Q1 2021 CNA Financial Corp Earnings Call
Good morning, and welcome to Cna's discussion of the 2021.
The financial results Cna's first quarter earnings release presentation and financial supplement.
This morning and are available is yes, the website www CNA dotcom.
Speaking today, we will have the Dino Robusto, Cna's, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, and all of our Allies Cna's Chief Financial Officer. Following their prepared remarks, we will open the line for questions.
Today's call May include forward looking statements and reference to non G. A a P.
Financial measures any forward looking statements involve risks and uncertainties that may cause actual results to differ materially from the statements made during the call.
Information concerning those risks is contained in the earnings release and in Cna's. Most recent SEC filings.
In addition, the forward looking statements speak only as of today and one day later 2021.
CNA expressly disclaims any obligation to update or revise any forward looking statements made during this call.
Regarding non G. A a P measures reconciliations to the most comparable G. A a P measures and all the information that's been provided and the financial supplement.
This call is being recorded and webcast during the the next week the call and maybe accessed and CNA what place. If you are reading a transcript of this call. Please note that the transcript me and all spear reviewed for accuracy. Thus it may contain and transcription errors that could materially alter the intent or meaning of the statements.
With that I will turn the call over to CNA, Chairman and CEO Dino Robusto.
Thank you Ashley and good morning, everyone.
And we started the year with good earnings from and improved underlying combined ratio.
And it's all of that investment and returns, which together largely offset a record setting first quarter for catastrophe losses.
So before getting into our results I wanted to comment.
On our cyber incident.
You likely know and late March.
We sustained the sophisticated cyber security attack, which we determined the what's caused by ransomware.
Promptly upon detection, we undertook steps to address the incident include.
Including proactively disconnecting or systems from our network.
Of an abundance of caution it contains the attack and most importantly to ensure that external parties were not at risk of <unk>.
Lots of contamination.
We also engaged the team of third party cyber security experts.
The investigator and determined the full scope of the incident.
And notified law enforcement and key regulatory agencies.
And I was personally involved and our remediation and recovery efforts and I'm proud of the way we responded at the company.
Pleased to report that the attack has been fully contained in our systems are back on line and operations are back to normal.
There is no evidence to indicate that external customers or other parties were at risk of infection or cross contamination due to this incident.
Most importantly, we were able to continue to meet the needs of our agents and brokers and insurance throughout the.
Of the incident, and we received positive feedback from them and recognize their commitment to transparency and <unk>.
And communication.
And we kept the agents and brokers consistently apprised of the latest developments throughout the three week restoration process and.
And provided them with incident updates to share with their clients.
Should they receive questions, where our agents and brokers have been very supportive of through this incident and I want to think of them.
Or their remarkable understanding and flexibility.
We are continuing to review any impact of the data to determine our legal obligations with respect to any notifications, we may be required to make two.
To the extent of this incident impacted the data of Insureds employees or others, we will notify them directly.
And that's required.
Now turning to our results for the quarter.
We had core income of 263 million or 96 cents per share.
Net income for the quarter was 312 million or $1 14 per share.
The P&C underlying combined ratio was 91, 9% of 1.8 point improvement over last year's first quarter result, and that he was the lowest underlying combined ratio and over 12 years.
Each of the three business units improve the underlying performance and the quarter.
The all in combined ratio was $98 one per cent.
And eight points higher from the first quarter of year ago.
The increase is driven.
And at 2.5 point increase and the catastrophe loss ratio and the quarter and fair.
The last year, largely offset by the improved underlying combined ratio.
And the first quarter of 'twenty, and 'twenty, one and pretax catastrophe losses of 425 million of six eight points of the combined ratio.
Cat losses are primarily due to winter storms jewelry and viola.
The combined ratio for specialty was very strong at 88, 8%.
Of 2.5 point improvement compared to the last year.
The combined ratio for commercial was $106 seven per cent.
The 1.5 point increase of Cat losses were 13.4 points this quarter versus the seven points a year ago.
International combined ratio improved considerably to $95 nine per cent of the re underwriting we executed earns into the portfolio.
The prior period development was favorable and the quarter by <unk> six points of the combined ratio.
The expense ratio for the first quarter was 31 five per cent.
One six points lower than Q1, 2020.
We continue to see the improvement and our expense ratio as high as our higher written premium growth rate over the past three quarters earns in.
Net earned premium was up 6% this border.
We'll have more to add on the expense ratio as well as prior period development.
The underlying loss ratio and the first quarter of 2020, one was 61 per cent.
The little less than a half a point lower than the fourth quarter of 2020.
However, the fourth quarter's result, and a continued COVID-19 frequency benefit excluding the benefit from COVID-19 and the underlying loss ratio and the first quarter of this year actually improved about a point from the fourth quarter of 2020 and.
And that is due to acknowledging earn day rate being well above our long run loss cost trend assumptions.
Of course, our earned the rate change out of 11 points is meaningfully higher than the March and we acknowledged.
And as we've said before we have been prudent about significantly lowering our underlying loss ratio.
Until we have clear evidence of our social inflation trends will play out.
Our sports come back the full capacity and the economy rebounds, particularly because we have been successful and profitably growing lines of business, such as management of liability and umbrella.
Which are impacted by social inflation and to date there.
And there is nothing that leads us to believe it's the.
It'll show of inflation, that's been even marginally extinguished.
Well the pandemic.
Now having said all of that has earned the rate is expected to continue to outpace our long run loss cost trends assumptions.
We should be in a position over the next few quarters. The continued to see further improvement.
And our underlying loss ratio all else equal.
For the first quarter rate increases continued to be strong.
And plus 11% for total P&C, which is consistent with the full year 2020 increase.
On a business unit basis International rate was plus 14%, while commercial was plus 10% consistent with Q4 2020.
And was plus 13% excluding work comp.
And the first quarter and work comp and rate was essentially flat marginally better than full year, 2020, which was slightly negative.
Similar to 2020.
The first quarter of work comp rate included positive rate in several areas like manufacturing.
While other areas were slightly negative, which aggregated the flat overall.
For the first quarter.
Specialty also achieved double digit rate of 10 per cent.
All of those specialty was down from the prior three quarters. It was impacted due to the mix of business.
And the our affinity professional E N O programs are a larger percentage of specialty renewal premiums in the first quarter.
And the rest of the year when you drill down.
Specialty continued to get double digit rate on rate and the areas that continue to need it.
Like aging services.
And where rates increased 33 per cent and the first quarter and public D&O.
Rates and increased 34 per cent and cyber rates increased 21%, which incidentally was six points higher and <unk>.
Q4.
Although the rate for total P&C is of point less than the fourth quarter.
We continue to get double digit rate, which is merited because of all of the environmental issues. We have commented on over the last 18 months.
Moreover, the increases remain appropriate and necessary when you put them in the context of how our industry operates.
It's consistently competitive with and underwriting cycle defined by long periods.
The price increases do not cover long run loss cost trends that compound annually.
Like the roughly 20 plus quarters prior to the hardening market phase.
Whereas through the first quarter of this year earned rates of exceeded the long run loss cost trends.
So the only five quarters.
So what do we think about rate adequacy, we do so against this reality otherwise weekend too quickly fall behind and lines of business with.
And with higher and potentially accelerating of long run loss cost trends such of several casualty lines.
We have discussed on prior calls.
Therefore, we appropriately you need to and we'll continue to push for rate increases well above the long run loss cost trends and we see that persisting through.
Through the year and.
Yeah.
We also continue to implement tighter terms and conditions across our portfolio, which can provide immediate benefit and the case of higher deductibles or coinsurance percentages.
But in other cases materialize over time for instance in cases, where we strengthen our policy language.
Retention was down one point from Q4, 2020 at 83 per cent. The decrease was due to re underwriting.
The Lloyd's operation, although the decision to eliminate certain programs that were made in the fourth quarter of 2020. Some policies that are early.
And in 'twenty, one renewal dates retentions and commercial and specialty remained consistent with the fourth quarter.
At 84, and 86% respectively.
Our new business growth was strong and plus 16%, which continued in line with the double digit growth rate in Q4.
Plus 17% with the.
The success at growing new business and of double digit rate achievement gross written premium XR cabinet of captive business grew 8% and the quarter led by specialty at plus 10% commercial life, plus five per cent and international a plus 12 per cent.
Net written premiums increased 4% and the quarter.
So as we look across the various production metrics for the quarter, we continued to effectively capitalize on the favorable market conditions and expect to continue to do so throughout the year with that.
I'll turn it over the up dwell.
Thanks, Dino and good morning to everyone.
And we're getting to the results.
The highlight a few changes to our earnings presentation materials.
And can you give the enhancement of Imation provided to you and to the line is reporting with how we manage the business.
And you didn't Hampton and sort of specifically related to our production metrics and can be found on pages seven and nine of the earnings presentation.
This information for the specialty and commercial segments and I'll provide you refine and more detailed breakdown of of.
Great and retention metrics into the sub segments of the businesses.
Specifically per specially <unk>.
We've separated out the affinity professional <unk> program business from.
And the financial management liability given the very different business dynamics.
As we said before our affinity programs have been in place for many years with long term multiyear renewal periods.
Cash these programs are less impacted by day to day pricing dynamics and the market.
Financial and management liability on the other hand, I think told you over the last few years has been a growth area for us and we've been very successful and penetrating these lines of business and the exhibit rate and retention dynamics typical of the traditional underwriting cycle.
You'll also note on the specialty and we've included a line item from medical malpractice, and which would have previously been classified as health care. It did not include the medical malpractice affinity business.
This line out of now includes all of the medical malpractice, including any related to pending the business that would have previously been included in the management and professional liability category.
On the commercial side of the business.
The separate out the national accounts business.
Which includes both large account property and large account casualty.
Again these are important lines of business, which we didn't targeting for growth and the rate and retention metrics reflect the unique business dynamic there and.
Overall, we believe the additional information and granularity on these pages will provide insight into our business and the progress being made.
Finally, all information has been restated for the four previous quarters for comparative purposes.
Now turning to the results core income for the quarter was $263 million.
Compared to $108 million from the prior year quarter.
The core ROE of eight 8% from the period, we continued to build upon the progress made on our underwriting profitability notwithstanding a period of elevated catastrophes.
A meaningful contributor to our underwriting results for the quarter was the expense ratio.
Our first quarter expense ratio of 31, 5%.
Which is our lowest ratio since 2009 and.
It reflects one six points of improvement versus the prior year quarter and a half of point sequential improvement from the fourth quarter.
The expense ratio and proven was achieved in all three of our P&C business segments.
During 2020 progress and our expense ratio was primarily driven by managing overall expense spend while investing judiciously and talent technology and analytics.
The expectation was that the trajectory of our net written premium which subsequently translate into earn growth.
Further benefiting and the expense ratio.
And this is clearly coming to fruition and inspire our results and we are proud of our progress of is wrong.
We would anticipate that our earn growth will continue to benefit the expense ratio and assist and funding rational investment into the business.
Turning to net prior period development and reserves for.
For the first quarter overall P&C net prior period development was six tenths of a point favorable essentially flat from the prior year quarter.
Favorable development and especially during the quarter was primarily driven by the surety business.
There were no material prior period development impacts and commercial and international segments.
In terms of our COVID-19 reserves, we've made no changes to our catastrophe loss estimates for the quarter.
We continually review of COVID-19, the reserves and a previously established estimate of ultimate loss remains appropriate and our last estimate is still with virtually all in IV and are.
Now turning to life and group.
The segment produced core income of 36, and $9 and the quarter compared of $4 million and the prior year quarter.
Consistent with the last several quarters results benefited from lower new claim frequency.
Higher claim terminations and more favorable claims severity.
As referenced in the previous quarters, giving the unger ongoing uncertainty of these trends.
Taking a cautious approach from an income recognition perspective and of quarterly had been holding higher levels of IV and our reserves.
Our corporate segment produced the core loss of $36 million from the first quarter compared to a 17 million dollar loss from the prior year.
The result for the quarter included a $12 million after tax loss from the closing of the loss portfolio transfer transaction associated with legacy excess workers' comp reserves.
As previously announced we entered into this transaction with the subsidiary of NCR Corporation and the transaction closed on February 5th of this year.
This block of business, which was previously reported as part of the commercial business segment is now reported as part of the corporate and other business segment.
In addition, the results also reflect the change made to the segment presentation for certain legacy mass tort reserves.
Similar to the excess workers' comp block of business. He's the leg of legacy mass tort reserves were previously reported and the commercial business segment and are now reported as part of the corporate and other business segment.
These changes were made to better reflect the manner in which we are organized for purposes of managing the business.
And assessing performance.
Turning to investments.
Pretax net investment income was $504 million and the first quarter.
Paired with $329 million and the prior year quarter.
Also included income of $61 million from our limited partnership and common equity portfolios as.
As compared to the loss of $125 million on these investments from the prior year quarter.
Our fixed income portfolio continues to provide consistent net investment earnings stable relative to the last few quarters and moderately down relative to the prior year quarter.
The year over year decrease was largely attributable EBITDA.
The fact of lower reinvestment yields.
And as a point of reference the pre tax effective yield on our fixed income earnings was four 4% Q1, 2021.
The four 6% as of Q1, 2020.
The decline and our portfolio of yield over this time reflects the cumulative effect of the persistently low interest rate environment.
And while the recent increase in interest rates may help to alleviate some of the pressure and income absolute reinvestment rates remain a headwind for the business.
From a balance sheet perspective, the increase in interest rates during the quarter resulted in and a decrease and our unrealized gain position on our fixed income portfolio to $4 $3 billion at quarter end cash.
I'm from $5 $7 billion at the end of 2020.
Fixed income and invested assets that support our P&C liabilities had.
The effective duration of four nine years at quarter end.
The effective duration of the fixed income assets that support our life and group liabilities was nine one years quarter and.
As usual slides from our earnings presentation will provide you with additional details of the investment result, and the composition of our investment portfolio.
Our balance sheet continues to be very solid at quarter, and shareholders' equity was $12 $1 billion or $44 50 per share reflective of the decrease and our unrealized gain position during the quarter.
Shareholders' equity excluding accumulated other comprehensive income was $11 $9 billion or $43 81 per share.
We have the conservative capital structure with a leverage ratio of below 19% and <unk>.
Continue to maintain capital above target levels and support of our ratings.
And the first quarter operating cash flow was $82 million.
And impacted by of $640 million payment associated with the loss portfolio transfer transaction.
Excluding this payment operating cash flow was very strong and $722 million comp.
Compared to $212 million of Q1, 'twenty, and 'twenty and driven by the improvement and of our current accident year underwriting profitability and a lower level of paid losses.
In addition to these net operating cash flows we continue to maintain liquidity and the form of cash and short term and investment and have sufficient liquidity holdings to meet obligations and to withstand significant business variability.
Finally, we are pleased to announce our regular quarterly dividend of 38 cents.
With that I will turn it back the Dino.
Thank you all.
We're pleased with our production execution capitalizing on the very favorable market conditions.
As well as continuing to improve our underlying underwriting performance and as we have consistently done.
Over the last several years and we expect meaningful opportunity to do more of the same as we believe the favorable market and environment will persist throughout the year and with that we.
We are ready to take your questions.
Yeah.
Thank you and if he was shocked the question. Please signal of by pressing star one on your telephone keypad again and that is star one and to the queue for questions.
We'll take our first question from Josh Shanker of Bank of America. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Good morning, everybody and thanks for taking my question. So all of you know you said that you're not yet ready to interpolate the frequency of data into your results and that's why the loss of improvement isn't as material as you had imagined.
And there's two sort of frequency there is the frequency of actual like incidents and then there's the social inflation issue about whether it's an older or not and there's no evidence as you say one way or the other but the the incidents of the the number of workers comp claims or the numbers of slip and falls and things like that.
Don't we have good knowledge about whether or whether or not the occurred over the last you know call. It 16 months.
Yeah actually Joshua and thanks, we do and you know when it all started.
Pandemic, we had indicated that we anticipated being a lot less frequency benefit and many of the other.
Oh potential carriers, just because of the nature of the type of insurance, we had with a lot of health care business manufacturing construction and contracting many of which were all the essential services as I think.
And I referenced in my Com and.
We did have about a half a point a benefit in the fourth quarter.
All of that that continue to play out from a frequency standpoint, and there was nothing in this.
This first quarter again, and we started off from a base that was probably a lot less than others and and obviously, we started to see that play out and so we had to recognize some frequency benefit and that's why sort of and comparing it and try to.
The sort of normal life by taking it out and then suggesting that the underlying actually loss ratio actually came down.
More to the more than a point of debt Oh that makes sense.
There's some sort of in there and then with regards of the social inflation.
And one of your competitors increase their.
Loss cost trend assumptions, this quarter, saying that social inflation.
Worse and their modeling is there and I understand the hesitancy to take down concerns over social inflation, but have.
Evidence the social Bush is accelerating over the last 12 months.
Okay. So the way I would categorize it was that we didn't really see a you know we had let me let me take you back and maybe provide some context. The if you recall at the beginning of 2020 Trust, what we did because of the various casualty lines of like the aging services medical Mal we had referenced we had also.
Referenced.
[noise] umbrella and at that time, we increased our our long run loss cost trends.
How about 100 basis points of four points and and I think the Wow.
The pandemic.
And the social inflation are these trends remained at the elevated levels. Since then though.
We also experienced some higher loss cost trends in 2020 due to elevated losses inside or both the sort of frequency and severity and also during the year you have the contemplate mixed change is during the last several quarters because as we and.
Indicated on the.
The prepared remarks, we grew our casualty lines, such as management liability and they're going to hold.
The substantially higher our long run loss cost trends, and our first party or or or big bulk of our affinity program. So what we did at the beginning of this year just to your question and specifically we increased our long run loss cost trends roughly another 50 basis points and now it's at.
At about a four and a half points of.
The helps.
Helps.
And that helps and one other and stomach related frequency severity or eat them.
And when would we have information about how the pandemic is change future behaviors around convalescent care, whether in home care versus a nursing home care and what that means for longer term modeling of all long term care.
The losses and whatnot.
And that over the Ow ow.
Yeah, Hi, Josh look we are really week to week month to month of valuing that and and looking at those trends to date relative to the trends we've seen through the pandemic. It has not abated and we continue to see lower claim frequency and higher claim terminations and.
More of an inclination towards home health care. So at the date that hasn't changed but we're looking very closely and as I mentioned, we continue to hold higher Ivy and our anticipation that we could see that certainly abate and change back to pre pandemic levels.
Oh, it's a people ops true of juice in home care versus the nursing care cause permanent behaviors of change is that positive or negative for all of the long term care carriers and home care more expensive or is a nursing care more expenses.
Hum Health care is typically a less expensive and so that is some of what the positive effects. We're seeing come through our results is that our cost of care is actually less what were of whole holding from and IV. Our perspective is more of the frequency, but cost of care has been lower because theres been a propensity.
Towards from Health care.
Okay, well, thanks for all the answers and and putting up with me.
Thanks, Josh.
We'll take our next question from Gary Ransom of Dowling and partners. Please go ahead.
[noise].
Yes. Good morning, I just wanted to follow up on the expense ratio of what I. What I heard was that there really wasn't anything unusual at all and the expense ratio and with that as a reasonable expectation going forward is that correct or was there anything unusual and the number of this quarter.
Yeah, Hi, Gerry it's L. A and nothing unusual I think really the storyline, we didn't we've been giving you we expected that earn growth would begin to kick in and what their net written growth and 2020, you're seeing that show up this quarter.
At the same time, we've been disciplined about our expense spend while we make investments and I think you just can see youre seeing a continuation of that.
With respect to kind of the path forward, we would expect that our earned growth will continue to come in and we'll continue to manage as we have the only variable I'd give you Gary is look our investments and the business talent technology analytics are not of straight line and therefore, youre going to move around a little bit on the expense rate.
Yeah.
The level, you're seeing and in and around 31% is a good target.
Alright terrific.
And Dino Thank you for the info on the cyber attack I wanted to ask though if the you have and arrangement with a.
Vendor that handles all of your hardware as I understand it I am not sure of that I think that's still in place, but what does that company involved and the Oh and and fixing this and or were they is that of an entirely separate from what you experienced.
Gary all of our vendors that we use we have the infrastructure and other partners and we also have in house, our I T and the technology and security and everyone was involved along with some forensic experts, though obviously.
When you hire a.
When does the event when the event started so every one of.
What's involved everyone did in my opinion, a quite of an incredible job working around the clock.
To get us back up and running.
And of course of the three week period.
So is there if I look at where you are today in terms of cyber security versus say six months ago is this you've not only fix this problem are you in better shape in terms of the protective considerations you have around your technology.
Yeah, I mean, I would say look we took obviously a number of the steps and measures are the you know first just remove the the hackers and well, but also the further secure our the environment you know a host of of action the additional endpoint detection and monitoring tool.
And et cetera, So Oh, we did a post this event.
Okay.
Thank you for that and then back on the.
The underwriting.
You you still have this concern about social inflation and that's kind of the downside that are the real life.
The potential risk of loss ratio is rising.
Every quarter are we from the outside or trying to assess whether those loss ratios reasonably reflect what's what's going on and when I look back at the <unk>.
Loss ratios historically accident year loss ratios at this stage of the cycle they've had a very strong tendency of at least and long tail lines to develop favorably I don't know if that's going to happen this time necessarily but.
If you think about the reasons why that happened in the past do you think of any of those reasons might apply to today, where we are and the cycle now.
[laughter].
And that's something we you know you think about the every day I mean, I you know even when I was commenting on Oh, why sort of contextualize the loss ratio and rate adequacy and my prepared remarks, it's it's it's.
If you look back at the cycle and you see many quarters as I said, you know was the above 22 quarters in our case, where you know rate increases were below the long run loss cost trends and now we're at five and so.
And you think if that plays out.
You have the at least from my vantage point and think about rate adequacy of.
And and loss ratios, a little bit of of longer context and of course, one could make the observation that this.
The cycle not having hit the same highs.
Could be different and the other ones and social inflation clearly.
And unlike really anything I've seen and in the last several decades and so it's hard to know we've seen it impact.
Our casualty lines.
And <unk>.
Nothing really changed the during the pandemic not sure whether the pen debt make emboldens the plaintiff bar.
So Oh I you know, we we try to do the best that we can adding the little bit of maybe bias for of Prudence as we suggested and try to be as transparent as we can be for you and how are we thinking about it right. So.
The difficult a difficult to know for sure.
And Gary whether it's going to play out.
And.
And we take what's there in front of us and we think we're making the right decisions.
Right. Okay. That's helpful. Thank you for those thoughts.
And.
I guess, that's it for me.
Alright, Thank you Gary.
Okay.
As a reminder, if you have a SKU for a question. Please signal of by pressing star one on your telephone Keypads and we'll take our next question from Meyer Shields of K B W. Please go ahead.
Great. Thanks so.
I was hoping for a little more color in small business within commercial because on a year over year on a sequential basis.
It's the only broken out line, where we saw higher retention and higher rates.
And I'm curious as to what's going on there and the market.
So you know are our of our small business has been.
A real positive for us.
Meyer and you know we continue to see opportunities to be able the the girl of the small business the whole dog the more rigs.
And yet we're seeing a little less rate headwind pressure on work comp so.
And it's been historically.
Very very strong the loss ratio and we envisioned it continuing to contribute significantly both on the production side profitability side.
Going forward, we're highly focused on all of the small business.
When we hear.
And macroeconomic commentary about new business formation of our new small business formation does that flow into specialty or commercial.
Say that again I'm, sorry, my aware of our small business shows up.
Well I know what showed up and commercial but when we hear about new business formation that tends to hit the excess and surplus lines market I'm wondering whether that shows up in.
The specialty of commercial segment.
I'm not sure if.
Following all of that the you know the small affinity you know.
The the the affinity programs on the professionally at all obviously show up all in the specialty and Oh and everything else all other P&C lines for the small business show up in commercial so if for example.
And architects and engineers and professional E N O for the singular Oh architect and engineer will show up in specialties the affinity program.
The components of it just like law firms as an example will show up on the commercial and if.
Not sure if that if that helps.
Meyer.
Yeah that was exactly what I'm looking for and then the final question I guess the M P and see.
Fixed maturity duration and moved up the.
Relatively abruptly I guess compared to.
And what still look like long term low.
Interest rates and I was hoping you could talk us through what's driving that.
And I can tell yeah sure, yes, the P&C duration and.
It went from four five to $4 nine ex largely driven by with the with the backup in rates here, we have and and agency MBS portfolio. So as you'd imagine with rates backing up you get slower prepayment speeds and therefore, the duration extends the debt. So that's predominant driver of what's of.
And that the Jewish and pick up there.
Okay is that also what drove the average reading.
And it is a little bit of that but also from my commentary, we held a higher level of short term investments at the end of the year and then made made the payment from that L. P. T. It's obviously in the short term investments would be higher weighted so that dropped it but just to be clear on the P&C portfolio.
Toggled between a minus and a so we're kind of right on that line. So it's pretty easy to move up to the flip from one to the other.
Got it okay, great. Thank you so much.
Thanks Omar.
And there are no further questions at this time I would like to turn the call back the Dino.
Great. Thank you everyone and we look forward are the chatting with you next quarter.
The safe.
Thank you that now completes the call. Thank you for your participation you may now disconnect.
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