Q2 2022 Reynolds Consumer Products Inc Earnings Call
I and, and I as serv, and.
Thank you.
I would now like to turn the conference over to your host, Mark Swartburg, Investor Relations. Please go ahead, sir.
Good morning and thank you for joining us for Reynolds Consumer Products second quarter 2022 earnings conference call. On the call today are Lance Mitchell, President and Chief Executive Officer, and Michael Graham, Chief Financial Officer. For our agenda today, Lance will focus on marketing conditions and our fundamentals, and Michael will review our quarter and outlook. Together our remarks will be approximately 20 minutes, and we will open it up for your question.
During the course of this call, management may make forward-looking statements within the meaning of the federal securities laws. These statements are based on management's current expectations and involve risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results and outcomes to differ materially from those described in these forward-looking statements. Please refer to Reynolds Consumer Products' annual report on Form 10-K and other reports filed from time to time with the Securities and Exchange Commission and its press release issued this morning.
for a detailed discussion of the risks that could cause actual results to differ materially from those expressed or implied in any forward-looking statements made today. Please note management's remarks today will focus on non-GAAP or adjusted financial measures. A reconciliation of GAAP measures to non-GAAP financial measures is available in the earnings release posted under the investor relations heading on our website at ReynoldsConsumerProducts.com.
The company has also prepared a few presentation slides and additional supplemental financial information which are posted on Reynolds' website under the investor relations heading. This call is being webcast and an archive of it will also be available on the website. While we would like to answer all of your questions during the question and answer session, in the interest of time, we ask that you ask one question in a follow-up and rejoin the queue if you have additional questions.
Now I'd like to turn the call over to Lance Mitchell.
Thank you, Mark. We delivered another quarter in line with our earnings expectations in what continues to be a very dynamic environment.
First half and second quarter highlights include continued share strength across our business.
Share gains in branded waste bags, branded disposable tableware, and multiple cooking and baking categories.
A return to shipments aligned with consumption.
further narrowing of the price to cost gap across most of our business, including a further improvement in waste bag profitability.
Delivery and expansion of Revolution Savings.
substantial slowdown in oil consumption has been challenging.
However, category declines have been moderating since late June , our branded volume share is growing again and a number of corrective actions are underway to address this issue.
In addition, lower cost inventory has a positive impact
on foil margins as we head into the holiday season.
I will go into our FOIL plans and other revenue drivers in a moment.
But before I do...
I want to highlight a few things about the environment.
and our unique advantages and position within it.
Our category advisors are diligently working with our retail partners to support our categories and drive traffic. And as you would expect, consumer behavior during these dynamic times is top of mind.
That means we are having numerous discussions about the optimum balance of brands and private label, promotions, pack sizes, and features and displays.
I also want to point out that our price leadership and the cumulative value of our pricing actions, together with declines in aluminum and polyethylene rates.
are producing a closer alignment between price and cost, which we have been pursuing since late 2020.
This translates into an anticipated margin expansion in earnings growth in the fourth quarter and a significant increase in flexibility to invest in trade, advertising, and other category drivers as we plan for the holidays and next year. Michael will elaborate on that shortly.
Now, let's talk about our main drivers of growth, pricing, consumer demand, innovation, manufacturing and supply chain keep.
In the area of pricing, we began increasing foil promotions in June , motivated by the historically strong impact of promotions, and we are encouraged by the consumer and retail response. And while we don'twater people, no one stays hungry.
We are implementing additional promotional activity over the balance of the year, including a substantial step up in October .
in order to drive holiday related demand.
We've announced another round of pricing for our tableware products to offset the additional cost increases for polystyrene resin.
an additional increase for hefty brand waste bags.
In terms of elasticity, the FOIL category is demonstrating the largest increase in elasticity.
prompting many of our actions.
Our other categories are also seeing increased elasticity by comparison to what we were seeing earlier in the year and we are watching them all closely.
Changes in consumer consumption in our categories has been more dynamic than we have seen historically.
we will continue to respond with corrective measures.
Turning to consumer demand.
As you know, our products are in 95% of U.S. households, and we have benefited from the changes and habits triggered by the pandemic.
We've been meeting these changes.
inhabits and as I said earlier
We are uniquely positioned to respond to new opportunities as economic conditions change.
We rely on consumer market research which allows us to better understand who is driving our categories and their needs.
We stepped up these capabilities during the pandemic and made a number of discoveries. For example, an increased portion of men and younger consumers are more active in the kitchens and home than they were prior to the pandemic.
That's a major opportunity in any economic environment.
Here are a few examples of how we're responding to it in this environment.
In FOIL, as I said, we're stepping up promotions, allowing us to hit lower retail price points and increase purchase frequency.
We're also increasing features and displays to drive usage and targeting advertising to reach younger consumers.
In waste and storage we're seeing strong back-to-school demand in branded and private label products and driving the hefty brand through innovation, larger pack sizes, distribution gains, and additional advertising.
and the disposable tableware, we're driving party cups with a particular emphasis on the club channel.
The third driver of our growth is innovation. Our standout innovations continue to be hefty fabuloso and hefty eco-save.
Each of which continues to demonstrate high velocity while also gaining distribution.
Other notable contributors in the corridor near to date include new Hefty Fabuloso 4 and 8 gallon waste bags for use in additional rooms of the house.
private label waste bags with odor control.
Eloso and Hepti EcoSave are delivering as major platforms for innovation and we plan to expand them.
And in terms of new innovation, we just introduced hefty compostable printed paper plates, Reynolds Kitchen compostable wax paper, and other Reynolds innovations are in the pipeline and we plan to introduce a wide range of branded and private label products offering sustainable solutions that are wins for consumers, retailers, and RCP alike.
Our fourth driver is manufacturing and supply chain capabilities.
Staffing and supplied same conditions continue to be challenging, but they are stabilizing and much improved versus late 2020 and 2021 levels.
Before I pass the call to Michael, I'd like to leave you with the following.
We're well positioned for changing economic conditions and we're responding with promotions, pack sizes, advertising, and other pieces of the marketing mix to meet our consumers' increased emphasis on affordability.
The gap between our pricing and material manufacturing and logistics cost increases is nearly closed and we are on course for margin expansion and earnings growth in the fourth quarter and 2023.
This means not only a return to earnings growth, but also increased flexibility to invest in our categories and drive future innovation and consumption.
We are executing with excellence in our mission to simplify daily life so consumers can enjoy what matters most.
extremely proud of the RCP team as we navigate through these dynamic times. We're well positioned to realize the benefits of the actions we've taken over the last two years.
With that, over to you, Michael.
Thanks, Lance, and good morning, everyone. I'll briefly review our second quarter results, then I'll turn to our guide and why we are well positioned for margin expansion in the fourth quarter and 2023. Net revenues in second quarter were $917 million, an increase of 5% over second quarter net revenues of $873 million in 2021, primarily driven by price increases and partially offset by a decline in volume. Adjusted EBITDA for the second quarter was $118 million.
gap between price and materials, manufacturing and logistic cost increases in the third quarter and to see an additional margin benefit in the fourth quarter driven by anticipated progressive easing in aluminum cost and implementation of additional pricing.
Adjusted earnings per share for the quarter was 26 cents.
Turning to our segment performance, details are in our press release in 10Q, so let me give you the highlights.
The 5% increase in net revenues was driven by low to mid-teen increases in pricing in each of our business segments, which was partially offset by a 9% volume decline driven by Reynolds Cooking and Baking and to a lesser extent declines in two other segments.
Our overall price increase of 14% is consistent with the year-to-date increase of 13% and reflects our effectiveness in recovering all material cost increases and a large portion of increases in our manufacturing and logistics costs in the second quarter.
As you know, in May we expected a mid to high single digit volume decline in the second quarter. And as Lance reviewed, slowing foil consumption was a substantial headwind in the quarter. The 19% decline in Reynolds cooking and baking volume also reflected a decline in low margin reroll volume and an additional headwind from timing of retailer replenishment early in the quarter. The next quarter is the mid to high single digit volume decline in the quarter. As you know, in May we expected a decline in low margin reroll volume and an additional headwind from timing of dealer replenishment early in the quarter. As you know, in May we expected a decline in low margin reroll volume and an additional
Whereas volume declined 3% hefty waste and storage, driven by lower waste and food bag usage as consumers are spending less time in their homes. And as Lance mentioned, branded waste bag volume and dollar shares are up in the first half.
Volume was flat in hefty tableware as gains for hefty disposable plates and private label party cups were offset by declines in other disposable tableware. And Presto products volume declined 7% driven by lower waste and food bag usage.
Turning to our outlook for the third quarter of fiscal 22, we expect net revenues to grow 8 to 12% on $905 million in prior years driven by price increases and a low to mid single digit volume decline.
Adjusted EBITDA of $110 to $120 million and adjusted EPS to be in the range of $0.21 to $0.25 per share. For the fourth quarter of fiscal 2022, we expect net revenues to grow 9 to 17% on $1 billion, $21 million in the prior year driven by price increases and flat to slightly down volume. Adjusted EBITDA of $220 to $240 million.
and it adjusted EPS to be in the range of 59 to 66 cents per share.
For the fiscal year 2022, we now expect net revenues to be up 8 to 11 percent on $3,556,000,000 in 2021, driven by price increases and a mid-single-digit volume decline, including the impact from timing of retailer inventory replenishment, primarily in the first quarter of this year. For the EBITDA of $560 to $590 million, adjusted EPS to be in the range of $1.32 to $1.43 per share.
even the inflationary environment.
In terms of other key assumptions, we assume rates for key commodities are stable to easing by comparison to end of July levels and estimate incremental cost pressures of approximately $525 million for the year, which is a $75 million increase by comparison to our expectations reporting the first quarter results.
We estimate depreciation and amortization of $120 million for the year, interest expense of $70 million, and an effective tax rate of 25%. And a capital spending of $135 to $145 million down from our previous estimate of $150 to $170 million driven by extensions and timing of select capacity and other investments.
In terms of phasing, our incremental pricing and cost comparisons have us positioned for substantial margin expansion that we expect in the fourth quarter.
As I just reviewed, the first half results reflected narrowing of the gap between pricing and cost increases.
We expect that trend to continue in the third quarter and for our implemented pricing to fully offset increases in materials, manufacturing, and logistics costs. We also expect SG&A to be up in the third quarter versus prior year due to increases in variable compensation and advertising costs.
As we enter the fourth quarter, we expect to see progressive easing of aluminum costs driven by existing inventory positions and fourth quarter gross margin is expected to also benefit from the implementation of recently announced pricing.
Now before I hand the call back over to Mark and your questions, I want to leave you with a few thoughts on recovery of pre-pandemic travelability.
We anticipate achieving pre-pandemic levels of profitability in 2023.
We estimate this to be in the mid-900 millions when adjusting to current volume levels compared to pre-pandemic gross profit of $880 million. We expect closing of the gap between price and cost increases as I discuss when reviewing the die to be a major catalyst.
In addition, as Lance mentioned, the cumulative value of our price increases is significant. Together with our category leadership positions and the anticipated easing of commodity costs, we expect this will allow us to increase category investment while also gaining additional margin.
And we are expanding Revolution cost savings based on a comprehensive business review, identifying and targeting additional procurement, manufacturing and logistics savings, giving us added scope for investment in margin growth. In closing, we continue to manage through a very challenging environment. I'm encouraged about the actions we've taken as well as the implications for the future results. And with that, I'll hand the call back over to you, Mark. Thanks, Michael. As I turn it over to the operator for your question.
I'd like to remind you that we ask that you ask one question in a follow-up and then rejoin the queue if you have additional questions.
question in a follow-up and then rejoin the queue if you have additional questions. Operator?
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One moment please while we poll for questions.
Our first question comes from Neil Jarouala with Credit Suite. Please proceed with your question.
Hi, this is Tae Obrito for COMO. So you're now guiding to volumes to be down mid-single digits this year. Can you maybe just remind us what was your expectation before and more importantly, what gives you confidence in the new volume outlook, please? Thank you. So the answer to the first question was down low single digits. What gives us confidence in our new volume guide is, you know, this is a very...
maintained all points of distribution and have historical share position.
Our category declines have begun moderating, and we're gaining volume share as we've picked up these promotions.
The EQ volume for 12 weeks ending June 26, which was Q2 essentially.
The category was down 12.2% and Reynolds Rep was down 15.6%. The E2 volume for the four weeks ending July 31st, the category is down 5.6% and Reynolds Rep down 4.4%.
We plan to continue increasing foil promotions, features, and displays through year-end, including a substantial pickup in October to take advantage of lower foil costs and holiday-related demand.
And after many months lagging rental wrap price increases, we've seen private labels begun taking prices up.
and some of the other drivers in our other three business units. We expect our performance in the club channel, which is strong, to continue.
And that's particularly important for tableware.
Hefti Fabuloso continues to gain momentum with new distribution and introduction of multiple new pack sizes.
We are stepping up advertising across our portfolio of hefty waste and storage products and evaluating increases in promotions. We are also introducing new low price.
point pack sizes, and additional value pack sizes.
The changes in consumer consumption in our categories has been more dynamic.
than we've seen historically. And we're continuing to watch it very closely, and we will continue to respond with corrective measures.
Our next question comes from Lauren Leiserman with Barclay. Please proceed with your question.
Great. Thanks. Good morning, everybody. Um, I still just wanted to go back to the, the reasons for the, the lowered, um, the lower D but Don earnings outlook for the year. Cause you know, the conversation on yes, the volume declines in, in foil or worse, but you know, we talked about this before and that you would turn the promotion on. I know you called out, um, the higher cost basket. I'm just curious the sources of, of that big change. Cause it just feels like three Q is a little bit of a shock. Um, and I frankly thought there was maybe a little bit more visibility.
inherent in the business model. So I'm curious mostly about 3Q. Thanks.
Yeah, so the main driver of our guide down is lower volume expectations as we are more in a more inflationary environment and therefore elasticities have gone up.
We estimate approximately three points less volume than we previously expected. Those three points represent about $40 million of a loss contribution margin.
That's all of the $40 million decline in S-DMA-EBA. And when you look at the lower end of our guide of 6-15 and the midpoint of our current guide of 5-75.
So in terms of the three key...
Good
the third quarter EBITDA. In terms of volume, as Lance said, we're in a dynamic environment and elasticities have picked up in all of our categories, particularly in foil.
But as we look at the commodity curve, the value of the pricing we've implemented, and we are expecting a significant increase in earnings in Q4 relative to Q3 as a result.
Specific to Q3, in aggregate, the year-over-year benefit of pricing and revolution is fully neutralized cost increases year-over-year, with the other segments compensating for Reynolds business where we are still working through some of the higher cost aluminum. So it has to be worked through in its subsequent orders.
So this leaves volume in SG&A. We expect volume declines in the range of low to mid-single digits, which is a headwind, but there are some offsetting margin benefits from improved innovation. As an example, hefty waste bags, fabuloso. We got to also have the rental kitchens have performed very well, and we're expecting the same moving forward.
So year on year, the decline really boils down to higher SG&A, with most of our total year over year increases falling in the back half. The key drivers are increased advertising and market research and higher compensation costs, some of which is timing related.
Okay, so just step back for a sec. Okay, so just step back for a sec.
created a delay in the timeline for what you previously expected for moving through some of that higher cost inventory through the P&L. So that's... You got it. Okay, okay. And then the SG&A piece that you were saying, Michael, I'm sorry, I was still, my brain was spinning on the inventory piece. So there's also some higher SG&A that you built in because you're investing more than you'd maybe previously planned.
Yeah. Or is that all timing? Yeah. Okay. Okay, great. Um, and then for four Q, then you get the margin expansion because you're, the timing is back to as planned in terms of moving through that lower cost inventory and then the incremental pricing.
So let me go back to the SG&A point.
The year-over-year decline boils down to higher SGA with most of that total year-over-year increase falling in the back half Right? The key drivers are increased advertising and market research and higher compensation costs.
Okay, all right, great. Okay, I'll leave it there and pass it on. Thank you. I'm fine. You're welcome. Thanks, guys. Okay, thanks, Lauren. Okay, thank you,
Our next question comes from Robert Otenstein with Evercore. Please proceed with your question.
Great, thank you very much. Can you talk a little bit about the competitive environment for trash bags? You know, what you see your competition doing, you know, how the promotional feel looks like, and what you need to do to kind of get that business on a better path.
Yeah, Robert, thank you for the question. We have seen a much more constructive environment in the competitive dynamics and the wastebag category.
As you heard in my prepared remarks, we are announcing another price increase on hefty waste bags. And so when that is completed, we will be recovering almost all of our costs, including labor and logistics, as well as resin, assuming the rest of her holes.
in that category.
So we've seen a very much more positive environment as it relates to the pricing dynamics across the category and you know that it's going to come down to how the consumer consumption plays out as we go forward.
How do you feel about your share trends?
The share trends in the first half were positive and the last four weeks it's been pretty flat.
Okay.
And...
Going over on the aluminum foil side,
How do you see?
that category playing out in terms of consumer choices between private label and branded.
and you see
path for consumers going back more heavily to branded.
As I mentioned in the prepared remarks, we have seen pricing of private label increasing and so to put specific numbers on it, the last 12 weeks private label increased 2.5 share points but in the last four weeks it's been flat. So as we put these promotions in place which has gotten our price points lower
And as we've seen private label prices increasing, we've seen that the price gaps narrow and we've seen that shift back to a more stable position between branded and private label categories.
Okay and then if I can just sneak one more in, given this dynamic environment right which you say that the it's you've never seen or that it's at least more dynamic than in the past a lot of elasticity.
Is your are your conversations with the retailers different in the past the retailers looking at the category in any way more different differently than they had in the past?
I think what we're looking at with the retailers is making sure that we get the price points correct, right? And what happened at Foyo, when you see a category that declined, you see a category
15 points in a quarter, that's historically something we've never seen a double-digit decline in the category.
So, our discussions with them has been about how do we get the price points right in this inflationary environment.
Reynolds Rep 75 foot pre-pandemic traded below $4 on a unit basis, a 75 square foot flagship product.
we've taken pricing to compensate for very high cost aluminum that would up to almost two dollars a pound
The price points went above $5.
So we're now promoting well below that, looking to get below $5 and into the mid-fours as we get into Q4. And that'll be driven by the investments we'll be able to make with lower aluminum costs as we go through that inventory.
But, you know, we'll do that on a sequential basis to ensure that we also have the opportunity to ensure our margins stay strong.
Got it. Thank you very much.
Our next question comes from Andrea Teixeira with JP Morgan. Please proceed with your question.
Thank you. Good morning. So, Lance, I wanted to go back to your comments on private label. Has your mix moved back to that portion of the business and your pricing private label has improved to your point about pricing moving up? Do you see that as an improvement on a sequential basis for your margin? And then a follow up on the cooking and baking, given the meeting, I believe you said meeting consumption decline in the...
big presentation there or a big pack if things have improved sequentially. Thank you so much.
Well there's three questions in there and I want to make sure I understood the first one which was about private label shift. Are you speaking about FOIL or are you looking at all of our categories and are you asking about are we margining up our private label? I didn't quite understand what you wanted the question about.
Yeah, sorry, let me parse out. I think if you could focus on foil and trash bags, I guess those are the most important forms if you can. Because I did see the commentary about Presto not performing that well, so I guess probably what you're seeing is that the store brands have taken a little bit of a share at that point, as you mentioned, but just to.
to check on the price gap commentary that you gave just before. So on FOIL, yes, we did see a shift of private label in the second quarter as we had pricing that was significantly moving faster up than private label. I quoted the last 12 weeks was up 2.5 points in private label share versus us.
but in the last four it's flat.
So as we put the promotions in place and got below the $5 price points,
across all of our sizes, we have been able to at this point see that flattening and no longer shifting the private label.
In waste bags, it's actually the other direction. If you look at the last 12 weeks,
branded share in waste bags has improved one point and the last four is 0.4. So there's not been a shift in the waste bags to private label in our current outlook, or in the current history I should say.
So does that get to your question on private label shifts? Yeah, Lindsay, the one thing on the private label share that you mentioned on Alumino for you, did you capture that because you obviously produce around 40% of your sales on a private label. Did that shift more favorable to you or it's mostly your competitors? I see, okay. So in FOIL, that is one of the categories that we don't have a...
was an issue back in the first quarter. Just wondering how that evolved into the second, as you asked, access to the quarter into the third quarter.
Yeah, well we continue to monitor our retailers' inventories through direct access to a number of inventory tracking tools.
we did see the retail deload of foil and other products as we've anticipated in Q2, but for the last two months we've been shipping in line with consumer demands.
We do know that retailers are, of course, continuing to evaluate their own inventory levels, and we're watching that closely.
Right, but then when you say you're shipping according to demand, the demand is still down.
Yes, but it's moderated, as I mentioned, to 4%, right? So it's significantly different than it was in Q2.
And we have that. All right. Okay.
Our next question is from Mark Aston with Stifel. Please proceed with your question.
Thanks and good morning everyone. I want to maybe come at some of the previous questions in a slightly different way.
Back to your commentary about achieving pre-pandemic.
profit levels next year. I guess maybe to think about it, how should we
model or view the retention of pricing if inputs come down, either in line with expectations or more. And relative to what you all have said from a historical standpoint, which I think was maybe just under 40% retention of pricing if you go back to 18, 19, how does that play out going forward? And sort of related to that, you know, if I'm doing the math right, again, how do we ensure that we are able to to
for your guidance, pricing still has to pretty meaningfully accelerate on a two-year basis over the balance of the year. So how does that factor in and could potentially elasticity with the divorce and get worse even than expectations? Thank you.
Well, I'll answer the first part of the question. I'll let Michael explain a little bit more about 2023 and our outlook for 2023. But we are, we have historically been able to maintain and improve our margins and keep pricing as commodity costs go down and we believe that we will be able to do that in 2023 and in Q4.
In total.
When you look at the price increases that we've taken over a two-year period of time...
It's almost a golden doubt.
So there's a lot of opportunity to be able to margin up within that billion dollars and at the same time invest in our categories to maximize.
promotions and advertising.
Mike, you want to talk about 2023? Yeah, and specifically around the gross profit. So we anticipate achieving prepending levels of profitability in 2023. We estimate this to be around in the mid-900 millions when adjusting to our current volume levels compared to pre-demic gross profit above 880 million.
We expect closing the gap between pricing and cost increases, as I discussed in reviewing the guide, to be a major catalyst.
In addition, as Lance mentioned, the cumulative level of our price increases is pretty significant. Together with our category leadership positions and easing of commodity costs, we expect this will allow us to increase category investment while also gaining additional margin.
Okay, got it. Just one other follow-up on that last point or one of the pieces on that last point, Michael.
So you said volume is still being off where I guess the 23 comments are contingent on volume still being up versus pre-pandemic levels I guess are you all surprised at how many people are saying volume is still being up versus pre-pandemic levels?
the volume degradation that we've seen in 22 and if kind of the world continues to normalize, how do you think about the likelihood that you retain those incremental volumes?
So we've done some extensive studies with an IRI consumption forecast reduction model to look at the effect of...
this volume, how much of it is impacted by pricing and how much of it's impacted by reopening.
And in most of the categories, it's 60% elasticity and 40% reopening.
In foil, it's 76% elasticity and only 24% reopening.
So we believe that there's been a fundamental shift in the pandemic and the use of our categories and we get the pricing right on elasticity, that volume will continue to be above pre-pandemic levels.
Got it. Okay. Thank you.
Our next question comes from Bill Chappelle with Truist Securities. Please proceed with your question.
Thanks. Good morning.
Good morning.
Hey, I'm sorry to keep kind of hammering on the same issue on foil, but I mean on that on that last kind of comment of 76% of the business is elasticity or the issues elasticity. I mean, do you it's hard to kind of buy into that number. I just trying to think fundamentally about the foil category. There's not really a substitute for the category. I mean, if prices are high and you're still cooking or using foil, you still need to use your cook foil and doesn't seem like.
all of your business has gone to private labels. So I'm just trying to understand how that works out, how you haven't had demand destruction. And I guess the question is, do you think you've made a mistake of pricing too far too fast versus just kind of riding out a short term rise in aluminum costs?
Well, the second part of the question, aluminum...
more than doubled during 2022. It went up to over $2 a pound. So if you did the math on that, the earnings destruction by not taking our price up would have been significant, like $75 million. And so we had really no choice but to follow that pricing up.
Yeah, it's just an unfortunate consequence of the commodity drive up that we had to do that from a prices standpoint.
What gives us confidence is both the last four weeks as well as back in 2018 when we crossed a price point when aluminum spiked at that point it went above.
at another price point and when we got it back lower we got the demand back. We do know from our research that consumers are not leaving the category.
They are.
they are stretching out their purchase cycle by deloading and having less
use occasions, in some cases they're buying the lower pack sizes and in some cases the more affluent consumers are buying larger pack sizes and the conditions vary by consumer, but they're not leaving the category. To your point, you know, we've done a lot of study on that. There's not a real substitute there. So getting the price points back will get the purchase frequencies back more normalized.
Okay, and I guess
On that same, I don't fully understand why private label has taken so long to price. I mean you would assume they have worse purchasing power of aluminum than than you do and and but and and would want to maintain their price gaps and margins as much as they could. So any color as to why they've taken so long?
It's been a weak point for you.
That is a question we have asked ourselves over the last year and it remains a mystery to us.
I don't have an answer to that question. I can only speculate that we believe that some retailers were comping off of each other on their store brands and they ate some margin waiting for the others to move.
and that was part of the equation. The other part of the equation may have been the amount of lower cost aluminum that they had in inventory during the run-up, so they felt that the producers felt like they could wait before they took the proson.
We have got no confirmation though that anybody's hedging, so that is not a...
scenario that we've...
believe could have impacted the timing for the private labor producer.
Okay, great. I'll turn it over. Thanks.
As a reminder, if you would like to ask a question, please press star 1 on your telephone keypad.
Our next question comes from Jason English with Goldman Sachs. Please proceed with your question.
Hey folks, thanks for slotting me in. I got three kind of rapid-fire questions, I guess. So thank you for the mid-900s number on gross profit. I think we're all going to step back, say mid-900s gross profit, put 350 million or so on SG&A, 110 is DNA, and walk away saying that you're expecting somewhere in the low 700s from an EBITDA perspective. Is that meaningfully off base?
The SGA number is a bit low because we will have more advertising than that. So I'd say closer to four.
Okay, that's helpful. And then in terms of the fourth quarter, you put a sales range out there that's really wide, but you put a volume number, at least the comments suggest that you've got a pretty tight expectation on volume. I think you sit sort of flat to down slightly, yet total sales plus 9 to 17 suggesting you see at least probably a 500 basis point range on price which is sort of unusual. Usually price you've got better visibility and volumes where the uncertainty lies. What's going on there?
Okay that's helpful and in terms of volume if I do a three-year kegger on Q2 which is effectively like if I do it versus 2019 your volumes down 6% versus 2019 so the whole notion that you're like going to be able to have profit off a higher volume base in this quarter certainly calls it into question is there something unique sort of timing wise that would why this quarter is not reflective of sort of a round trip back to not only pre-covid but actually below pre-covid.
But it sounds like we can follow up offline.
We'll need to, we'll do some math. Yeah, good stuff. Alright, I'll pass it on. Thank you.
Our next question comes from Peter Grom with UBS. Please proceed with your question.
Hey, good morning, everyone. I hope you're doing well. So I guess I wanted to follow up on Jason's question in terms of the 23 guidance. I mean, Lance, you mentioned kind of the flexibility, the pricing action will provide looking out to 23. You mentioned promotion, decrease that, but I guess, you know, how do you really think about the preference from here? Because it seems like you're, if you just assume 400 million in SGA, you're flowing through a lot of upsides to earnings growth of, if you take in the 950 million of gross profit or so is that the right way to think about it?
maybe just break out more specifically what you're expecting in terms of gross margin versus higher SG&A that would drive EPS and adjusted EBITDA to be down strong double digits. I know you mentioned higher incentive comp and ad spend but just any commentary specifically around those two items would be really helpful.
Yeah, so I think the reference is that overall our SG&A is going to be up. Okay. All right. Thank you. And the primary driver of that is being overall compensation.
Never.
Okay, thank you so much.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have reached the end of the question and answer session, and I would now like to turn the call back over to Lance Mitchell for closing remarks.
Thank you everybody for your questions. We appreciate your time this morning. Our business is well positioned for any economic environment and we anticipate earnings growth in the fourth quarter. I want to thank our employees and our retail partners for their dedication and their contributions.
during these challenging and dynamic times.
challenging and dynamic times. Thank you.
This concludes today's conference. You may disconnect your lines at this time. Thank you for your participation.
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