Q2 2026 UWM Holdings Corp Earnings Call

Speaker #1: Hi there, everyone. Welcome for join— and thank you for joining today's call. Appreciate everyone, and, again, we've got a lot of questions today, so I'm going to go through every one of them— at least I'm trying to get through every one of them.

Speaker #1: Hopefully make it as effective for everyone as possible. you know, before I get into that, obviously the second quarter perspective: operating income over $180 million EBITDA, adjusted EBITDA, along with about $40 billion business.

Speaker #2: Today, so I'm going to go through every one of them, at least I'm trying to get through every one of them. Hopefully make it as effective for everyone as

Speaker #1: We feel really good about UWM and the strength of the broker channel and the growth of the broker channel, so we feel great about where that's at.

Speaker #2: possible. You know, before I get into that, With,

Speaker #2: obviously the second quarter

Speaker #2: perspective, operating income, over $180

Speaker #1: Obviously, I've got so many questions about Oak Tree Partnership, the dividend, Two Harbors, the hedging. We're going to get through all that stuff, and I'll try to get through it.

Speaker #2: million EBITDA, adjusted

Speaker #2: EBITDA, along with about $40 billion business. We

Speaker #2: feel really good about

Speaker #2: UWM and the strength of the broker channel and the

Speaker #1: Before I get into it, I wanted to start with the overall picture from where we are at UWM. And the partnership with Oak Tree: we feel great about Oak Tree and the partnership that we have, and are creating, you know, Oak Tree is not just capital; they're strategic partners of ours.

Speaker #2: growth of the broker channel. So we feel great about where

Speaker #2: that's at. Obviously, I got so many questions

Speaker #2: about Oak Tree

Speaker #2: Partnership, the dividend, Two

Speaker #2: Harbors, the hedging. We're going to get through all—

Speaker #2: that stuff, and I'll try to get through it. Before I get

Speaker #2: To get into it, I wanted to start with the overall picture from where...

Speaker #1: They have MSR background, non-agency— like, they have a lot of mortgage-related— and they're betting on housing. And they're betting on UWM, and so we're excited about the partnership and what it's going to do for our business long term, and that's what we always think about is: how do we dominate long term?

Speaker #2: we are at UWM. And

Speaker #2: the partnership with Oak Tree. We feel great about

Speaker #2: Oak Tree and the partnership that we

Speaker #2: have. And are creating, you know, Oak Tree is not

Speaker #2: just capital, they're strategic partners

Speaker #2: of ours. They have MSR

Speaker #2: background, non-agency, like they have a lot of

Speaker #2: mortgage-related, and they're betting on housing. And

Speaker #1: The mortgage market's been tough the last 5 years now. And UWM's consistently made operating income, and Two Harbors recognized the strength of our business and says, "Hey, how can we take this to the next level?" And from a strategic perspective, we see a lot of the same vision about the brokers, about the operating model and infrastructure that we've built, to help the independent mortgage channel grow and dominate.

Speaker #2: They're betting on UWM. And so we're

Speaker #2: excited about the

Speaker #2: partnership and what it's going to do for our business.

Speaker #2: long term. And that's what we always think about is how do

Speaker #2: we dominate long term?

Speaker #2: The mortgage market's been tough the last five

Speaker #2: years now. And UWM's

Speaker #2: consistently made operating income

Speaker #2: and Two Harbors are recognized the strength of our

Speaker #2: business and says, hey, how can we take this to the next

Speaker #1: And that's really what we're about here at UWM, and housing and mortgages are going to be here and be strong. It's a huge market, and it's been a tough 4 or 5 years, and we expect the next 4 or 5 years to be significantly, significantly better.

Speaker #2: level? And from a strategic

Speaker #2: From our perspective, we see a lot of the same vision.

Speaker #2: about the brokers, about the operating

Speaker #2: model and infrastructure that we

Speaker #2: built to help the independent mortgage channel

Speaker #2: grow and dominate. And that's really what

Speaker #1: And in the tough years, we still are successful and profitable at UWM, as Oak Tree points out many times when we spend time with them.

Speaker #2: we're about here at UWM and

Speaker #2: Housing and mortgages are going to be here and be...

Speaker #2: strong. It's a huge market and it's been a

Speaker #1: And now it's like, how do we take it to a whole nother level? And so the balance sheet is fortified, the debt ratios that people are concerned about are non-question anymore, and we're ready to go forward in a really, really strong way.

Speaker #2: tough four or five years and we expect the

Speaker #1: 4 to 5 years, and we expect the next 4 to 5.

Speaker #1: years to be significantly, significantly

Speaker #1: better. And in the tough years, we still are

Speaker #1: successful and profitable at UWM, as Oak Tree

Speaker #1: points out many times, we've spent time with

Speaker #1: them and now it's like, how

Speaker #1: So with that being said, I know there's AI questions, there's dividend questions, there's— so let me just go into all these questions and hopefully answer all of them.

Speaker #1: do we take it to a whole other level? And so the balance sheet is fortified, the

Speaker #1: debt ratios that people are concerned about

Speaker #1: are non-questioned anymore,

Speaker #1: I'm going to try to mention a couple people that asked the questions, but to be fair, I think we got the same questions from about 15 different people, so I won't try to— I won't do too many.

Speaker #1: and we're ready to go forward in a really, really

Speaker #1: strong way. So with that being said, I know there's

Speaker #1: AI questions, there's dividend questions, there's—

Speaker #1: let me just go into all these questions and

Speaker #1: But, you know, let's just start, I guess, with the dividend. I got some questions. Jason Stewart, Bose Jeff— I mean, I got a people, so I'm not going to name everyone's name that asked the question, but the basic question is, "Hey Matt, you know, UWM, why are we cutting the dividend now?" And so the first part, you know, you know, how we got here, you know, you know, a lot of things tied to the dividend.

Speaker #1: hopefully answer all of them. I'm going to try to

Speaker #1: Mention a couple of people who asked the questions.

Speaker #1: but to be fair, I

Speaker #1: I think we got the same questions from about...

Speaker #1: 15 different people, so I won't

Speaker #1: try to— I won't do too many. But, you know,

Speaker #1: let's just start, I guess, with the dividend. I got

Speaker #1: some questions. Jason Stewart,

Speaker #1: Bose, Jeff— I mean, I got a couple, so I'm not going to name

Speaker #1: everyone's name that asked the question. But the

Speaker #1: basic question is, "Hey Matt, you

Speaker #1: We've always rewarded our shareholders, and we feel good about rewarding our shareholders, and we're going to always look at ways to do that. The decision to cut it right now is just capital allocation.

Speaker #1: know, UWM, why are we cutting the dividend

Speaker #1: now?" And so the the dividend now?

Speaker #1: first part, you know, you know, how we

Speaker #1: got here, you know, you know, a lot of

Speaker #1: things tied to the

Speaker #1: You know, right now our— after this transaction, after the $2 billion plus, which is the largest capital raise I think in mortgage history, we're going to have over $3 billion of equity.

Speaker #1: dividend. We've always rewarded our shareholders,

Speaker #1: and we feel good about rewarding our shareholders, and we're

Speaker #1: going to always look at ways to do

Speaker #1: that. The decision to cut it right

Speaker #1: now is just capital

Speaker #1: And so how do we continue to build on that going forward? The dividend, obviously, comes— takes out from that, and we made the decision that the right thing for our business, for the long term, is to continue to build up equity, continue to solve for the debt ratios, which are significantly— are well below industry norms now with the capital infusion.

Speaker #1: allocation. You know, right now our— after this

Speaker #1: transaction, after the $2 billion plus, which is the

Speaker #1: largest capital raise I think in mortgage

Speaker #1: history, we're going to have

Speaker #1: over $3 billion of

Speaker #1: equity. And so how do we continue to build on

Speaker #1: that going

Speaker #1: forward? The dividend, obviously, comes— takes out from that, and we made the decision that the right thing for our business for the long term is.

Speaker #1: And run the business the most effective way. Will there be special dividends down the road? Possibly. Will there be— will we go back to regular dividend?

Speaker #1: Possibly. Once again, we look at that stuff every single quarter, but the reality is, you know, liquidity matters. Equity matters. And we have the best operating business and infrastructure.

Speaker #1: Brokers to grow and dominate. And so if I can make sure the capital and liquidity are in a great position, then all the rest takes care of itself.

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Speaker #1: And once again, it's been a tough 4 or 5 years in the mortgage industry. The next 4 or 5 years are going to be significantly better.

Speaker #1: We feel like our hedging policies are much stronger now, but also we're not acquiring another company that has an MSR book like that. At least that's not the plan of now, and we know how to handle it differently going forward.

Speaker #1: Oak Tree believes in that. They believe in housing. They believe in UWM. And so do we. And so do I, obviously. And so that's kind of how I think about the dividend.

Speaker #1: It's just the right time to pause that and suspend that process, and then we'll always evaluate every quarter with our board of directors and see what's best.

Speaker #1: So I think that covers it. It was a trans-specific event. It's not a reflection of our operating business, by the way, at all. As you guys know, as I pointed out at the beginning of the call, 160 to 200 million dollars of adjusted EBITDA almost every quarter consistently.

Speaker #1: But right now, I see a going forward path of, let's retain equity, retain earnings, continue to build, continue to grow, and take advantage of the market that we have in front of us.

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Speaker #1: All right. Let's see. Two Harbors, I guess we can talk Two Harbors, a couple questions on, you know, the transaction, so let me just— did that recreate the need for capital?

Speaker #1: A little bit higher than that if you look at the numbers, but we’re consistently making that much money. What has management learned from hedge loss?

Speaker #1: I kind of covered this one. Unique circumstance—traditionally, we don't hedge MSRs at UWM. Definitely, with the size book we have right now, we wouldn't be hedging MSRs.

Speaker #1: So I don't really look at it that way. And so here's what I'll say: the way we look at it is, you know, how do we make sure we have a good amount of equity?

Speaker #1: You have not entered any numbers. Goodbye. Acting against the Two Harbors transaction, the market moved against us, and it's a one-time event that won't happen again.

Speaker #1: We have good ratios, and we have a fortified balance sheet. So that's a big part of why we have the capital raise. And it's not just capital, because if it was just capital, and I could put money in myself, or we could get random people put capital.

Speaker #1: This was a strategic partnership with Oak Tree because of their MSR background. They have a whole— and also they're just— their knowledge and their sophistication around capital markets, which will help us in so many ways.

Speaker #1: And so we're excited about the partnership. Now, the Two Harbors transaction, you know, it definitely was unfortunate in how it happened. And, you know, see some litigation and some things that they did inappropriately, and we'll go through that process when that time comes.

Speaker #1: However, I'm not going to spend my time talking about that. What I'm going to talk about is that Two Harbors transaction, you know, was one of the strategies of helping from a cash, liquidity, and equity perspective.

Speaker #2: next four or five years to be significantly,

Speaker #2: significantly better. And in the tough

Speaker #2: years, we still are successful and profitable.

Speaker #2: UWM, as Oak Tree points out, many times we've spent...

Speaker #1: And when that did not go, the way we expected, we had another option. And it's great to have options. And once again, Oak Tree wrote a massive-sized check to be part of this, and to be next to me and UWM and help us grow together.

Speaker #2: time with them. And

Speaker #2: now it's like how do we take it to a whole other level? And

Speaker #2: so the balance sheet is fortified, the debt ratios that people are concerned

Speaker #2: about are non-question

Speaker #2: anymore. And we're ready to go forward.

Speaker #2: a really, really strong way. So with that being

Speaker #1: And so you know, if the deal would have closed, maybe, you know, the Oak Tree thing would not have happened as quickly. The silver lining is Oak Tree has so much better partnership for us than Two Harbors or anything else would have been.

Speaker #2: said, I know there's AI questions, there's dividend

Speaker #2: questions, so let me just go into all these

Speaker #2: questions and hopefully answer all of them. I'm

Speaker #2: going to try to mention a couple of people that asked the

Speaker #2: questions, but to be

Speaker #2: fair, I think we got the same questions from

Speaker #1: And so I think of it as a long-term upside for UWM, the way it all played out. And we'll go through the litigation process with Two Harbors and Cross Country and some of the inappropriate things that happened in that deal at that time.

Speaker #2: about 15 different people.

Speaker #2: So I won't try, I won't do too many, but you

Speaker #2: Let's just start, I guess, with the...

Speaker #2: dividend. I got some questions. Jason Stewart,

Speaker #2: Bose, Jeff, I mean, I got a people, so

Speaker #2: I'm not going to name everyone's name that asked the questions,

Speaker #2: but the basic question is, hey

Speaker #1: So I think that covers Two Harbors. I'm trying to think if there's anything else that we could submit other Two Harbor questions. Let me go into the hedge loss, because I think that's a handful of other questions here.

Speaker #2: Matt, you know, UWM, why are we cutting

Speaker #2: And so the first part, you know, you

Speaker #2: know, how we got here, you know, you

Speaker #2: know, a lot of things tied to the

Speaker #2: dividend. We've always rewarded our

Speaker #1: Can you please explain the hedge loss? What caused it? How investors should think about it? So listen, hedging in general, in the mortgage industry, is expensive.

Speaker #2: shareholders and we feel good about rewarding our

Speaker #2: shareholders and we're going to always look at ways to do

Speaker #2: that. The decision to

Speaker #2: Cut it right now; it's just...

Speaker #1: And it's something I actually don't believe in, in general. We don't have— not ever hedged our MSR. I almost say never. We don't traditionally hedge our MSRs.

Speaker #2: capital allocation. You know, right now our, after

Speaker #2: this transaction, after the $2 billion plus,

Speaker #2: which is the largest capital raise I think

Speaker #2: in mortgage history,

Speaker #1: Our origination machine is so big and strong that if the rates drop, you'll lose MSR value and equity, but you'll do so much more business that you're good.

Speaker #2: we're going to have over $3

Speaker #2: billion of equity. And so how do we continue to

Speaker #2: build on that going

Speaker #2: forward? The dividend

Speaker #1: And if rates go up, your MSR values go up, and you do less originations, but your equity goes up. That's kind of how we've always played it.

Speaker #2: obviously comes takes out from that and we made the decision that the right thing for our business for the long term is.

Speaker #1: Well, when you're going through and acquiring a company like Two Harbors, and a massive MSR book, then our MSR book became double the size of what we've always managed.

Speaker #1: And therefore, it created a little more risk. So when we did put a hedge on to protect against that risk, and then a lot of things happened.

Speaker #1: Let's just be real with whether it's a war, a lot of different things that happened that created the 10-year to go up, and then obviously the Two Harbors transaction went away.

Speaker #1: And so a confluence of events that created a hedge loss. We hit a certain risk threshold that I said, "Hey, listen, we're not going to continue hedging regardless," because we didn't want to have more of equity drain.

Speaker #1: And we took the hedge off. And of course, that's the strategy that we've always had is, let's not hedge. Let's run the business effectively.

Speaker #1: Once again, Oak Tree has a strategic perspective on this, and I'll go through that with them after this process. And whether we hedged going forward or not, but once you have $3 billion equity, you're really not at a risk of the MSR values go down 400 million for this quarter or go up 400 million.

Speaker #1: It's less relevant. But when you're hovering around 1.5 billion or 2 billion, it becomes a little bit more relevant. And so that became an issue.

Speaker #1: We hedged and it was a one-time event, to be honest with you, because of Two Harbors, you know, we were overhedged, if you think of it that way, protecting against the Two Harbors transaction.

Speaker #1: The market moved against us, and it's a one-time event that won't happen again. We feel like our hedging policies are much stronger now, but also we're not acquiring another company that has an MSR book like that.

Speaker #1: At least that's not the plan of now. And we know how to handle it differently going forward. So I think that covers it. It was a transaction-specific event.

Speaker #1: It's not a reflection of our operating business, by the way, at all. As you guys know, as I pointed out at the beginning of the call, 160 to 200 million of adjusted EBITDA almost every quarter consistently, a little bit higher than that if you look at the numbers.

Speaker #1: But we're consistently making that much money. What a management learned from hedge loss. I kind of covered this one. Unique circumstance, traditionally we don't hedge MSRs at UWM.

Speaker #1: Definitely with the size book we have right now, we wouldn't be hedging MSRs. At that level. And once again, the market moved in a certain way, and it was an event that obviously unfortunate and not planned and not expected, but at the same time, we're looking forward now and know what our business is about.

Speaker #1: And operating business is great. Stronger. I even looked at the balance sheet from 2020 and '21. I think $3 billion is kind of the high watermark, and we're going to be at that number when this capital raise is done.

Speaker #1: And at the same time, after another quarter or two of earnings, as we're going to have, it will continue to grow. And with no dividend, that will make our balance sheet strong.

Speaker #1: Liquidity strong. And then just let's continue to build and dominate, helping independent mortgage operate in this housing market with AI, all the things that we've really been building for years and years here at UWM can now go to the next level.

Speaker #1: So I think that covers those. Let me see if there's any other ones tied up. So let's talk now. There's a bunch of Oak Tree questions.

Unique circumstance, traditionally, we don't hedge uh, msrs at UWM definitely with the size book. We have right now, we wouldn't be hedging msrs, um, at that level, and once again the market moved in a certain way, and there's an, uh, an event that, uh, obviously unfortunate and not planned and not expected, but at the same time, um, we're looking forward now and and know what our business is about and operating business is great. The balance sheet is fortified and it's never been stronger. Uh I haven't looked at the balance sheet from 2020 and 21. I think 3 billion is kind of the high water mark and we're going to be at that number when this Capital raises done and at the same time, after another quarter or 2 of earnings, as we're going to have, um, it will continue to grow and with no dividend that will make our balance sheet strong.

Speaker #1: Obviously, so let me talk about that. Talked a lot about it already, but why was Oak Tree the right partner for UWM at this point of the cycle?

Pretty strong and then just let's continue to build and dominate helping independent mortgage operate in this housing market with AI. All the things that we've really been building for years and years here at UWM can now go to the next level.

Speaker #1: So first, Oak Tree has a great background, great reputation from their leadership to also just their mortgage knowledge and their housing belief. So they believe in housing.

So I think that covers those. Let me see if there's any other ones side. So let's talk. Now, there's a bunch of oak tree questions, obviously. So let me talk about that.

We've talked a lot about it already, but

why was oak tree?

Speaker #1: They believe in UWM. And we partnered together. Once again, my background has always been, "Hey, I'll just do it myself. We don't really bring outside parties in." And that was really the path we were going till we started having some in-depth conversation with Oak Tree.

Speaker #1: And I realized the strategic benefit of bringing in someone next to me. And so instead of Matt putting in a billion or more, Matt will put in 500, 550 million.

Speaker #1: These guys put in a billion, billion five, and that's kind of how we get to $2 billion dollars. And so that was the strategy there, but it's strategic money.

Speaker #1: It's not just capital. We can get capital from anyone, but strategic partner that we're going to have a member or two on the board as well.

Speaker #1: They're going to have some different conversations, and they have different belief systems on things that maybe can help us. They also believe heavily, heavily in the strategy and the vision of the UWM, the broker channel, the independent market.

Speaker #1: And I wouldn't be aligned with someone that didn't believe strategically in the same thing from housing, from the infrastructure we've built for brokers, the AI investments that we're making, and continue to make.

Speaker #1: And so they're aligned with us and how we're doing things. And so I think it's really been a perfect match. They understand the cycles of the industry as well.

The right partner for WM at this point of the cycle. So first oak tree has a great background great reputation from their their leadership to also just their mortgage knowledge and their housing belief. So they believe in housing. They believe in UWM and we partnered together. Once again, my background has always been, hey, I'll just do it myself. We don't really bring outside parties in and that was really the path. We were going until we started having some in-depth conversations with oak tree and I realized the Strategic Benefit of bringing in someone next to me. And so instead of Matt putting in a billion or more, Matt will put in 500, 550 million. These guys put in a billion billion 5, and that's kind of what I would get to 2 billion dollars. And so that was the strategy there, but it's strategic money. It's not just Capital. We can get capital from anyone, but strategic partner. Um that we're going to have a a member or 2 on the board as well. They're going to have some different conversations and they have different belief systems on things that maybe can help us. They also believe heavily heavily in the strategy and the vision of

Speaker #1: They understand that in most cycles, you know, most mortgage markets, it's every six, seven years, it's 15-plus trillion dollars of mortgages. And, you know, the last five have not been that.

Speaker #1: So they know the good years of the two, three, four trillion dollar years are most likely coming in the next three, four, five years.

Speaker #1: So they understand that right now is an amazing time to be partnered with UWM. And I understand that as well, which is why I put a lot of money in as well.

Speaker #1: And, you know, obviously I'm the biggest shareholder and also big in on this deal as well. So we believe in the market. We believe in UWM.

Speaker #1: And Oak Tree is a great partner in that respect. So let's see. Let me see if I can cover more Oak Tree. There's a lot of Oak Tree questions here.

Speaker #1: So you know, some people look at the size and cost of transaction and think, you know, is this how do we think about this from a strategic benefit?

The UWM the broker Channel, The Independent market and I wouldn't be aligned with someone that didn't believe strategically in the same thing from housing from the infrastructure we built for Brokers the AI Investments that we're making, and continue to make. And so they there are aligned with us and how we're doing things. And so I think it's really been a perfect match. Um, they understand the cycles of the industry as well. They understand that, and most Cycles, you know, most workers markets. It's every 6 7 years is 15 plus trillion dollars of mortgages and, you know, the last 5 have not been that. So they know the grid years of the 2 3 4 trillion years are most likely coming in the next 3, 4 5 years. So they understand that right now is an amazing time to be partnered with UWM. And I understand that as well, which is why I put a lot of money in as well. And, you know, obviously, I'm the biggest shareholder and also big in on this deal, as well. So, we believe in the market, we believe in UWM and, uh, elk trees are great partner in that respect.

um,

So, let's see.

Speaker #1: Is this you know, Oak Tree is getting a great deal is what people say here, which they are, and they should get a great deal.

Let me see if I can cover more Oak Tree. There are a lot of Oak Tree questions here. Um,

so,

Speaker #1: And we're happy for them when Oak Tree makes a lot of money. So does every shareholder, so does UWM, everyone's going to win together.

You know.

Speaker #1: And so I don't begrudge anyone for making a lot of money next to me. I wish them all the best, along with everyone. And when the warrants become very profitable, I guess one of the questions kind of ties to when the warrants become very profitable, I think everyone that owns shares today will make a lot of money as well.

Speaker #1: And so the way we look at that is, yeah, there's a lot of different pieces to it. And Oak Tree wrote a one-and-a-half billion dollar check.

Some people look at the size and cost of interaction and and and think, you know, is this how do we think about this from a Strategic Benefit? Is this. Um, you know, oak tree is getting a great deal, is what people say here, which they are, and they should get a great deal and we're happy for them. When oak tree makes a lot of money. So does every shareholder, so does UWM, everyone's going to win together? And so I I I don't I don't uh, begrudge anyone from

Speaker #1: I'm putting in up to 550 million dollars. I believe that that's an opportunity for everyone to succeed. And it's putting the common shareholders, the debt holders, all in a better long-term position.

Speaker #1: And that's my job, to run the business the most effective for the long term, not for whatever today is, August 6th. You know, it's not about August 6th.

Speaker #1: It's about '27, '28, 2030, 2032, and anyone that's partnered with us, Oak Tree being one of them, me being a big shareholder, and a lot of the shareholders on the call and people that pay attention to what we talk about, everyone's going to win together.

Speaker #1: And it's about UWM and the operating platform, the AI, the technology that we've built, to dominate for the long term. And now our balance sheet is fortified and integrated.

Speaker #1: So yes, Oak Tree is getting a great deal, and I'm happy for them. And when they make a boatload of money and are very successful, so will most of our shareholders and a lot of our shareholders will make even more because of based on where the stock is today.

Speaker #1: And so excited about everyone's winning together, and we're going to continue to win going forward. Let's see. You know, so I think there's a question here about debt ratios and equity.

Speaker #1: And so, you know, the key thing is the total equity increases from a billion to roughly $3 billion and growing, right? And the non-funding debt equity to equity declines from it was, you know, with the end of the quarter, it jumped up to a really high number because of the hedging and the negative we had in the second quarter to over 5X, or I think it's 5.6.

Better long-term position. And that's my job to run the business. The most effective for the long term. Not for whatever today is August 6th. You know, it's not about August 6th. It's about 27, 28, 2030 2032 and anyone that's partnered with us oak tree, being 1 of them, me being a big shareholder, and a lot of the shareholders on the call and people that pay attention to what we talked about, everyone's going to win together and it's about UWM and the operating platform the AI, the technology that we built to dominate for the long term and now our balance sheet is fortified in a great. So yes, oak tree is getting a great deal and I'm happy for them and when they make a boatload of money and are very successful. So will most of our shareholders, and a lot of our shareholders will make even more because of based on where the stock is today, and so excited about everyone's winning together and we're going to continue to win going forward.

Um,

let's see. Um, you know, so I think there's a question here about

Speaker #1: But now we're down to 1.2X. So 1.2 is well below the industry norms. Most people operate 1.5 to 2, maybe a little higher than that, but we'll call it 1.5 to 2.

Speaker #1: We're well below it, and we have plenty of room to grow. And so we feel really good about where we are right now from a debt to equity ratios.

Speaker #1: And overall, our business and balance sheet. So the key thing for me here on the Oak Tree, the two big question kind of talks about the $2 billion capital raise and how that handles for debt ratios and equity.

Um, debt ratios and equity. And so, you know, the the key thing is the total Equity increases from a billion to roughly 3 billion dollars and growing, right? And um, the non funding debt Equity Equity declines from. It was, you know, with, with the end of the quarter, it it jumped up to a really high number because of the, the hedging and the and the negative we had in the second quarter to over 5x, or I think it was 5.6, but now we're down to 1.2. So 1.2 is well below the industry Norms. Most people operate, 1 5 to 2, maybe a little higher than that, but we'll call it 1 5 to 2. We're well below it and we have plenty of

A room to grow.

Speaker #1: And I think in general, it's a real big positive. Anyone wants to take a step back and says, "Is the company stronger today than it was six months or a year ago?" Anyone would say yes.

Speaker #1: Everyone would say yes. And that's what I think about right now is how are we positioned for the future? We are never been better positioned, not because of just the equity and capital and liquidity, which of course is a big part of it, but also the Oak Tree strategic partnership and all that they bring to the table.

Speaker #1: And then on top of that, we are the best and biggest mortgage retainer in America. We brought servicing in-house. We are dominating in that respect.

Speaker #1: You know, I know there aren't that many questions about all these things operating-wise, which I understand why. But that's okay. But operating-wise, you know, we have a massive motor on our business.

Speaker #1: The broker channel is growing, and the infrastructure that we are built, we've built and the AI we built to help power them to grow even further.

Speaker #1: And waiting for not only big years, because those will happen, but just the normal mortgage years and a traditional mortgage year, even these bad years, we've been doing really well operating income-wise.

And so, we feel really good about where we are right now from a debt to equity ratios. Um, and um, overall our business and balance sheet. So, the key thing for me here on the oak tree, the 2 question, kind of talks about the 2 billion dollar Capital raise and how that handles her debt ratios and and equity. And I think in general, it's a real big positive. Anyone wants to take a step back and says, is the company stronger today than it was 6 months, or a year ago? Anyone would say? Yes, everyone would say yes. And that's what I think about right now. Is, how are we positioned for the future? We are never been better positioned, not because of just the equity and capital and liquidity, which of course, is a big part of it, but also the oak tree strategic partnership and all that they bring the table. And then on top of that, we are the best and biggest Mortgage. Regenerator in America, we brought servicing in house, we are dominating in that respect you know I know there aren't that many questions about all these things operating wise. Which I understand why, but that's okay. But operating wise, you know, we have a massive motor on our business. The broker channel is growing

Speaker #1: And so we feel really good about the business, and we're where we are at right now. Let me see. So I guess there's a couple of people asking what Mikhail Groberman's and, you know, a couple of people asked about why choose preferred equity with warrants.

and the infrastructure that we are built, we've built in the AI, we built to help power them to grow even further and waiting for not only big years because those will happen but just the normal mortgage years and a traditional mortgage year even these bad years we've been doing really well operating income wise. And so we feel really good about the business and we where where we are at right now.

Speaker #1: Instead of issuing common stock. So first off, a large issue, you know, common issuance at current trading levels would create, you know, significant and immediate dilution.

Let me see. Um,

Speaker #1: And we can talk about dilution you know, the preferred equity rates, you know, permanent capital in our business is a better upside for the business, in our belief system.

Speaker #1: The warrants do create dilution, as people will ask about, and I understand that. And to be honest with you, on the dilution, because I know there's some dilution questions, it's definitely something we had to weigh heavily.

Speaker #1: You know, however, the long-term benefit of us making significantly more money and building this business significantly bigger is the right decision for all shareholders, including myself.

Speaker #1: And so although the dilution is real, dilution is only really real at a high level when the warrants are in the money. And the average of the warrants are $4, which is significantly higher than our stock price.

Speaker #1: And a lot of the warrants are over at $6. And so that's how I look at it. You know, this structure, balance is near-term capital, with long-term shareholder upside.

Speaker #1: And, you know, we do not want to, you know, dilute the common shareholders more than necessary. And we feel great about where we're at right now and about what's going to happen going forward.

so, uh, I, I guess there's a couple overman's, uh, and, you know, a couple people asked about why choose preferred Equity with warrants instead of issuing common stock. So, um, first off a large issue. Uh, you know, Common issuance at current trade levels would create, you know, significant and immediate dilution and we can talk about dilution. Um, you know, the preferred Equity REITs, you know, permanent capital in our business is, is a better upside for the business and our belief system, the warrants do create dilution as people will ask about, and I understand that and to be honest with you on the delusion because I know there's some delusion questions. It's definitely, uh, something we had to weigh heavily, you know. Um, however, the long-term benefit of us, making significantly more money and building this business significantly, bigger is the right decision for all shareholders, including myself. And so, although the dilution is real, the solution is only really real at a high level. When the warrants are in the money and the average of the warrants are 4.

Speaker #1: Let's see. I think I kind of covered the dilution question there too, but obviously can have no more. And by the way, I know I'm answering all these and I appreciate all the questions.

Speaker #1: You know, after the call, whether it's me or our investor relations team, or even the people from Oak Tree, we're all available to talk through anyone's thoughts and strategy on all aspects of the business.

Which is significantly higher than our stock price and a lot of the warranty of it $6. And so that's how I look at it. You know, this structure balance is near-term capital with long-term shareholder upside. And, you know, we did not want to, you know, dilute the common shoulders, more than necessary. And we feel great about where we're at right now and about what's going to happen going forward. Um,

I see.

Speaker #1: We feel, once again, I continue to tell you, I feel excellent about the business, the fortified balance sheet, and the long-term strategic benefit of the Oak Tree partnership and where we're going together.

Speaker #1: Let's Let's see . Okay . So here's something that's interesting . How much interest savings does the transaction create ? So a lot of people ask there's another question that ties to , you know , the the amount of the coupon that oak tree is receiving .

I think I kind of covered the dilution question there, too. But obviously, you can have no more and by the way, I know I'm answering all these and I appreciate all the questions, you know, after the call whether it's me or our investor relations team or even the people from Oak Tree, we're all available to to, to talk through any anybody's thoughts and strategies on all aspects of the business we feel. Once again, I continue to tell you feel excellent about the business. Um, fortified balance sheet in the long term, Strategic Benefit of the oak tree partnership and where we're going together.

Um,

Speaker #1: And so , you know , right now , a lot of the money that we're borrowing is between 6 and 8% . We'll call it .

Let's see. Okay, um,

Speaker #1: And yes , the the coupon on the , on this new partnership is 10% . But so it's not 10% on 1.65 billion to start because remember , in the question that you're basically asking here is , you know , we are saving about $100 million by paying down MSR lines and paying off other things from interest perspective .

Speaker #1: And then we're paying out 165 million in this example , on a , on a , on a 10% . And so it's not truly $165 million more of expense , you know , because you have to net out the savings that we would be having because we are paying from a capital perspective right now on borrowing money against our MSR lines or other other liquidity that we have .

Speaker #1: So the expense will go down roughly $100 million . But the we're going to pay about 100 , $165 million for the pref money .

Speaker #1: So I just want to make sure that that's clear . So the question is talking about interest savings . Yes , there are interest savings .

Speaker #1: I don't really look at I look at it as a . Net number as it's slightly more expensive in that perspective , but not the full amount .

Something that's interesting how much interest savings does a transaction create. So, a lot of people ask that there's another question that ties to, you know, the, the amount of, uh, the coupon that oak tree is is receiving. So, you know, right now, a lot of the money that we're borrowing is between 6 and 8%, we'll call it. And yes, the, the coupon on the on this new partnership is 10%, but it's so it's not 10% on 1.65 billion to start. Because remember, in in the question that you're basically asking here is, you know, we are saving about a hundred million dollars by paying down MSR lines and paying off other things from an interest perspective and then we're paying out 165 million in, in this example, on a, on a, on a 10%. And so, it's not truly a 165 million dollars, more of expense, you know, because you have to net out. The savings that we would be having because we are paying from a capital perspective right now, um, on borrowing money against our MSR lines, um, or other C. Other liquidity that we have. So, with interest expense, will go down roughly

Speaker #1: And it's not interest savings overall , although it might look like that Let me see if there's other questions . A lot of oak tree stuff .

Speaker #1: So Well let me hit this . I kind of talked . The next one is about total potential dilution from the warrants . And so once again there's 330 million total warrants , 165 million warrants that can be exercised at $2 , which is obviously higher than the stock prices today .

A hundred million dollars, but then we're going to pay about $165 million for the money. So, I just want to make sure that that's clear. So, the question is talking about interest savings. Yes, there are interest savings. I don't really look at it; I look at it as a net number, as slightly more expensive from that perspective, but not the full amount, and it's not interest savings overall, although it might look like that.

um,

let me see.

If there's other questions, a lot of oak tree stuff. Um,

so,

Speaker #1: Most people won't exercise the warrants until it's well above $2 . In my perspective . So I believe that those warrants are probably in the money more closer to 3 or 350 , when people will exercise them .

Speaker #1: And then the other half or 165 million warrants are at $6 . So same concept there that it'll be probably exercised when they're higher than $6 .

Speaker #1: And so that's to answer that question , just I don't think there's much more to it than , than just I think someone was just asking for clarification .

Speaker #1: There . Jeff Adelson both Jorge . Michael . I mean , a bunch of people asked about Emma . So this is a little bit off of oak tree .

Speaker #1: Now happen . What happens to the MSR book from here ? If rates fall sharply ? And so here's what I say . Rates fall sharply .

Speaker #1: That's a win for our mortgage business . Right ? The MSR , just like ours . Everyone else will get will have a write down if you have a massive MSR rates drop when rates drop , though , our origination machine will kick in at a high , high level .

when we hit this, I kind of talked to the next 1 was about total potential dilution from the warrants. And so, once again, there's 330 million total warrants 165 million. Warrants that can be, uh, exercised at 2 dollars which, um, is obviously higher than the stock prices today. Most people won't exercise the warrants until it's it's well above 2 dollars with my perspective. So I believe that those warrants are probably in the money, more closer to 3 or 350, when people will exercise them and then the other half are 165 million, warrants are at $6. So same concept there, that'll be probably exercise when they're higher uh than 6 dollars. And so that's to answer that question, just, I don't think there's much more to it than than just, I think someone was just asking for clarification there. Um, Jeff absen both George, Mikel a bunch of people asked about Emma. So what's this is a little bit off of 03? Now,

Happened. What happens to the MSR book from here? If rates fall sharply? And so here's what I say. Um, rates fall sharply,

Speaker #1: And so if that happens , that's why I always kind of talked about earlier about the natural hedge and how we've always run our businesses .

Speaker #1: We don't put a hedge on our MSR portfolio . We sit there and wait . If rates go up , our MSR are worth more .

Speaker #1: Rates go down . We do a lot more loans . And so it's a win win for our business . The only reason that was different in this situation was because of the two harbor transaction of having a double the size of MSR book .

That's a win for our mortgage business, right? The MSR, just like ours, that everyone else will get, will have a write-down if you have a massive MSR when rates drop. When rates drop, though, our origination machine will kick in at a high, high level. And so, if that happens, that's why I always kind of talked about earlier the natural hedge and how we always run our businesses.

Speaker #1: And obviously a war happening in a couple of different things happening all at once . And our equity levels being too low . So the confluence of those three things created us to hedge at the level that we did .

Speaker #1: And so I guess the long way of saying it would be a really great thing if rates drop sharply and we'll do a whole lot of loans .

Speaker #1: You know , obviously we did 40 billion in a really tough mortgage market and 45 billion in the quarter before , when rates were slightly lower .

Speaker #1: But overall , our origination machine can handle 250 to $300 billion . As we stand today , if not more . And so I hope rates drop sharply and we have to deal with MSR .

We don't put a hedge on our MSR portfolio. We sit there and wait. If rates go up, our MSRs are worth more. If rates go down, we do a lot more loans, and so it's a win-win for our business. The only reason that was different in this situation was because of the Two Harbors happening all at once and our equity levels being too low. So the confluence of those three things created us to hedge at the level that we did. I guess that's the long way of saying...

Speaker #1: Write down . That'll be a fine problem to have , because the origination machine will kick in . We'll do 60 , 70 , $80 billion in a quarter at big margins .

Speaker #1: And the brokers will grow , will grow , and the overall shareholder base will be excited and positive about that , about that opportunity .

Speaker #1: So we'll see what happens . We've we've been talking about rates dropping for a while . They haven't happened . When they do , we'll be ready .

Speaker #1: All right . Let's see Is becoming a servicing focused . No , no . You know you know we're like I said I talk about it as we're we're big in housing .

It would be a really great thing, if rates drop sharply. Um, and we'll do a whole lot of loans. Uh, you know, obviously, we did 40 billion in a really tough mortgage market and 45 billion in the quarter before when Rachel was slightly lower. But overall, our relationship machine can handle 20050 to 300 billion dollars as we stand today, if not more. Um, and so I hope rates drop sharply and we have to deal with the MSR write down. That would be a fine problem to have because the origination machine will kick in. We'll do 60 70, 80 billion dollars in a quarter at Big margins. And the Brokers will grow will grow and the overall, uh, shareholder base will be excited and positive about that about that opportunity. So we'll see what happens. We we've been talking about rates dropping for a while, they haven't happened. Uh, when they do, we'll be ready. Um,

Speaker #1: We're big in AI . We're big in infrastructure to help mortgage brokers build and grow the independent channel . But we're an origination machine and we have a moat around our business that people can't touch .

All right, let's see.

Speaker #1: And with some of these things happening , understanding that the the barriers to entry to compete with is significantly higher than it's ever been , even , you know , back in 2020 and 21 , when we were doing huge amount of volume , the capital and liquidity requirements were not at the level they are today .

Speaker #1: And so we look at that as a positive because our balance sheet is now fortified at a level that , you know , almost has never been done before at our size for our , you know , for UW , for perspective wise .

Speaker #1: And we're excited about it . So no , we're not a servicing focused company . We will continue to build our servicing book .

Speaker #1: We brought servicing in house . I do see a question here . So I kind of hit this at once . You know , expenses are higher on the servicing side right now because I've got both right .

Speaker #1: I got internal and I'm still have external with Sandler . And so having external servicing and internal . And then I also have to pay the Offboarding costs .

Speaker #1: So the servicing costs , I'm kind of getting double hit this year . Next year we'll see those big benefits that we've talked about .

Speaker #1: Now . So you're kind of getting hit the double on that right now tied to the server . But we are not servicing company .

Speaker #1: We are a origination company . We're an infrastructure and AI technology company helping brokers dominate in this housing market . And we feel good about the moat around our business .

Speaker #1: And the servicing book is definitely a nice thing that we have and will continue to grow because we can originate loans at a level that almost actually , I won't say almost leveraged loans at a level that nobody in the market can do Let me see .

Volume the capital and liquidity requirements were not at the level they are today. And so we look at that as a positive because our balance sheet is now fortified at a level that um, you know, almost has never been done before at our size for our, you know, for UWM pairs perspective wise, um, and we're excited about it. So um, no, we're not a servicing focused company. We will continue to build our servicing book. We brought servicing in house. I I, I do see a question here, so I kind of hit this at once. You know, expenses are higher on the servicing side right now because um, I'm, I've got both right? I got internal and I'm still have an external with senler. And so having external servicing and ensuring and then I also have to pay the off-boarding cost. So the servicing cost I'm kind of getting double hit this year. Next year, we'll see those big benefits that we've talked about now. Um, so you're kind of getting hit the double on that right now, um, tied to the server. But we are not a Servicing Company. We are uh,

Speaker #1: I'm trying to think if I've covered all those , I kind of covered servicing portfolio , higher rates perspective , obviously , you know , scale is a big part of servicing .

Origination company. We're an infrastructure and AI technology company helping brokers dominate in this housing market, and we feel good about the moat around our business. The servicing book is definitely a nice thing that we have, and it will continue to grow because we can originate loans at a level that—actually, I won't say "almost"—we originate loans at a level that nobody in the market can do.

Speaker #1: And , you know , we are pretty close to that level . We obviously have a top ten servicing books in America , but as we continue to grow and now one of the things that kind of tests the scale , are we going to continue to scale our servicing books ?

um,

let me see.

I'm trying to think of a covered all those

I kind of covered uh servicing for a higher rate perspective obviously um

Speaker #1: Let me answer that one head on . Can we continue to scale the MSR book ? And the way we look at it is with the equity that we have now , we will continue to opportunistically sell our servicing when the time is right .

Speaker #1: And so we don't have our need to sell if someone's going to pay a great price and it makes strategic benefit , we will sell the MSR and bring in that cash and validate all that .

Speaker #1: Or if we feel like it's the right time to continue to build , we can do that . And that's one of the benefits of Oak Tree .

You know, scale is a big part of servicing and you know we are pretty close to that level. Um we obviously have a top 10 servicing books in America but as we continue to grow and now 1 of the things that kind of tests, the scale, are we going to continue to scale our servicing books? So let me answer that 1 head on, um, can we continue to scale the MSR book? Um, and the way we look at it is with the equity that we have. Now we will continue to the opportunistically, sell our servicing.

Speaker #1: They have an intimate knowledge of MSR book and MSR asset in general , and I feel really good about the partnership there because they have a lot of views on that and how we can build this .

Speaker #1: The best way together . So feel good about MSR book ability . Once again , we don't have to go by MSR . We originate them , which is something that we have at the highest level in the country , which will help us continue to grow .

Speaker #1: Going forward Let's see . I think there's some questions that are kind of let me try to knock some more of these out So Jeff Adelson , are you as you build an in-house servicing platform , how are you balancing the strategic value of retaining MSR and growing the servicing portfolio against the liquidity generated through MSR sales ?

When the time is right and so we don't have our need to sell. If someone's going to pay a great price and it makes Strategic Benefit, we will sell all the msrs and bring in that cash and validate all that, or if we feel like it's the right time to continue to build, we can do that. And that's 1 of the benefits of oak tree. They have a intimate knowledge of the MSR book and the MSR, uh, uh, asset in general. And I feel really good about the partnership there, because they have a lot of views on that and how we can build this, the best way to gather. So feel good about the MSR book and our ability. Once again, we don't have to go buy msrs, we originated them which is something that we have at the highest level in the country which will help us continue to grow going forward.

um,

let's see. I think there's some questions that are kind of, let me try to knock some more of these out.

Um,

Speaker #1: So I kind of answered that question . I think a minute ago . And so I'm trying to think if there's anything else I'd want to add to it to help answer your question .

Speaker #1: But , you know , we we will continue to grow the MSR book . We love what we've done . We will be the best servicer in America .

Speaker #1: We might not be the biggest service in America because we will opportunistically sell when it makes sense . But what we're doing for the consumers and the retention of those loans , giving them back to our broker channel , has been a huge , huge benefit .

So Jeff Aiden are as you build an in-house servicing platform, how are you balancing the Strategic value of retaining msrs and growing the servicing portfolio? Again the liquidity generated through MSR sales and so I kind of answered that question. I think a minute ago and so um, I'm trying to think if there's anything else I want to add to it to help answer your question. Um,

but, you know,

Speaker #1: We've always done a very good job of it , but now that we're handling the servicing process and not outsourcing it to Sandler or other lenders or other servicers , we feel we can do a better job , which will hopefully only drive the the refinance when the refinances come , a higher percentage come back to .

Speaker #1: But as I've said before , you know , although we don't have the biggest servicing book , we know , 12 , 13% , I think of all refinances in the market .

We we, we will continue to grow the MSR book. We love what, what we've done, and we will be the best service for America. Um, we might not be the biggest surface in America because we will opportunistically sell when it makes sense. But what we're doing for the consumers and the retention um of those loans giving them back to our broker channel has been a huge huge benefit. We've always done a very good job of it but now that we're handling the servicing process. Um, and not Outsourcing it to senler or other lenders or other services.

Speaker #1: We only have 2 or 3% of the service . So we don't have to own the servicing book to do the refinances . The broker channel is very efficient and we help our brokers succeed .

We feel we can do a better job which will hopefully only drive the the refinance when the refinances come higher percentage, come back to WM. But as I've said before,

Speaker #1: And with the technology and the infrastructure , we provided for them to help them win , they will win in that market when the rates do drop for refinances .

Speaker #1: And so there's still a lot of references right now , but it's obviously been a higher rate environment . And so in this example , our MSR book will continue to be stronger and continue to build going forward Let's see , I've covered a lot of these questions .

Speaker #1: I'm trying to see if there's any other questions that I've not covered You know , this is an oak tree question , kind of like , I guess I kind of said it already .

You know, although we don't have the biggest servicing book. Um, we do, you know, 12 13%, I think of all refinances in the market, we only have 2 or 3% of the servicing way, so we don't have to own the servicing book to do the refinances. The broker channel is very efficient, um, and we help our broker succeed, and with the technology and the infrastructure we provided for them to help them win. They will win in that market when the rates do drop for refinances. And so there's still a lot of refinances right now, but it's obviously been a higher rate environment. And so in this example, our MSR book will continue to be stronger and continue to build going forward.

Speaker #1: So I'll just kind of repeat myself , but just to kind of reiterate the question tied to oak tree is , you know , why is oak tree the partner and , and not , you know , capital from other companies or bringing other .

Um, let's see.

I've covered a lot of these questions. I'm trying to see if there's any other questions that I have not covered. Um,

You know, this is an oak tree question, kind of, I guess.

Speaker #1: And Oak tree is a strategic partner , right ? Capital is capital . Money is money . But if you get someone that can help you build your business and actually aligns with the vision and strategy that you have going forward , that's a different type of capital .

Speaker #1: And that's how we look at MSR as , I mean , Oak Tree has strategic value , but they have MSR knowledge . They have there's some things we can do on the non side .

Speaker #1: And they also have really strong leadership there and people that we're going to partner with that think of things in a way that maybe differently .

Speaker #1: And then give us different perspectives on things . But you know , I'm going to continue to run this business the best way for our brokers , for our team members , for our shareholders , and for Oak Tree and for and once again , one of the shareholders as well .

Speaker #1: So we're all doing it together and we're all going to win together . And once again , in the question kind of alludes to Oak Tree .

Speaker #1: Could you have gotten cheaper capital elsewhere ? I'm sure we could have gotten cheaper capital elsewhere . But is that the right long term benefit ?

Speaker #1: I'm thinking about , you know , the size , you know . Yeah , someone could put 100 million . Someone put a billion and a half and I put in 550 or committed up to 550 million .

Speaker #1: Those are big numbers . And so I want Oak tree to make a lot of money on oak trees . Warrants are in the money .

Speaker #1: Everyone that's watching this call or that cares about is going to be extremely happy for Oak Tree , because they're going to make a lot of money as well .

Speaker #1: So we feel great about Oak Tree . The partnership , but it's not just capital . They wrote a big check . They believed in housing .

Speaker #1: They believe in UW , M , and they're making their bet with us right next to me . And I feel great about that opportunity I don't know , I feel like I've covered almost all of these .

You get someone that can help you build your business and actually aligns with the vision and strategy that you have going forward. That's different type of capital. And that's how we look at MSR as I mean, excuse me, oak tree has strategic, um, value, but they have MSR knowledge. They have, there's some things we can do on the non- agency side, and they also have really strong leadership there and people that we're going to partner with that think of things in a way, that maybe think a little differently and then give us different perspectives on things. But, you know, I'm going to continue to run this business. The best way, for our Brokers, for our team members, for our shareholders, and for oak tree and for UWM. And once again, I'm 1 of the shareholders as well. So we're all doing it together and we're all going to win together. And once again, in the question, kind of alludes to Oak Tree, could you've gotten cheaper Capital elsewhere, I'm sure we could have gotten cheaper Capital elsewhere. But is that the right long-term benefit? I'm thinking about, you know, the size, you know? Yeah. Someone could put a 100 million, someone put a billion and a half, and I put in 550 or committed up to 550 million. Those are big numbers. And so I want oak tree to make a lot of money and oak trees. Warrants are in the money.

Speaker #1: I don't know if there's any other questions . Here's what I'll say is I'll kind of wrap up because I feel like a lot of questions are duplicative , and I want to make sure I cover everyone .

Speaker #1: If I do not cover your question , I'm personally happy to get on a call with people . Of course . Investor relations .

Everyone that's watching this call or that cares about UWM is going to be extremely happy for Oaktree because they're going to make a lot of money as well. So we feel great about Oaktree, the partnership. But it's not just capital—they wrote a big check, they believed in housing, they believe in UWM, and they're making their bet with us, right next to me, and I feel great about that opportunity.

um,

Speaker #1: Blake . Matt Ross , my CFO , Rami , everyone's available to talk . The Oak Tree team is ready to talk . We're happy to talk about it with anyone .

I don't know. I feel like I've covered almost all of these.

Speaker #1: We're excited about the opportunity . The biggest thing is long term winning UW is always about long term . We're not looking back at a bad month or a bad quarter or a bad trade .

Speaker #1: That's not what UW is about . UW has been in business 40 years , 40 years of helping brokers win , growing and continuing to put ourselves in position to dominate in all cycles .

Speaker #1: And in the last five years have been a down cycle . And UW has consistently made . What do you want to call it ?

Speaker #1: You know , you know , 4 or $500 million . But also I look at it 150 to $200 million of adjusted EBITDA , pretty consistently .

Speaker #1: We are a strong operating business . And with the capital infusion and liquidity we have right now , the sky is the limit .

Speaker #1: And so I look at that from a perspective of how do we win long term together ? And that's what UW is about .

Speaker #1: And we are going to win with Oak Tree next to us and all of our shareholders and partners are brokers . Our team members .

Speaker #1: We're going to win together going forward . And that's my job . Long term domination . And that's what UW has never been better positioned than we are today .

I don't know if there's any other questions. Here's what I'll say is. I'll I'll kind of wrap up because I feel like a lot of questions are duplicative and I want to make sure I cover everyone. If I did not cover your question, I'm personally happy to get get on a call with people, of course, investor relations, Blake. Matt Ross, my CFO Romney, everyone's available to talk oak. Tree team is ready to talk. We're happy to talk about it with anyone. We're excited about the opportunity. The biggest thing is long-term winning, you WMS always about long term, We're Not Looking Back At A bad month or a bad quarter or a bad trade. That's not what you WMS about wms's been in business, 40 years, 40 Years of helping Brokers win growing and continuing to put ourselves in position to dominate in all Cycles. In the last 5 years, I've been a down cycle and WM is consistently made. What do you want to call it? You know, you know, 4 or 500 million dollars. But also I look at it at 150 to 200 million dollars of adjusted ibida. Pretty consistently. We are a strong operating business and with the capital infusion and liquidity, we have right now. The sky is the limit and so I look at that.

Speaker #1: Thanks for the time . Look forward to talking to anybody about it . We appreciate the questions . The support , and you being on the call with us .

From a perspective of how do we win long-term together and that's what UWM is about and we are going to win with oak tree next to us and all of our shareholders and partners are Brokers. Our team members, we're going to win together going forward, and that's my job long-term domination, and that's where WM has never been better positioned than we are today.

Thanks for the time. Look, forward to talking to anybody about it, we appreciate the questions, the support and uh you being on the call with us, have a great day.