Q1 2020 Earnings Call
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the outside US 2021st quarter earnings Conference call.
During today's presentation, all parties will be and they listen only mode.
Following the presentation the conference will be open for questions with instructions to follow at that time.
As a reminder, this conference call is being recorded.
I'd now like to turn the call over to Jamie Louis Investor Relations for FNF. Please go ahead Sir.
Thank you operator, and good morning, everyone. Thank you for joining our first quarter 2020 earnings conference call joining.
Joining me today is our chairman Bill Foley CEO Randy Quirk.
Like Nolan CFO, Tony Park, and F and G CEO Chris block.
I'll begin with a brief strategic overview from bill.
He will review the title business and only will finish with a review of the financial highlights.
Well then open the call for your questions and finish with some concluding remarks from Bill Foley.
We began I would like remind you that this conference call may contain forward looking statements involve a number of risks and uncertainties in particular.
Cobot 19 pandemic.
A significant uncertainty about the duration and extend the impact of this pandemic.
Additionally, statements that are not historical facts, including statements about our expectations hopes intentions or strategies regarding the future are forward looking statements.
Looking statements are based on management's beliefs as well as assumptions made by an information currently available to management at the time of this call.
Because such statements are based on expectations, that's a future financial and operating results and are not statements about actual results may differ materially from those projected.
We undertake no obligation to update any forward looking statements.
However, as a result of new information future events or otherwise.
The risks and uncertainties with forward looking statements are subject to include but are not limited to the risks and other factors detailed in our press release. They did yesterday and then the statement regarding forward looking information at risk factors and other sections of the company's form 10-K.
Other filings with the FCC.
This conference call will be available for replay via webcast at our website at <unk> Dot Com will also be available through phone replay beginning at three PM Eastern time today and run through April Thirtyth.
A replay number is 84451 to two nights should one or the access code is one three 701 Threenine to let me now turn the call they worked toward chairman Bill.
Thank you Jamie before I begin I want to take a moment to address the current environment, which is rapidly changed with the spread of cope with 19 over the last six weeks everyday lives have been impacted as all of you know, especially the way we work into business. The important work or company performs to facilitate residential and commercial real estate settlements in close.
[laughter] that's been designated by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security is part of the essential critical infrastructure workforce.
During these challenging times, the safety and health of our vital employees and customers comes first.
At the onset of the pandemic, our major team worked to transition nearly 80% of or more than 25000 person workforce based real do you like the U.S., Canada in India to repay remote we're confirming focusing on productivity without foregoing security.
This is a testament to not only the operational capabilities of our management team, but also the significant investments that we have made in technology, which provides if an epic competitive advantage. During these trying times.
This has enabled the title production on title commitments crosses.
To continue to flow smoothly I want to take all of our employees, who have adapted to this new environment. It have maintained the high quality of their work.
I will let Randy go into more detail on the title that business momentarily touching on the highlights of our title business for the first quarter. We generated adjusted pretax title earnings of 279 billion compared to 172 million in the comparable year ago corridor, and a 14.4% adjusted pretax title margin as.
Her to 11.3% in the first quarter 2019.
Turning to the acquisition of after deal Holdings, which we agreed in early February to acquire for 12 50 per share of common stock at a cash equity transaction valued at approximately 2.7 billion.
Yesterday, we signed the credit agreement for what free 1 billion 364 day delayed draw term loan along with the which along with a cash on hand and are Undrawn credit facility facility offers ample capacity to fund the F and G trade acquisition, while also providing liquidity and flexibility to operate after that for the correct.
Market environment.
We are well on track to complete the acquisition by the end of the second quarter or the beginning of the third quarter.
Once we received all regulatory and F and G shareholder approvals.
Currently reached it we are still waiting on regulatory approvals from New York in Iowa, and the F and G shareholder vote.
We continued to be excited about the opportunity to combine the F and G business would have enough given the many strategic benefits that we see even in a more challenged work environment like what we're experiencing today.
Assuming we close the deal Buddy ended the second quarter, we continue to expect the transaction to be more than 10% accretive on a pro forma basis to finish 2020 earnings for sure and more than 20% accretive on a pro forma basis.
To have enough 2021 earnings for sure Importantly, F and G provides FNF with a counter cyclical business was strong growth tailwinds, which will be enhanced by FNF strong balance sheet, they cross sell opportunities.
Looking forward, we remain committed to creating meaningful long term value for shareholders through our capital allocation strategy.
We announced yesterday afternoon, or quarterly cash dividend of 33 cents per sure, which will use approximately $90 million it available holding company cash as a reminder.
[noise] reflects the previous dividend increase of 6.5% from the fourth quarter.
We have no plans to alter our current dividend policy.
Regarding our share repurchase program during the quarter, we repurchased 3.25 million shares for 94 million.
Current repurchase plan has an 18.9 billion shares remaining under the authorization.
We have made the decision to temporarily suspend or buyback program.
Given our pending acquisition of F and G combined with the uncertain market an economic backdrop as a result, other covert 19 pandemic.
I'll now turn the call over to ready for it to discuss the title business in more detail.
Thank you Bill.
We generated strong adjusted pre tax I learning, so 279 million, 62.2% increase during the first quarter of 2019, our adjusted pretax title margin was 14.4% Athree hundred and 10 basis point increase over the prior year.
We had a 43% increase in direct orders closed comprised of a 3% increase day they purchase order closed.
130% increase in data refinance orders closed and a 3% increasing total commercial orders closed.
Purchase orders open decreased by 1% versus the first quarter of 2019.
Refinance orders opened increased by 170% versus the first quarter of 2019 as a mortgage rate environment heading into the first quarter drove strong refinance volumes.
Lastly, toast total commercial orders open increased by 13% over the first quarter of 2019.
The quarter shortage strong with healthy healthy trends in purchase orders opened continued strain to refinance orders opened and closed and commercial orders remained strong following.
It has been an incredible five you're right.
Total commercial revenue increased by 6% to 245 million compared to the year ago quarter of 231 million due to a 3% increase in closed orders and a 2% increase in fee per file.
For the first quarter total orders opened averaged 11000 per day with January at 8800 February 11100 and March at 13000.
Daily purchase orders opened in January were up by 5% versus the prior year period, well February was up 11% and March was down 11% versus the prior year period.
Refinance orders to open to increased by 170% on a daily basis versus the first quarter 2019.
As you would expect it wasn't until the last few weeks of the quarter, we began to see a decline in refinance and purchase orders.
The first three weeks of April total orders opened were over 9200 per day purchase orders open per day declined by 47% versus the prior year period, and refinance orders open per day increased by 122% versus the prior year.
With the continued shelter in place orders and many state mandates now sustained through mid May combined with ongoing social distance in concerns we would expect the decline in purchase in the purchase market to continue through the second quarter and possibly entered the third quarter.
Well it is hard to forecast the duration impacted the pandemic on the residential and commercial real estate markets. Our team has you long history and deep experience operating through challenging markets.
Today, we are leveraging our investments in technology and utilizing online resources as we mobilized our teams to close orders.
Real estate closures for the most part require physical signing a certain documents, we are making accommodations in our office environment, well adhering to the social distance in guidelines and limiting physical contact as we work to protect our employees and customers.
As order counts decreased at the end of March due to the spread of Cobot 19, and the resulting state shelter in place orders. We quickly responded by reducing expenses to adapt to the market.
During the month of April we made it difficult decision to reduce reduced staffing in our field operations by 18% and in our corporate environment by 11%.
We expect the annual <unk> annualized savings from these reductions to be approximately $200 million.
We will continue to closely monitored the market and we'll utilize all available levers we can to manage our expenses mitigate margin degradations and maximize our cash flow.
The rain, we remain committed to maximizing profitability in all market environments.
Let me now turn the call over to Tony part to review the financial highlights.
Thank you Randy we generated $1.6 billion in total revenue in the first quarter with the title segment, producing all but the 11 million dollar loss of revenue generated in our corporate segment first quarter net losses were $61 million, which included $320 million in pre tax net realized losses.
Driven by Mark to market accounting treatment of equity and preferred stock securities in our investment portfolio.
Excluding net realized losses, our total revenue was $1.9 billion as compared with $1.6 billion in the first quarter of 2019 adjusted net earnings were $202 million were 73 cents per diluted share.
Excluding net realized losses of $313 million, our title segment generated $1.9 billion and total revenue for the first quarter, a 27% increase from the first quarter two 2019.
Direct premiums increased by 24% versus the first quarter 2019 agency revenue grew by 33% and escrow title related another fees increased by 27% versus the prior year.
Personnel costs increased by 16% and other operating expenses grew by 21%.
All in the title business generated a 14.4% adjusted pretax title margin, a 310 basis point increase versus the first quarter 2019.
Interest income of $53 million declined by $1 million as compared with the prior year quarter.
FNF debt outstanding was $839 million on March 30, Onest for a debt to total capital ratio of 13.3 per se.
Our claims paid a $48 million were $10 million lower than our provision of $58 million for the first quarter. The carried reserve for claim losses is currently $48 million or 3% above our actuaries central estimate we continued to provide for claims at 4.5 per se.
<unk> of total title premiums.
[noise] yesterday as Bill mentioned, we signed a credit agreement for a 1 billion dollar 364 day delayed draw term loan.
Given the challenging economic backdrop, the additional furniture financing secured allows FNF to maintain adequate liquidity to whether the current business challenges and close on the acquisition of SNG and the coming weeks.
That said, we are continuously monitoring the credit markets closely for the appropriate opportunity to refinance the term loan with longer term bonds.
Finally, our investment portfolio totaled $5.4 billion at March 30 Onest.
Included in the $5.4 billion, our fixed maturity and preferred securities of $2.4 billion with an average duration of 3.8 years and an average rating of eight to.
Equity securities of $600 million short term and other investments of $1.5 billion and cash of $900 million.
We currently have over $1.1 billion in cash and short term liquid investments at the holding company level.
Before I turn the call over to the operator for questions, Chris Blot F and G. CEO will be participating in the Q and a portion of the call.
Given that F and G has not yet released results for the first quarter.
And is scheduled to do so on May six he is unable to answer any specific questions related to the first quarter.
Let me now turn the call back to our operator to allow for any questions.
We will now begin the question answer session.
The question you May Press Star then one on your Touchtone phone.
If you're using his speakerphone, please pick up your handset before pressing the key.
To withdraw your question. Please press Star then too.
Time, we will pause momentarily to assemble our roster.
And our first question comes from George Bowls of KBW. Please go ahead.
Yes. This is bose.
The first question.
It's just on the commercial trends in April I.
I Didnt, if I missed that but whereas commercial revenues trending yes.
Hey, Paul is it's it's Mike.
I'll start by saying that you know the first quarter, we really built on the already strong inventory, we had with up commercial was up 13%, having said that we saw slowed down as we got into March.
March on the open order side was flat to last March so we kind of had a deceleration and the.
Trends on the open order side and the first 13 days if they hold our open orders will probably be off about 25% to 30% on the open side, it's really tough to predict.
Predict revenue and Andy and to give you any guidance on revenue because it's just it's just too early in the month into early in the quarter.
Sure Yes, that's the that's very helpful. Thanks, and then the.
Just given the trends that are you know that you're seeing on the purchase side some of salt and assume that goes for a few months.
So on where you think your margin trends over the course of the Ya.
Yeah, I'll start again Bose I think you know as you know we don't give guidance so its and there's a good reason for that it's very difficult to a project those kinds of things.
You know as we as we go into the second quarter. We would expect you know what the fall off in in purchase that we've seen in April and the potential fall off in commercial a that revenue will will not be a strong and margins generally move with revenue.
But as you also know we do everything we can to minimize that margin impact.
With that with expense reductions and will certainly be.
You know taking all the all the actions we need to take to maximize our margins.
Okay, great. Thank you just one on F G b.
The movements, we've had in the market.
I assume there will be.
And you have to.
I guess purchased use purchase accounting when that transaction is down that.
That portfolio to fair value, yes, it does that change.
Earnings outlook on hold.
That would create a scenario where your earnings outlook it sounds improves or just any color on high that the purchase accounting fair value.
How that future earnings.
Chris do you want to relative to the extent you can do you want to take the.
Sure Yeah, I guess I'll just try to answer maybe more generically as you know when you go through the process. So.
We will mark the investment portfolio to market.
So given where it's trading most portfolios are trading right now you'd expect Oh.
Pick up in that the listed yield on the portfolio. So that would be one impact on the other would be to look at all of your actuarial assumption, having said that since we just went through an acquisition two and a half years ago those are pretty fresh.
So yeah, the those would be probably the two big drivers that you could see.
Okay. So did I was just trying to tie that back to the 10% accretion whether you know there could be.
Incremental upside it based on where the money comes in since that's effectively going rather yield going forward is that.
Yeah, that's something we should think about.
Yeah I think this is Tony I think.
A couple of things to think about one is that a I think a half and geez earnings and revenue are less volatile probably then now fanapt in a in a market like this because you know there a earnings will will be driven off of an investment portfolio that that's pretty stable so to the extent happen out.
He is impacted negatively by at least in the short term.
By by order volumes and potentially a a disruption real estate activity that would.
But maybe a short term damper on F. An EPS earnings.
And so given the stability of a of F and G is earnings you would think that the math would give you even a more accretive analysis now maybe all that settles out in 2021 and you're back to the numbers that we that we gave you which frankly, we're very conservative it at 20% for a full year in 10 per se.
For half year, but I could definitely see a see those accretion numbers going higher.
Okay, Great only thing I might add that is just to remind everyone that our earnings are driven by our in force. It's a net spread model and we run a very tight PLM.
So I think the Tony's point that.
Near term volume impact is not as significant for us.
Okay, great. Thanks, guys.
Thank you.
Our next question comes from market of rise of Barclays. Please go ahead.
Yes. Thanks, just what's the question a follow up question on the accretion mouth.
Tony can you can you just remind us the ways in which you think that that guidance is conservative than in what way is that the changes that we've seen in recent months maybe.
Maybe maybe more optimistic that that the accretion coming in higher than what you're guiding to.
Yeah, I guess generally speaking we wanted to be careful when we even gave those numbers initially and so we were conservative both with the up enough forecast a as well as a F and G. We took about a 25% hair cut off of a kind of what they thought things would look like now that was obviously before any of the dislocation that.
We've seen now but as I as I just mentioned you know to the extent that FNF feels a short term disruption in real estate activity that would drive our our earnings or lower.
And if and G.'s Uh huh.
Maintains relative stability I think you really see a so positive accretion now you know ideally FNF bounces back in a quarter or so and and and kind of the run rate gets you back to where you were before and then the and then still I think the math.
It's conservative we said greater than 20%, but you know the numbers and those of you have done the analysis the numbers actually played out stronger than that so yeah, I think there's there's real accretion upside.
Once a once we get back to kind of a normal marketplace.
Okay and your latest thoughts on on the funding cost around this transaction, where does that term loan price out you have any sense for if you went to the market today.
The terming out what what your cost would be.
I guess the current term loan the billion dollar deal that we signed yesterday a bank loan for up for one year as LIBOR floor.
Plus 200.
And you know the marketplace the bond markets, maybe three or four weeks ago.
As you know are pretty volatile and that's when we had to start this process. If we if we had to do a deal today I think it would be a lot easier to do but three weeks ago. It wasn't and so really spreads of f. settled down and I think probably an all in cost looks.
The estimates we gave in our analysis in February work.
Were 4% and I think were well within that even if we refinanced a that billion dollars now I think we could land at 4%, maybe even a little better.
Okay got it.
And then.
Question on on the commercial business.
No it sounds like you're.
Decline so far in April.
His come in kind of materially lower than I thought it out, but she's told us they're down kind of 37%.
On on the order count is there anything kind of qualitatively different about your commercial business.
That could explain.
The more resistant or resilient volumes that you're saying.
Hi, it's Mike.
I don't know what differences may exist.
You know between the two companies are our commercial footprint is probably larger we're certainly you know have much more volume on the local side, which influences commercial order volumes.
So I think thats part of it and then I would just kind of remind everybody we're talking about a pretty small data set.
You know to extrapolate from but.
It could be it could be that local influence as much as anything.
Okay is the local holding up better than in the national.
Just a little bit yet and it's it's not it's not a significant difference, but you know through the first 13 days I'll locals not down as much as the national orders.
Got it thank you.
Yeah.
Our next question is from Jack.
I say Gee. Please go ahead.
Hi, good morning.
One of the just ask your thoughts on the title loss ratio obviously.
Thank you enable.
Increase there.
Outlook.
Earlier today.
You are a little higher than them I think going into the quarter conceptually makes sense.
New set of eyes come on these files.
Arms.
Just a general thoughts Directionally is that something you would.
We expect to sort of move with in time as well or it was the underwriting environment today, so different and the existence of the forbearance plan.
Really is more of a wait and see kind of approach.
Yeah. Jack this is Tony I wouldn't say to your latter point I think probably it's a wait and see approach for us we feel pretty good we certainly feel good about our reserve position and kind of the cushion that we are sitting on today, which you know isn't substantial but you know there's a little something there were also seeing continue to see trends.
Really over the last seven or eight years that show us that loss ratios in the three and a half to maybe 4%. So the fact that we're providing it 4.5% is still a little bit conservative relative to even what we've seen for the last several years or potentially yeah, we see a loss.
Ratios kick up a little bit, especially if there's a.
Foreclosures, we've seen that end up fast cycle and it drove loss ratios higher although we certainly have changed some underwriting practices I think our fraud awareness that awareness is a lot stronger or certainly on the commercial side with mechanics lean exposure I think where we are underwriting as.
Much stronger.
So no I'm not expecting higher losses, but at the same time, we're going to watch it closely and if we you know if we see anything show up we'll make those adjustments then.
[noise] calls.
That's 13 and the commercial open on.
Yeah.
Pump in the first quarter was there anything there that either plus business from 40 to one two or maybe pull business forward into the quarter or is that is up 13 continued blocking and tackling and and winning business on a day to day.
Hi, Jeff, It's Mike I Didnt hear the very first part of your question, 13% on the orders.
Yes on the commercial wondering if there's any push forward.
No.
Nothing I, particularly aware of I think it was a continuation of the trends we really saw in the back half of 2019 were up 20% in the fourth quarter and I just think there's a lot of momentum in the commercial market and then of course got kind of stopped a bit by the the shelter in place and the.
The concerns around the virus.
Okay alright, thank you.
Our next question comes from John Campbell of Stephens, Inc. Please go ahead.
Hey, guys. Just two quick questions here I mean, obviously when your competitors made a pretty bold call on Rifai. This year, just just wanted to kind of get your view on broader outlook I think there were calling for about a 50% or so increase versus last year.
I don't know if it's best for firms for.
Mike or Randy, but what are you guys sneak in as far as purchase versus refi this year.
You know that let this Randy let me a address the at the purchase side.
You know, we when we came into the first well through the first quarter the purchase was strong.
Building as we got into the middle part of March.
When they stay in order to stay at home orders I came in and that's when we saw a significant falloff in purchase we went.
From March at about 3500 to purchase orders per day down into April at about 25.
2600.
Purchase orders per day, so there was a pretty considerable drop off as we moved through the up.
Through the month to March 45% from start to finish in the month.
As it and we have seen it settled down and it looks like.
And of course, it's a moving target, but over the last three weeks it looks like we've.
Bottomed out and in fact.
The purchase volume has ticked up slightly over the last three weeks and even into the first three days of out of this week. So.
Long term you know if some of these orders get lifted, particularly if some of the major stage.
It's starting to feel like people are thinking about real estate again versus really felt like a a dramatic shift in in the month of March so.
We feel that is going to come back and come back gradually and we could be seen signs of that.
So far in the month of April However, like Mike mentioned earlier, it's a pretty small data set but.
When we're no longer in a decline at least for the first three weeks.
And John I'll weigh out on the Rifai side of the question I think if.
If somebody were saying there's going be a 50% increase in refile think that's very much in line with the latest forecast from Fannie and be a column for about a 1.4 trillion refinance market and last year. It was about.
700 billion, so that would be in line with Doug what those groups or call. It four hard to predict what are what the real numbers going to be but we continue to see very strong Wi Fi volumes.
We're up 170% in the first quarter were up 122% in April and while that sounds like maybe it's fallen off a little bit it's actually.
We're opening more refined in April than we were in the first quarter on average the costs a little different and that April of last year was our best refinance month of the year.
So while it's still appears to be a very strong rifai market deals are closing.
And Oh.
Tough to call how long it continues but it's very active right now.
Okay makes sense. Thanks for the color guys and then Chris Thanks again for jumping on the call. It's always good to hear your insight.
Just on on FCL, just outside of that you know the next quarter or so I mean, it sounds like that there is stable stabilization in the model, where you guys can offset some of the market pressure, but.
Bigger picture you guys were calling for some kind of rating upgrades and kind of opening up the channel is that still.
Do you feel like that's still in line is that something you guys and still achieve or is it kind of panera at this point.
Yes, great question. So I would say on strategy remains the same and still on pace.
For a lot of those initiatives that you talked about we've had good dialogue with rating agencies.
Continuing apace with channel expansion on the other thing I guess I would point out here as you.
While there is.
The sort of near term pressure of agents getting in front of clients. So one we have a pretty much all electronic process I personally bought a couple of our contract.
In the last two weeks it took less than half an hour and there was no physical contact needed.
The longer term issue I think is actually been enhance this and if you think about our core product, we guarantee feel they can't lose money and we give them a potential upside.
Through an index of their choice. So you know given that there's 10 trillion dollar still sitting and mutual.
[noise] larger long term macro is going to swamp.
In the long run any sort of short term issues that could be encounter around agents, having to change how they do business.
Makes sense thanks, guys.
Our next question is from Mark Hughes of Suntrust. Please go ahead.
Yes. Thank you.
Chris could you talk about the spread management in this kind of environment, where so much pressure on interest rate. How do you then that the how much [noise].
Room do you have again, the contractual minimum and then a new money yields could you talk about that.
Sure. So a couple comments, one I would say that while treasury yields have come down quite a bit as you know spreads have blown out and in the beginning it was quite indiscriminate. So you are seeing AAA and double a security spreads blowing out and so I think for Ross.
The total all in yield a that matters much more so than just whatever the treasury rate is so.
We do me out a very regular basis, particularly in volatile environments, we talk about it.
Pretty much constantly.
As you know we have an ability to reprice our in force once a year, which is generally sufficient timing to reprice, we repriced new business.
At least once a month, but in volatile environments, we can do it more often than that.
Other thing that I think you'll see happen.
With.
If you had a strong capital position coming into this.
Then you can continue to write new business, because you're not worried about running out of capital if you did not.
That's going to put pressure on some carriers to slow down their sales leap certain market.
The other issue as if you have a big legacy in force, that's very tied to the current level of interest rates.
That's going to put pressure as well and that's why again I think in the intermediate long term. We view. This is this is can be a pretty good environment for us.
Thank you.
Yes.
Our next question comes from Mackenzie Aron Zelman and Associates. Please go ahead.
Thanks.
Quick question.
Please clarify on on the share repurchase intention.
I understand that.
Make sense to step out of the market and with the GTL.
Well when should we expect about they'll be Anthony or assumption is in this acme purchased it.
Turning to want me to handle this one.
Sure so.
Well, we did we were pretty aggressive in terms or repurchase program over the beginning in the this is a stock.
Started to diminish as the price started administered moving down downward we started repurchasing more shares and we actually started repurchasing up to 250000 shares a day when the prices go up a little about $25.
With the NGL deal pending and it looks like it's going to close sooner rather than later, but we of course, you don't we don't know community to shareholders vote, we haven't gotten response.
An approval yet from Iowa in from New York, but we're just to be those shortly.
Once the once you have one ship deal closes and we get a little more clarity on the covered 19, new move it will be back in the mortgage and will be repurchasing again, just we just thought that for the next 30 days 45 days or so what we're working through of Geo it'd be was just to preserve cash and the situation and make sure we can maintain or dividend.
The new paying the dividend plus.
For the field asset and then we'll revisit it probably in early June, but we were pretty aggressive in the first quarter I mean, it was I.
I think 3.9 million shares and we kept on purchasing and April so.
We're just trying to be conservative we have very strong balance sheet as a fortress balance sheet and though we try to do Kevin Kevin.
Conservative capital allocation strategies, so hope that answers are responsive.
Yes, no that that's very helpful.
And then secondly on the investment income can you just helpful screen.
But the impact will be in the second quarter tops.
Your next quarter.
The lower rate environment.
Sure Mackenzie. This is Tony Yeah, we we had a pretty strong first quarter with 53 million <unk> million dollars, an interesting investment income, but as you know.
You know a fair amount of that comes from Tenthirty when exchange money, which is short term rates and cash and short term investments, which are short term rates, obviously and so really the impact.
From a 150 basis point moves at the fed made a in Q1 and and maybe some lingering effect from a their moves back in 2019, we're really going to feel some pressure in the next few quarters on investment income, especially in like I said Tenthirty when exchange and.
Cash and investments so I could see the $53 million dropping into the mid Thirtys high in Q2, and probably trending in that direction I I see I see interests investment income for the for the full year of.
[noise] of 2020 being somewhere in the $150 million range versus about to on a quarter in a in 2019.
Okay. So much.
Thanks.
Our next question comes from Chris Gamaitoni of Compass point. Please go ahead.
Thanks for taking my call.
I wanted to kind of.
I understand the delay all its relative to volume outlook at least one of your peers and you've noted stability and expecting potential improvement in order volume as we move past the cobot issue.
Im just wondering what the layoffs imply relative in the future volume and if the shift in two being more refinance centric. If it's more efficient you need less people I guess my question is really do you have enough capacity if the market improves.
Yes sure. This this is Randy Chris.
Yeah, we will have the capacity when the market improves.
It was a difficult decision to to engage.
Reductions to this degree, but as we add as I already mentioned as we move through the month to March.
Our order volume was coming down very very quickly so we.
We needed to get aggressive on our on our response to that.
As I said, we have now maybe single a bottoming out on the purchase side as Mike mentioned in refinish going to keep moving there are some efficiencies on the.
On the on the refinance side in terms of productivity.
So we believe were.
Close to being staff to properly now what we did do as we don't typically have a severance program, but we did.
Pick up Cobra expenses for those people that were.
Reduced core after 90 days and the hopes that if if and when this market is coming back and we can start bringing people back end, but we've been through these types of situations before.
We have always staff to our metrics, which really revolve around open files per employee. So we didn't need to all the orders down, but we're confident and as an unfortunate as it was these are unprecedented times, but.
We believe when it's a as is coming back we'll be able to.
I have really no particular issues staffing adequately.
Okay. That's all I had.
Thanks.
Our last question is a follow up from Mark Hughes of Suntrust. Please go ahead.
Thank you Im sorry, if I Miss that this did you give the number for Rifai orders per day in April I think you said there were up 122% correct on a day count.
<unk> per order for April correct per day Yep.
And then what was the April of last year and that.
Just want to make sure had the re Fi per day I'll give you the absolute numbers because I don't know what what the the percentage increase wise, but in April of this year. We opened just about 6500 refinance a day.
In April of last year, it was up 5050.
Perfect. Thank you very much.
This concludes our question and answer session I would now I turn the conference back over to Bill Foley for any closing remarks.
Thank you well, we're very pleased with our first quarter title results as the year was off to registered we're mindful of the challenges ahead due to the ongoing pandemic, which has greatly impacted or country. We're diligently watching our expenses as we manage the anticipated slowdown in volume, we look forward to updating you on or second quarter coal and hope.
He was able to stay healthy and safe. Thanks, Thanks again.
The conference.
Thank you for attending today's presentation and you may now disconnect.