Q3 2025 Chemours Co (The) Earnings Call

Speaker #1: Good morning . My name is Gigi and I'll be your conference operator today . I would like to welcome everyone to the Comores company .

Speaker #1: Third quarter 2025 results conference call . Currently , all participants are in listen only mode . A question and answer session will follow the conclusion of the prepared remarks .

Speaker #1: I would like to remind everyone that this conference call is being recorded. I would now like to hand the conference call over to Brandon Ontjes, Vice President, Head of Strategy and Investor Relations for Chemours.

Speaker #1: You may begin your conference .

Speaker #2: Good morning everybody . Welcome to the Comores Company's third quarter 2020 earnings conference call . I'm joined today by Denise Dignam , Comores President and Chief Executive Officer .

Speaker #2: And our senior vice President and Chief Financial Officer , Shane Hostetter . Before we start , I would like to remind you that comments made on this call , as well as in the Supplemental information provided on our website , contain forward looking statements that involve risks and uncertainties as described in Comores .

Speaker #2: SEC filings . These forward looking statements are not guarantees of future performance and are based on certain assumptions and expectations of future events that may not be realized .

Speaker #2: Actual results may differ, and Chemours undertakes no duty to update any forward-looking statements as a result of future developments or new information.

Speaker #2: During the course of this call, we will refer to certain non-GAAP financial measures that we believe are useful to investors evaluating the company's performance. A reconciliation of non-GAAP terms and adjustments is included in our press release issued yesterday evening.

Speaker #2: Additionally , we posted our earnings presentation and prepared remarks on our website yesterday evening as well . With that , I will turn the call over to Denise Dignam .

Speaker #3: Thank you . Brandon , and thank you everyone for joining us during today's call . I will begin by discussing highlights from our third quarter performance and will then turn it over to Cian , who will provide details around our outlook .

Speaker #3: Finally , I will provide updates on meaningful progress on our pathway to thrive strategy , along with strategic developments . Before taking your questions .

Speaker #3: For our third quarter performance , we exceeded our adjusted EBITDA expectations despite persisting macroeconomic weakness that affected some economically sensitive sectors of our business .

Speaker #3: Our stronger earnings were driven through diligent commercial execution in stationary aftermarket sales of option refrigerants . Under the backdrop of the 2025 US .

Speaker #3: Aim Ax stationary equipment transition . Further supported by lower corporate costs . While we had highlighted some anticipated operational disruptions heading into the third quarter , these issues are now resolved , aided by our Manufacturing center of Excellence enabling quicker response and enhanced issue mitigation .

Speaker #3: Now , turning to each segment's performance in the third quarter . Starting with TS , our TS business reported another quarter with results exceeding earnings projections as at sales maintained double digit growth of 80% compared to the prior year quarter .

Speaker #3: This marks the third quarter record for option sales . The increase in option was primarily due to higher pricing and volume associated with sales into the stationary aftermarket .

Speaker #3: In connection with the US , A-max residential and commercial HVAC equipment transition this year . Throughout this transition , the SCE team displayed its focus on commercial excellence , capturing sales opportunities while making efficient use of our quota allowances .

Speaker #3: As a result of the achievement, refrigerants now account for 80% of total refrigerant sales, an increase from 58% in the previous year.

Speaker #3: TS is excellent commercial discipline drove earnings performance and a 35% adjusted EBITDA margin , underscoring the strength of our differentiated portfolio and ability to capture profitable growth tied to the regulatory transition .

Speaker #3: This earnings performance also reflected some higher than anticipated one time costs associated with continued investments to commercialize our liquid cooling product . The latest notable achievement in this journey being the recent successful technical qualification of our two phase immersion cooling fluid by Samsung Electronics .

Speaker #3: All together . This was an industry leading performance from TS , outpacing our third quarter adjusted EBITDA expectations and setting a solid foundation as we head into the fourth quarter and next year .

Speaker #3: Turning to APM. APM also drove solid top-line performance for the third quarter, which ensured earnings performance was in line with our expectations.

Speaker #3: Washington Works was back up and running by mid-August following the external utility disruption due to the diligent response effort from our site team .

Speaker #3: In addition to driving expected earnings results , the APM business continued to make notable progress to execute upon our portfolio management efforts , completing the shutdown of the SPS capstone product line during the third quarter , adding to this strategic execution , the APM business also announced an agreement with SRF limited in India to support needs for essential applications .

Speaker #3: This partnership positions our company to benefit from a more flexible and robust operational footprint . While providing optionality to better serve our dynamic customer base .

Speaker #3: Moving to TT in the third quarter , TT delivered overall results below our expectations , primarily due to sustained macro weakness across the global TiO2 market .

Speaker #3: In our key Western markets, we experienced seasonal trends compounded by some near-term destocking. That was partially offset by some sequential pricing strength in these Western markets.

Speaker #3: We view this destocking activity as short term as customers look to preserve cash as they navigate uncertainties in exiting the year . Alternatively , in our non-Western markets , sequential pricing weakness was offset by sequential volume strength .

Speaker #3: Despite challenges in the broader market . Our team demonstrated resilience while effectively addressing anticipated disruptions through our efforts . We are now well positioned to minimize future disruptions and respond proactively to external factors that may arise .

Speaker #3: While the broader market has yet to indicate improvements , we remain steadfast in our pursuit of a value based commercial strategy . This approach is aligned with the product quality that we provide to our customers , and is reflective of the competitive advantages that we provide in reliability , customer service and sustainability .

Speaker #3: In line with this approach , in the fourth quarter , we recently communicated a global pricing increase , which is reflective of our value in the market .

Speaker #3: As we look at global market capacity during the third quarter , we continued to see capacity rationalization of Chinese production and other Western producers as the market continues to realign to a weaker demand environment .

Speaker #3: While it is clear that exports of Chinese product continue , albeit at lower rates than last year , much of this inventory continues to be exported to Southeast Asia , the Middle East and Africa , and parts of Latin America .

Speaker #3: In light of this , we are seeing the recent fair trade actions in Europe holding strong , but with additional supply in the market due to excess inventory from a Western producers inability to continue operations in the third quarter .

Speaker #3: Also, we were pleased to see finalized fair trade actions taken in Brazil and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. However, note that it will take some months for the existing oversupply of titanium dioxide inventory to work its way through the system.

Speaker #3: In these markets . We believe these changes in the global supply environment provide longer term opportunities in Western markets , but they are more muted in the near term due to the continued macro weakness and additional inventory in the system .

Speaker #3: I will provide additional perspectives on our strategic progress and our path for TT . After Shane shares an update on our guidance for the period ahead at the corporate level , we continue to make progress against our underlying cost structure .

Speaker #3: While we did incur some slightly more favorable costs , partially due to the timing of certain legal spending , a portion of these lower costs are due to the continued cost efforts that the company has executed over time .

Speaker #3: With that, I'll turn it over to Shane to walk through our outlook.

Speaker #4: Thank you , Denise , and good morning everyone . As shared in our earnings materials as well as the supplemental prepared remarks available on our investor website , I would like to now discuss our expectations for the fourth quarter .

Speaker #4: And as we look ahead , beginning with SE for the fourth quarter , we expect net sales to decrease sequentially in the high teens to low 20s percentage range , driven by traditional seasonality with continued double digit growth .

Speaker #4: This option performance is anticipated to more than offset declines in our Freon business year over year . SE adjusted EBITDA is expected to decrease sequentially , ranging between 125 million and 140 million .

Speaker #4: Also driven by seasonality . As we make progress on our next generation refrigerants and liquid cooling solutions , we anticipate continued investments to support our commercialization and product sampling efforts .

Speaker #4: Similar to the 22 million in cost . We saw this quarter , reflective of some one time production related costs . We expect another 8 million in the fourth quarter , bringing our full year estimate of product development costs to approximately 40 million .

Speaker #4: As we look ahead into next year , we anticipate that we will continue to achieve double digit year over year . Growth into the early part of the year as OEMs continue to transition to R4 54 B in the US , we also expect modest benefits from our cost out efforts driven by our expanded capacity through our recent corpus expansion , which will continue to expand margins over time .

Speaker #4: Also , we anticipate product development costs to be closer to 20 million next year , consistent with earlier expectations for annual spend . Overall , we anticipate continued sales growth for TS paired with improved earnings as we head into next year for our APM business , we expect net sales to decrease in the low single digit percentage range sequentially due to market weakness in the global industrial end markets , where we have more sensitivity to macroeconomic conditions .

Speaker #4: Adjusted EBITDA is expected to approximate $30 million to $40 million in the fourth quarter, driven by a return to normal operations at our Washington Works site, paired with continued progress on cost reduction efforts.

Speaker #4: We believe that Apms fourth quarter EBITDA will reflect our continued focus on operational excellence to drive increased reliability , paired with continued cost out efforts , and should be at a more normalized level of earnings , which we expect will continue in future quarters .

Speaker #4: For RTT business , we expect sequential net sales to decrease in the high single digits to low teens . Percentage range , driven by seasonality , regional sales mix , as well as near-term destocking , which we see continuing until the end of the year .

Speaker #4: Adjusted EBITDA is expected to decrease sequentially , ranging between 15,000,020 million during the third quarter . The company decided to lower its production volumes concurrently with what we are seeing in Pts value chain .

Speaker #4: While near-term demand expectations remain muted , this decrease in production will result in a 25 million cost impact to Pts . Adjusted EBITDA in the fourth quarter .

Speaker #4: Offsetting sequential benefits from improved operations and cost reductions , but will improve Pts cash generation . As Denise shared earlier , we anticipate that this destocking will be short term as downstream customers look to conserve cash , moving into the end of the year .

Speaker #4: Looking to 2026 , we anticipate similar stocking efforts in the first quarter . In connection with this first quarter restocking . We expect improved earnings as we head into next year , supported by improved operational performance .

Speaker #4: However , we do anticipate muted market conditions to persist in the quarters ahead considering these weaker conditions , we are placing a greater emphasis on promoting improved cash generation and will seek to closely align our production with anticipated demand to this when the broader market demand profile improves , we will align production , which will drive improved cost absorption across our circuit with our resolve unchanged , we continue to make good progress on costs .

Speaker #4: However , recognize that the full benefit of these reductions may be masked by the impacts of our lower circuit operations . On a consolidated basis , we anticipate our fourth quarter net sales to decrease 10 to 15% sequentially with consolidated adjusted EBITDA expected to range between 130 to 160 million .

Speaker #4: Also , we anticipate corporate expenses to range between 40 million and 45 million , considering the timing of certain accrued expenses , our capital expenditures for the fourth quarter are expected to be in the range of 50 million , with free cash flow conversion expected to be between 50 and 70% .

Speaker #4: Based on these metrics , we would anticipate that full year 2025 sales would range between 5.7 and 5.8 billion , with adjusted EBITDA to range between 745 and 7 .

Speaker #4: 70 million, with CapEx in the range of $220 million for the year. Looking forward to 2026, at a consolidated level, we anticipate overall sales and earnings growth, with improved cash flow performance supported by continued progress on our cost-out efforts.

Speaker #4: We remain committed to improving our enterprises financial position to support our pathway to thrive . Strategy . Beyond the recent recapitalization of our US term loan , which extended the maturity of the facility from 2028 to 2032 , we continue to review our business portfolio as well as looking at other avenues to create value similar to critical minerals , which Denise will discuss in a minute .

Speaker #4: We are also taking a disciplined approach to the review of our non-operating real estate footprint to determine how it can be optimized without impacting existing operations.

Speaker #4: Efforts like these aim to ensure that our resources are being used effectively and efficiently to further our strategic goals and to balance our financial flexibility with that context .

Speaker #4: On our look ahead , I'd like to now hand the call back over to Denise to . Share perspective on our engagement and critical minerals and our continued strategic execution under Pathway to Thrive .

Speaker #3: Thank you . Shane . We continue to execute our pathway to thrive strategy with clarity and conviction to build on the progress we have achieved to date across all our pillars .

Speaker #3: With that perspective , I'd like to provide additional context on where we participate in the area of critical minerals , which is concentrated in our TT business , supporting our enabling growth pillar , while our minerals business is limited , we currently estimate approximately $90 million in mineral sales annually , with roughly half consisting of high value minerals comprised of monocyte and precision investment casting .

Speaker #3: Zircon, the mineral that we process domestically through our minds, which supports existing titanium dioxide feedstock operations, continues to contain a uniquely high portion of heavy rare earth elements that are used to produce permanent magnets.

Speaker #3: Critical for the electric vehicle and defense markets, this attribute differentiates our domestic supply of monazite compared to other forms of rare earths found in North America.

Speaker #3: Additionally, we are the only qualified zircon supplier for U.S. precision investment casting applications, which is critical to the aerospace industry for both defense and commercial end uses.

Speaker #3: While our access to mines in Florida and Georgia provides the opportunity to extract these minerals, our TT business also possesses the ability to separate these critical minerals.

Speaker #3: Considering our specialized experience in the mining and mineral separation space , which has spanned over 75 years , we have been able to leverage this expertise to more recently attract government funding around our separation capabilities .

Speaker #3: This funding is designed to support innovative separation assets and to provide a framework to drive future growth . In this space . Total grant funding awarded for 2025 and 2026 approximates $10 million , while an area that we have operational experience in , we look forward to continuing research of this innovative separation technology to develop future critical mineral opportunities in the United States .

Speaker #3: The presence of our mineral sales in the business today , combined with the potential of government support for future opportunities , provides an exciting pathway for our company to enable growth while continuing to serve the needs of these critical end markets .

Speaker #3: With regard to the execution of our operational Excellence pillar , we have also launched the Comores Business System to take the next step in operational excellence .

Speaker #3: Applying lean principles to drive , step , change improvements in safety , quality and efficiency across our business operations . As we build on our recent operating improvements , we're also focused on pursuing further rigor in our commercial effectiveness .

Speaker #3: We believe that the reduced operational disruptions and enhanced commercial efforts will drive earnings growth . As we head into next year . As we've shared in recent quarters , we remain focused on controlling what we can control while pursuing commercial growth opportunities where we can .

Speaker #3: We are confident in our ability to close out the year and remain committed to driving long term value for our shareholders through disciplined execution , strategic growth and operational rigor .

Speaker #3: As we continue to execute on the four pillars of our pathway to thrive strategy , we are routinely evaluating our existing portfolio for opportunities where there may be a more efficient path to return value to our shareholders .

Speaker #3: Our senior leadership and board remain grounded in our belief that the execution of our transformation strategy will provide a greater degree of strategic flexibility and position the business to thrive .

Speaker #3: Our team continues to pursue new ways to enable growth , remaining focused on optimizing our portfolio management efforts , and is steadfast in our advocacy and execution to strengthen the long term for Comores .

Speaker #3: Thank you for your continued support. With that, I'd like to open the line for your questions.

Speaker #1: As a reminder to ask a question , please press star one . One on your telephone and wait for your name to be announced to withdraw your question , please press star one .

Speaker #1: One again . Please stand by while we compile the Q&A roster . Our first question comes from the line of John McNulty from BMO .

Speaker #5: Yeah . Good morning . Thanks for taking my question . So maybe the first question is just on the SE business . It sounds like despite what we've been hearing from some of the some of the residential HVAC OEMs around , kind of what looks like a volume speed bump , it sounds like you're not really seeing that and you don't expect it as you look to 2026 , I guess .

Speaker #5: Can you help us to understand why that would be ? Some of the smoothing mechanism that you may have in place and or , you know , maybe it's just not .

Speaker #5: While it was a big improvement this year , it may not be . You know , it's not the only part of your business , but I guess help us to understand why we're not going to see that speed bump work through the the refrigeration side of the business .

Speaker #3: Hi , John . Hey , thanks so much for the question . Yeah , I mean , we as a business are focused always on maximizing value of our quota .

Speaker #3: So we have a broad portfolio outside of HVAC OEMs . You know , from an application , from a product , from a regional perspective .

Speaker #3: So we're always focused on just maximizing the the quota . You know , we expect double digit growth going into the fourth quarter .

Speaker #3: And as we start 2026 , you know , I feel really proud of what what the team has been able to deliver . If you look at our refrigerant sales , we're up year over year , 32% , 80% .

Speaker #3: We have seen an increase in sales year over year. From a segment perspective, our sales are up 20%, and we've experienced margin expansion from 30% to 35%.

Speaker #5: Got it . Okay . Fair enough . No . And look it's been a it's been a great performance this year so far okay .

Speaker #5: And then I guess the second one I wanted to dig into kind of goes to your , your last point where you're , you're constantly kind of reviewing the path to return value to the shareholders .

Speaker #5: And I guess to that , you know , you've got you have a lot of balls in the air at this point . You've got the data center opportunity .

Speaker #5: It sounds like you at least have some opportunities around critical minerals . You know , as well as kind of running the other core core businesses .

Speaker #5: So kind of a lot going on , I guess . Do you think cameras has the bandwidth to manage all of that , or are there other potential owners of some of these assets that might be better owners ?

Speaker #5: Not that you guys aren't good owners, but maybe, just maybe, there are better owners for specifically the way to get as much out of these assets as they could.

Speaker #3: Yeah , John , thanks for the for the question . We actually feel really good about the things that we're working on and really aligned with , you know , our pathway to thrive strategy .

Speaker #3: When you think about the strategy that we put in place, it really is about strengthening the company over the next several years.

Speaker #3: So you look at operational excellence , getting out $250 million of costs , enabling growth , getting to a 5% kager portfolio management , as you talked about , you know , the critical minerals or data centers and even around our APM portfolio , some of the things that we've done .

Speaker #3: And then our last pillar , strengthening the long term , you know , around our legal legacy liabilities and advocacy and really strengthening , you know , the whole portfolio .

Speaker #3: So it's really about creating a strong company , strong balance sheet . And to give us optionality as we move beyond pathway to thrive .

Speaker #4: Yeah . Just to add to that , John , as you think about the third pillar , about portfolio optimization , going to , you know , are we the right owners , etc.

Speaker #4: , you know , we'll do whatever the right thing is to optimize the value to our shareholders . And that's including , you know , as we're managing these internally and thinking through our options , there .

Speaker #4: .

Speaker #5: Got it . Thanks very much for the color .

Speaker #1: Thank you . One moment for our next question . Our next question comes from the line of Pete Österlund from Truist Securities .

Speaker #6: Hey , good morning . Thanks for taking the questions . So first just wanted to start on just operating performance within the TT business .

Speaker #6: It looks like you're guiding for the impact from operational disruptions to be zero in the fourth quarter . So I was just wondering if you could give a bit more detail .

Speaker #6: I guess what specifically were the major improvements you've made operationally here ? How much opportunity is there to improve further in the coming quarters ?

Speaker #6: And, you know, potentially offset some of the cost impact if you have to continue running at lower production rates.

Speaker #3: Thanks . Thanks , Pete . From a from an operations standpoint . And we're feeling very , very good . Many of the issues that we faced were one time distinct issues .

Speaker #3: We've put contingency plans in place around those those issues . We have brought in really strong operational leadership . We stood up our manufacturing co and reliability is , you know , really one of the key elements of that work .

Speaker #3: You saw . We responded extremely well in the third quarter , and it was really through the resilience of that , that teamwork .

Speaker #3: And we're, you know, we're moving forward, even bolstering further, putting in a standardized operating system throughout the company. So I feel really good about it.

Speaker #3: I'm going to turn it over to Shane to kind of talk through the numbers .

Speaker #4: Pete , thanks for noticing that . We don't anticipate , you know , the one off operational issues that we saw earlier part of this year in the third quarter , going forward , you know , given all the efforts that Denise just mentioned and continued excellence will be that said , we did call out 25 million of call it fixed cost absorption that we're going to see in the fourth quarter .

Speaker #4: Just given that we are decreasing production to align with what the demand is that we see ahead of us. You know, those costs will continue, but it will depend upon where we ramp up production dependent upon as we view demand ahead of us.

Speaker #4: You know that , you know , as you mentioned , all potential offsets . We continue , you know , that first pillar and pathway to thrive and really driving out cost within TT .

Speaker #4: They are somewhat masked based on these fixed cost absorptions . But we'll continue to optimize and what we control .

Speaker #6: Very helpful . Thank you . And then just as a follow up on TT , just on your announcement of the TiO2 price increase effective in December , what gives you confidence that this will be implemented given that global demand conditions are still pretty weak ?

Speaker #6: And I guess by region , are there specific areas where you think market conditions are relatively more or less likely to support a price increase ?

Speaker #3: Yeah , you know , actually I feel really good about it . We've talked about our strategy being to maximize value and focusing on the fair trade markets .

Speaker #3: We've seen throughout the year . We've actually seen price stability in these markets . You know , there's obviously stuff going on the end of the year .

Speaker #3: There's one time issues there . Temporal . Right . So you have liquidation of inventory from a Western player . That's unable to continue operations .

Speaker #3: You have liquidation of inventory from CPS in Chinese producers . There's there was uncertainty in tariffs . That was introduced by by India .

Speaker #3: But that's going to get resolved . And if you look at the value chain , there's there's just talking from the value chain .

Speaker #3: You know we're confident that that our customers are going to be restocking in the in the first quarter . That aid is going to be resolved in India .

Speaker #3: And we're going to start seeing the impact of the other areas in Brazil and Saudi Arabia . So , you know , we're confident moving forward , as I said , you know , we've seen stability in in the in the fair trade markets , we play in and in , in particular in EMEA and in , in North America .

Speaker #3: So you know , we're confident moving forward .

Speaker #6: Great . Thanks a lot .

Speaker #1: Thank you . One moment for our next question . Our next question comes from the line of John Roberts from Mizuho .

Speaker #7: Thank you . How are you thinking about the replacement market for Hfos ? How fast do you think that develops in ? Does it become financially material in the next 18 , 24 months to sort of move the the overall HFO numbers ?

Speaker #4: Hey , John , as we look ahead , you know , we gave perspectives around 26 that we see double digit growth into the first part of next year .

Speaker #4: Obviously that is driven by the HFO market . You know , as we look at growth into 26 , we gave a guide just overall growth in sales and earnings and cash flow for SE .

Speaker #4: And that's going to be driven primarily by that HFO transition both in the OEM side and the aftermarket .

Speaker #1: Thank you . One moment for our next question . Our next question comes from the line of Arun Viswanathan from RBC Capital Markets .

Speaker #8: Yeah , thanks for taking my question . I guess maybe I'll start with TT . So , you know , when we go back about a year or so , you know , it looks like we were we were thinking that the segment would be maybe in the 300 or so million range for EBITDA .

Speaker #8: And you're significantly below that . And similarly for the company , we were kind of in the 875 range . Now you're in the 750 range .

Speaker #8: So I guess as you look back on on this year , would you say that the main shortfall has been in TiO2 demand and or would you cite something else as well ?

Speaker #8: And it's just , you know , because we went in this year thinking that pathway to thrive would add maybe 100 , 125 million of cost reductions .

Speaker #8: And it seems like the demand weakness is more than offset that . So maybe you can just comment on , you know , what kind of played out in TiO2 this year .

Speaker #8: And if it was worse than what you expected . Thanks .

Speaker #3: Yeah , thanks . Thanks , Arun . You know , definitely demand played a part in in TiO2 also . You know , some of the I'll say the shakiness with the tariffs and the duties implementation as well as you know this as I talked about these one time operational issues , we are very confident in our 125 million cost out .

Speaker #3: You can see it in many places already the skies in some . But I'm going to turn it over to Shane to give you a little bit more color on that .

Speaker #4: Yeah . Thanks everyone . You know , as we look coming into this year , you know , I don't think we expected $100 million , close to 100 million in operational impacts .

Speaker #4: You know , in the year . Certainly a step back as well as , you know , the impacts on TT , whether it be the stocking areas that we've seen or as Denise mentioned , some of the operational impacts just overall lack of demand in slow markets .

Speaker #4: Now , on the flip side , I think we are really pleasantly surprised on the impacts of SE and really what they've driven in the year from a solid performance .

Speaker #4: So , you know , just really wanted to applaud that group . You know , as we're looking at some of the decreases in the year , but also we've had really solid performance in our SE business .

Speaker #8: Great . Thanks for that . And I guess maybe I can just ask a follow up on SE . So maybe you can kind of give us some of the drivers for that growth that you expect next year .

Speaker #8: Again , it seems like , you know , we're coming off a pretty strong step down year . You know , as well as shortages that maybe drove some pretty robust pricing .

Speaker #8: So when you look into next year , now that corpus is is running up , would that be a contributor . Maybe the chiller adoption you know , does that get you into kind of double digit growth or how should we think about SE , especially in light of some of those HVAC inventory OEM overhangs ?

Speaker #8: Thanks .

Speaker #4: Yeah . Thanks , Varun . You know , as we look ahead to 26 , you know , one thing to note as you look at the OEM transition , about 75% has transitioned in .

Speaker #4: So we still have that runway going in, as well as we believe the aftermarket will grow somewhat as well. You know, we feel confident in our commercial execution.

Speaker #4: You look at what happened in 25 . We really think , you know , just looking ahead that our commercial group is primed to continue the growth in SE , you know , given the transition aspects , the other area there , you know , as you look at just cost out and and controlling what we can control , you mentioned the expansion of Corpus Christi .

Speaker #4: We do believe that will be a tailwind going into next year as we drive further cost optimization . And then lastly , you know , we did have some higher one time costs related to our next generation refrigerants as well as our liquid cooling venture , which we don't anticipate to recur .

Speaker #4: I put that is , you know , this year it's going to be roughly about 40 million . And we believe the annual run rate is going to be in the 20 million range .

Speaker #8: Great . Thanks for that . And just as a quick follow up . So when you think about again , when you when you think about this year and how it played out , you know , there were there were a number of operational , you know , disruptions , there were again , weak demand .

Speaker #8: How do you kind of foresee the next year ? I mean , do you think those operational disappointments are kind of in the rear view mirror ?

Speaker #8: What can you do to , you know , not necessarily have those kinds of disruptions , you know , impact you next year and , you know , really kind of show that growth that we know that the portfolio , you know , can achieve .

Speaker #8: It's just been a little bit disheartening at times when , you know , we know that the growth is there . It's just not kind of it's just getting offset by some of these , factors that some of which appear to be somewhat in your control .

Speaker #8: So maybe you can just address what you're doing to really tighten that up . Thank you .

Speaker #3: Yeah , definitely . Completely agree . You know we and this has been a number one focus . Our first pillar is operational excellence .

Speaker #3: And you know we've made a lot of investments . We talked about the manufacturing Co in leadership and operations in just investments in really how we work and our processes .

Speaker #3: So you know I feel really good about that . I agree it's something that we look at is in our rear view mirror .

Speaker #1: Thank you . One moment for our next question . Our next question comes from the line of Josh Spector from UBS .

Speaker #9: Yeah . Hi . Good morning . I had a few follow ups on SE . I'll just leave together first , just to confirm on the the liquid cooling investment , the 22 million versus the targeted five that flowed through EBITDA .

Speaker #9: Correct . And just what exactly drove that delta versus your expectation ?

Speaker #4: Yeah . Thanks , Josh . It did flow through EBITDA . Yes . And what drove it was , you know , as we're continuing development of the liquid cooling venture and thinking through that side , there are areas that we continue to develop specific to the charge related to an intermediate related to the product development side that we had to essentially take a charge off for .

Speaker #4: So it's a one time area . It's not something we anticipate going forward .

Speaker #9: So, is that something you spent money on that you’re writing off related to liquid cooling, or is that some other investment?

Speaker #4: No , it's a non-cash item . As we look ahead , we do anticipate , you know , value coming out of that .

Speaker #4: It was more of an accounting related area .

Speaker #9: Okay . And then secondly , with the whole SE moving parts of what you've had . So if we look at what you reported in three Q and two Q , you beat your expectations that you put out there by about 20 million .

Speaker #9: I mean , if we then add back this item that we're discussing , that's maybe 35 million in the fourth quarter or sorry , third quarter , I guess if you separate the pieces , we know your competitor had some issues with sales , and you guys benefited in the aftermarket .

Speaker #9: How much of that is sustainable and that you've won share . You keep it . How much of that would you characterize as potentially temporary due to the supply constraints and just the dynamics within two Q3 Q that do not repeat into next year ?

Speaker #3: Hey , Josh , thanks for the question . Yeah . I mean , we feel confident in our commercial capabilities . Certainly there's there's a little bit of a competitive aspect , but we really delivered and we know our customers and the value chain appreciated it .

Speaker #3: We also have other levers, as Shane talked about, relative to margin with the scaling up of our corpus facility and the continued growth in the aftermarket segment, where we've demonstrated a lot of strength.

Speaker #9: But I guess to be clear on that last point , scaling corpus helps you maybe 20 , 30 million . Does that offset some of the shift that you would expect ?

Speaker #9: And therefore that's neutral . Like , is that rough framing about right , or would you characterize it differently ?

Speaker #4: Yeah . Josh , I go back to the guidance we provided , which is we anticipate earnings growth going in from 25 to 26 .

Speaker #4: That's inclusive of the corpus expansion , but also inclusive of where we believe our top line revenue is going . As I indicated , sales were going to grow .

Speaker #4: You know , as as you mentioned , right . You know , we've had some really good performance in Q2 and Q3 . We believe we can hold on to that performance .

Speaker #4: And then the material amount and going into 26 as well .

Speaker #9: Okay . Thank you .

Speaker #1: Thank you . One moment for our next question . Our next question comes from the line of Duffy Fisher from Goldman Sachs .

Speaker #5: Yeah . Good morning . Can you help size for me . You know , as we've kind of pushed the Chinese out of Europe with ad Venator liquidating how much opportunity or how much volume does that open up for you guys to go after .

Speaker #5: You know , same thing for Brazil and India . And then , you relative to your market shares in those markets , would you expect to be below kind of at your market share or above your market share at winning the business ?

Speaker #5: It's kind of foregone by those actions .

Speaker #3: Thanks , Duffy . Yeah , I mean , our strategy is to grow our share in the fair market markets and we expect about 800 kilotonnes around .

Speaker #3: If you think about all those areas , Europe , India , Brazil . So yeah , a great opportunity for us . And we expect to be focused on growing share .

Speaker #5: Okay . And then could you size for me on your or inputs how important is Rio's African operations . As you know publicly they've said that they're looking at that .

Speaker #5: You know you don't know what hands you have. Those could end up in potentially, you know, maybe a Chinese competitor. So how important is that?

Speaker #5: Or in your operations and , you know , if that fell into the hands of somebody who was a competitor , you know , what would be the needed steps you'd take to offset that ?

Speaker #3: Yeah . I mean , we have our strategy is really around . We've talked about in the past really large portfolio of ores that we can accept .

Speaker #3: And the diversity of the way we're able to run our , our manufacturing plants . So , you know , we we don't see that as having any material impact on us .

Speaker #5: Terrific . Thank you guys .

Speaker #1: Thank you . One moment for our next question . Our next question comes from the line of Hasan Ahmad from Alembic Global Advisors .

Speaker #10: Morning , Denise and Shane . You know a question around the near-term Q4 sort of guidance . You guys gave . If I read correctly , you guys are guiding to sales declines in the high single digits to low teens .

Speaker #10: I'm just trying to reconcile that , you know , from the sounds of it , it seems you're looking for sort of maybe low single digit volume declines .

Speaker #10: And I'm just trying to reconcile that with , you know , one of your larger sort of Western competitors talking about , you know , 3 to 5% volume increments sequentially in , in Q4 .

Speaker #10: I mean , is this a geographic footprinting ? Is this a market share thing ? All of the above , you know , would love clarity around that .

Speaker #3: Yeah . Thanks . Thanks , Hassan . I mean , we have obviously from our from different competitors . We have different customers .

Speaker #3: We have strength in different regions . This is what we see where we are . And it's also , the strategy that we're executing .

Speaker #10: Understood . Understood . And as a follow up , you know , just , you know , your thoughts on anti involution . I mean , you know , since 2023 it seems 1.1 million tons of titanium dioxide capacity has been shuttered .

Speaker #10: And if I sort of take a look at some of these older subscale facilities in China , you know , they amount to maybe around 700,000 tons .

Speaker #10: So, I mean, what's your thought process around the potential shuttering of those 700,000 tons of capacity in China?

Speaker #3: Yeah , I mean , our current belief is that based on the research we've done , is that at least 300 kilotonnes will be permanently shut down .

Speaker #3: I would expect that more would shut down , especially as the the duties really come into into play . I mean , we've seen it in the US , we've seen it in Europe with that , with the duty structure .

Speaker #3: It really does . Protect the the Western players from the dumping of the Chinese producers . So , you know , at least 300 expected to be more .

Speaker #10: And it is just to clarify that 300 would be incremental to the 1.1 . That's already been announced . Correct .

Speaker #3: No , it would be inclusive .

Speaker #10: Got it . Thank you .

Speaker #1: Thank you . One moment for our next question . Our next question comes from the line of Lawrence Alexander from Jefferies .

Speaker #11: Hi . Could you roll up the comments around destocking and give some perspective as you look back on the year , how much of a net headwind do you think those kinds of dynamics might have had so that we can think about level setting for 2026 and 2027 ?

Speaker #3: Yeah , I mean , from the destocking standpoint , it really is on on both sides . Right ? So it's on the , the producer side as well as on the I would say that is really more kind of third quarter ish going maybe a little into the fourth quarter .

Speaker #3: And then, from a customer of value chain perspective, we're really seeing it in the markets where we serve going into the fourth quarter.

Speaker #3: But let me maybe add some color around the numbers .

Speaker #4: Yeah . Thanks , Laurence . I mean , obviously we've seen a volume impact this year since 24 to 25 . I think there's a balance there between the destocking we saw in the beginning part of the year and going into the end of the year .

Speaker #4: But offset by some really good diligence with the commercial team and gaining share . So quantifying such , I'd rather not get into it at this point , but really it's a balance between the share gains and really the destocking decrease .

Speaker #4: On the other side .

Speaker #11: And secondly , just on the HT side , can you give a an update on how . Important architectural coatings are to the overall profit pool for you ?

Speaker #3: Yeah , I mean , architectural coatings are very important for us . It's about I would say , 70% of our , you know , business .

Speaker #11: And then on on the refrigerant gases , can you give a sense for kind of what the next wave after opt in of , you know , refrigerants might look like ?

Speaker #11: And in particular , I guess I'm curious if there's eventually going to be a . Fluoro gas that is also , you know , sort of engineered to self-destruct .

Speaker #11: So , you know , to deal with the , you know , to basically , like , are there ways in Fluoropolymers and fluoro gases to deal with the forever chemicals by sort of , you know , crafting ones with the same functionality but also kind of a vulnerability in certain environments .

Speaker #3: Yeah . I mean , I would say our work around our next generation refrigerant , I mean , this , this , you know , in this business , we've continued to , you know , kind of reinvent the category .

Speaker #3: And our next generation refrigerant is along those lines . And we're going to continue to innovate even beyond that .

Speaker #11: Thank you .

Speaker #1: Thank you . One moment for our next question . Our next question comes from the line of Jeff Zekauskas from JP Morgan .

Speaker #12: Thanks very much . When you look at titanium dioxide market , is there a price erosion in the United States as you see it , or is it really confined to the other geographies ?

Speaker #3: Yeah , I mean , I can really , you know , talking about our portfolio , you know , as I said , we've had actually stability and pricing in in 2025 , in the US .

Speaker #3: You know , year or year there has been , a decline . But as we said this year , we've seen , you know , stability and we're moving forward with , you a price increase .

Speaker #12: And in India , do you think that a ruling on the stay of the stay of the duties will come in the fourth quarter , or will it take till next year , or really , nobody can tell .

Speaker #3: Our current intelligence and thinking is that it will happen by the end of the year.

Speaker #12: Okay , great . Thank you very much .

Speaker #1: Thank you . One moment for our next question . Our next question comes from the line of Vincent Andrews from Morgan Stanley .

Speaker #13: Thank you and good morning . You know , Denise , you sort of referenced earlier and that , you know , pathway to thrive is sort of being obscured by , you know , the challenging demand environment in terms of your profitability .

Speaker #13: So , you know , if you could just bridge us , you know , let's assume that the assets run reliably for a full year .

Speaker #13: How much volume growth do you need before you think we would see sort of this full blossoming of pathway to thrive in in the TiO2 segment from a margin perspective ?

Speaker #3: Yeah . I mean , I think that , you know , even if you just look at where we are now , I think a modest increase in demand will actually get us on on track .

Speaker #3: You know , we've had some operational issues which have hindered us in 2025 . So you're feeling positive about it going into 2026 ?

Speaker #13: Okay . And then Shane , if I could ask you , you mentioned a real estate strategy . So I don't know how significant this could be if you if you want to tell us about some assets you have that maybe you could completely or you're just looking to do sale leaseback kind of things and just get stuff off your balance sheet .

Speaker #13: But maybe just a little detail on that .

Speaker #4: Yeah, thanks. That was really one of a couple of things that I pointed to as we think about looking at our portfolio, our assets, and our infrastructure, and just thinking outside the box to unlock value.

Speaker #4: Right . So I pointed to obviously , our portfolio optimization

Speaker #4: Right . So I pointed to obviously , our portfolio optimization pillar , the critical monetize minerals , which Denise just mentioned during the call , as well as the real estate portfolio , as we look at strategic areas , I didn't want to get into the specifics , but I do think there's areas there that can help us from a cash flow perspective , going forward .

Speaker #4: So as to not to disrupt our current cash flow .

Speaker #13: Thank you .

Speaker #1: Thank you . One moment for our next question . Our next question comes from the line of Roger Spitz from Bank of America .

Speaker #3: Hi .

Speaker #14: Thanks very much and good morning . Can you give us a sense of the impact on industry pricing and volumes ? When Benicar materials sort of is liquidating their inventory , which we understand is impacted materially ?

Speaker #14: Q3 . And I'm thinking it's going to take a lot longer than one quarter . I presume , for them to liquidate their inventory .

Speaker #14: I mean , is this something that's going to take them , several quarters that we'll see this , this headwind ?

Speaker #4: Thank you . Yeah . We don't anticipate several quarters . You know , we really see this probably , you know , kind of coming through in the current quarter from that perspective .

Speaker #4: I would say just pricing and volume impacts . You know , obviously wasn't a material impact to us . And to the market , as we saw in Q3 , don't really want to get into the specific numbers right .

Speaker #14: Got it . And I know you don't know why these two technologies , but you will are very good with chloride process TiO2 .

Speaker #14: So you've got this announcement of billions buying menopause chloride process CO2 in the UK . And I'm wondering if you have guys have any sense of how different or similar the effectively ICI chloride process technology is to the Roman billions ?

Speaker #14: Who's using I understand the chloride process technology like , you know , Loma is trying to improve that PPG operations is getting their hands on the ICI chloride technology , something that will help them operate better in China .

Speaker #3: Yeah . I mean , first of all , this is still hasn't been settled . Right ? And there's there's there's there's many questions around that that transaction .

Speaker #3: You know , all I can say is we we understand the technologies and the industry , our technology is really the premium technology .

Speaker #3: And , you know , from a competitive standpoint , we don't see that as an issue .

Speaker #14: Thank you very much .

Speaker #1: Thank you. One moment for our next question. Our next question comes from the line of Aaron Rosenthal from JPM.

Speaker #15: Hey good morning and thank you for the time , especially for two JPM folks . I guess I was looking through the 10-q and I noticed the commentary on the government shutdown was pretty interesting .

Speaker #15: Seems like a lot of moving pieces , but is there any risks that implicate anything tied to HFO transition or anything on the EPA front ?

Speaker #15: Maybe as it relates to CSS broadly , or even in the context of addressing the legacy environmental liabilities , and then maybe if you could also help us frame the the magnitude of the potential court cash payments or collections that are at risk , tied to existing government contracts and many were exactly within your portfolio .

Speaker #15: This would be relevant to .

Speaker #3: Hi . Thanks . Thanks , Aaron . Yeah . Relative to the government shutdown and TS and HFO , as we see , you know , basically no impact .

Speaker #3: The market's already transitioned and you know , you don't see that . You know , that coming that changing really from the comments around the EPA .

Speaker #3: I mean we've talked about it before . Our fourth pillar around strengthening the long term , a lot of it is about advocacy .

Speaker #3: And , you know , we've had an open door , you know , talking with various agencies within the government . And for us , with it being shut down , it's kind of slowed that down a bit .

Speaker #3: So we're really excited and hoping that they reopen soon . So we can really continue to advance that pillar of our strategy .

Speaker #4: Yeah. And your last point there, as it relates to government, business, and any perspectives around accounts receivable or cash flow, we don't see any material impacts due to the shutdown.

Speaker #15: Okay . Thank you . And then maybe just take a look at the balance sheet and the upcoming maturities . So following the USD term loan being extended , you still have the , you know , Euro piece out there .

Speaker #15: And then the $27 million unsecured, which presumably will be addressed 12 months out from the May 27th maturity. Will you be approaching these refinancings piece by piece or all at once?

Speaker #15: And I guess , is there any willingness to issue new secured debt to refinance the existing unsecured bonds that .

Speaker #4: Yeah , thanks . You know , obviously we were out in the market extending the the criminal view on that side recently . Pretty proud of where it closed .

Speaker #4: Just given the hard market that we were facing . You know I think as we look at other , you no expirations coming up in that side .

Speaker #4: You know we'll continue to be opportunistic when we hit the market . If it allows on that side I would say with the near-term notes .

Speaker #4: Right . You mentioned refinancing that 12 months out . We will look for differing structures to ensure that those do not come up for , you know , to be current .

Speaker #4: So that's that's kind of where I will leave that , you know , from that perspective .

Speaker #15: Great . And then if I can speak one more and if you can just remind us what your current secured debt capacity is , maybe following that term loan exercise .

Speaker #4: Yeah . We feel very good about the the headroom on our secured side . On this side . You know , we have at least you two terms on that side .

Speaker #15: Thank you .

Speaker #1: Thank you . We have reached the end of our question and answer session . Thank you for joining the Comores third Quarter 2025 results conference call .