are in the listen only mode .
Speaker #3: A brief question and answer session will follow the formal presentation . If anyone should require operator assistance during the conference , please press star and Zero on your telephone keypad .
Speaker #3: As a reminder , this conference is being recorded . It is now my pleasure to introduce your host , Bonnie Bishop Executive Director , Investor Relations .
Speaker #3: Please go ahead .
Speaker #4: Thank you . Welcome to the Baldwin Group's third quarter 2020 earnings call . Today's call is being recorded . Third quarter financial results .
Speaker #4: Supplemental information and Form 10-q were issued earlier this afternoon and are available on the company's website at . IRA . Com . Please note that remarks made today may include forward looking statements subject to various assumptions , risks and uncertainties , including , for example , our strategy with respect to our capital allocation in the future .
Speaker #4: The company's actual results may differ materially from those contemplated by such statements . For more detailed discussion , please refer to the note regarding forward looking statements in the company's earnings release and our most recent form 10-q .
Speaker #4: Both of which are available on the Baldwin website . During the call today , the company may also discuss certain non-GAAP financial measures .
Speaker #4: For more detailed discussion of these non-GAAP financial measures and historical reconciliation to the most closely comparable GAAP measures , please refer to the company's earnings release and supplemental information , both of which have been posted on the website at Trevor Baldwin .
Speaker #4: Com . I will now turn the call over to Trevor Baldwin chief Executive Officer of the Baldwin Group .
Speaker #5: Good afternoon , and thank you for joining us to discuss our third quarter results reported earlier today . I'm joined by Brad Hale , Chief Financial Officer and Bonnie Bishop executive director of Investor Relations .
Speaker #5: We generated strong overall results in the third quarter despite a dynamic operating environment and the expected persistence of certain
Speaker #5: last quarter . Organic revenue growth in the quarter was 5% , bringing our year to date organic revenue company's growth to 9% . Adjusted EBITDA was flat year over year , bringing our year to date adjusted EBITDA growth to 9% .
Speaker #5: Adjusted EBITDA margin and adjusted diluted earnings per share contracted slightly in the quarter on a year to date basis . Adjusted EBITDA margin is roughly flat year over year , and adjusted diluted earnings per share has grown 11% year over year .
Speaker #5: We previously discussed two temporary items that we expected to have a finite impact on our results over the near term . First , a procedural accounting change in our insurance advisory Solutions segment impacting timing of when we recognize commission revenues .
Speaker #5: And second , the reduced commission from QBE that went effective on May 1st on the builder sourced homeowners book of business . We are rolling into our recently formed reciprocal exchange Bri .
Speaker #5: As a reminder, these are temporary headwinds persisting through the first half of 2026, which then reverse into tailwinds, as these are not revenues that are lost, just deferred relative to when they will be recognized in our P&L.
Speaker #5: Adjusting for these items , total commissions and fees , organic revenue growth in Q3 would have been 10% in total . Overall organic revenue growth would have been 9% , bringing the year to date totals for both metrics to 11% and insurance advisory solutions .
Speaker #5: Overall organic revenue growth was flat compared to the third quarter of 2020. After removing the impact of the procedural accounting change, organic revenue growth was 4%.
Speaker #5: And organic growth on core commissions and fees was 6% . Sales velocity remained top decile at 20% in the third quarter , bringing year to date sales velocity to 19% .
Speaker #5: Highlighting our consistent ability to take , share and win new business . In fact , as we sit here today , backlog of one but not yet booked new business that should bind in the first half of 2026 is sitting at a historic high for our firm , including several seven figure commission and fee client wins from large global competitors .
Speaker #5: Highlighting the demand for our innovative advice and solutions in the marketplace and the growing power and impact of our integrated operating platform . We are consistently performing in the top decile for new business generation in our industry .
Speaker #5: Based on recent industry data showing the median at 12.2% and the top quartile at 15.9% , reinforcing the effectiveness of our go to market strategy and the positive regard clients and prospects have for our teams and the solutions we are delivering .
Speaker #5: The impact of rate and exposure or renewal premium change was a meaningful headwind our at minus five point 7% , reflective of the continued client caution tied to macro uncertainty and reduction in large cat exposed coastal property pricing , partially offset by ongoing rate action in certain litigation .
Speaker #5: Exposed casualty lines of business from where we sit today . We expect the third quarter renewal premium change , headwind reflects a floor going forward from which we will see incremental improvement over the coming quarters .
Speaker #5: However , we don't anticipate this fully reverses into a tailwind in the near term , highlighting the importance of our industry leading new business generation capabilities to drive sustainable growth over time in our underwriting capacity and technology solutions segment , organic revenue growth came in at 16% , driven by continued strength in our multifamily portfolio , which grew commissions and fees at 16% .
Speaker #5: And our commercial umbrella portfolio , which grew organic revenue 15% . As discussed last quarter , we continued to maintain underwriting discipline in our ONS homeowners book in a rapidly softening property environment , which was a 400 basis point drag on Uct's organic growth in the quarter .
Speaker #5: In July , we began migrating renewals of the builder book away from QBE into the reciprocal insurance exchange . We launched earlier this year , which thus far is performing in line to slightly better than expectations .
Speaker #5: Additionally , following the transaction , we announced with Hippo , we have begun work with the Hippo and Spinnaker teams on a second builder .
Speaker #5: Homeowners insurance program , which we expect to launch next year . Over time , we expect it will materially increase our capture rate of Westwood's builder business into proprietary MSI programs , which sits at around a 30% capture rate today .
Speaker #5: This should unlock a meaningful growth opportunity for our MGA and expand vital insurance capacity for our builder partners and their home buyer customers in our Main Street Insurance Solutions segment .
Speaker #5: Organic revenue growth was slightly negative , driven by the one time commission reset on the QBE builder book and continued elevated attrition in our Medicare business due to the broader managed care marketplace disruption .
Speaker #5: Removing the impact of the one time commission reset on the QBE builder book . Overall organic revenue growth was 8% . As a reminder , this impact will persist until April of 2026 , after which it turns into a multiyear tailwind as the commission reduction .
Speaker #5: We are absorbing today reverses back into fee revenues for our attorney and fact vehicle , which manages the reciprocal exchange . I want to take a minute to talk about the exciting momentum we are seeing across our embedded home insurance businesses .
Speaker #5: As I mentioned last quarter in December , we launched our new technology platform and digital experience to support the seamless sale of home insurance at point of mortgage origination and home sale .
Speaker #5: This quarter , our embedded mortgage and real estate business went live with three new mortgage and real estate channel partners , bringing the total channel partners live on our platform to ten .
Speaker #5: Included in the partners who went live on our platform in Q3 was a top 20 mortgage originator who went live in mid-August and has shown very promising proof points of success .
Speaker #5: In our second week post . Go live . We sold over 150% of the volume achieved by their previous insurance partner and their best day ever over a two year period .
Speaker #5: And we have maintained those elevated volumes . These results are enabled by our proprietary technology platform that powers our digital insurance buying experience and the seamless nature of this process in the mortgage and real estate transaction flows .
Speaker #5: In fact , when a potential homeowner engages through our digital experience , we bind the home insurance policy for them at a rate that is three and a half times what is achieved through non channels .
Speaker #5: The power of our technology platform and digital agent experience includes AI powered real time agent advice , which is driving tremendous momentum and conversion rates and presents opportunity for margin expansion in the medium to long term .
Speaker #5: We remain bullish on the growth prospects of this business as we continue to make progress towards simplifying the home ownership journey through our embedded technology .
Speaker #5: Our pipeline of new embedded partners in this channel is as strong as we have seen , yet with our implementation backlog well into 2026 , as we mentioned last quarter , we completed the acquisition of Hippo's home builder distribution network in July .
Speaker #5: We are now live in facilitating the home insurance process for 20 of the top 25 homebuilders across the country. Our builder partners account for 57% of all new homes built in the U.S., and 93% of the homes built by the top 25 builders in the U.S.
Speaker #5: In aggregate, the partners in our combined embedded home insurance strategies drove over 500,000 home and mortgage closings in 2024, which accounts for roughly 12% of homes sold in the U.S. annually, positioning us as the leading embedded personal lines distribution platform in the $500 billion premium U.S. Personal Lines market.
Speaker #5: Before I turn it over to Brad to provide additional details on our Q3 financial performance , I want to share a strategic update that marks a pivotal moment in our evolution .
Speaker #5: Today , we're announcing our three B30 catalyst program , a three year transformation program launched during the third quarter of 2025 . Catalyst is designed to accelerate the infusion of automation , business process optimization and artificial intelligence to transform and elevate our workforce .
Speaker #5: Building on our two foundational pillars of talent and technology for building the broker of the future and meeting our aspirational goal of three B30 .
Speaker #5: This initiative is designed not only to elevate the work and impact our colleagues are delivering on a daily basis , but to unlock new avenues for growth by aligning our workforce and technology investments with the demands of a rapidly changing market .
Speaker #5: We are positioning ourselves to accelerate innovation across our client engagement model and insurance product offerings, enhance client and colleague experience through smarter, more agile client service delivery.
Speaker #5: Empower our teams to elevate their focus on high impact growth driving activities and enable enhanced real time decision making by streamlining processes , data and systems .
Speaker #5: We anticipate a cumulative transformation charge of approximately $40 million by the end of 2028, with cumulative savings over the same period of approximately $50 million.
Speaker #5: And projected run rate annualized savings of 40 million by the end of 2028 . We expect savings to ramp over time with no material savings in 2025 , 3 to 5 million in savings in 2026 , and 10 to 15 million in 2027 .
Speaker #5: We expect charges of 15 million in each of 2026 and 2027 . The three B30 catalyst program is designed to accelerate our ability to capture operating leverage across our business .
Speaker #5: While simultaneously enhancing growth . Both organically and through M&A . Cash restructuring charges of approximately 40 million reflect the savings to cost ratio of roughly 1.25 times and are largely related to workforce transformation and technology implementation .
Speaker #5: The charges represent less than 10% of expected free cash flow over the next three years , and did not impact our expectation to deliver double digit free cash flow growth , driven by strong growth in revenue , operating income and working capital improvements .
Speaker #5: This is an important step forward for our firm , one that reflects our commitment to positioning ourselves for the rapidly evolving technology landscape .
Speaker #5: Further bolstering our status as a leading destination for our industry's top talent and accelerating our pace to fulfill our vision for the broker of the future .
Speaker #5: As we move forward , we remain focused on delivering long term value for our clients , colleagues and shareholders , driving growth and innovation , and expanding margins and free cash flow .
Speaker #5: In summary , we're pleased with our third quarter results in such a dynamic insurance market and macro operating environment . While we expect we will continue to face an insurance marketplace in transition , we are increasingly confident in our ability to deliver in 2026 and beyond .
Speaker #5: As evidenced by the strength of the underlying momentum in the business . We sincerely thank our clients for placing their trust in us to provide strategic guidance , expert insights and innovative solutions in an ever changing risk landscape .
Speaker #5: We also extend our deep appreciation to our colleagues for their steadfast dedication and tireless efforts in delivering meaningful results for our clients and valued insurance partners .
Speaker #5: With that , I'll turn it over to Brad , who will detail our financial results .
Speaker #6: Thanks , Trevor , and good afternoon , everyone . For the third quarter , we generated organic revenue growth of 5% and total revenue of 365.4 million .
Speaker #6: Looking at the segment level , organic revenue growth was flat in IAS , up 16% in Ucts and down 2% in EMIs . We recorded GAAP net loss for the third quarter of 30.2 million .
Speaker #6: Or GAAP diluted loss per share of $0.27 . Adjusted net income for the third quarter , which excludes share based compensation , amortization and other one time expenses , was 36.5 million , or $0.31 per diluted share .
Speaker #6: A table reconciling GAAP net income to adjusted net income can be found in our earnings release and our 10-q filed with the SEC .
Speaker #6: Adjusted EBITDA for the third quarter was roughly flat at 72.5 million , compared to 72.8 million in the prior year period . Adjusted EBITDA margin declined approximately 170 basis points year over year to 19.8% for the quarter , compared to 21.5% in the prior year period .
Speaker #6: Adjusted free cash flow for the third quarter was up 26% to 42 million , compared to 33 million in Q3 2020 . For the increase in adjusted free cash flow was driven by improved working capital , which we communicated would normalize in the back half of 2025 .
Speaker #6: We ended the quarter with net leverage at approximately 4.1 times , down from Q2 2025 , and remain on track to hit or exceed our goal of four times by the end of the year .
Speaker #6: On that topic , with the business entering this period of a positive inflection on our financial profile through improved free cash flow , reduced leverage and line of sight to achieve our goal of bringing leverage under four times and maintaining it there .
Speaker #6: Going forward, I want to take a minute to talk about capital allocation priorities. First, our highest and best use of capital is organic reinvestment in our business.
Speaker #6: Whether it is the technology , platforms we have built to support our leading embedded insurance franchise , continued investment in specialized insurance talent or ongoing investments in scaling our sales force .
Speaker #6: These investments drive our highest returns measured on both an internal rate of return and return on invested capital basis . We have ample opportunity to continue these investments at elevated returns with the governor on those investments being the margin accretion objectives we have outlined and remain committed to .
Speaker #6: Second is M&A , where we have proven over the past five years we can be disciplined allocators of capital to drive enhanced business results and strong financial returns .
Speaker #6: We are enthused by the quality of opportunities in our pipeline , and we plan to remain thoughtful relative to our capital allocation strategy , resulting in an M&A cadence that is more episodic in nature .
Speaker #6: Third , and a new leg of the stool for capital allocation at Baldwin , behind internal reinvestment and M&A . We are adding share repurchases .
Speaker #6: We believe this can be an important tool used opportunistically to deploy capital . When we see market dislocations that create compelling return opportunities for our shareholders .
Speaker #6: Consistent with the foregoing , based on discussions held with our Board of directors , once our net leverage is comfortably under four times , our board intends to authorize a share buyback plan of up to 200 million , subject to maintaining our long term leverage goals on the capital management front .
Speaker #6: In September , we announced the successful repricing of our term loan B to Sofr plus 250 basis points , a 50 basis points improvement on the spread or approximately $5 million of annual interest expense savings .
Speaker #6: We also entered into a floating to fixed interest rate swap agreement with a notional amount of 500 million , which exchanges one month sofr for a fixed rate of 3.244% .
Speaker #6: Moving to expectations for the fourth quarter , we expect revenue of 345 million to 355 million , and organic revenue growth in the mid-single digits .
Speaker #6: We anticipate adjusted EBITDA between 68,000,073 million and adjusted diluted EPs of $0.28 to $0.32 per share , consistent with prior years . We are also sharing a broad initial view of 2026 financial expectations .
Speaker #6: We preliminarily expect 2026 revenue in the 1.66 billion to 1.7 billion range . Organic growth in the high single digits . Adjusted EBITDA in the 380 million to 400 million range , and adjusted diluted earnings per share between $1.95 and $2.10 .
Speaker #6: This would result in a five year kegger for all of those metrics in the high teens to low 20s , percent . In addition , we expect double digit growth in operating free cash flow as we've previously indicated , we expect an acceleration of organic revenue growth in the back half 2026 .
Speaker #6: Once we lap the idiosyncratic headwinds discussed . In summary , we are pleased with the overall performance of the business year to date as we continue to navigate a dynamic operating environment .
Speaker #6: We continue to see incredibly strong internal fundamentals across all three of our segments and feel confident in our ability to generate durable, outsized results for shareholders.
Speaker #6: We will now take questions . Operator .
Speaker #3: Thank you . Ladies and gentlemen , we will now be conducting a question and answer session . If you would like to ask a question , please press star and one on your telephone keypad .
Speaker #3: A confirmation tone will indicate your line is in the question queue . You may press star and two . If you would like to remove your question from the queue .
Speaker #3: For participants using speaker equipment , it may be necessary to pick up your handset before pressing the star keys . Ladies and gentlemen , we will wait for a moment while we poll for questions .
Speaker #3: Our first question comes from Gregory Peters with Raymond James . Please go ahead .
Speaker #7: Oh , hey . Good afternoon . So I think I'd like to start with the the results in the IaaS segment . I you called out a couple things in your commentary .
Speaker #7: The flat organic . I think you said excluding the the revenue recognition change . I think you said organic was up 4% and then you talked about the sales velocity being up really strong .
Speaker #7: And I guess I'm what I'm trying to get at is I'm trying to reconcile what we hear from you quarter after quarter , which is really strong sales velocity and success in the sales velocity and trying to reconcile that with what we're seeing with the IAS organic numbers .
Speaker #7: And maybe that's , you know , maybe that the revenue recognition change is going to what what is the deciding factor here and what changes next year .
Speaker #7: I'm not sure , but I thought I'd just give you an opportunity to talk more about that .
Speaker #5: Yeah . Hey , Greg , it's Trevor . Good evening . So let's . I think , unpack a few points there . One , you know , again , sales velocity of 20% in the quarter , 19% year to date .
Speaker #5: Strong results . Something we're I think super pleased with top decile relative to what we see across the industry . And I think , you know strong confirmation around the value that clients and prospects are seeing from our teams and how they go to market .
Speaker #5: And a lot of confidence around that momentum . You heard me talk about , you know , the the largest backlog of of clients , one , but not yet booked , including some some very large clients from large global brokers .
Speaker #5: So the momentum there continues . You know , the second is , you know , the the accounting procedural change . We mentioned , which is about a $7 million headwind to revenue and $5 million headwind to EBITDA in the quarter .
Speaker #5: You know , of note , that's not revenue . That's gone . That's simply timing . As a reminder , we move from chewing up to cash receipt trends on a monthly basis to waiting until policy expiration .
Speaker #5: And so that's simply revenue and EBITDA . That be booked next year . Upon policy expirations . The the third is rate and exposure renewal .
Speaker #5: Premium change was a 5.7% headwind in the quarter , representing kind of a low point in our historical data as well as what we expect to be a floor going forward .
Speaker #5: You know , I anticipate that we will see that incrementally improve over the coming quarters . Before , you know , normalizing into a neutral , if not slight tailwind in the back half of next year .
Speaker #5: And as we unpack that data , you know , I think it's helpful to parse it a little bit as we look at our property and casualty business in is rate and exposure was about a 2.8% headwind .
Speaker #5: And you can think about that being probably about one third rate , two third just sluggish exposure . Pull through is as we continue to see client caution on the employee benefit side , it was about an 800 basis point headwind .
Speaker #5: And you can think about that largely being exposure driven as a result of a softer employment environment . What I would tell you is based on what we're seeing in health care cost trend , renewal dynamics , etc.
Speaker #5: , we expect that to normalize back up , you know , certainly by the beginning of 2026 , based on expected rate pull through as a result of elevated medical loss ratios that have been seen across the industry as you just step back broadly , you know , we're in a period of call it , you know , 12 to 18 months of renewal , premium change headwinds .
Speaker #5: We called that out on our last call where we expected this year to be a 2 to 3% headwind . We're sitting at 2.5% headwind year to date .
Speaker #5: And and I would expect that that's still a good number for the full year . As we think about the impact of that next year , I think that that headwind ebbs and and likely flattens out or reverses into a slight tailwind as you get into the back half of next year .
Speaker #5: As we begin lapping some of these periods of elevated rate pullback , particularly in large cat exposed property . So we feel really good about the underlying fundamentals in the Is business .
Speaker #5: We feel good about client retention. We feel really good about new business wins and the momentum that continues to build there.
Speaker #5: And we expect we've got you know , 6 to 9 months of continued what I'd call insurance . And macro market headwinds that are going to show up in the form of , you know , ebbing renewal , premium change headwinds , but ultimately , you know , as you think about the broader dynamics of kind of where the dynamics of risk are headed , both from a natural catastrophe standpoint and in terms of frequency and severity of events , in terms of , you know , social inflation or legal system abuse on casualty , it's hard to imagine a world where renewal , premium change isn't at least low to mid-single digits over time .
Speaker #5: And if you normalize to that , you know , just just taking the 5.7% RPC to flat plus normalizing for the accounting change is is a double digit growth business in the quarter .
Speaker #7: Just to clarification on the procedural change is that is so it's a it's a it's a headwind a couple quarters of headwind . Is there going to be once we anniversary it is there going to be like four quarters of an unusual benefit then and then we go back to some normalized rate .
Speaker #5: Yeah . That's the right way to think about it . Greg .
Speaker #7: Yeah , great . The second question , I , I guess it's technically the third , but the second question I had was on the organic revenue results and the underwriting capacity and technology solutions business , because that's been , you know , really very consistent and strong .
Speaker #7: You know , recorded strong results . And I'm just curious about what kind of competition you're seeing in that marketplace . And I guess the Genesis behind that would be earlier today , progressive had its its quarterly call .
Speaker #7: And they talked about renters insurance as being an area of focus for them . And so it just triggered a hey , how are you ?
Speaker #7: How are it doesn't show up in your numbers , but how are you seeing competitive pressures in your utc's business ?
Speaker #5: Yeah . So , Greg , I'd say broadly , you know , we have a diversified portfolio of products , including , you know , both commercial and personal lines , including property , short tail casualty , mid and long tail .
Speaker #5: And so , you know , there's there's not a broad brush , I'd say commentary to answer that question . Competitive dynamics , market pressures vary product by product , line by line at a at a very high level .
Speaker #5: What I would tell you is we're very thoughtful about the products that we go to market with and ensuring that we've been able to identify a way in which we can carve out a real right to win , both around how the product is built and underwritten and highly segmented .
Speaker #5: From a pricing standpoint , as well as from a distribution standpoint and how we have unique access and competitive advantage relative to the way in which our product is being sold into the marketplace .
Speaker #5: You know , specific to your question around renters , you know , I think there's multiple ways in which people go to market for that business .
Speaker #5: We happen to go to market exclusively as an embedded insurance provider , meaning we're partnering with the ERP technology platforms that property management firms use to operate their buildings and manage their their leases and and books .
Speaker #5: And and so we become that kind of embedded solution of convenience as a result , we're not our renters product is not sold in traditional manners .
Speaker #5: I think as progressive thinks about their product , I suspect , you know , it's more like a Geico renters product or eliminate renters product .
Speaker #5: And that's a more traditional go to market strategy . And that's just one , you know , we're just not competing for that for that type of business .
Speaker #5: Our renters , customers , one that is opting in to our product because they can bind it in less than 30s natively in the leasing workflow .
Speaker #5: It's the solution of convenience . We in fact , are are going to be launching next year . A new innovative renters product that is embedded into the rent ledger .
Speaker #5: And so kind of naturally embedded into the rent payment , which we're really excited about . Some of the momentum that could drive and the continued building penetration .
Speaker #5: So we feel good about our competitive positioning there . It's not that we don't have competitors . We do . But this is a space we've been in for a while .
Speaker #5: We have leading market share and we feel really good about our right to win . And the and the competitive moats we have as a result of our technology platform and how that enables our go to market .
Speaker #5: Thanks for the question , Greg .
Speaker #7: Yeah , yeah . Thank you .
Speaker #3: Thank you . Our next question comes from Charlie Lederer with BMO Capital Markets . Please go ahead .
Speaker #8: Hey , thanks . Quick one on your preliminary excuse me , on your preliminary outlook for 2026 organic of high single digits . What are you what are you , if anything , embedding for the the attorney .
Speaker #8: In fact , fees on Bri and also the embedded mortgage channel revenue .
Speaker #5: Yeah . Hey , Charlie , this is Trevor . I would tell you that we have nominal assumptions built in for the attorney .
Speaker #5: In fact . And while I wouldn't quite call it nominal on embedded , it's not it's certainly not heroic . That's a business we expect to build over time .
Speaker #5: We're super excited about the momentum we have there . You heard me . Share some of those statistics around the early proof points of success with some of our mortgage partners that have gone live on the platform .
Speaker #5: So we're we're quite enthused . We've got a terrific backlog . Our digital agent workflow and , and kind of how it's embedded into the mortgage process , how it enables a seamless insurance buying and binding experience is driving really , really compelling conversion statistics .
Speaker #5: You know , when a when a potential homeowner opts into our digital experience , we bind a home policy for them . Three and a half times .
Speaker #5: The rate at which we do through traditional channels and as a result , you know , we're already ahead of our early kind of proformas and expectations around conversion rates in the mortgage channel .
Speaker #5: And and we're super excited . So lots of momentum there . But , you know , we don't we anticipate that has , you know , a growing impact on our financial results .
Speaker #5: But not a material impact on 2026 .
Speaker #8: Thanks . That's helpful . And then maybe just another another one on Ia's . So if I take out the pull forward that you guys called out last quarter and then take out some of the headwinds this quarter from the accounting change , and then presumably the pull forward was taken out of this quarter .
Speaker #8: And the acceleration is pretty pronounced . I guess . I mean , is that just sales velocity because sales velocity was a little slower .
Speaker #8: So I'm trying to kind of connect the dots . Maybe it's just business mix . I don't know if there's any color you can add .
Speaker #5: I mean , I guess I'm not fully following the question . Charlie , like sales velocity was 20% . So quite strong . When you say pull forward , do you mean the impact of the procedural accounting change and how that pushes out the timing of of recognizing revenue ?
Speaker #8: I was more talking about the, I think you guys talked about two energy clients last quarter that bumped up the IAS organic.
Speaker #8: Maybe I'm .
Speaker #5: Yeah , yeah , those were pulled forward into the second quarter . Correct .
Speaker #8: From from the third quarter . Right . Or was it .
Speaker #9: That's correct . Okay . That's correct . So .
Speaker #8: Yeah . So I guess if you kind of factor that in , it's a pretty pronounced acceleration . So I don't know if that's just business mix or .
Speaker #8: Yeah, I guess I was just trying to understand.
Speaker #5: Yeah I'm following you Charlie . So yeah I think I would point you to rate and exposure and and the headwinds that created as an offset .
Speaker #5: But yeah , the as you heard , you know , we're feeling really good about the underlying momentum in the is business . It's somewhat masked by , you know , the the market renewal premium change dynamics in this accounting change .
Speaker #5: That's just simply pushing revenue into the next year. But you know, at 20% sales velocity, that's as good as it gets.
Speaker #5: And we're super pleased with the momentum and the backlog of new business, and how that positions us into 2026.
Speaker #8: Got it. Thank you.
Speaker #3: Thank you. The next question comes from Elise Greenspan with Wells Fargo. Please go ahead.
Speaker #10: Hi . Thanks . I guess I have a follow up trying to parse together some of just the commentary on IAS and specific to the guide .
Speaker #10: Right . I think you guys said , you know , organic mid-single digits , right ? I think in the fourth quarter , what are you assuming for IAS ?
Speaker #10: And then within the guidance next year for high single-digit organic growth, I think you said that's back half heavy. So do you expect to start like in the low single digits and pick up? And also, what does that imply, I guess, for IAS embedded within the guide next year as well?
Speaker #5: Yeah . Hey Elise , this .
Speaker #9: Is Trevor . So .
Speaker #5: Consistent with past practice . We're not going to get into segment level OG guides . What I would say is we feel good about mid-single digits for Q4 across the business as we look towards 2026 .
Speaker #5: We feel good about high single digits . And and we would expect organic growth to accelerate through the year , particularly in the back half as we lap the two idiosyncratic headwinds that we called out that that come to an end , then , you know , as as you've overheard in some of the earlier Q&A , you know , we have strong new business momentum in the Is business .
Speaker #5: You know , we have had pretty meaningful renewal , premium change headwinds , some driven by rate , some driven by exposure . We expect that we've seen the floor there and that that begins to ebb .
Speaker #5: But I would still expect , you know , RPC headwinds in the first half of next year before that begins to normalize .
Speaker #10: And then within the guidance for next year , within the revenue guide , what are you assuming for M&A ? And I know obviously , you know , it depends upon when they are when the deal is closed .
Speaker #10: But what's embedded within next year's guidance for any level of M&A .
Speaker #6: Yeah , I would say we have a nominal amount of M&A embedded into next year's guidance . We continue to maintain a strong pipeline with a lot of really interesting opportunities , but it's nominal to the guide we provided for 26 .
Speaker #10: And then the savings that you guys outlined like 3 to 5 next year . Right ? I think 10 to 15 and 27 is the expectation that those will all fall to the bottom line and help margin .
Speaker #10: Or is there some level of reinvestment being contemplated as well?
Speaker #5: Those savings articulated or net of reinvestment ?
Speaker #10: Okay , great . Thank you .
Speaker #3: Thank you . Our next question comes from Pablo Singson with JP Morgan . Please go ahead .
Speaker #11: Hi. Good afternoon. So, maybe the first one for Trevor. I know you spoke about employee benefits early on this year. I was a bit surprised by your update today.
Speaker #11: I think you had mentioned something like an 800 headwind . There versus about 300% . PNC . Is there anything unique about the employee replace insurance for ?
Speaker #11: Maybe they work in industries that are more economically sensitive and just , you know , given the weakness in the labor market , that's been being widely reported on today , what gives you confidence that you'll see a recovery in IIs og next year ?
Speaker #5: Yeah . Hey , Pablo . No , I don't think there's a particular uniqueness in our employee benefits client base . I mean , as I think about where it skews heavy , our largest concentration of benefits clients would be in , you know , in , on the West Coast with a pretty heavy bent towards technology .
Speaker #5: So maybe we skew a little bit heavier there , which would make sense just based on some of the headcount trends we've seen relative to kind of early adopters on AI and things of that nature .
Speaker #5: As we as , as you mentioned , you know , our confidence around the OGE and the acceleration heading into next year . That's less about , you know , that doesn't contemplate a stronger labor market that contemplates kind of , you know , real time visibility that we have now into , you know , the cost of health care and the cost of health insurance and how that , you know , ultimately will inflate premiums .
Speaker #5: You know , there's been a pretty significant increase in health care cost trend this year . You know , well documented in the managed care space .
Speaker #5: But I'd say that that also exists in in the traditional pre 65 marketplace as well . And while I'd say that , you know , it's good in multiple ways for our business , one , as costs go up , demand for our advice and our innovative solutions goes up or scale .
Speaker #5: And the breadth of kind of tools and capabilities enable us to , you know , bring value . And in ways that many of our smaller competitors are just unable to do .
Speaker #5: And it also drives ultimately up costs , you know , for a business that's largely commission oriented , you know , when premiums are up , as you know , our revenues tend to trend in a similar direction .
Speaker #11: Okay . Thanks . That's helpful . And then second question is just on the QBE and the ramp up in attorney fees , right ?
Speaker #11: So I guess the question there is holding premium volumes constant . And this goes to basically the gap between the commission you lost and how much you'll earn in fees .
Speaker #11: Right . How many years will it take you to sort of get back to your previous state , assuming , you know , premium volunteer the same , right .
Speaker #11: You yeah .
Speaker #9: We expect it to take.
Speaker #5: 2 to 2 and a half years from five one of 2026 . Importantly , Pablo , for the time being , we account for that .
Speaker #5: AIF on the equity method . And so it will not come into revenue . It will come into EBITDA .
Speaker #11: Okay . Thank you .
Speaker #3: Thank you .
Speaker #9: Thanks .
Speaker #3: Next question comes from Andrew Anderson with Jefferies. Please go ahead.
Speaker #12: Hey good afternoon . Sorry . Maybe some more questions on the reciprocal . I think in response to an earlier question , you said you were anticipating a nominal benefit from the reciprocal inorganic I guess .
Speaker #12: Is there any part of this going into organic? Have you just maybe parsed that out a bit?
Speaker #6: Yeah . Andrew . Thanks . It's Brad . No , there's no benefit to organic on the reciprocal . I think that was in reference to the other part of that question .
Speaker #6: The only benefit of the AIF is the direct earnings benefit, where we get 75% of the earnings under the equity method.
Speaker #12: Okay . Thanks . And then , you know , in when we're talking about this turning into a tailwind and you kind of just mentioned a moment ago , it sounds like it could take two years to fully flip over .
Speaker #12: And I think the fee income would be on kind of the , the policies binding . And on a , on a look back .
Speaker #12: So I guess I'm struggling with how it turns into a tailwind in the second half of 2026. It, it feels like maybe you're past the peak of the headwind.
Speaker #12: But but there still is a headwind persisting until we , we get to the end of two years . Is that the right way of thinking about it ?
Speaker #9: No .
Speaker #5: No , it's not so on for 30 , 20 , 26 . The headwinds from the commission step down , going from 31 to 26 on the QBE program ceased to be a headwind because the entire portfolio will have annualized onto that 26% commission rate .
Speaker #5: At the same time , the attorney , in fact , which we own , will be accruing revenue in at 5% of premium as earned into the reciprocal .
Speaker #5: And that's an important distinction because commissions are booked upfront upon policy binding, whereas AIF fees are booked over the life of the policy.
Speaker #5: Readably . And so there is a difference in the earning rate from a timing perspective , which drives some of this . And then there's also the timeline that it takes to roll all of the premium off of QBE .
Speaker #5: And all of the states . We're doing business into the reciprocal . And so while the first 12 months you fully absorb the commission reduction , it takes us a couple years to fully roll all of that premium off of QBE and all of the states .
Speaker #5: We're doing business in , fully into the reciprocal , the AIF does not begin earning AIF fees until those premiums renew into that reciprocal vehicle .
Speaker #5: Now, importantly, we started with Texas on July 1st, which is the largest state in the QBE portfolio, and we will likely be following thereafter with California, which is the second largest state.
Speaker #5: And so we intend to get through the states with the largest volumes of premium next year and have the vast majority of that premium rolling in as a result , the IAF fees , you know , they're already beginning to earn .
Speaker #5: They're just , you know , not meaningful at this point in time . But they will build month by month . And after that , 2 to 2 and a half year time period should be fully run rate again .
Speaker #12: Thank you. I really appreciate the walk-through.
Speaker #9: Yep .
Speaker #3: Thank you . Our next question comes from Brian Meredith with UBS . Please go ahead .
Speaker #13: Hey , thanks . Two questions . Just just first one , I'm just curious your assumptions as far as you know , how much you're going to be able to renew in the reciprocal on your guidance .
Speaker #13: And what is it looking like so far?
Speaker #5: Yeah . So we are currently renewing at a rate that is slightly better than our assumption coming in . You know , we are constraining that with a higher cancellation reserve out of , you know , I'd say an appropriate degree of caution , but thus far , you know , we've seen , you know , cancellation rates level out at a level that is below , you know , what our initial assumptions were .
Speaker #13: Great . That's helpful . And second question , just to big picture back on the capital management . And I appreciate the color , Brad , that you gave on .
Speaker #13: You know , getting below comfortable four times before you buy back stock . But just given where your stock is trading right now and it feels like it's obviously below its intrinsic value , why wouldn't you use some of the free cash flow you're generating right now ?
Speaker #13: And and buybacks and stock a little bit right now it seems like a pretty good return on investment .
Speaker #6: Yeah . Thanks , Brian . So look we we do as we mentioned in the prepared remarks , intend to authorize a buyback program once our leverage is comfortably below four times .
Speaker #6: We've been incredibly vocal publicly about reaching that guide . And the critical importance of financial flexibility that comes post reaching that sort of less than four times .
Speaker #6: You know , importantly , we don't intend to use buybacks programmatically . Really , this adds a tool to the toolkit for us when we're seeing periods of dislocation in our stock price .
Speaker #6: It is very clearly a third option for us . For capital deployment after , as we talked about our investments and M&A , but certainly there are times where it makes financial sense .
Speaker #6: As you indicated , that decision point will really be whether we feel like we can generate significantly better risk adjusted returns at that point in time through a buyback versus deploying capital through M&A .
Speaker #6: And we leverage various valuation techniques and metrics , as well as our line of sight to the M&A pipeline and making that decision .
Speaker #6: So , you know , four times remains the priority . And that's why we're not stepping in now .
Speaker #5: But , Brian , we agree with your general sentiments , which is it is a very attractive investment opportunity right now . And we just feel like we we've made very strong commitments to our shareholders around prioritizing , getting leverage under four before all else .
Speaker #5: And so, we'll be there shortly. And then we'll see where things stand.
Speaker #13: Thank you .
Speaker #3: Thank you . Our next question comes from Tommy McLean with CWB . Please go ahead .
Speaker #14: Hey guys . Good evening . When you give us that 40 million annualized run rate savings from the expense program , what expense line denominator should should we reference to get to , you know , a result of thinking about Baldwin's automation efforts or going to take out x percent of expenses out of the business ?
Speaker #5: Yeah. You should largely think about that as being related to workforce transformation.
Speaker #14: Okay . And then you you did mention the three b-30 . I don't know if I just didn't hear it , but is when you first introduced it a year ago , it was three B 30 and five .
Speaker #14: Is there a timeline for for that for that program still ? And is it still the same .
Speaker #5: Hasn't .
Speaker #15: Changed .
Speaker #5: Same timeline . .
Speaker #14: Sounds good . Thank you .
Speaker #3: Thanks . Thank you , thank you . Our next question comes from Pablo Sison with JPMorgan . Please go ahead .
Speaker #11: Hi . Thanks for taking my follow up . So on the ECT , ect business , I think about 15 million of the organic revenues generated this year are arising from basically rental , you know , rental program that's converted to captive format .
Speaker #11: And I guess the question there is, do you expect that this is to grow next year? And do you expect further conversions?
Speaker #11: Right. Because effectively what's happening is that instead of booking a commission, we're booking a premium, and you know, that helps organic.
Speaker #11: So I'm just wondering sort of your plans for you know , at least that piece of ucts . Thank you .
Speaker #5: Yeah . Hey , Pablo , we would expect it to continue to grow , but not at the rate on a relative basis that it is now .
Speaker #5: You know, we think about that captive as really being an opportunity to optimize the economics on a very well-run, low-volatility program.
Speaker #5: And so, you know, you should really think about that as our way of accessing the appropriate level of supplemental and contingent revenues on a high-performing program.
Speaker #11: Got it . Thanks , Trevor .
Speaker #5: Thanks, Pablo. And with that, I think we're going to wrap up for the evening. So, I want to just thank you all for joining us on the call.
Speaker #5: We're really excited for the growing momentum we have across our business as we head into 2026 . In closing , I want to thank our colleagues for their hard work and dedication and delivering innovative solutions and exceptional results for our clients .
Speaker #5: And I also want to thank our clients for their continued trust and confidence in our teams . Thank you all very much and we look forward to speaking to you again next quarter .