Q3 2022 Mayville Engineering Company Inc Earnings Call
Good morning, and thank you for attending today's Mayville Engineering Company 2022 earnings Conference call.
My name is Danielle and I will be your moderator for today's call.
Lines will be muted during the presentation portion of the call with an opportunity for questions and answers at the end if you'd like to ask a question. Please press star followed by one of your telephone keypad.
I would now like to pass the conference over to our host Nathan Elwood Nathan. Please proceed.
Thank you welcome.
Welcome everyone and thank you for joining us on today's call a few quick items before we begin first please note that some of the information.
This call will consist of forward looking statements within the meaning of section 21 of this the Securities Exchange Act of 1930 people.
Such statements express that expectation anticipation beliefs estimates intentions plans.
Yeah.
Because these forward looking statements involve risks assumptions and uncertainties, our actual results could differ materially from those in the forward.
For more information regarding such risks and uncertainties. Please see our filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission, including our filings on Form 10-K for the period ended December 31st 2020.
We assume no obligation and do not intend to update any such forward looking statements, except as required by federal Securities laws.
Second this call will involve a discussion of certain non-GAAP financial measures reconciliation of these measures to the closest GAAP financial measure is included in the earnings press release, which is available at Mec, Inc.
Joining me on the call today are Jag ready, President and Chief Executive Officer, Todd Booth, Chief Financial Officer, Ryan <unk>, Chief operating officer, and Bryan Bryan EVP of strategy.
Jack will begin with his thoughts on the call that in the end markets.
It's a new business on future flattened followed by Todd will review the financial results and guidance.
Please note that the accompanying slides that are available via the webcast and on the investors section of the company's website Mec, Inc.
With that I'll hand, the call over to Jack. Please go ahead.
Thank you Nathan and good morning, everyone.
On slide three our team executed effectively this quarter producing strong improvements across the board net sales grew approximately 25% adjusted EBITDA increased approximately 61% and net income increased significantly when compared to the third quarter of 2021 improves.
The improvements were primarily driven by volume growth commercial pricing increases and better absorption of manufacturing costs. I am pleased to report that we commenced production at our state of the art facility in Haynesville Park, Michigan during the quarter as planned. Additionally, I'm excited to announce that we launched mec.
Business excellence, our mdx to drive operational and commercial excellence I believe this will be a game changer for Mac and we'll discuss this in more detail. We are refining our full year guidance. Therefore, so theres nearly provider in February which Todd will discuss later.
After 100 days I wanted to share some of my observations and reflections as summarized on slide four.
I had the opportunity to visit all 18 off our manufacturing plants and have met with hundreds of our team members across the organization I have also met with many of our customers and learn more about how vital mackie to their ongoing success. It is clear to me that we are in in <unk>.
Part of our customers' future expansion plans.
During my site visits and meetings with our customers I have identified the following observations as key to our future success.
Company culture is a direct result of our hard working employees, taking great pride in their work to support our customers' needs. This has deepened relationships with customers and enabled us to grow profitably in recent years.
Additionally, the secular trends of re shoring and outsourcing have been confirmed by our customers our investments in automation will support cost reductions volume productivity and quality to meet the increased demand driven by macro trends mec.
So utilization can be improved as we average two shifts per day four days a week with some weekend work, although some of our sites present heightened challenges we see at recent improvements in labor availability we.
We see the potential for significant growth over the next five years.
The trends of re shoring and outsourcing our focused expansion into emerging technologies and adjacent spaces will help maintain and expand our leadership position. We have more room for margin expansion through continued value pricing even beyond the pricing actions taken during 2022.
We also have significant opportunities to improve our operations through standardization lean manufacturing and automation.
Today I am pleased to outline the strategic priorities that will help us achieve our profitable growth aspirations I am now on slide five.
Does that and profitable growth over the next five years, we need to capture the opportunities with current customers, while also diversifying into markets and applications such as electric vehicles and renewables. We also can expand our design prototyping and aftermarket services to better support our customers needs EBITDA margin.
Expansion beyond 15% can be achieved through commercial and operational excellence through strategic and value pricing productivity improvements capacity utilization and purchasing and supply chain improvements in terms of capital allocation. Starting in 2023, we will return to normalized capex spending levels.
Up 20% to $25 million per year.
We plan to focus our M&A activities.
Yes in adjacent markets, specifically lighter weight materials, such as aluminum plastics, and composites and design and prototyping services I remain confident that we have the team and expertise to execute the strategic initiatives and drive long term profitable growth at Max.
Now I would like to turn your attention to our industry outlook and recent customer wins I'm on slide six we.
We currently serve five major end markets, all of which continue to forecast positive near term demand outlooks.
Do you have a vehicle market is our largest market and continues to forecast strong demand through the first half of 2023.
The industry is predicting a slowdown in the second half of 2023 due to expected emissions regulation change in 2020 for the emissions change will again drive increased demand in the subsequent years.
Current ACD forecasts predict 310000 units in 2022, followed by 296000 units in 2023, while the supply chain constraints have continued to impact some TV customers, we expect to see sequential increases over the next couple of quarters due to the sizable backlog that Oems.
We continue to monitor weakening freight fundamentals and forecasted sequential declines through the second half of 2023 and remain ready to adapt to any market changes.
Our scores continue to be an important market for us while its showing some signs of softening retail demand remains generally positive low dealer inventories will continue to drive consistent volumes for the products. We deliver we believe our customers will continue to fulfil retail demand and restart the dealer channel into 2023.
Of course, the power sports market is sensitive to discretionary spending and interest rates and we are keeping a close eye on this industry.
As mentioned on our previous calls we have had many project wins with existing and new customers, which will provide a ballpark the potential market softness the construction on access equipment end markets are now starting to see the impact of rising interest rates and softening of the housing market. However, non residential infrastructure.
Sure and oil and gas markets are seeing some improvement as we look towards 2023.
The need to restock fleet, given the fleet age and low dealer inventories continues to drive near term volumes and are expected to offset weakness in the residential construction market.
We continue to see strengthening demand in the AG market low global stocks strong crop prices and low new and used machine inventory will maintain volume growth in the near term and finally, though the smallest of our end markets automotive freight segment remained stable our customers have solid backlogs for U S government contract.
And we continue to see good volumes based on new vehicle introductions.
While the supply chain disruptions have continued to persist throughout our customer base. We anticipate these supply chain constraints to ease as we move into 2023 importantly, our new business pipeline remains strong we have continued to pursue and convert opportunities with our current customer base.
While focusing on new customers and new markets could drive further diversification.
Let me walk through a few of the exciting opportunities on slide seven.
We recently won a large family of parts for the electric side by side that will make up the battery and closure on the vehicle production out of the side by side model will fully launch in 2023 and was a great example of using our manufacturing expertise to design a cost effective solution for a brand new product for us.
Existing customer.
Last quarter, we made significant progress in working with a new potential customer that focuses on thermal management of electric vehicle batteries and battery and closures.
The family of parks, where coty will be used in multiple applications and provide us with a great opportunity to expand into the EV space recent.
Recently, we were awarded a high value takeaway project for our current AG customer supporting our product families for high horsepower crackers based on our history of quick turn products one of the business for this exciting project.
<unk> auto earlier win in the light duty truck market. We have continued to engage with the market leading engine manufacturer to develop additional opportunities on this new product platform, we have been able to win incremental business. As this project reaches the conclusion of its design phase and shifts into production opportunities for reassuring.
<unk> continued to grow and I am pleased to report that we closed on a project by a commercial vehicle customer in the last quarter. We are scheduled to start production in early 2023, bringing production to the U S. Replacing an Asian supplier. We also enabled to expand with a new customer in the industrial and infrastructure space to supply.
<unk> structural components and enclosures. While this relationship is new we have been able to quickly support urgent product needs and expect to grow this business in the years ahead.
Overall, it is clear that both our business with current customers plus our pipeline of projects with both existing and new customers remains strong as we look towards 2023.
As I said when I joined my initial focus will be on accelerating our use of innovation technology and lean manufacturing initiatives to help drive profitable growth. The launch of Mec business X months or Mdx program is an important first step in that process as summarized on slide eight.
The focus of Mdx is to drive operational and commercial excellence across the company and it will be a little part of our achieving our profitable growth potential in the years ahead.
Mac has consistently used lean tools within our operations for many years of dedicated Mdx program will significantly accelerate our efforts and drive exponential improvements across all of our processes led by a newly appointed team. The program will focus on strategy deployment operational excellence commercial.
<unk> and talent management.
This will include value stream mapping lean daily management and productivity Kaizen events led by Mdx Lean engineers in all facets of our business as demonstrated on slide nine each quarter. The mdx team will lead a special event known as the President's case them. These events will include.
Members of the executive team to further illustrate companywide commitment to our lean journey in September we held our first President's kaizen in Maple, while targeting a specific well center process that team applied several lean tools to significantly improve throughput and reduce labor hours reduced inventory enhanced.
Safety and drive meaningful cost reductions we are pleased with the results of our initial event and the launch of <unk> and look forward to the team developing in 2023 and beyond.
I also want to provide an update on the situation with our former fitness customer.
Despite best efforts the company was unable to reach an amicable resolution with its former pickup customer and therefore filed a breach of contract lawsuit and the Supreme Court of the state of New York in August the company remains confident in the protections afforded by the contract provisions.
The total amount of damages claimed is substantial but the amount and the timing of the ultimate recovery is uncertain.
As a result any recovery from this litigation or settlement of these claims is a contingent gain and will be recognized if.
Unworn realized or realizable.
At this point there isn't much more we can say on this subject except that we will provide updates as and when we can going forward.
Our Haynesville, our Michigan facility is an important part of our future and I am proud to report that we commenced production as planned during the quarter.
The ramp up in production will continue in the coming quarters. The team has done a remarkable job of launching on time and in line with our plans, providing us with the capacity and the state of the operations in a market with solid labor availability and.
In conclusion I want to thank all of our team members for embracing the change and helping to channel ideas into our updated strategy for <unk>.
Stable growth.
It's been an important quarter for the company in which we began a critical journey to build on our proud history implement new initiatives and expand our horizons to ensure we obtain our full potential in the years ahead now I will turn the call over to Todd for a review of our financial results.
Thanks, Jay I'll begin with a look at our third quarter, which is summarized on slide 10.
We recorded third quarter net sales of $136 $3 million, which is a 25% increase year over year the.
The increase was primarily driven by improved volumes due to the overall strengthening of the business.
<unk> pricing increases in contractual raw material price pass throughs to our customers.
Manufacturing margins were $15 5 million for the quarter.
As compared to $10 9 million in the prior year period.
This was driven by improving demand improved absorption of manufacturing costs and commercial pricing increases.
These improvements were partially offset by a downward shift in scrap income <unk> launch costs and continued customer supply chain issues during the quarter.
Manufacturing margin percentages were 11, 3%, which is a 130 basis point improvement over the 10% recorded in the prior year period.
Some of the challenges previously mentioned.
SG&A expenses were $6 5 million.
As compared to $5 3 million for the same prior year period, due to higher consulting and professional fees.
All the transition costs as well as continued inflationary pressures on wages and benefits.
For the third quarter income tax expense of $1 5 billion.
Pre tax income of approximately $8 one.
Our federal net operating loss carry forward was approximately $18 5 million as of quarter end.
By pre tax losses incurred in prior years.
The NOL does not expire and will be used to offset future pre tax earnings.
We continue to anticipate our long term effective tax rate to be approximately 27% based on current tax regulations.
Adjusted EBITDA increased to $16 1 million versus $10 million for the same quarter last year.
Adjusted EBIT margin percent increased by 260 basis points to 11, 8%, representing an incremental margin of 22, 5%, which is consistent with our historical average.
It removes the impact of customer supply chain issues raw material price pass throughs are incremental margin would've been 25, 6%, which is above our historical average.
Basic earnings per share were <unk>.
31, <unk> increase over last year as improvements I've already mentioned drop through to the bottom line.
As well as the onetime positive impact of unique items that totaled <unk> 11 per share which includes stock forfeitures from our former Ceo's third quarter retirement.
Now, let me address our capital expenditures balance sheet liquidity.
Year to date capital expenditures were in line with our expectations at approximately $38 8 million.
As compared to $26 6 million for the same prior year period.
The increase relates to the ongoing Buildout repurposing of our Eagle partner visits, Michigan facility and our continued investment in technology and automation.
As shown on slide 11, our total outstanding debt was $74 1 billion.
At September 32002.
As compared to $56 9 million at the same point last year the increase in debt relates to capital spending our balance sheet remains strong with the leverage ratio of one three times at the end of the quarter.
We continue to see a solid pipeline of M&A opportunities and are focused on new markets that materials, such as aluminum plastics and other lightweight materials and new customers to continue to diversify our business.
Strategic fit and rational valuation remain our top considerations as we refocus our M&A effort.
Now I'd like to discuss <unk> 'twenty, two guidance, which is shown on slide 12.
We are refining the financial outlook, we first provided in February and have adjusted our expectation that follows.
Net sales of between 480 $530 million has been updated to between $520 million $540 million.
Adjusted EBITDA between $58 million $70 million has been updated to between 58 million $65 million.
As it stands today, our revenues are expected to be at the high end of our original range due to raw material price pass throughs.
However, due to falling scrap income prices increased legal costs and continued near term inefficiencies related to customer supply chain issues. We expect EBIT result to be between the midpoint and the low end of the range.
This forecast also assumes no major supply chain disruptions or other customers or other unusual events at our end markets as well as any recovery associated with the former fitness customer.
We continue to expect our capital spending to be between $55 65 billion for the full year of 2022.
The primary focus is our investment in new technology and automation. The addition of equipment related to new programs with existing customers costs associated with production at our April per facility.
We are nearing the end of the unusually high Capex cycle, and expect 2023 to return to more normalized spending levels of approximately 20% to $25 million per year.
In summary, our third quarter results continue to reflect steadily improving volume trends, which in conjunction with commercial pricing increases has helped deliver improved results.
While the supply chain disruptions affecting our customers' inflationary pressures persist.
Term end market demand remains generally saw that.
That concludes my comments and I'll turn the call back over to Jay.
Our recent performance and current outlook of the business remains positive as we manage the demand trends we are seeing across our end markets. However, we are monitoring market changes staying in constant communication with our customers and we'll be ready to adapt as needed.
We are maintaining and expanding the relationships we have with some of the best Blue chip companies in the world and are pursuing numerous opportunities with potential new customers and new end markets. We're focused on profitable growth into new platforms margin expansion with lean initiatives and innovation to drive competitive.
We are off to a great start and I'm very excited about the future of Mac with that operator, we would like to open the call for questions now. Thank you.
Certainly we would like to ask a question. Please press star followed by one on your telephone keypad. If for any reason you would like to remove that question. Please press star followed by two again to ask a question. Please press star one as a reminder, if you are using a speaker phone. Please remember to pick up your handset before asking your question Paul.
Here briefly as questions are registered.
The first question comes from Vlad strictly from.
From Citigroup. Please proceed.
Good morning, Walter I think one call.
So.
Nice nice quarter and results.
Thanks for some of the strategic.
Strategic upload.
Update I should say around around.
Some of the long term priorities and what Youre doing with Mdx.
Thinking about.
Mdx can you maybe give us more color on.
How you are going about implementing M. B, whether you have the tally.
Talent and skill you need to sort of drive this more focused.
Approach and wider approach it seems to lean and just how you're thinking about.
The runway for Mdx.
Driven.
Improvements to manifest.
Yes, sure I'll take that I'll start with my comments flat and then I'll pass it on to Ryan to expand on our implementation.
Hello, Mdx is critical of vital for our profitable growth future.
Even though as I mentioned in my prepared remarks.
Mac has historically used lean tools.
<unk> program with a dedicated team across our network.
We'll bring sustainable implementation of our programs.
We're going to accelerate the number of <unk>, we have dedicated teams in the plants right now that are going to drive these guys Ams and utilizing not only internal but also some external resources to offset short term.
And our strength for the Mdx team I'm going to Paas trimaran expand on implementation.
Well thanks for the question again many of these tools, we've been using for quite some time, but it is the acceleration that Jack talked about and so with that acceleration. We've dedicated a team fully committed to <unk>. So we have a team of engineers led by our vice president focusing making sure we're driving us across.
All aspects of the company. So it is just an acceleration in <unk>.
I'll say, a hyper focus upon what we are doing in the past and so we do have those skill sets and we have those capabilities.
So we feel very confident about the impact of this is going to have across the organization.
Okay. That's that's helpful.
And then maybe just a follow up I mean, I know, you're not guiding to 'twenty three yet but.
As we think about the outlook into 'twenty three here if I just look at sort of the end market industry outlook, obviously slipped some some mix.
Some mixed trends there and obviously concerns about the macro so I guess can you just talk about.
Given.
Your work on on new wins, and re shoring opportunities et cetera, how youre thinking about.
The potential or the likelihood of being able to drive growth I think we are going into sort of a broader macroeconomic slowdown here in 'twenty three.
Sure, let me take that amount.
Todd can chime in as well.
Generally speaking, we think about the business in two ways. One is the base business. We currently have us in 2022, and then the new growth opportunities. We have one that will also start up it pretty quickly.
Before I actually do that and I'll, let me.
Say that we're not providing any guidance for 2023, yes, right. We'll obviously provide that guidance of the appropriate time, but given the uncertain times, we have Ryan I think it's helpful for us to think through this way so the base business right every almost all of our customers today are indicating.
<unk> growth next year.
Alright.
But we're also.
Many of those customers are publicly traded companies that many of you follow.
And we're seeing the same information that is publicly available today.
So that indicates that there is some growth next year from the base business, but at the same time, we're taking into consideration all external factors and if we assume even if it's small.
Pulled back the demand.
The base business, we feel that we have enough new business, that's coming into 2023 that could offset that potential softness in the base business right.
So unless the markets turn significantly and it's a deeper downturn right. Then that's a different discussion that we can have at that point, but sitting here almost in Q4, we feel pretty good about next year and we're thinking about that in terms of base business versus our new business.
Okay, that's really helpful color.
That is certainly that we're not providing guidance at this point right, we will attach appropriate but to Jack's point as it stands today volumes.
Market generally looks solid for next year.
That would be mdx launching the pricing carryover activities that happened in 2022, and hopefully supply chain kind of balancing out and getting corrected and our customers will lead to a higher net income our expectation for next year would be better income better EBITDA and along with that.
This will improve free cash flow.
Jay spoke earlier $20 million to $25 million normalized capex inventory levels because of supply chain issues are a little high right. Now. So we would expect turns to get better as we move into 2023.
The steel pricing has come down so in a general sense, we feel very positive about next year, we're really not ready to provide guidance at this time.
No that's that's understandable.
Really helpful color, Thanks, guys I'll get back in queue.
Thank you next.
The next question comes from Mig <unk> of Baird.
Please proceed.
Thank you for taking the question good.
Good morning, everyone.
Sticking with this lack.
Last comment maybe.
We're looking at margins in Qatar I appreciate that you expect improvement here, but.
Looking at the fourth quarter can you comment at all as to how you see the manufacturing margin your gross profit.
Evolve sequentially.
Because I'm thinking about 2023, if we're in an environment in which volumes are at least stable.
It sounds like some of the cost pressures are.
At least starting to moderate if not not.
Oh, great reverse in some cases.
Is it fair to expect a manufacturing margin too.
Recover to more normalized levels, you know something like call. It 2019 type levels.
Thanks for the question.
I expect that to be above 2019 levels quite frankly, we're already to provide our low end of our guidance is at record in comparison to 2019. So.
Even with let's call it similar slightly less volumes this year because of material price pass throughs.
Compared to 2019 were delivered record EBITDA and earnings.
We're over performing 2019 by more than 10%. So my expectation is at this point.
Our margin profile will continue to look better than 2019 now when we think about Q4 and why are we kind of narrowed our guidance, we do have rising interest rates.
We have continued exits expected supply chain issues with our customers and there is potential for some legal costs in Q4 outside of that we have holidays, certainly we expect maybe customers may take a day or two.
Schedule because of supply chain issues on their end, but as we get into 'twenty. Three anything's alleviated. We are also very confident that we can deliver again improved results, but not only that but hit our 15% adjusted EBITDA goal.
Understood.
And then.
This industry outlook Slide you provided is very informative I am sort of looking to clarify something and I apologize if I missed this but is.
You're framing 2023 market outlook. This is.
What do you what do you have on this slide is your interpretation as to how these end markets will progress in terms of either acceleration or deceleration is it.
Youre not really seeing yet any declines in production levels from your customers in areas like power sports and construction equipment.
Is that correct why hasn't that interpretation correct, yes, that's exactly right. Mike. This is absolutely. The 2020 outlook here is our interpretation of how it might turn out right.
But as I've said earlier most of our customers are not indicating any declines right.
All being reasonably.
Stable are bullish in their outlook, so far but.
Being realistic and we're internally, saying that hey, the market.
Softens.
In our base business right. This is how it would look like and where the areas that might be soft right. That's why we're trying to communicate here, but having said that right. Although when I add that you know even in power sports, we have new business that we're going to be producing next year, new customers and new programs right. So even in an industry that might be.
<unk>, we feel like we have new business to offset that potential softness and I'm going to ask Brian to chime in.
I think Mig generally right now we still see a macro trend of the majority of the industry is having relatively low inventory compared to retail demand and certainly in the short term there is some refilling of the pipeline.
It needs to take place as we look out into 'twenty three certainly the rising interest rates.
The impact on <unk>.
At central structure than other things affecting.
The construction in access equipment.
We also see things like strong rental capex and good signals from our customers about each fleets that are in the rental fleets and other things with it.
I'd like to think it could provide some potential tailwind.
So too early to call that out into 'twenty three.
Power sportswear injects certainly new business coming online.
Generally we feel like we play in the power sports for the high end premium product.
As some independents from interest rates when you think about it.
Interest rates affecting that discretionary income those buyers might have so as we've looked at next year certainly interest rates. We believe we will have an impact.
Hard to quantify that.
Inventory and the need to restock.
Going back to that.
Initial comments customers are generally assuming strong demand signals that year over year, we believe it would be flat to up we'll continue to monitor that as we go into 'twenty three.
We remain very.
Our ability to convert new business.
Sure some incremental growth as we go into next year.
Understood.
That makes sense.
Last question.
Maybe one on.
M&A and capital deployment.
You mentioned some new technologies here that are of interest to you plastics and in aluminum and I'm kind of curious if you can expand on that I mean are you looking to get into things like injection molding and the like and.
I guess I'm curious also in terms of what you perceive to be sort of the <unk>.
Competitive edge or core competency of Av.
Maybe bill.
I for one have always thought of it as metal fabrication right, but.
Jag It seems to me like you were thinking more broadly than that which obviously has strategic implications for the company.
Yeah, Thanks, Mike Yeah.
When I first came in right in the first round of answered as it looked at what do we do well right.
Help our customers produce the best products.
Very competitive price and we have the footprint.
And the supply chain capability to support short lead times to this customer right. So if you take that premise and then say what else can we help our customers with and one of the problems are pinch points that customers are facing right now right now we're going to be product designers, but we do a lot of design our partnerships with our customers as they are.
You know trying to welcome a design phase into manufacturing phase III design for manufacturing all of those services are an important piece of our offering we don't do a lot are definitely we don't have commercially priced spilt activities today, and that's an area where customers as they talk to them many have indicators that theyre struggling with.
Engineering talent right, they're struggling with lead times to market. So all of these areas will help us help our customers to speed up their design to manufacturing rights speed to market. So it is then services prototyping services are important element, where we can really help our customers. Similarly, as we think about kind of your trans.
Lycian and growing customers going to EV platforms right of light weighting in general even for I think Jim's right light weighting is really important where generally its steel fabricator right. Many customers are asking us for other areas, where we could help them given our performance in Illinois.
Long term partnerships with these customers some.
Some of the customers ask us about aluminum right Hey, guys can you do aluminum fabrication, while thats not an area today, we focused on we have some offerings, but not a lot. So that's another area. We think that is really beneficial for us to enter into particular aluminum fabrication in the long run and then we can support our customers and then.
Beyond that we have gone into so this is something that I learned I did not go on day, one, but certainly as I was going through a lot of our plants Island, we do a lot of sub assemblies right. We do.
Cable assemblies.
We've actually put together a metal components with plastic components right. So as I looked at all of that and we said look we can get into more value added services, such as sub assemblies and assemblies and perhaps you know instead of buying some of those plastic components from a third party supplier and know something in house, we can also get it.
To that right. So that's how we're thinking about right how can we expand our offerings. How we further support our customers' growth and that's the reason why we feel like we have the right to play in those adjacent markets and that's where we are refocusing our efforts is eminent.
Very interesting thank you for that.
Thanks.
Thank you Eric currently no additional questions registered at this time so as a reminder, it is star followed by one on your telephone keypad to ask a question.
Okay well.
Thank you everyone for your time today and your continued interest in Mac, we look forward to speaking with some of you adopt Cummings bird and Sidoti conferences.
Yeah.