Q3 2024 Old Republic International Corp Earnings Call
Aadra: Good afternoon, my name is Aadra and I will be your conference operator today. At this time I would like to welcome everyone to the Old Republic International 3rd Quarter, 2024 earnings conference call. Today's conference is being recorded.
Aadra: All lines have been placed on mute to prevent any background noise after the speakers' remarks. There will be a question and answer session. If you would like to ask a question during this time simply press the star key, followed by the number one on your telephone keypad. If you would like to withdraw your questions, press star one again.
Speaker Change: At this time, I would like to turn a conference over to Joe Calabrese with FRB. Please go ahead.
Joe Calabrese: Thank you. Good afternoon everyone. And thank you for joining us for the over-public conference call at the Scott's third quarter, 24-4 results.
Speaker Change: This morning, we distributed a copy to press release and posted a separate financial supplement. Both of the documents are available on OREPublicSwebSight at www.OREPublic.com.
Speaker Change: Please be advised to this call, may involve forward-looking statements as discussed in the press release and financial supplement dated October 24, 2024.
Speaker Change: Risk associated with these statements can be found in the company's latest SEC Files.
Speaker Change: This afternoon's conference call will be led by Craig Smiddy, President and CEO of O'Re Public International Corporation and several other senior executive members as planned for this meeting.
Speaker Change: At this time I'd like to turn the call over, Craig Smiddy. Please go ahead sir.
Craig Smiddy: Alright, thanks, Joe. Well, good afternoon, everyone and welcome again to Old Republic's third quarter.
Craig Smiddy: 2024 earnings call.
Craig Smiddy: with me today are Frank Sodaro, CFO of ORI and Carolyn Monroe, President and CEO of our title insurance group.
Craig Smiddy: So during the third quarter we produced.
Craig Smiddy: 229 million have consolidated pre-tats operating income, which is down from 251 million in 23. In our consolidated combined ratio was 95 compared to 92 last year.
Craig Smiddy: General Insurance had strong underwriting results, which continued through the third quarter, producing 197 million of pre-tax operating income. And that was down from a 216 million last year.
Craig Smiddy: The General Insurance Combined Ratio was at 94 in the quarter compared to 89 last year.
Craig Smiddy: And this mostly reflects the anticipated lower level of favorable prior year loss reserve development when compared to the historically high level of favorable development we experienced in 2023.
Speaker Change: Hi, Morgan Gentrist Rape, Senate, continuing type real estate market, continue to constrict our title insurance business. Although it does feel like we're at the beginning of a transition in the real estate market, which we'll talk about in a little bit more detail.
Speaker Change: and despite the headwind, Title Insurance produced 40 million of pre-tax operating income in the quarter and almost 90 million so far this year.
Speaker Change: The title insurance combined ratio was 96.7 in the quarter and that's unchanged from the quarter in 23.
Speaker Change: So our Conservatives.
Speaker Change: Reserving practices continue to produce favorable prior year loss reserve development in both general insurance and tidal insurance.
Speaker Change: So, as expected, not to the same historically high level, we saw in general insurance the last couple of years.
Speaker Change: In 2024, we remain on track to produce our tenth consecutive year of favorable loss reserve development.
Speaker Change: Our balance sheet remains strong as we returned capital to shareholders through both dividends and share repurchases during the quarter.
Speaker Change: We continue to manage for the long run investing in our new general insurance, especially underwriting subsidiaries, as well as investing in technology in both general insurance and title insurance.
Speaker Change: So with those opening remarks, I will now turn it over to Frank and then Frankle turned things back to me to cover General Insurance And that'll be followed by Carolyn, who will discuss title insurance
Speaker Change: and then we'll open up to the usual Q&A discussion.
Speaker Change: So Frank.
Frank Sodaro: Thank you, Craig and good afternoon everyone. This morning we reported net operating income of 183 million for the third quarter compared to 200 million last year.
Frank Sodaro: On a per-share basis, Net Operating and Cumb was relatively flat at 71 cents compared to 72 cents last year.
Frank Sodaro: [inaudible]
Frank Sodaro: Our average reinvestment rate on corporate bonds was 4.5% while the comparable both yield on corporate bonds disposed of was 3.1%.
Frank Sodaro: The total bond portfolio book yield now stands at 4.3%. Compared to 3.75% at the end of the third quarter last year, and 4% at the end of last year.
Frank Sodaro: Our investment portfolio, composition and mix remained largely unchanged from last quarter.
Frank Sodaro: Turning lost reserves, both the general and title insurance groups recognized favorable development in the quarter, leading to a benefit of 1.3% of points to the consolidated lost ratio.
Frank Sodaro: which is slightly lower than the 2% we strive for.
Frank Sodaro: I'll give you some line of business color about the reserve development coming from the general insurance group in the quarter.
Frank Sodaro: Commercial Auto continued to have strong favorable development coming predominantly from our trucking coverages.
Frank Sodaro: Workers' camp also had a high level of favorable development, although significantly lower by comparisons at the same quarter last year.
Frank Sodaro: General liability had pluses and minuses across the system and ended with some unfavorable development.
Frank Sodaro: but at a lower level than last year.
Frank Sodaro: Additionally, we recorded unfavorable development of around 25 million within financial indemnity, most of which relates to our transactional risks line of coverage.
Frank Sodaro: We saw development across several claims in this coverage which represents a small portion of the total financial and themnity book.
Frank Sodaro: And finally, we had a larger amount of favorable development than usual in our property lines.
Frank Sodaro: We ended the quarter with Book Value per share of $25.71 which includes the of dividends equates to an increase of 13.7% since year end and that resulted primarily from our strong operating earnings and increased investment valuations.
Frank Sodaro: In the quarter we paid about 67 million of dividends and repurchased $165 million worth of our shares.
Frank Sodaro: Since the end of the quarter, we repurchased another $23 million worth of our shares, leading us with about $385 million remaining in our current repurchased program.
Frank Sodaro: An alternative call back over to Craig for a discussion of general insurance.
Craig Smiddy: Alright, Frank, thanks.
Craig Smiddy: So, General Insurance, net written premiums were up 16% in the quarter with strong renewal retention, rating creases on most lines of coverage.
Craig Smiddy: New Business Growth and increasing Craig M. Production in our new specialty underwriting subsidiaries. Whereas we're a minor, most of that business is written on ENS.
Craig Smiddy: Papal, our ENS premiums were up 21% in the quarter.
Craig Smiddy: and are running at 585 million on a trailing 12-month basis.
Craig Smiddy: As I mentioned in my opening remarks in the third quarter, General Insurance pre-tax operating income was $197 million.
Craig Smiddy: and the combined ratio was 94. While on a year-to-date basis pre-tax operating income is at 620 million and the combined ratio.
Craig Smiddy: is at 92.3, which is exactly in the middle of the target range we give between 90 and 95.
Craig Smiddy: So this demonstrates that we continue to grow at a strong clip at a very profitable level.
Craig Smiddy: The loss ratio for the quarter was 65.2, which includes 1.7 points.
Craig Smiddy: of favorable prior year loss reserve development and that compares to 60.4.
Craig Smiddy: Last year, which included 61 points of favorable development.
Craig Smiddy: Absent the impact of favorable reserve development. The accident in your law's ratio was relatively stable. As compared to last year, I'm both a quarterly and year-to-day basis.
Craig Smiddy: The expense ratio held relatively steady at 28.8 compared to 28.6.
Craig Smiddy: Last year and is running at 28.2 for the year, which again is right in line with our expectations.
Craig Smiddy: Now turning to property catastrophic losses that impacted the industry in the third and fourth quarters.
Craig Smiddy: But first let me express that our thought still remained with those that are recovering in the disaster areas, which includes about a thousand of our associates.
Craig Smiddy: As most of you on the call now, we write left, catastrophic expose business and most of our peers.
Craig Smiddy: So with that said, we expect ultimate losses for halene to be between $8 million and $10 million, and ultimate losses for Milton to be between $18 million and $23 million.
Speaker Change: As Frank mentioned, we experienced unfavorable prior year loss reserve development in the financial and end of the line of coverage.
Speaker Change: Stemming primarily from transactional risks written in our professional liability unit, which writes mostly D&O and E&O and other management liability covers.
Speaker Change: The unfavorable development drove the high 80-3% lost ratio that you can all see in the financial supplement for the financial indemnity line of coverage.
Speaker Change: Now, providing you with some more details on commercial auto and workers compensation to our largest lines.
Speaker Change: Commercial Lotto Net Premium's written group 14% in the quarter while the Law Street Show came in at 67.1.
Speaker Change: compared to 66.3 last year due to slightly lower levels of favorable prior year loss reserve development, although as Frank said, still strong, and rating creases were approximately 10%.
Speaker Change: and that remains commensurate with the lost friends that we observe in that line.
Speaker Change: Work is compensation that premiums written held relatively stuttered steady quarter to quarter, while the loss ratio came in at 58.8 compared to 33.2 last year due to much lower levels.
Speaker Change: of a favorable prior year loss reserve development this year. When compared to the historically high levels of favorable development, we experienced this quarter in 2023.
Speaker Change: So, life frequency trend continues to decline.
Speaker Change: and Laugh Severity Trend remains relatively stable.
Speaker Change: So, given higher wage trend within the payroll, which is our rating base, the declining loss frequency trend, the stable severity trend in our rate decreases of approximately 4% on this line. We continue to remain.
Speaker Change: of the belief that our rate levels remain adequate for workers compensation.
Speaker Change: Well, we expect solid growth and profitability in general insurance to continue for the remainder of 24 reflecting the success of our specialty strategy, our operational excellence initiatives and our new specialty underwriting subsidiaries.
Speaker Change: So, with that said for General Insurance, I will now turn the discussion over to Carolyn to report on title insurance. Carolyn?
Speaker Change: The End
Speaker Change: and it does look like Carolyn has disconnected if we could just wait one moment while you're connect.
Speaker Change: Okay.
Speaker Change: [inaudible]
Speaker Change: Area's impacted by
Speaker Change: the recent catastrophes, so hopefully.
Speaker Change: will be able to get her back on.
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Speaker Change: So that we don't have.
Speaker Change: Soundtime for all of those listening in.
Speaker Change: Uh...
Speaker Change: Perhaps I can...
Speaker Change: and a wrap. We got reconnected. I'm sorry. I was ready to pivot and call an audible here. We'll hand it to you.
Speaker Change: Alright, thank you, sorry about that. The title group reported premium in T-revenue for the quarter of 799 million. This represents an increase of nearly 4% from third quarter last year.
Speaker Change: Our directly produced premium in these represented 22% of revenue versus 21% in the third quarter of 2023.
Speaker Change: and our fees were up 9% from prior year while agency produced premiums were up 2%.
Speaker Change: Our commercial premiums decrease 6% and represent approximately 20% of our net premiums for the quarter.
Speaker Change: While commercial premiums decreased slightly, we are seeing some positive signs in our direct operations. Commercial direct new title orders were up 11% compared to 3rd quarter 2023.
Speaker Change: Our pre-tax operating income of 40 million was an increase of 7% over prior year or third quarter. In our expense ratio of 94% and our combined ratio of 96.7% are consistent with third quarter 2023.
Speaker Change: Since the end of 2022, interest rates have been the headline story in our market. While many homeowners have already have low interest rates, home buyers that purchase during recent years, rating creases are now seen in opportunity to lower their rates.
Speaker Change: We are also seeing homeowners taking advantage of the equity in their homes to remodel or for other cash needs. These two activities are pushing up refinance activity.
Speaker Change: The recent Fed rate increase is significant because it signals a long-awaited shift in monetary policy to spur economic growth.
Speaker Change: While housing affordability and lack of residential housing inventory still represent headwinds for our industry. The shift in said policy is a very positive sign for our industry.
Speaker Change: In our direct operations, we have seen an increase in our open orders each quarter this year. Overall, our third quarter new open residential title orders in our direct locations were up 26% compared to the third quarter of 2023.
Speaker Change: As we start the final quarter of this year, we continue to focus on modernization efforts and our direct operations and bringing value and servicing our agents is a prepare for an increase in business as the markets recover.
Speaker Change: will continue to emphasize that investing in technology is a critical priority.
Speaker Change: While we are pleased with our third quarter results and activities, we remain mindful that the market is still recovering from the downturn, and we will remain focused on managing for the long run. Thank you, Craig.
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Speaker Change: Susan, it feels like we're at the beginning of a transition in the real estate market.
Speaker Change: Overall, our year-to-date results are driving positive performance.
Speaker Change: in our earnings per share growth, our operating return on equity, and our book value growth, and these results have enabled us to return a record amount of capital to share holders this year.
Speaker Change: So that concludes our prepared remarks and we'll now open up the discussion to Q&A where either I'll answer your question or I'll ask Frank or Carolyn to help me out and respond.
Speaker Change: We'll open it up to Q&A. Thank you. We will now begin the question and answer session. If you have dialed in, would like to ask a question. Please press star 1 on your telephone keypad to raise your hand. Join the Q. If you would like to withdraw your question, simply press star 1 again.
Speaker Change: We'll take our first question from Gregory Peters at Raymond James.
Gregory Peters: Good afternoon everyone. So the last couple of comments I missed him.
Gregory Peters: and I must have also a forward connection here.
Gregory Peters: and I did.
Gregory Peters: mentioned I'd cop back in where you're talking about sharing purchase activities. So can we go back to the Capital Management Initiative? What the expectations are for sharing purchase for the balance of the year? And how do you think about it for 25?
Gregory Peters: Sure, so maybe I'll break this and put it on. Don't know exactly what you might have missed.
Speaker Change: and you're down in that same area as Carolyn, but perhaps Frank could just recap on where we were at during the quarter and since the end of the quarter with our share of repurchases.
Frank Sodaro: Yeah, so Sherry purchases in the quarter was about 165 million since the end of the quarter we did about another 23 million. That's taking the full year of the 700.
Frank Sodaro: 68 million of repurchases, which is right at about a billion return, which include since the end of the quarter and our dividends. The other thing I did was we have 385 million remaining on our current authorization.
Frank Sodaro: Greg, I would just speak to that and say that we have...
Frank Sodaro: Always been mindful of valuation when we're repurchasing.
Frank Sodaro: are a piece of purchases.
Frank Sodaro: does depends on what are they and...
Gregory Peters: It looks like we could continue to repurchase through the end of the year and that could possibly exhaust the remaining amount of 38385 million that Frank spoke to you.
Gregory Peters: Or we, you know, that might go into the first quarter of next year as we continue down the, the repurchase path.
Speaker Change: Thank you for clarifying that. The second question in your comments, Craig, you spoke about, I think he said EMS was up 21%.
Speaker Change: Is that the four businesses, the new ventures you've been talking about, where the premiums up, and you said, I think you said the run rates run.
Speaker Change: 385 is that right or in my 588 maybe excuse me I got two different numbers on here on that
Speaker Change: It can be that way.
Speaker Change: and can you just give us an update on how you're looking at those businesses? Because I think that's a growth engine as we think out over a multi-year period.
Speaker Change: Sure, yeah, I'd be happy to be so just the level set. Again, Old Republic Union is our non-admitted surplus-line company and all of our 17.
Speaker Change: subsidiaries within the general insurance group had access to that paper. So there are several of our subsidiary companies that...
Speaker Change: Do use that paper on some of their business, however, a good amount of that growth that we're seeing.
Speaker Change: is coming from a couple of our newer subsidiaries. Primarily our older public.
Speaker Change: Kiera?
Speaker Change: Operation, and I know as we spoke about when we set that up a few years ago, we expected that to grow, and it's grown in line with our expectations, and we think that it'll continue at a pretty good clip for the next couple of years, at least.
Speaker Change: and then we also have older republics in one marine that we also set up.
Speaker Change: just prior to that and that's helping to produce.
Speaker Change: Premium as well, and then to a lesser extent are...
Speaker Change: New Over Public Lawyers Professional and our new A&A Over Public A&H. But again, those are two, a lesser extent.
Speaker Change: So it is, as I say, primarily our over-public E&F operation that's driving a lot of that growth within the E&F space.
Speaker Change: Fair enough. I guess the final question just on the Reserve Development.
Speaker Change: But don't recall Frank ever hearing a 2% favorable reserve development target for the company.
Speaker Change: So that was a new piece of information.
Speaker Change: The other thing is I think you mentioned it twice in the call which is this
Speaker Change: is a erosion of this as we think about, you know, looking into the quarters of HUD.
Speaker Change: Yeah, so, uh, Craig, let me first talk about that.
Craig Smiddy: 2% I know in the past I've said that we hope to err on the side of producing favorable development as opposed to
Craig Smiddy: Um...
Craig Smiddy: going between favorable and unfavorable development and as such, you know, we hope.
Craig Smiddy: The Earth.
Craig Smiddy: Two points of favorable development over time. So that remains our target might be too strong of a word, but we are conservative, preserving practices.
Craig Smiddy: That on your first party of your question with respect to
Craig Smiddy: the transactional risk.
Craig Smiddy: Business
Speaker Change: as Frank said it's a small part of our professional business.
Craig Smiddy: and it is currently...
Craig Smiddy: Running just to give you some relativity at, we've been reducing our writings in that area this year. So, here today we're about 14 million of premium in that area. And it's a professional line that is...
Craig Smiddy: Primarily is in our professional.
Craig Smiddy: Liability Unit, and as I stated in my comments, that unit really is more of our D&O and E&O management liability group. So it's a very small.
Craig Smiddy: Peace of our overall financial indemnity line and...
Craig Smiddy: As I know in other quarters, we're a certain line of coverage, we're either just the accident your loss ratio up or we put up some additional reserve. You know, when we see something come through, we in a way of claims and in this case.
Craig Smiddy: You know, we'll have to see where things go, but that's our best.
Craig Smiddy: View of things right now on that business and again we've taken a conservative approach as we always do when we see something coming through.
Craig Smiddy: We rarely will take things down if it's favorable, but if it's unfavorable, we immediately react and try to react in a conservative way.
Speaker Change: Thank you very much for the answers.
Speaker Change: Thanks, Craig.
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Speaker Change: and as a reminder, if you would like to ask a question, please press star one on your telephone keypad.
Speaker Change: We'll move next to Carol Schermill at Citizens JMP.
Speaker Change: Hi, I'm Carl Young from Matthews on the Vaila Blue right now. But my main question is regarding commercial auto and Craig, you had mentioned in the earlier that commercial auto, you're going to get the 10% rate.
Speaker Change: which is in line with the Lawscoast trend. But my question is really, are you seeing any of this frequency and severity that is being seen in the industry? And if not, is your book any different from your peers?
Speaker Change: Sure.
Speaker Change: are...
Speaker Change: We believe our book is Jeff Prince from our peers and at least how we approach the business. I think in prior quarters I spoke about.
Speaker Change: How our Reserving Practices are different, our claims.
Speaker Change: Practices are different and very specialized.
Speaker Change: and our distribution model, again, is very different.
Speaker Change: However, with respect to frequency and severity,
Speaker Change: No, it's very hard to isolate yourself from...
Speaker Change: What the industry sees, whether that's workers' compensation or whether it's auto, yesterday or second, it's just had a meeting.
Speaker Change: with the folks from NCCI for instance on Workers' Cop.
Speaker Change: and what they're observing in the way of frequency and severity is pretty much lines up with what we're seeing in the way of frequency and severity. So I would say the same goes for auto, very difficult to immune yourself from
Speaker Change: The factors of frequency and severity that are driven by
Speaker Change: How many miles are being driven, traffic congestion on the roads when it comes to frequency and on severity. We've talked about social inflation, jury verdict.
Speaker Change: and the like are going to drive severity on that and um
Speaker Change: Therefore, I think we're seeing frequency and severity on auto is probably very consistent with what the industry is saying. I think the difference there too of us from industry.
Speaker Change: Why we have the favorable...
Speaker Change: Lots Reserve Development that we have on Commercial Auto.
Speaker Change: is again because of our reserving practices, both on a case reserving.
Speaker Change: Faces on an IVNR, reserving faces are much more conservative.
Speaker Change: and when we saw back in 2019 and 2018 when we saw the changes come through on the severity. We immediately reacted, we improved our pricing analytics.
Speaker Change: and we refined our race by wings.
Speaker Change: and also started implementing rating creases to get us back to where we need and if you look back to over the last...
Speaker Change: Five years, we have on average.
Speaker Change: obtained a 10% rate increase back in 19. It was actually about a 17% rate increase when we initially started to observe things.
Speaker Change: So you compound that all the way through and it helps explain why we've been able to maintain the results we have.
Speaker Change: and we were, I think it's safe to say much sooner to react and perfect our pricing and our case reserving much sooner than many in the industry that are putting up on favorable development.
Speaker Change: Thank you, that's very helpful. And then just a short follow up regarding the buybacks and the overall capital management. You guys said earlier that you're open to maybe...
Speaker Change: using all of your buy-back for this year or maybe into next year. Is there something that you're looking at? Are you looking to use the capital more for premium growth?
Speaker Change: Well, let me just step back and give you perhaps a broader response than that and that is, as I vote.
Speaker Change: indicated in several quarters when the issue of
Speaker Change: Capital Management comes up. I remind everyone that every quarter we review our Capital Management position with our board.
Speaker Change: and we make a recommendation on ways to return excess capital if we deem there to be excess capital. The first preference for capital is to grow the business.
Speaker Change: Bye!
Speaker Change: You know, we have been so fortunate to produce the results we have that are retained earnings as much capital as we've returned over the last.
Speaker Change: Several years are retained earnings keep filling that bucket back up and that keeps happening.
Speaker Change: So as we get in the next year, I would suspect that we will again be in that position where retained earnings keeps filling up that capital bucket and unless there's...
Speaker Change: and Opportunity for an M&A transaction or an Opportunity.
Speaker Change: Continue to make stronger investments in new businesses.
Speaker Change: Then we will be in that capital to be in access. We'll again have a conversation with our board and talk about the best ways to return that whether that be through a sharing purchase or through a special dividend.
Speaker Change: Great, I understood, thank you very much.
Speaker Change: Thank you.
Speaker Change: and we'll take a follow-up from Craig repeaters at Raymond James.
Speaker Change: Hey, so in your press release you've called out, um...
Craig Smiddy: You called out warranty as being more pricing, being competitive and pulling back yet. If I look at that segment's results.
Craig Smiddy: and that ring premium was up substantially in the quarter and up for the year. So maybe you can help.
Craig Smiddy: Walker's true, the moving pieces inside that segment.
Speaker Change: Yeah, so I'll talk to it a little bit, Craig. I can tell you that we did right.
Speaker Change: and New.
Speaker Change: Programmed within our home and auto warranty segment that was auto warranty. That business has been very profitable for us.
Speaker Change: has ran at decent loss ratios. So we expect to continue to grow at a pretty decent flip of premium on our auto warranty.
Speaker Change: and as we expect.
Speaker Change: I thought you said something in your question about something in the release that indicated perhaps something different than that, if you could just clarify.
Speaker Change: If I look at the press release, it's largely a reflecting market conditions or deglimes and public DNA transactual risk encourages into a lesser extent home warranty.
Speaker Change: Okay, yeah, so thank you for that clarification. So auto-warranty is driving that line of coverage category of home and auto-warranty.
Speaker Change: as I just explained. And on home warranty, we're producing that business mostly through real estate agents.
Speaker Change: and it's very dependent as our title insurance businesses and sales transactions in the real estate market for homes.
Speaker Change: So in a whole warranty segment.
Speaker Change: We've actually seen some declines there because of just where we're at in the real estate cycle.
Speaker Change: and again we just as entitled we're hopefully.
Speaker Change: Feeling the real estate market starting the turn. But those are the two moving pieces. One out, one down. Thank you. Auto warranty up, home warranty down a bit.
Speaker Change: I just wanted to pivot, Carolyn. I know you guys, you know, here we are at the end of October. You're starting to prepare budgets for next year.
Speaker Change: I'm not sure what to make of the outlook for both new and refinancing activities. Maybe you could provide us a snapshot of how you're thinking about it through your crystal ball.
Speaker Change: Churcreg, you know...
Speaker Change: This year, every quarter, we've seen a flight increase in our orders that we track through our direct operations.
Speaker Change: It's a positive sign, but I also think, you know, just based on what we read, we listen to a economist quite a bit.
Speaker Change: It's just so hard to predict what could happen. I don't, if we would be happy if we continue to see the positive increases that we've sent.
Speaker Change: and the same quarter of recorded this year. You know, a lot of...
Speaker Change: People believe that we'll start seeing some recovery later in 2025 and then 2026 should be when it really starts having a larger effect on us.
Speaker Change: But it's just so hard to predict anymore. I wouldn't have thought that when this first started, I would have thought we'd be way ahead of where we are now, but it's just something that's been so unpredictable, almost month to month, in the real estate cycle right now.
Speaker Change: So I guess is a related question. If there's a lot of that uncertainty, I look at the expense ratio.
Speaker Change: Let's just look at the 9 month extension, 95 for I remember.
Speaker Change: You know, several quarters may be a year ago, you're actually target in this period It was a little bit lower. So I just use that sort of as a bogey for the foreseeable future, what you're currently reporting, until conditions improve or do you have another recommendation.
Speaker Change: I would say it's hard to predict, you know.
Speaker Change: A lot of what goes in Clark's Flint Street Show has to do with fees and services that we pay for in producing all these orders.
Speaker Change: Those are expenses that are kind of upfront and it takes a while for those to...
Speaker Change: We need the revenue for these orders to offset our expenses on these. And we've continued while it's been flowed to...
Speaker Change: You know, work to our technology and modernization, and so that that does bring some pressure on our expense ratio.
Speaker Change: Okay, thank you for the follow-up.
Speaker Change: Thank you, everybody.
Speaker Change: and that concludes our Q&A session. I will now turn the conference back over to management for closing remarks.
Speaker Change: Okay, well thank you everyone for your interest and your time and participating with us.
Speaker Change: We wish you all the best this fall and look forward to getting back together with you when we can report on our fourth quarter.
Speaker Change: The final 2024 figures. So again, thanks you very much and have a great day.
Speaker Change: and this concludes today's conference call. Thank you for your participation. You may now just connect.
Speaker Change: The The