RioCan Real Estate Investment Trust Q1 2023 Earnings Call

Speaker 1: you've made again.

Speaker 2: Thank you and good morning everyone. I am Jennifer Seuss, Senior Vice President, General Counsel, ESG and Corporate Secretary of RioCan. Before we begin, I would like to draw your attention to the presentation materials that we will refer to in today's call, which were posted together with the MDNA and financials on RioCan's website yesterday evening.

Speaker 2: Before turning the call over, I am required to read the following cautionary statement. In talking about our financial and operating performance and in responding to your questions, we may make forward-looking statements including statements concerning RioCan's objectives, its strategies to achieve those objectives, as well as statements with respect to management's beliefs, and their

Speaker 2: plans, estimates and intentions and similar statements concerning anticipated future events, results, circumstances, performance or expectations that are not historical facts. These statements are based on our current estimates and assumptions and are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause our actual results to differ materially from the conclusions in these forward-looking statements.

Speaker 2: In discussing our financial and operating performance and in responding to your questions, we will also be referencing certain financial measures that are not generally accepted accounting principle measures, GAAP, under IFRS. These measures do not have any standardized definition prescribed by IFRS and are therefore unlikely to be comparable to similar measures presented by other reporting issuers.

Speaker 2: non-GAAP measures should not be considered as alternatives to net earnings or comparable metrics determined in accordance with IFRS as indicators of RioCan's performance, liquidity, cash flows and profitability. RioCan's management uses these measures to aid in assessing the trust underlying for performance and provides these additional measures so that investors may do the same.

Speaker 2: Additional information on the material risks that could impact our actual results and the estimates and assumptions we applied in making these forward-looking statements, together with details on our use of non-GAAP financial measures, can be found in the financial statements for the period ended March 31, 2023 and management's discussion and analysis related thereto as applicable, together with RioCan's most recent...

Speaker 3: and the FFO guidance we provided in our last call. With each successive quarter since our investor day, our operating results reflect the precision with which we execute our strategy. So let's dive into our Q1 operating results. Now, as simply said, these results speak for themselves. They support our confidence in achieving the ambitious growth target that we set out in our five-year plan. Just like the quarters that preceded it, the first quarter of 2023 demonstrated our portfolio's quality, our tenants' resilience, and our team's extraordinary depth and capability.

Speaker 3: By every measure, RioCan's well-positioned assets, stable tenant mix, and development progression drove strong results that translate into predictable outcomes.

Speaker 3: These results reflect our focus on the pillars that support our five-year plan, Brazilian retail, customer centrism, intelligent diversification, and responsible growth.

Speaker 3: Our commitment to these pillars continues to yield results. Our assets are in Canada's major markets in densely populated areas with high average household incomes of $135,000 and an average population of 250,000 people within a 5 kilometer radius of your average RioCan property.

Speaker 3: increase to 86.8% this quarter. Same property on OI for the quarter grew by 3.4%. FFO per unit was $0.44.

Speaker 3: This reinforces our confidence in our FFO per unit target of $1.77 to $1.80 per unit for the entire year.

Speaker 3: committed occupancy was 98% and rent per square foot for new leasing in the quarter was $28.57 well above the average net rent for the portfolio which is $21.13.

Speaker 3: These exceptional occupancy levels, retention rates, and leasing spreads continue to be driven by intense demand for RioCAM's quality retail space, the sort of retail space that's, well, simply put, in short supply. Your management team will continue to operate with excellence and find strategies that mitigate the impact of current concerns, such as interest rates, an anticipated recession, and more limited access to capital. It's worth taking a moment to unpack these issues in the context of RioCAM's business and seeking an explanation of how we've maintained and will continue to extract...

Speaker 3: has access to capital and substantial liquidity.

Speaker 3: We consistently demonstrate the ability to utilize our established network and track record to access the most efficient forms of financing.

Speaker 3: The retail landscape in Canada is also vastly different than in much of the world. Compared to the US, Canada has far fewer competing tenants for retail categories.

Speaker 3: We also have approximately 40% less square footage of retail per capita than the US.

Speaker 3: A few factors will continue to temper the supply of retail space, including Canada's tight zoning regulations.

Speaker 3: In addition, the vast gulf between replacement costs and market values makes building new retail a very unlikely proposition.

Speaker 3: And then there's our commitment to immigration. Canada is the fastest growing country in the G7 and is projected to welcome approximately half a million qualified productive newcomers each year.

Speaker 3: These new Canadians naturally gravitate to transit-oriented major market locations to live and subsequently to shop.

Speaker 3: These are the same markets in which retail space is supply constraint.

Speaker 3: These factors converge to drive demand and create positive tension in lease negotiations for precisely the kind of well-located bricks and mortar spaces that RioCan offers.

Speaker 3: This was clearly evidenced by the immediate and pronounced demand for our Bed Bath and Beyond locations.

Speaker 3: While these locations contributed towards less than 1% of RioCan's revenue, I'm highlighting this example as it underscores the demand for the limited available retail space in Canada. Upon the retailer's CCAA filing in February , RioCan commenced negotiations with numerous box tenants who expressed interest in all 13 of our locations.

Speaker 3: Despite the positive progression of these negotiations, several strong retailers chose to take a more secure route and they purchased locations directly from the receiver who was running the process.

Speaker 3: In total, ten of RioCan's locations were snapped up in the auction process run by the receiver. Retailers were unwilling to risk losing these sites.

Speaker 3: And for RioCan, the process resulted in the ability to fill the spaces with strong pennants, zero down time, and no outlay of capital.

Speaker 3: Regarding our three locations that weren't sold through the CCAA process, we finalized one lease and were in final stage negotiations for the remaining two.

Speaker 3: The current supply-demand dynamic is expected to continue for the foreseeable future. This dynamic is one of numerous factors that bolster our confidence.

Speaker 3: It's also worth noting that as the real estate transaction market starts to pick up, we're seeing an increase in the number of data points that suggest that high quality assets are holding their value.

Speaker 3: Specifically, in spite of interest rate fluctuations, we're seeing limited impact on cap rates from major markets, open-air, retail centers. The type of retail that comprise our portfolio is also very relevant.

Speaker 3: Our properties generate resilient and growing income from a strong and stable base of tenants, anchored by necessity uses like grocery stores, stores, pharmacy and value retailers.

Speaker 3: While these are precisely the uses that perform well and generate organic growth, even in turbulent economic conditions.

Speaker 3: Simply put, high quality properties plus high quality tenants results in high quality cash flows. These factors in turn support strong valuations.

Speaker 3: As you know, RealCan complements organic growth with intelligent diversification.

Speaker 3: Despite market conditions, our success in this area further supports our confidence.

Speaker 3: There is considerable detail regarding our development program and our disclosure, however, I'm going to provide a few highlights for you. We've leased approximately 94% of the total commercial space at the well, which as you hopefully all know by now is our flagship makes use development in Toronto.

Speaker 3: 82% of the retail component is leased, which represents a 10 percentage point increase over the previous quarter.

Speaker 3: We have an additional 6% in advance negotiations for a total of 88% of the retail space either leased or in advance negotiation.

Speaker 3: Our six condo townhouse projects under construction are 86% pre-sold, achieving 96% of pro forma growth revenue.

Speaker 3: We've got significant deposits for these units which provide security against the unlikely but always possible scenario of home buyer default.

Speaker 3: Between 2023 and 2026, RioCam will realize approximately $860 million in sales revenue from these projects.

Speaker 3: Between 2023 and 2026, RioCam will realize approximately $860 million in sales revenue from these projects. Our residential rental revenue also continues to increase.

Speaker 3: This rental revenue diversifies our cash flows and offers high embedded growth potential.

Speaker 3: REACAM Living now has 10 purpose-built residential buildings in operation. The man for these units continues to be excellent.

Speaker 3: The NOI generated from our residential rental operations in the first quarter was $4.3 million, an increase of $1.9 million over the same period last year.

Speaker 3: There is, however, no question that interest rates are creating unwanted pressure. The Ale Can has taken meaningful steps to keep that expense as low as possible.

Speaker 3: We've proactively employed various financial tactics, including staggering the maturities of long-term debt and limiting the use of floating rate debt to minimize exposure to interest rate fluctuation.

Speaker 3: As Dennis will explain to you shortly, we benefited from hedging activity where we took advantage of significant dips in the bond market and locked in favorable Government of Canada bond rates for both future, planned and prior financing activity. These measures are all part of our commitment to responsible growth, which, again, Dennis will speak about in a moment.

The last factor that supports my conviction and RioCan's ability to deliver long-term value cannot be underestimated. It's the team. This team has weathered pandemics, tenant departures, recessions, financial meltdowns and more. This team, like our portfolio, has demonstrated resiliency and the ability to deliver in any kind of condition.

Each day their talent, creativity and commitment drive our strategy forward. I'm grateful for them and I confidently say that your trust is in very good hands. As always, we're prudently managing risks, maintaining a healthy balance sheet with strong liquidity and access to various financing channels. Our high quality portfolio and operational excellence provide respite against risk.

used to describe the economic environment. Commultuous, volatile, unstable. I'm going to say it more informally, I mean it's pretty nuts out there. But what I want to leave you with is the words that describe RioCan's performance in this same environment. Predictable, solid, stable, sustainable. I'm going to say it more informally, I mean it's pretty nuts out there. Predictable, solid, stable, sustainable.

This foundation, strength of vision, and demonstrated commitment to responsible growth will continue to serve our unit hold as well and at the same time position the trust for continued success as market stability returns.

With that, I'll turn the call over to Dennis, who will take you through our balance sheet and provide insight into how it continues to support RioCan's quality and growth. So, Dennis, over to you.

Thanks Jonathan, and good morning to everyone on the call. RioChem's strong results this quarter were driven by continued operating strength, as seen across a number of KPIs, from occupancy to retention ratio to leasing sprint.

Over the last number of quarters, RioCan has consistently delivered operating results that are among the strongest in its history.

This is a testament to the quality of the portfolio as it stands today, which continues to benefit from the long-term macro tailwinds that have created a supply-demand dynamic that is favorable for our business.

FFO for the quarter was 44 cents per unit. 2 cents or 4.8% higher than the same period last year.

Same property NLI growth of 3.4% in our commercial real estate, which is driven by our strong operating performance, increase FFO by 2 cents per unit.

An additional two cents per unit increase was driven by the ramp up of development and residential rental operation.

We also had lease files for the quarter, predominantly related to a single tenant in Alberta that had already been backfilled, which provided another one cent per unit. These increases were partially offset by higher interest expense, which net of higher interest income reduced FFO by one cent per unit.

Finally, assets sold over the course of last year net of the benefit of prior year share buybacks reduced FFO per unit by 2 cents.

This short-term drag on FFO per unit due to asset sales occurred because a large portion of the capital generated from these sales was recycled into development projects that have yet to stabilize. Despite this short-term impact we firmly believe that recycling capital from the sale of lower quality assets into high quality development assets with greater growth potential.

will further enhance our portfolio and create substantial value in the medium to long term.

Turning to our balance sheet, net asset value per unit at the end of the quarter was $25.83 per unit, an increase of 10 cents per unit from Q4 2022. The NAV increase was driven by retained income after distribution adding to our equity.

Our FFO payout ratio of 59.3%, the lowest among our peers, allows us to retain earnings on our balance sheet and reinvest in our business, which we expect will compound value over the long term.

This was partially muted by a modest fair value write down in the quarter of $17 million, which left our investment property values essentially flat at $14 billion.

Net debt to EBITDA trended downward slightly, ending the quarter at 9.48x.

EBITDA contributions from development deliveries are the primary driver in decreasing net debt to EBITDA, with 66,000 square feet of net leaseable area delivered in the first quarter out of approximately 600,000 square feet expected to be delivered this year.

As development deliveries accelerate over the balance of the year, we expect our net debt to EBITDA to continue its downward trend through this year and into the next.

Increased EBITDA was partially offset by an increase in proportionate net debt of $68 million. As we continue to invest in our development properties, included related assembly acquisitions partially offset by $42 million of funds raised through completed dispositions.

As for financing activities, we completed a number in the quarter, evidencing the continued availability of capital in the Canadian market, especially for high quality borrowers like Rio Cafe.

In January , we refinanced $200 million of bank term debt with three-year bank term debt at 4.93%. In March, we issued $200 million of 4.6 years unsecured debentures at a rate of 5.18%, including the benefit of hedges, a rate that was 43 basis points below the market at that time.

Proceeds of the issuance were used to repay existing debentures upon maturity in April . Also in March, we secured $126 million of CMHC financing for our Queen and Ashbridge residential rental project.

The debt has a 10-year term and will be drawn over the construction period converted to a term loan upon project completion. The interest rate is fixed at 3.07% and the amortization period is 50 years.

This is an example of what RioCan can achieve by incorporating affordability, energy efficiency, and accessibility into its projects. Finally, subsequent to quarter end, we extended our $1.25 billion corporate credit line by one year to 2028. This extension was on existing terms. We continue to use interest rate hedging to reduce risk.

Our hedging activity, combined with our liquidity of $1.7 billion and our uncovered asset pool of $8.3 billion, mitigates risk and provides us with the financial flexibility in the current market conditions.

In summary, the strong results in the first quarter are a testament to RioCan's high-quality portfolio, operational excellence, leasing prowess, and development expertise, while our necessity-based tenants and strong balance sheets insulate us from risk.

With that, I will pass the call to the operator for questions. Thank you. If you would like to ask a question, please press star followed by one on your telephone keypad. If you would like to withdraw your question, please press star followed by two.

When preparing to ask your question, please ensure your device is unmuted locally. First question comes from Sam Damiani with TD Cohen. Your line is open.

Thank you. Good morning, everyone. Just on the capital markets, are you finding it much harder to dispose properties today in the current environment and how would that impact your capital deployment plans over the next few years?

So, I think it's an interesting time. I think that there's this view that no one is buying properties these days. And at the same time, no one is looking to sell properties that much these days. Because no one is certain as to where appropriate cap rates are, but I think that is starting to this.

I mean, look, first of all, as you know, it's not a significant part of our plan this year to sell a lot of assets, but to the extent we are looking to sell assets, whether it's from a qualitative perspective or a quantitative perspective, we have a reasonable amount of buyers who are counterparties that we're dealing with in all regards. They come from different stripes and colors.

but they're there. So I don't think that it is a very strained investment environment, and certainly there's a little more clarity that's been provided by these data points. I'm happy to turn it over to Andrew Duncan, our CIO, just to reflect on that if there's any more reflections. Andrew? No, I think, John , you're absolutely correct. We're seeing...

Not nearly as much activity as past year, but we're definitely seeing an increase in activity and to your point I think the buyer pool is very diversified You're seeing privates, you're seeing family offices taking advantage of some of the opportunity where they may not have been players previously.

So I do think, Senator, I do think it's important to reiterate though that our base case plan does not require us to sell assets to fund our development program. Our retained cash flow plus project level debt covers off our commitments from a development perspective so that part of the plan is covered. If opportunistically we can sell assets and recycle into other assets for example like you've seen in some of our disclosure recent recent.

When you look at those sites specifically, those locations specifically, do the market...

I guess do the market sales in those neighborhoods give you confidence that that revenue is going to come in for sure? Yes, keeping in mind, Sam, that the vast majority of that revenue is already, call it, locked in that they are subject to binding purchase agreements with robust deposits in place.

So we feel very confident in the vast majority of that with respect to the units that are under development, but haven't yet been haven't yet been purchased. We're starting to, I mean, I think there was a lull in the market at the end of 2022 and it's starting to pick up now as people are as buyers are starting to reconcile with the realities of the new interest rate paradigm.

So we do feel confident in that number materializing. And what I would add as well, and Jonathan hit this in his comments, is that we're seeing the rates are higher than performed on a per square foot or per unit basis. And Jonathan, I probably sold, I think it was like 86% of the units, but that represents

the mid 90% of the growth of 96% of the growth profit being locked in that Delta obviously is the Fact that we've been selling at a higher rate per square foot than the original performance.

Okay, great. Last one for me. Just on the leasing discussions, are you seeing it take any longer to get tenants to sign on the dotted line or any change in the leases discussions over the last few months that you've seen? I'm going to hand that one over to Oliver Harrison.

in general. Good retail, like the kind that RioCan owns, is in short supply right now, Sam, and I think there's no better sound bite than our Bed Bath situation, where we didn't even have an opportunity, really, to deal with them because they're in such high demand.

Yeah, that's a great outcome and congratulations there. Before signing off, I'll just say that I walked the well on Monday and it looks fantastic, so congratulations.

Thanks so much, Sam. I always appreciate your views on the well. I know that you've been paying close attention to it and we're as excited, or I'd have to say more excited than you are for that one to be completed.

As a reminder, to ask any further questions, please press star 1 on your telephone to be buttoned up.

We now turn to Lorne Kalmar with stage trial and your line is open.

Thanks. Good morning and congrats on a nice start to 2023. Good morning. Just on the leasing spreads, nice little jump from 4Q. Just wondering, was there some nuances to that number or is that sort of the new normal going forward? I think the leasing spreads are pretty volatile metric because like they're

single digits and based on market conditions, we fully intend to adhere to that objective. So sometimes you're gonna see things like this, you know, above 12% combined and sometimes you might see single digits, but we think that the run rate, Lauren, is in that high single digits and we're very confident behind that guidance. John , any further?

You will see you know some positive bumpiness over time where we're taking out some of these deals Which will be lower than market rents and sometimes at points that you know more fully net offerings So we're not going to change our guidance, but we will see a bunch of that over the next year or two

provider occupancy you know is maintained at 98% which we expect it to. Okay so it'd be fair to say kind of 98% is sort of like fully stabilized occupancy it'd be kind of tough to push it anywhere beyond that and they're materially higher I guess.

Yeah, from a retail perspective, Lauren, I would say that that is to us stabilized from an office perspective. I mean, our headline occupancy overall is lower than that 98%. So there's definitely, let's call it opportunity on the office segment.

there's definitely a lot of opportunity in the office segment. On development spend, you guys maintain the guidance. I'm just wondering if you were thinking of starting any new development of significance this year.

Well, we've got a lot on the go in the ground and that's what the guidance for this year speaks to. In terms of green lighting, it's a tricky environment. Interest rates have obviously, I would say, distorted performance a little bit.

And what we're going to do is, as always, take a disciplined approach to assessing each of these opportunities. And we have IRR hurdles. And should some new opportunities meet or exceed those hurdles, we're going to consider them but we also have to consider them in the context of some other uses of capital, such as being paid on debt.

doing, you know, acquisitions in some cases which have higher outcomes or better outcomes and more immediate outcomes. So it's a bit of a wishy-washy answer to your question, but the bottom line is we're going to assess these one at a time and we're going to take into consideration a number of factors that will lend to the conclusion of whether we green light or not.

It's a bit more of a risky environment to commence developments with this kind of backdrop. So it's probably not going to be as aggressive as if we had this conversation six months ago or a year ago. But as we've already said, the beauty of RioCan is that should we decide to pause on green lighting any of our construction, we have very capable, very high functioning shopping centers.

that are producing income. So we're not necessarily losing out by delaying any development starts. The other thing that happens, Lauren, as you know, is it doesn't take a lot of capital to invest in advancing the ball on the pipeline. So moving as many of these projects to shovel ready, getting voting.

dealing with you know cleaning up any kind of constraints on the projects and so our team continues to advance the ball in that which does add value without you know putting a the kind of burden that you have in the balance sheet when you start getting into construction. Construction costs have been playing for a while. The other thing you've seen though, and you know you guys many people have this call.

Yeah, sure. It's an asset that we acquired right on the island of Montreal. Very good demographics, good area, close to transit, close to a very strong community. And we feel it fits very well within the Ryokan living constructs of what we want to provide to our constituents.

It's not a very large transaction, but it has very good economic attributes to it, namely we see good rental growth, particularly once we take over the management of it, and we also see a very favorable debt, a very favorable existing debt scenario there where we inherited from it, versus all forward-market losses.

tenured debt that's at a very favorable rate. So between the two of those elements we feel that this will have a very good IRR outcome for us and as I said in our five-year plan that we put out in our investor day we were always looking to augment our development program with we call them singles and doubles.

we're quite pleased with that. Okay, and are the 124 units, are they stabilized or still in lease out? They are stabilized. The majority of them are stabilized. So yeah.

Okay, and are the 124 units, are they stabilized or still in lease out? They are stabilized. The majority are stabilized. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, perfect. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Our next question comes from Panekir with RBC Capital Markets. Your line is open.

Thank you. Our next question comes from panic here with RBC capital markets. Your line is open. Hey, bye.

Thanks, good morning. Morning. Just in terms of the additional retail leasing that was done at the well, can you provide maybe just some color on some of the new tenants and as well thoughts on leasing up the balance? Yeah, sure. So I'm going to hand that over to Oliver.

And the second question in terms of continued momentum, I mean we're basically, if we conclude the 6% of deals that are actively under negotiation, we're essentially where we wanna be for brand opening, at which point we will then open up the site, even though the site is technically is already open.

and be able to maximize full value on the space that is remaining. So I think we made the comment a while back that we were taking reservations on space. I think we're basically at a point now at 90, close to 90% that we will be taking reservations until we open up en masse in the fourth quarter of the year.

And we're very confident that there will be a significant amount of demand for the limited amount of space that remains. Yeah, and I think that the opening up physically of the site creates a lot of momentum there. I think just the enthusiasm that tenants are now or prospective tenants have towards the prospects has increased dramatically when they can actually walk the site, see the space, see the space.

completion.

I guess, I get scared as soon as I buy at some point in 2024. This should be, I guess, fully-media skin and in producing on the retail fund.

Yeah, yeah, that's right. I think it will be, as Oliver said, 80% opened in red paint by our official grant opening. It'll open in phases over the next few quarters and then the official grant opening. So by the end of the year, the commercial NOI will be north of 90%.

stabilized. So that when we get it in 2024, that's when you get the first full year of effectively run rate, wealth, income from the commercial side. The residential side

So, when we get it in 2024, that's when you get the first full year of effectively run rate, wealth, income from the commercial side. The residential side will ramp up over the course of the back half of this year and into 2024.

Right, okay. And then just on the one that you leased and I guess the two remaining that are in discussions, what can you share in terms of the types of tenants that are in discussions there or at least have already leased the space?

Predictable. They're very much like strong existing incumbent users within the Canadian retail landscape. They covered that sort of 20000 square foot box and they won't be of a surprise to you when we can announce them.

But great young, last one. Yeah.

Okay, just lastly, sorry, yeah, just lastly on the ERP related costs that you've heard in the quarter, can you provide maybe just some color around that? And also just how much further spending do you anticipate over the year?

Sure, so an ERP system is like the implementation of a new accounting system, which you typically have to do in any company every 10 years or so. And so you put this new system in, it'll probably cost, typically cost between kind of 10 and 15 million dollars. And so you put this new system in, it'll probably cost, typically cost, 15 million dollars.

and you have the benefit of that for the next 10 years. So we'll see a bit more spending there. It is an interesting kind of point around there was a change in IFRS accounting that happened last year, where these costs used to be capitalized and amortized in the P&L.

over the course of the life of the asset, which is still the economic reality of the situation. And so from an FFO perspective, we actually adjust that out and we'll amortize that into G&A over the course of the next 10 years. The other reason why it's important to address it that way from an FFO perspective...

is comparability with our US peers. US GAAP did not make the same change that IFRS made. So when we talk to US investors and US rating agencies, et cetera, it's important to have that comparability. So economic reality and comparability make us do the accounting the way we've done it. Yeah, thanks for that color, that help.

just any color you can shed on that.

I think that's a fair characterization. We're really, I mean, we're really focused on our balance sheet more than anything. And so if there's opportunity and access funds from dispositions at this point, our favorable use would be to pay down debt or to recycle through our existing development program or to...

is in the next few quarters. Yeah, I think the other thing probably that's sort of different between when we did our past NCIB is with the cost of debt where it is, the benefit of NCIB is not as high as it's frankly that it used to be. You just don't have as big of a gap between implied cap rates and stock and your cost of debt. So it's, you know, in terms of balance sheet, but then also from an FFO for your perspective.

There's a good advantage actually utilizing capital to pay down debt. Thanks very much. I will turn it back. Thanks, Pami. Our final question comes from Tal Willy with National Bank. Your line is open.Rich, do you have the answer?

a good advantage actually utilizing capital to pay down debt. Thanks very much. I will turn it back. Thanks, Pami. Our final question comes from Tal Willy with National Bank. Your line is open. Hi, good morning.

Morning. Last thing here in Toronto, the city council. Effectively, you know, it's going to allow for building of multiplexes across areas zone for single family rental. I'm just wondering. What if what if any knock on effects there might be for land pricing for residential projects as a result of some of these.

Zoning type changes. I mean, at this point, we don't really assess it to be any meaningful. I would have any meaningful impact.

Okay, that's fair. And then just on Bill 23, it's still early days, but have you seen sort of any increased motion among sort of the different regulatory bodies that were targeted under this Act?

is not changing their positions, so municipalities are going to have to adjust, but I wouldn't say we've seen a marked increase in municipalities' willingness and speed to approve projects.

Okay, and then, you know, when you look at your pipeline on the residential side, you've got a fair number of condo projects. Obviously, you know, a lot of the major cities in Canada are short apartments. What are the things that you think need to change right now for you to get comfortable to be positioned at green light?

our favors. One, there is a heightened rental environment, which of course makes the performa a little bit more acceptable for us and our unit holders. And two, to your point, like time, the time that it takes and the cost of these municipal levies is...

It's very harsh and hopefully Bill 23 and other such measures will bring those in a little bit and make these more viable. So listen, we as a distributor of recurring income very much favor.

the model of building apartment buildings, but like it really it is difficult in this environment with interest rates going the way they are. CMHC is doing what they can to utilize programs like the RCFI program, which we disclosed the utilization of for one of our projects in the eastern part of downtown Toronto. If they have the ability to utilize those in a more dramatic fashion, that would really help us.

And then of course, you know, some of the things that we've been talking about for a while, the alleviation or some deferral mechanism for HST on apartment buildings would be a really good, I think a very good impetus for allowing a little bit more building. So I think there's a few different factors that go into us and developers like us.

that's in that regard. But we can use some help for sure from various governments, banks, etc. I think it comes down to tell us, as we keep saying to people, you've got short term macro volatility, then you've got long term macro demographic trends. But long term trends for this aspect class are a huge deal, and so there's tactical commutes that we do in the short term.

to manage the balance sheet, et cetera. Maybe we do that, but the long-term outlook is very, very strong.

And also that's a ton of discussion in the industry at large about how to try to make projects work and how to solve the housing crisis with increased rentals, purposeful rentals applied. There's tons of discussions with the province. There's an active or more receptive discussion that I believe occurring in the federal level now. So I'm remain hopeful that all levels of the government can align on trying to intensify the asset class.

So organizations like ours can remain committed to building it. We are. Okay. And then just on the balance sheet, you know, you've been able to sort of extend your way to the average term, you know, from the death of the pandemic to now, I think it's about four years at this point.

Just given the shape of the curve and maybe your own internal views on interest rates like

Are you looking to extend her right now? Are you looking to sort of keep things where they are in case rates maybe start to pull back? Like what's your sort of thought about how to start to the balance sheet for the next five years kind of thing? Yeah, so let me take a five year view. Our objectives are to extend the latter. I mean, that's important for us and that's an objective that we have.

In the short term, there's just been, as you know, the tremendous amount of volatility. Both on the underlying, you know, back of Canada rate, then also with spread. To give you an example, we issued our last piece of debt at GOC plus 200. Actually traded it in by basis points after that. And then this US banking crisis, US banking issue came along.

I struggle to call it a crisis, but I'll pay you an again. And it spreads blew out in the second years on those same bonds, you know, by 50, 60 faces points. And it's just that it come back in, you know, about athletes. So, you know, there's just been a lot of volatility that in the punctured debt market that we're trying to manage, which we're partially dealing with hedges.

Whereas we've seen a lot of stability in the secure debt, it's a shared mortgage market, where that gap between secured and unsecured at an arrow, and now...

you know, has blinded back at a little bit. So a long way to say that when you start talking about a five year objective in longer term, absolutely extend the term. And that is one of our core objectives. In the short term, it's managing the best of the context of what is quite large amounts of volatility.

both within types of debt and across different types of debt. Okay, and then just lastly, this is your second apartment purchase in Montreal. Is it part of a bigger strategy there to build a significant residential operation in Montreal?

We just want a balanced approach to how we are not really developing any apartments in Montreal, which distinguishes it from Toronto, Ottawa, Calgary, Vancouver. And so it is a bit of a unique and in some cases, difficult environment to build.

So I wouldn't say that it is a strategy that is different than what we've already proposed, which is just, again, a balanced approach throughout the back-top markets. We're just going to do it a little bit differently in material by buying instead of building.

Thanks very much, gentlemen.

Thanks very much, gentlemen. Thanks.

I'm showing no further questions at this time. I'd now like to turn the conference back to President and CEO Jonathan Gitlin.

Well, thanks everyone for joining our conference call today. I know it's a very busy earnings day for you all, for the analyst community and for anyone else absorbing the information. So we appreciate you spending the time with us and we'll look forward to connecting again in the near future. Thanks everyone.

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