Q4 2024 Definity Financial Corp Earnings Call

February 14, 2025

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the definitive financial Corporation fourth quarter 'twenty 'twenty four financial results conference call. At this time all lines are in listen only mode. Following the presentation.

We will conduct a question and answer session is look any time during this call you quiet and you get the assistance. Please press star zero for operator. This call is being recorded on Friday, the body's way at the end of 'twenty 'twenty fives.

I would now like to turn the conference over to Mr. Dennis Westphal, Vice President of Investor Relations. Please go ahead.

Thank you and good morning, everyone. Thanks for joining us on the call today.

Dennis Westfall: Thank you, and good morning, everyone. Thanks for joining us on the call today. A link to our live webcast and background information for the call is posted on our website at definity.com under the Investors tab. As a reminder, the slide presentation contains a disclaimer on forward-looking statements, which also applies to our discussion on the conference call. Joining me on the call today are Rowan Saunders, President and CEO, Philip Mather, EVP and CFO, Paul MacDonald, EVP of Personal Insurance & Digital Channels, and Fabian Richenberger, EVP of Commercial Insurance & Insurance Operations. We'll start with formal remarks from Rowan and Phil, followed by a Q&A session, during which Paul and Fabi will also be available to answer your questions. With that, I will ask Rowan to begin his remarks.

Linked to our live webcast and background information for the call is posted on our website at <unk> Dot com under the investors tab.

As a reminder, a slide presentation contains a disclaimer on forward looking statements, which also applies to our discussion on the conference call.

Speaker Change: Joining me on the call today are rolling Saunders, President and CEO.

Speaker Change: Mother, EVP and CFO.

Arnold: It's Arnold AVP of personal insurance and digital channels, and Fagen, Reichenberger EVP of commercial insurance and insurance operations.

Arnold: I'll start with formal remarks from rone itself, followed by a Q&A session during which Paul aside he will also be available to answer your questions.

Arnold: With that I will ask Ron to begin his remarks.

Rowan Saunders: Thanks, Dennis, and good morning, everyone. We reported Q4 results last night that capped off a strong performance for 2024. In a year where the industry faced historic levels of losses from catastrophes, the resilience of our people and business model enabled Definity to deliver on its commitment to be there for our customers while generating robust results for shareholders. We reported record full-year operating earnings per share of CAD 2.66, an increase of nearly 25% over 2023. We again met or exceeded all financial targets for 2024, with top line growth of 11.1%, a full year combined ratio of 94.5%, and an operating ROE of 10.6%.

Ron: Thanks, Dennis good morning, everyone.

Ron: We reported fourth quarter results last night that capped off a strong performance for 2024.

Ron: In a year, where the industry faced historic levels of losses from catastrophes.

Ron: Zillionths about people and business model enabled the ability to deliver on its commitment to be there for our customers, while generating robust results for shareholders.

Ron: We reported record full year operating earnings per share of $2.66, an increase of nearly 25% over 2023.

Ron: We again met or exceeded all financial targets for 2024.

Ron: Top line growth of 11, 1%.

Ron: Full year combined ratio of 94, 5%.

Ron: And then operating ROE.

Ron: 10, 6%.

Rowan Saunders: The strong operating performance, coupled with the return of restricted cash of CAD 150 million, drove a 17.6% increase in book value per share in 2024. Turning to slide 6. It's now been just over three years since we completed our landmark IPO. In that time, we've been able to grow premiums by CAD 1.2 billion, which moved our market position from 8 to 6, successfully deliver consistent underwriting profits despite challenging conditions, grow book value per share by over 40%, and increase our quarterly dividends per share by 50%. We have also successfully deployed more than CAD 1 billion of capital in that time. Over CAD 800 million of that went into the strategic growth of our broker platform, a platform that now represents the 10th-largest P&C insurance broker in Canada.

Ron: <unk> operating performance, coupled with a return of restricted cash of $150 million drove a 17, 6% increase in book value per share in 2024.

Ron: Turning to slide six.

Ron: Now let me just over three years since we completed our landmark IPO.

Ron: In that time, we've been able to grow premiums by $1 2 billion, which moved our market position from number eight to number six.

Ron: Successful eat deliver consistent underwriting profits despite challenging conditions.

Ron: Book value per share by over 40% and increase our quarterly dividend per share by 50%.

Ron: We have also successfully deployed more than 1 billion of capital in that time.

Ron: Over $800 million of that weighted into the strategic growth about broker platform a platform that now represents the 10th largest P&C insurance broke up in Canada.

Rowan Saunders: Finally, we've distributed CAD 200 million in shareholder dividends since IPO, and that's before our most recent increase of more than 17%. I'm extremely proud of this exceptional track record and look forward with confidence to what we will accomplish together with our employees and broker partners. Turning to Q4 on slide 7. Strong underwriting income, together with growing contributions from our insurance broker platform and net investment income, combined to generate record operating net income of CAD 110.4 million or CAD 0.95 per share. Our Q4 combined ratio of 90.3% reflected the broad-based strength of the business, with particularly strong results in personal property. For the full year, our overall combined ratio was robust at 94.5%, despite record levels of industry cat losses.

Ron: Finally, we distributed $200 billion in shareholder dividends since IPO and that's before the most recent increase of more than 17%.

Ron: I'm extremely proud of this exceptional track record I look forward with confidence to what we will accomplish together with our employees and broker partners.

Ron: Turning to the fourth quarter on slide seven strong underwriting income together with growing contributions from our insurance broker platform and net investment income combined to generate record operating income of $110 $4 million or 95 cents per share.

Ron: Our Q4 combined ratio of 93% reflected the broad based strength of the business with particularly strong results in personal property.

Ron: For the full year, our overall combined ratio was robust at 94, 5% despite record levels of industry cat losses.

Rowan Saunders: From a top-line perspective, we continued to leverage our strong broker proposition and digital platforms to drive solid overall premium growth of 11.1% in 2024, ending the year with premiums approaching CAD 4.5 billion. In Q4, underlying growth of 9% was driven by auto rate and unit count increases, continued rate increases in property, and strong retention and rate achievement in commercial insurance in what remains an attractive market overall. On a reported basis, growth of 7.4% reflected the impact of the exit of Sonnet's Alberta personal auto business, which we classify as an exited line. Given the loss-making nature of Sonnet's Alberta auto book, withdrawing our business there enabled the consolidated Sonnet business to generate a profitable underwriting performance in the quarter. The negative drag on profitability from Sonnet is now behind us.

Ron: From a topline perspective, we continued to leverage our strong broker proposition and digital platforms to drive solid overall premium growth of.

Ron: At 11, 1% in 2024 ending.

Ron: Ending the year with premiums approaching $4 $5 billion.

Ron: In the fourth quarter underlying growth of 9% was driven by order rates and unit count increases continued rate decreases in property and strong retention and rate achievement in commercial insurance and what remains an attractive market overall.

Ron: On a reported basis growth of seven 4% reflected the impact of the exit of solids, Alberta personal auto business, which we classify as it exited lie.

Rowan Saunders: Given the loss-making nature of Sonnet's Alberta auto book, withdrawing our business there enabled the consolidated Sonnet business to generate a profitable underwriting performance in the quarter. The negative drag on profitability from Sonnet is now behind us.

Ron: Given the loss, making nature of solids, Alberta auto book withdrawing our business that enable the consolidated solid business to generate profitable underwriting performance in the quarter.

Ron: The negative drag on profitability from solid is now behind us.

Ron: Being positioned to generate a modest underwriting profit in 2025 is not the angle, but it is an important milestone.

Rowan Saunders: Being positioned to generate a modest underwriting profit in 2025 is not the end goal, but it is an important milestone. Thank you to the teams involved for their tremendous efforts. I'm confident that we can profitably scale the business in the years to come, creating further value for Definity. Turning to the industry outlook on slide 8. We believe the operating environment is one that remains conducive to sustaining firm market conditions overall. We expect conditions in auto lines to remain firm as insurers aim to keep pace with the combined impact of ongoing cost pressures, regulatory constraints in Alberta, and uncertainty related to the extent and impact of potential US tariffs and retaliatory actions. We also expect market conditions in personal property to remain firm over the next 12 months, particularly following last year's record of close to CAD 9 billion in industry catastrophe losses.

Ron: Thank you to the teams involved for their tremendous efforts.

Ron: Confident that we can profitably scale the business in the years to come creating further value for the affinity.

Ron: Turning to the industry outlook on slide eight.

Ron: We believe the operating environment is one that remains conducive to sustaining firm Marc because overall.

Rowan Saunders: We expect conditions in auto lines to remain firm as insurers aim to keep pace with the combined impact of ongoing cost pressures, regulatory constraints in Alberta, and uncertainty related to the extent and impact of potential US tariffs and retaliatory actions. We also expect market conditions in personal property to remain firm over the next 12 months, particularly following last year's record of close to CAD 9 billion in industry catastrophe losses.

We expect conditions in auto lines to remain firm as.

Ron: Insurers aimed to keep pace with the combined impact of ongoing cost pressures regulatory constraints, and Alberta and uncertainty related to the extent and impact of potential U S tariffs and retaliatory actions.

Ron: We also expect market conditions in personal property to remain firm over the next 12 months, particularly following last year's record of close to $9 billion industry catastrophe losses.

Ron: While we expect overall commercialized market conditions to remain attractive we are seeing some commercial segments.

Rowan Saunders: While we expect overall commercial lines market conditions to remain attractive, we are seeing some commercial segments have become more competitive. Overall, we expect the industry's return on equity to be close to its long-run average of 10% in 2025. Slide nine illustrates our key financial metrics. As you can see, we met or beat each metric in 2024. We are confident that we have the growth platforms to outpace the market over time, and will continue to protect and improve company profitability along the way. We have several organic levers being pulled aimed at improving operating results in the near term. As such, we are targeting to deliver a sub 95% annual combined ratio over the cycle. We believe this will enable us to continue driving our operating ROE higher within our guidance range.

Ron: Become more competitive.

Ron: Overall, we expect the industry return on equity to be close to its long run average of 10% in 2025.

Ron: Slide nine illustrates our key financial metrics as you can see we've met or beat each metric in 2024.

Ron: We're confident that we have the growth platforms to outpace the market over time, and we'll continue to protect and improve company profitability along the way.

Ron: We have several organic levers being pulled aimed at improving operating results in the near term as such we are targeting to deliver a sub 95% annual combined ratio over the cycle.

Ron: We believe this will enable us to continue driving our operating ROE higher within our guidance range.

Rowan Saunders: Though recognizing that the challenging weather events from Q3 2024 will weigh on this metric until the second half of 2025. Slide 10 illustrates the composition of our national broker platform. We've made great progress in the past few years to develop it into a vehicle to diversify and strengthen the earnings profile of the business with repeatable distribution income that complements our underwriting operations. We expect continued M&A activity and the organic growth momentum of the business to result in at least CAD 1.5 billion of managed premiums by the end of 2026. That's earlier than we originally anticipated. We continued our growth trajectory with several additional acquisitions last year, which enabled us to achieve our objective for 2024 operating income from this part of the business, despite lower contingent profit expectations.

Ron: So recognizing that the challenging weather events from the third quarter up 24 way on this metric until the second half of 'twenty five.

Ron: Slide 10 illustrates the composition of our national broker platform.

Ron: Made great progress in the past few years to develop it into a vehicle to diversify and strengthen the earnings profile of the business with repeatable distribution income that complements our underwriting operations.

Ron: We expect continued M&A activity and the organic growth momentum of the business as a result in at least one 5 billion.

Ron: Of managed premiums by the end of 2026, that's earlier than we originally anticipated.

Continued our growth trajectory with several additional acquisitions last year, which enabled us to achieve our objective for 2020 for operating income from this part of the business. Despite.

Ron: Lower contingent profit expectations.

Rowan Saunders: In 2024, our national broker platform generated CAD 76 billion of operating income. We expect to increase this by approximately 15% in 2025, with a similar 70-30 split between distribution income and commission offset. With that, I'll turn the call over to our CFO, Philip Mather, to go through our results in more detail.

Ron: In 2024 hour national broker platform generated $76 billion of operating income.

Expect to increase this by approximately 15% in 2025 with a similar 70 30 split between distribution income and commission offset.

Ron: And with that I'll turn the call over to our CFO Paul.

Paul Aside: We go through our results in more detail.

Harlan: Thanks, Harlan I'll begin on slide 12 with personal also.

Philip Mather: Thanks, Rowan. I'll begin on slide 12 with personal auto. For the full year, top line growth of 12.7% reflected the beneficial impact of portfolio transfers as well as our improved competitive position after having been an early mover on rates in 2023. This past fall, we took further rate and segmentation actions which tempered underlying growth somewhat in Q4, coming in at 9.6%. This is largely in line with our expectations. As you know, we removed Sonnet's personal auto business in Alberta from our operating results. Classifying this book as an exited line impacted growth in auto by 4.1 points in Q4.

Speaker Change: For the full year topline growth is 12, 7% reflected the beneficial impacts the portfolio transfers as well as our improved competitive position after having been an early mover on rates in 2023.

Speaker Change: This past fall, we took further rates and segmentation actions, which tencent underlying growth somewhat in the fourth quarter coming in at nine 6%.

Speaker Change: This is largely in line with our expectations.

Speaker Change: As you know we removed <unk> personal auto business in Alberta from our operating results.

Speaker Change: Classifying this boat because the next deadline impacted gross and also by four one points in the fourth quarter.

Philip Mather: Looking to 2025, we expect the full year pace of growth to remain in the upper single digits, but we expect it to exhibit volatility from quarter to quarter, particularly given the large portfolio transfers that bolstered growth in the first half of 2024. Personal auto reported a solid combined ratio of 96.1% in the quarter, largely consistent with a year ago. The full year result of 96.7% was 1.6 points better than 2023. The performance reflects an improvement in the core accident year claims ratio, driven by higher earned rates, stabilized loss cost trends, and the improved Sonnet performance. For 2025, we expect to continue to deliver a mid-90s combined ratio in personal auto, with a reminder that the Q1 of the year typically experiences higher combined ratios due to winter seasonality.

Speaker Change: Looking into 2025, we expect our full year pace of growth to remain in the upper single digits.

Speaker Change: Exhibit volatility from quarter to quarter, particularly given the large portfolio transfer as opposed to growth in the first half of 2024.

Speaker Change: First of all also reported a solid combined ratio of 96, 1% in the quarter.

Speaker Change: Lastly, consistent with a year ago.

Speaker Change: The full year results of 96, 7% was one six points better than 2023.

Speaker Change: Performance reflects an improvement in the core accident year claims ratio driven by high run rates stabilized loss cost trends and the improved site performance.

Speaker Change: The 2025, we expect to continue to deliver in mid Ninety's combined ratio in personal auto with a reminder, that the first quarter of the year typically experiences higher combined ratios due to winter seasonality.

Turning to personal property on slide 13 premiums increased six 2% in the fourth quarter.

Philip Mather: Turning to personal property on slide 13, premiums increased 6.2% in Q4, benefiting from continued firm market conditions driving increases in average written premiums. This was partially offset by ongoing actions to address risk concentration in regions with a higher propensity for peril events. We expect this line to grow at an upper single digit pace in 2025, given the firm pricing conditions prevalent in the industry. Focusing on the bottom line, the personal property combined ratio was strong at 82.8% in Q4, despite more than 7 points of catastrophe losses driven by flooding in BC. The increase in catastrophe losses was partially offset by higher favorable claims development, improvement in the core accident year claims ratio, and a decrease in the expense ratio.

Speaker Change: Benefiting from continued market conditions driving increases in average written premiums.

Speaker Change: This was partially offset by ongoing actions to address risk concentration in regions with a high propensity for apparel events.

Speaker Change: We expect this line to grow at an upper single digit pace in 2025.

Speaker Change: The third pricing conditions prevalent in the industry.

Speaker Change: Focusing on bottom line personal property combined ratio was strong at 82, 8% in the fourth quarter, despite more than seven points of catastrophe losses, driven by flooding in BC.

Speaker Change: The increase in catastrophe losses was partially offset by higher favorable claims development and improvements in the core accident year claims ratio and a decrease in the expense ratio.

Philip Mather: For the year, the personal property combined ratio improved due to higher favorable claims development and a decrease in the expense ratio. Our focus on disciplined underwriting and proactive rate actions enabled us to deliver on our mid-90s objective in 2024 for this line of business, despite 15.7 points of catastrophe losses. Overall, we're targeting a sub-95 combined ratio for the personal property line of business in 2025. Slide 14 outlines the highlights in the quarter for our commercial business. As double-digit growth in commercial lines continued with gross written premiums of 10.7% versus the prior year. Our strong results in commercial insurance reflect attractive market conditions, our underwriting capabilities, and a comprehensive value proposition that is well supported by our broker partners across Canada.

Speaker Change: For the year, the personal property combined ratio improved due to higher favorable claims development and a decrease in the expense ratio.

Speaker Change: Our focus on disciplined underwriting and proactive rate actions enabled us to deliver on our mid nineties objective in 2020 for this line of business. Despite 15 seven points of catastrophe losses.

Speaker Change: Overall, we're targeting a sub 95 combined ratio for the personal property line of business in 2025.

Speaker Change: Slide 14 outlines the highlights in the quarter for our commercial business as double digit growth in commercial lines continued with gross written premiums up 10, 7% versus the prior year.

Speaker Change: Our strong results in commercial insurance reflects the attractive market conditions, our underwriting capabilities and a comprehensive value proposition and is well supported by our broker partners across Canada.

Philip Mather: In small business, our SME Pathway capability continues to allow our broker partners to quote and bind over 50% of their business in an automated and digital manner. In specialty, our D&O, E&O, surety, and large account capabilities are also benefiting from strong momentum, a result of the comprehensive underwriting and risk management capabilities we now have in place. While the large account segment has become more competitive, we continue to cover the loss trends in our commercial portfolio with appropriate pricing and underwriting strategies, which supports our objective for low nineties combined ratios. We expect that we can maintain our pace of growth at twice the industry growth rate, which should translate into approximately 10% growth in 2025. For the year, the commercial lines combined ratio was also strong at 89.4% compared to 88.8% in 2023.

Speaker Change: In small business, our SME pathway capability continues to allow our broker partners to quote and bind over 50% of the business in an automated manner.

Speaker Change: In specialty our D&O D&O surety and large account capabilities are also benefiting from strong momentum.

Speaker Change: Results of the comprehensive underwriting and risk management capabilities, we now have in place.

Speaker Change: While the large accounts segments has become more competitive we continue to cover the loss trends in our commercial portfolio with appropriate pricing and underwriting strategies, which supports our objective to low ninety's combined ratios.

Philip Mather: We expect that we can maintain our pace of growth at twice the industry growth rate, which should translate into approximately 10% growth in 2025. For the year, the commercial lines combined ratio was also strong at 89.4% compared to 88.8% in 2023.

Speaker Change: We expect that we can maintain our pace of growth at twice the industry growth rates, which should translate into approximately 10% growth in 2025.

Speaker Change: For the year the commercial lines combined ratio was also strong at 89, 4% compared to 88, 8% in 2023.

Speaker Change: The modest increase was driven by higher catastrophe losses, and lower favorable claims development.

Philip Mather: The modest increase was driven by higher catastrophe losses and lower favorable claims development, largely offset by improvements in both the core accident year claims ratio and the expense ratio. Remember that prior year development in 2023 benefited from a release of COVID-19 related provisions in Q2 of the year, which improved the full year combined ratio by 1.2 percentage points. Putting this all together on slide 15, we generated record operating net income of CAD 110.4 million in Q4, reflecting strong underwriting income together with growing contributions from our insurance broker platform and net investment income. Our consolidated underwriting income improved by CAD 10 million in the quarter and more than CAD 67 million for the year. This is remarkable considering the significant catastrophe losses that impacted our industry during the year.

Speaker Change: Largely offset by improvements in both the core accident year claims ratio and the expense ratio.

Speaker Change: Remember the prior year developments in 2023 benefited from a release of COVID-19 related provisions in the second quarter of the year, which improved the full year combined ratio by one two percentage points.

Speaker Change: Putting this altogether on slide 15, we generated record operating net income of $110 $4 million in the fourth quarter.

Speaker Change: Reflecting strong underwriting income together with growing contributions from our insurance broker platform.

Speaker Change: Net investment income.

Speaker Change: Our consolidated underwriting income improved by $10 million in the quarter and more than $67 million for the year. This is remarkable considering the significant catastrophe losses that impacted our industry during the year.

Philip Mather: Our strategic approach to accumulation management, product design, and the excellent performance of our catastrophe response teams enabled us to experience well below our expected market share of industry losses, particularly in Alberta. The increase in interest income in the quarter was driven by higher holdings of bonds. For the year, interest income also increased due to higher fixed income yields proactively captured within the portfolio throughout the prior year. The level of net investment income in 2025 is currently expected to be largely unchanged from 2024 as market yields have fallen below book yields. In the near term, growth is more likely to be driven by new class, new cash deployment into the portfolio rather than incremental yield capture. This modest outlook reflects our preference to deploy capital into high-yielding investments in distribution and organic growth initiatives, and driven by reinvestment yields.

Speaker Change: Our strategic approach to accumulation management product design and the excellent performance of our catastrophe response teams enabled us to experience well below our expected market share of industry losses, particularly in Alberta.

Speaker Change: The increase in interest income in the quarter was driven by higher holdings of bonds to.

Speaker Change: For the year interest income also increased due to higher fixed income yields proactively captured within the portfolio throughout the prior year.

Speaker Change: Level of net investment income in 2025 is currently expected to be largely unchanged from 2024 as market yields fallen below book yields.

Philip Mather: In the near term, growth is more likely to be driven by new class, new cash deployment into the portfolio rather than incremental yield capture. This modest outlook reflects our preference to deploy capital into high-yielding investments in distribution and organic growth initiatives, and driven by reinvestment yields.

Speaker Change: In the near term growth is more likely to be driven by new class, new cash deployment into the portfolio rather than incremental yield capture.

Speaker Change: This modest outlook reflects a preference to deploy capital into high yielding investments in distribution and organic growth initiatives.

Speaker Change: To drive and reinvestment yields.

Speaker Change: Distribution income in the fourth quarter increased by $2 $6 million year over year, driven primarily by the contributions from acquisitions combined with solid underlying organic growth.

Philip Mather: Distribution income in Q4 increased by CAD 2.6 million year-over-year, driven primarily by the contributions from acquisitions combined with solid underlying organic growth. For the year, distribution income of CAD 54.4 million was right in line with our expectation, despite lower contingent profit commissions. As Rowan indicated, we expect results from this business to grow approximately 15% in 2025. Turning to slide 16, our outperformance versus the market in 2024 from a relative catastrophe loss perspective certainly aided our ability to successfully renew our reinsurance program for 2025. While our attachment points increased modestly from CAD 60 million to CAD 75 million, the program's upper limits remained unchanged. The full placement of our catastrophe coverage between our attachment point and CAD 180 million in 2025 helps mitigate the potential impact from large events.

Speaker Change: For the year distribution income of $54 $4 million was right in line with our expectations, Despite lower contingent profit commissions.

Speaker Change: As Robin indicated we expect results from this business to grow approximately 15% in 2025.

Speaker Change: Turning to slide 16, our outperformance versus the market in 2024 from a relative catastrophe loss perspective, certainly aided our ability to successfully renew our reinsurance program for 2025.

Speaker Change: While our attachment points increased modestly from $60 million $75 million the programs upper limits remained unchanged.

Speaker Change: The full placements of our catastrophe coverage between our attachment points and $180 million in 2025 helps mitigate the potential impacts from large events.

Philip Mather: When we consider the impact of co-participation and reinstatement premiums, the net impact of a CAD 100 million catastrophe loss today is essentially unchanged from 2024, despite the growth in our insurance business. Given this, we opted not to renew the multi-year aggregate treaty as we have successfully navigated the increase in our attachment points over the past few years while managing volatility. Slide 17 illustrates the continued strengthening of our financial position in 2024. Our 17.6% increase in book value per share to CAD 29.13 was primarily due to strong operating performance and the return of restricted cash of CAD 150 million, partially offset by our dividend distributions for the year. As you can see on slide 18, our financial position is robust with nearly CAD 1.7 billion of financial capacity.

Speaker Change: When we consider the impact of co participation and reinstatement premiums.

Speaker Change: Net impact of $100 million catastrophe loss today is essentially unchanged from 2024, despite the growth in our insurance business.

Speaker Change: Given this we opted not to renew the multiyear aggregate treaty as we have successfully navigated the increase in our attachment points over the past few years, while managing volatility.

Speaker Change: Slide 17 illustrates the continued strengthening of our financial position in 2024.

Speaker Change: Our 17, 6% increase in book value per share to $29 13 was primarily due to strong operating performance and the return of restricted cash of $150 million.

Speaker Change: Partially offset by our dividend distributions for the year.

Speaker Change: As you can see on slide 18, our financial position is robust with nearly $1 7 billion of financial processes.

Speaker Change: Our capital priorities remain unchanged with the primary focus being it's part of our organic growth strategy.

Philip Mather: Our capital priorities remain unchanged, with the primary focus being in support of our organic growth strategy. We're also proud of our track record of consistent dividend growth, including the 17.2% quarterly increase announced last night. We have a clear objective to build Definity into one of the five largest P&C insurers in Canada. This requires inorganic growth, which could include both insurance carriers and distributors. The optimization of our balance sheet through integrated acquisitions would ultimately enable us to move our targeted operating ROE range into the teens. With that, I will turn the call back over to Rowan for some final remarks.

Speaker Change: We're also proud of our track record of consistent dividend growth.

Speaker Change: Including the 17, 2% quarterly increase announced last night.

Speaker Change: We have a clear objective to build affinity into one of the five largest P&C insurers in Canada.

Speaker Change: This requires inorganic growth, which could include both insurance carriers and distributors.

Speaker Change: The optimization of our balance sheet through integrated acquisitions would ultimately enable us to move our targeted operating range into the teams.

Speaker Change: With that I will turn the call back over to Rowan to some final remarks.

Rowan Saunders: Thanks, Phil. As we enter our fourth year as a proudly Canadian public company, we've once again been recognized by Great Place To Work Institute for a couple of awards. Late last year, we were recognized as one of the best workplaces in Ontario. More recently, I'm happy to say that my team was identified as one of Canada's most trusted executive teams. These awards reinforce what I witness at Definity on a daily basis. Leaders and individual contributors alike making deep connections to drive business results within the context of our company's purpose-driven culture. I'm also incredibly proud to announce that Definity has recently become a United Nations Women's Empowerment signatory. This signals our strong commitment to advancing gender equality in the workplace. Definity is the first P&C insurer in Canada to become such a signatory.

Speaker Change: Thanks, Phil as we enter our fourth year as a proudly Canadian public company. We have once again been recognized by great place to work Institute for a couple of awards late last year. We were recognized that one of the best workplaces in Ontario, or recently I'm happy to say that my team was identified as one of Canada's.

Speaker Change: Trusted executive teams. These awards reinforce what I witnessed at the affinity on a daily basis, fajitas and individual contributors alike, making deep connections to drive business results within the context of our company's purpose driven culture.

Rowan Saunders: I'm also incredibly proud to announce that Definity has recently become a United Nations Women's Empowerment signatory. This signals our strong commitment to advancing gender equality in the workplace. Definity is the first P&C insurer in Canada to become such a signatory.

Speaker Change: I'm also incredibly proud to announce that affinity has recently become a United Nations Women's empowerment signatory.

Speaker Change: This signals a strong commitment to advancing gender equality in the workplace.

Speaker Change: <unk> is the first P&C insurer in Canada to become such a signatory.

Speaker Change: We have an excellent team in place and support our broker partners to continue building on our track record of success, having already shown a remarkable level of resilience.

Rowan Saunders: We have an excellent team in place and supportive broker partners to continue building on our track record of success, having already shown a remarkable level of resilience through a global pandemic, to the subsequent supply chain disruptions leading to rampant inflation, to consecutive years of elevated losses from catastrophe weather events. I'm extremely proud of the capabilities we've built and the achievements we've reached together. We have a proven business model, an experienced team, and a strong balance sheet, all of which give me great confidence that we'll be successfully able to navigate the uncertainties that lie ahead. With that, I'll turn the call back over to Dennis to begin the Q&A session.

Speaker Change: Through a global pandemic to the subsequent supply chain disruptions, leading to ramp at inflation two consecutive years of elevated losses from catastrophe weather events.

Speaker Change: I'm extremely proud of the capabilities, we've built and the achievements we've reached together we.

Speaker Change: We have a proven business model and experienced team and a strong balance sheet all of which give me great confidence that we'll be successfully able to navigate the uncertainties that lie ahead.

Dennis Westphal: And with that I'll turn the call back over to Dennis to begin the Q&A session.

Thanks, Ron with that we are now ready to take questions.

Dennis Westfall: Thanks, Rowan. With that, we are now ready to take questions.

Dennis Westphal: Yeah.

Thank you ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin the question and answer session.

Operator: Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin the question and answer session. If you would like to ask a question, please press star then the number one on your telephone keypad. If you are using a speaker phone, please make sure your mute function is turned off to allow your signal to reach our equipment. Again, please press star one to ask the question, and we'll pause for just a moment to compile the Q&A roster. Our first question comes from the line of Tom McKinnon from BMO Capital Markets. Your line is open.

Speaker Change: If you would like to ask a question. Please press Star then the number one on your telephone keypad. If you are using a speaker phone. Please make sure. Your mute function is turned off to allow your signal third each hour equipment.

Speaker Change: Again, Please press star one to ask the question and we'll pause for just a moment to compile the Q&A roster.

Speaker Change: Yeah.

Speaker Change: Our first question comes from the line of Tom Mackinnon from BMO capital markets. Your line is open.

Speaker Change: Yes, thanks very much good morning.

Tom MacKinnon: Yeah, thanks very much. Good morning. Just a question with respect to distribution income. I believe it's kinda CAD 12 million in the quarter. It seemed to be a little bit lower sequentially than what we had seen in the last couple of quarters, on perhaps elevated expenses. Is there seasonality with respect to this? Just some clarification there. Thanks.

Speaker Change: Just a question with respect to distribution income.

Speaker Change: We've kind of $12 million in the quarter it seemed to be a little bit lower sequentially than what we had seen in the last couple of quarters.

Speaker Change: Yeah.

Speaker Change: Perhaps elevated expenses is there seasonality with respect to this.

Speaker Change: Just some clarification there thanks.

Speaker Change: Yeah, Thanks, Tom It's Phil here.

Philip Mather: Yeah. Thanks, Tom. It's Phil here. I think what we saw in the quarter was a couple of things. One, you get a little bit of seasonality in Q4. It's not as pronounced as Q1 just from a premium level. Then secondly, the expenses were up just a couple of million CAD. That was really just timing of recognition of expenses throughout the year. It caused a little bit of noise in the quarter, but actually we were kind of bang on line with the underlying expectations. When you play that out across the entire year, very comfortable with the CAD 76 million that was generated, kind of bang in line with expectations despite the CPC.

Speaker Change: I think what we saw in the quarter, whereas a couple of things one you've got a little bit of seasonality in Q4, it's not as pronounced as the first quarter just from a premium level.

Speaker Change: And then secondly, the expenses were up just a couple of million dollars that was really just timing of recognition of expenses throughout the year. So that caused a little bit of noise in the quarter, but actually we were kind of buying online with the underlying expectations and then when you play that out across the entire year are very comfortable with the 76.

Speaker Change: That was generated kind of buying in line with expectations. Despite the CPC. So there's just a little bit of timing noise a couple of million Bucks.

Philip Mather: There's just a little bit of timing noise of CAD 2 million of just timing of when the expenses were recognized.

Speaker Change: Just timing of when the expenses were recognized.

Rowan Saunders: I think, Tom, maybe just to add to that, I think that we are very pleased with this investment. As you know, we've deployed over CAD 800 million. We've built this into a top ten broker, and we see a very good pipeline here. The team has done really, really well. We were quite active last year with about, you know, 8 transactions done. As Phil said, you know, that's the contribution of the earnings. We think between their organic growth and some M&A, you know, there's another 15% guidance and an increase in distribution income, you know, next year. We're very pleased with this. As you said, there's a little bit of seasonality impact, but it's something that's looking very good from our perspective.

Speaker Change: And I think Tom maybe just to add to that I think that we are very pleased with this investment as you know we've deployed over $800 million. We've built this into a top 10 broker.

Speaker Change: And we see a very good pipeline, yes. So the team has done really really well we were quite active last year with about eight transactions done.

Speaker Change: And as Phil said, that's the contribution of the earnings and we think between their organic growth and M&A, yes, there's another 50% guidance and an increase in distribution. He come next next year. So we're very pleased with this and as you said, there's a little bit of seasonality impact, but it's a it's something that's booked.

Speaker Change: Very good for it from our perspective.

Tom MacKinnon: Okay, great. Thanks.

Speaker Change: Okay, great. Thanks.

Speaker Change: Our next question comes from the line of my press hard from Cormack. Your line is open.

Operator: Our next question comes from the line of Lemar Persaud from Cormark. Your line is open.

Speaker Change: Yeah. Thank several changes to the reinsurance program, which you guys highlighted higher attachment point, but then full coverage to the 180 million and then above that it looks like higher retention rate and then you no longer have you add covered so lots of changes. There can you help me understand what 2020 for cat losses would have been under that 2025.

Lemar Persaud: Yeah, thanks. Several changes to the reinsurance program, which you guys highlighted, higher attachment point, but then full coverage to CAD 180 million. Above that looks like higher retention rate. You no longer have the aggregate cover. Lots of changes there. Can you help me understand what 2024 cat losses would have been under the 2025 reinsurance program? Like, would I be right in assuming that cat losses would have been higher under the 2025 program?

Speaker Change: <unk> program like would I be right.

Speaker Change: And assuming that cat losses would have been higher under the 2025 program.

Speaker Change: Thanks, Thomas Yeah. The only difference that you would've seen between 2024 and 2025 was just the utilization of the aggregates. So in 'twenty four we did utilize the October last year.

Philip Mather: Thanks, Lemar. Yeah. The only difference that you would have seen between 2024 and 2025 was just the utilization of the aggregate. In 2024, we did utilize the ag cover for that last year, to the extent of CAD 25 million recovery. But we also had to pay for that, obviously. If you look at the overall net impact on, you know, the underwriting results for the year, it, you know, it's probably half of that impact or less. You'd get a cat loss increase for the utilization of the ag, but obviously we wouldn't have had the premium cost associated with it. The actual attachment points weren't breached on any of the events, last year.

Speaker Change: And to the extent, it's $25 million recovery.

Speaker Change: But we also have to pace that obviously, so if you look at the overall net impact on <unk>.

Speaker Change: The underwriting results for the year.

Speaker Change: It was probably half of that impact or less so.

Speaker Change: You'd get a you'd get a cat loss increase for the utilization of the AG, but obviously, we wouldn't have had the premium cost associated with that.

Speaker Change: Actual attachment points breached on any of the events last year and that was really driven by the very fact effective capital management that we have three that yeah. So it's actually a very good outcome for us from those individual catastrophe losses. So really it's just the existence of the aggregates that would've created the difference.

Philip Mather: That was really driven by the very effective cat loss management that we had through that year. It was actually a very good outcome for us from those individual catastrophe losses. Really it's just the existence of the aggregate that would have created the difference.

Speaker Change: Okay. That's helpful. Okay and then.

Lemar Persaud: Oh, okay, that's helpful. Okay. Just kind of building on that, can you help me understand why you guys didn't raise the cat loss guidance above 4.5% of premiums? I like I would have thought that maybe that would be moving higher just given, you know, increasing frequency and severity of cat losses and the changes to the current reinsurance program. Like, maybe it could be due to you guys being more cautious in certain cat affected regions or something like that. Like, just some thoughts on keeping the cat loss guidance the same.

Speaker Change: Just kind of building on that can you help me understand why you guys didn't raise the Nat cat.

Speaker Change: Cat loss guidance above 4.5% of premiums I like I would have thought that maybe that would be moving higher just given.

Speaker Change: Creasing frequency and severity of cat losses, and the changes to the current reinsurance program like maybe it could be due to you guys being more cautious in certain cat affected regions or something like that like just some thoughts.

Speaker Change: On keeping the cat loss guidance.

Speaker Change: Okay.

Speaker Change: Yeah that was it first kind of comments I'd make there is that.

Rowan Saunders: Yeah. Lamar, the first kinda comment I'd make there is that, you know, obviously when we think about 2024, I mean, this was a real historic year in terms of cat losses, around CAD 9 billion. One message would be we're not expecting that to continue. We don't see this as the new normal. I think the second part of this is that Definity has quite significantly outperformed on this exposure. When you think about our natural market share, our cat losses last year were about 50% of what our natural market share is. On the one hand, that shows that there's a lot of resilience in the portfolio. Personal property still made an underwriting profit. The company in the record cat year delivered a sub 95%.

Speaker Change: When we think about 2024 I mean, this was a real historic year in terms of cat losses around $9 billion at <unk>.

Speaker Change: One message would be we're not expecting that to continue we don't see this as the new normal I think the second part of this is Pat.

Speaker Change: So then he has quite.

Speaker Change: Significantly outperformed on this this exposure so would you think about our natural market share of our cat losses last year were about 50% of what our natural market share is.

Speaker Change: And on the one end that shows that Theres a lot of resilience in the portfolio of coastal property is still made that right profit the company and the record cat yet deliberate a sub 95%, but also because there's so many actions that are underway and moving forward and so when we think about that guidance.

Rowan Saunders: Also because there's so many actions that are underway and moving forward. When we think about that guidance, we do expect a larger dollar. Don't forget the business is bigger and there's a lot of activity. Maybe it's worth, you know, Paul just can add a little bit of color into the types of activities that we're driving to manage that.

Speaker Change: We do expect a larger dollar but don't forget the business is bigger and there's a lot of activity and maybe it's worth Paul just if you can add a little bit of color into the types of activities that we're driving to manage that yes, absolutely and just.

Paul MacDonald: Yeah, absolutely. Just to emphasize what Rowan said about performance. As a proof point, Alberta represented almost half of all of the cat claims in the industry last year. In Alberta, we have about 3% property market share and 4.7% auto market share. When you look at our market share of the cats, we only had a 1.5% market share of the hailstorm and only a 1% market share of the Jasper wildfire. When you couple together what Rowan said about naturally we're gonna be growing, so the dollar figure gets bigger, plus all of the activities that we've taken to address our concentration and peril risk, I think we're in a very strong position to support our cat loadings for next year.

Speaker Change: <unk> said about.

Paul Aside: Farm itself as a proof point, Alberta represented almost half of all of the cat claims in the industry last year and in Alberta, We had about we have about 3% property market share and four 7% auto market share when you look at our market share of the cats.

Paul Aside: We only had one and a half market share the hailstorm and only 1%.

Paul Aside: Market share of the Jasper wildfire, so when you coupled together, what ROE inside about and actually we're going to be growing. So the dollar figure gets bigger plus all of the activities that we've taken to address our concentration in parallel risk.

Paul Aside: Think we're in a very strong position to support our cat loadings for next year and I'll also remind you even with Ah 95th percentile experience like we had last year.

Paul MacDonald: I'll also remind you, even with a ninety-fifth percentile experience like we had last year, we, as Rowan said, we still came in with a profit-making line, so we're quite comfortable.

Speaker Change: As Ron said, we still came in with a with a profit banking line. So we're quite comfortable.

Philip Mather: The only extra piece I'd add to that, is that, if you look at the classification of cat losses, we made a small definitional change, where we now include individual losses above CAD 5 million for 2025 onwards within the category. That's primarily just driven by the increased scaling of our business overall, natural inflation, and then just the increased capabilities that we have in the commercial business. A CAD 3 million dollar loss for us today, we would not consider that to be out of the ordinary in any state. If you'd left the CAD 3 million alone, the 4.5 would have probably been 5%. You will see a small rebalancing between attritional losses and cat losses for that small definitional change.

Paul Aside: The only extra piece.

Paul Aside: That is that.

Paul Aside: If you look at the classification of Cat losses, we made a small definitional change.

Paul Aside: We now include individual losses above $5 million for 2025 onwards.

Paul Aside: Within the category.

Paul Aside: Primarily just driven by the increased scaling of our business overall actual inflation and then just the increased capabilities that we have in the commercial business. So.

Paul Aside: $3 million.

Speaker Change: Philosophers today, we would not consider that to be outside the ordinary and I need states, if you'd left the $3 million alone.

Speaker Change: More than a half would've probably been 5%. So you will see a small rebalancing between our attritional losses, and cat losses for that small definitional change, but very respectful of the scaling up of the business.

Philip Mather: We're very respectful of the scaling up of the business, and the increased capabilities within commercial lines.

Speaker Change: On the increased capabilities within commercial lines.

Speaker Change: That's helpful. Thank you very much.

Lemar Persaud: That's helpful. Thank you very much. If I could just squeeze one final one in here. I wanna come back to your slide 10, where you guys highlight your broker acquisitions from 2022 to 2024, 'cause it does kinda paint the picture of what I'm getting at. 2022, 2023, you're more active on the premiums acquired 'cause you had to build out the platform, which makes sense. 2024, the focus looks like it was more on tuck-in acquisitions 'cause, you know, obviously lower premiums acquired here. Would it be fair to suggest that, you know, the focus for M&A for Definity is shifting more towards insurance carrier acquisitions rather than broker acquisitions? Yeah, I'll just leave it there.

Speaker Change: If I could just squeeze one final one in here I want to come back to your slide 10, where you guys highlight.

Speaker Change: Your broker acquisitions from 2022 to 2020 for it because it does kind of paint the picture of what I'm getting at 2022 2023 or more active on the premiums acquired because you have to build out the platform, which makes sense 2024.

Speaker Change: The focus it looks like it was more on tuck in tuck in acquisitions, because obviously lower.

Speaker Change: Premiums acquired here.

Speaker Change: Would it be fair to suggest that the focus for M&A for definitive is shifting more towards insurance carrier acquisitions, rather than broker acquisitions.

Speaker Change: Yes, I'll just leave it there.

Speaker Change: Yeah look I think thats, what was importance on the broker platform for US was initially to get some really strong high performing large anchor brokers say so in the earlier years, you saw some larger transactions being done there.

Rowan Saunders: Yeah. Look, I think that what was important on the broker platform for us was initially to get some really strong, high-performing large anchor brokers. In the earlier, you know, years you saw some larger transactions being done. They now are in effect in a programmatic way doing a roll-up. I think that there is more numbers of smaller transactions that have been done. That doesn't mean we wouldn't be open for another larger broker transaction. We would. What you're seeing is exactly that. I think that's why there's a greater number of the lower value of acquired business in the broker platform. Of course, those are even more synergistic and create more value as they put onto the McDougall's platform. That's that.

Speaker Change: They now are in effect in a programmatic way doing a rollout and so I think that there is more more numbers of smaller transactions that have been done that doesn't mean, we wouldn't be open for a larger another larger broker transaction we would.

Speaker Change: But what you're seeing is exactly that so so I think thats why theres, a greater number of <unk>, but a lower value of acquired business in the broker platform and of course, those are even more synergistic and create more value as they put out to the mcdougal's platform. So that's that but I wouldn't agree with your point that look we are.

Rowan Saunders: I would agree with your point that look, we are thinking about transactions for carriers as well as brokers. We're happy with how the broker distribution's gone. It's now moving forward quite nicely. Clearly, you know, as we think about deploying the excess capital that we have, looking for carriers, it makes total sense for us. As we've said in the past, we think our thesis is the world's getting more complicated. Size, scale, is increasingly important, and we think there'll be more opportunities ahead. As we've reminded people, we've built a platform for a bigger business. We think that an in-market acquisition would be very synergistic, you know, for ourselves. You know, it's not that we wouldn't continue investing in the broker channel, but definitely our attention is on the carrier side.

Speaker Change: Thinking about trends transactions for.

Speaker Change: Carriers as well as brokers we have.

Speaker Change: Happy with how the broker distributions gone, it's now moving forward quite nicely and clearly as we think about deploying the excess capital that we have.

Speaker Change: Looking for carriers. It makes total sense for us as we've said in the past we think our thesis is the world is getting more complicated size scale.

Speaker Change: Is increasingly important and we think there'll be more opportunities ahead as we've reminded people. We've built the platform for a bigger business. We think that's an in market acquisition would be very synergistic for ourselves. So it's.

Speaker Change: It's not that we wouldn't continue investing in the broker channel, but definitely our attention is on the carrier side.

Lemar Persaud: Thanks. That's it for me.

Speaker Change: Thanks, that's it for me.

Speaker Change: Our next question comes from the line of Mario Mendonca from TD Securities. Your line is open.

Operator: Our next question comes from the line of Mario Mendonca from TD Securities. Your line is open.

Mario Mendonca: Good morning. Rowan, this might be a little touchy, but we are getting close to that four-year period, the end of November being the end of the demutualization protection, and the conversation is coming up more frequently. What I wanna ask is there anything in the governance agreements with the original cornerstone investors that would make it difficult for a potential bidder for Definity, if that's in fact where this heads later on this year?

Mario Mendonca: Good morning, Ron this might be a little touchy, but we are getting close to that four year period.

Mario Mendonca: The end of November being the end of the Demutualization protection in the conversations coming up more frequently.

Mario Mendonca: What I wanted to ask is there anything in the governance agreements with the original cornerstone investors that would make it difficult for potential bidder for definitive if that's in fact, whereas hedge later on this year.

Mario Mendonca: Yeah.

Speaker Change: Look Barry I think a couple of points there would be if I just step back for the big context is look the whole reason for the affinity going through Demutualization of becoming a public company was so we could be at a leading P&C company in Canada I think if you look at the progress in the last kind of three years, we've definitely demonstrating that opportunity.

Rowan Saunders: Look, Mario, I think a couple of points there would be, if I just step back to the big context is, look, the whole reason for Definity going through demutualization, becoming a public company was so we could be a leading P&C company in Canada. I think if you look at the progress in the last kind of three years, we're definitely demonstrating, you know, that opportunity. We're very pleased of what we've built. Margins are good. Revenue is up significantly. The team, quite frankly, sees big opportunities ahead. Really our focus is about, you know, building value kind of going forward there. We do have some cornerstone investors, and those agreements that we have are actually publicly filed, and that's available to be looked at.

Speaker Change: We're very pleased of what we built margins are good revenue is up significantly and the team quite frankly see as big opportunities here, So really our focus.

Speaker Change: Is about building value.

Speaker Change: Going forward there, we do have some cornerstone investors and.

Speaker Change: Those agreements that we have are actually publicly filed.

Speaker Change: And they are some so.

Speaker Change: So that's available due to be looked at but essentially there is good.

Rowan Saunders: Essentially there's good commitment and confidence from them about the long term. That's why they invested into us and they're our long-term partners. They are very supportive of the plans that we've got. And I mean, with respect to, you know, any kind of speculation and questions, I mean, anything that is speculating could be distracting for us and given that any steps in this direction are actually not even legally permitted for the better part of another year or so. You know, once we're out of the protection period, we obviously can't control choices others may make. When we go back to the comment I just made, you know, we're running the business, making the investments to outperform the industry, create significant value, and we plan on doing this for years to come.

Speaker Change: <unk> and confidence from them about the long term that's why they invest it into us and there are long term partners. They are very supportive of the plans that we've got.

Speaker Change: And I mean with respect to any kind of speculation and questions. I mean anything that is that it could be distracting for us.

Speaker Change: That any steps in this direction are actually not even legally permitted for the better part of another year or so.

Speaker Change: Once we're out of the protection period, we obviously can't control choices, they make but when we go back to the comment I just made yes, we're running the business, making the investments to outperform the industry create significant value and we plan on doing this for years to come. So so that's really what else our focus is and we believe that our.

Rowan Saunders: That's really what our focus is, and we believe that our cornerstone investors are very supportive of that plan.

Speaker Change: Cornerstone investors are are very supportive of that plant.

Mario Mendonca: Okay. Sort of unrelated but somewhat related question is, when the company demutualized, it was very clear what the objective was to growth or acquisition. That's what the stock was for. That's what the continuance was for. Nothing's really happened on the carrier front. How do you feel today? Are you any closer to getting a deal done today than you were, say, two years ago?

Speaker Change: Okay.

Speaker Change: Sort of unrelated but somewhat related question is.

Speaker Change: While the company to mutualize their was very clear what the objective was to grow through acquisition and that's what the stock was for that's what the Continuances four but nothing has really happened on the carrier front. How do you feel today are you any closer to getting a deal done today than you were say two years ago.

Speaker Change: Yeah.

Rowan Saunders: Yeah. I mean, Mario, you know, all we could kind of reiterate there is that, you know, number one, we think the environment is moving towards one where there will be more transactions done. You know, we had this very unusual phase over the last couple of years with COVID and then, you know, as we had that inflationary period out of COVID. I think the fundamentals of you need size, you need scale, you've got to deliver for your brokers, you've got to have the technology in place to outperform. All of that, you know, creates, I think a marketplace that leads us down the consolidation, you know, path. You know, do I think that, you know, 2025 is gonna be more conducive than 2024? Yes, I do. I think 2024 was a bit more than 2023.

Speaker Change: I mean, I think Mary you know.

Speaker Change: All we could kind of reiterate there is that.

Speaker Change: Number one we think the environment is moving towards one where there will be more transactions that we had this very unusual phase over the last couple of years with Covid.

Speaker Change: We.

Speaker Change: Is it inflationary periods outside of out of Covid, but I think the fundamentals of you need size you need scale you have got to deliver field brokers, you've got to have the technology in place to outperform all of that creates.

Rowan Saunders: All of that, you know, creates, I think a marketplace that leads us down the consolidation, you know, path. You know, do I think that, you know, 2025 is gonna be more conducive than 2024? Yes, I do. I think 2024 was a bit more than 2023.

Speaker Change: I think a marketplace that leads us down the consolidation path. So do I think that you know <unk>.

Speaker Change: <unk> 25 is going to be more conducive in 'twenty four yes, I do and I think 24 was a bit more than 23, obviously.

Rowan Saunders: Obviously, you know, time will tell and, you know, that's a priority for us. In the meantime, you know, we're very pleased with our significant ability to keep generating significant amounts of capital. I mean, I think in the comments we started with, we've already deployed CAD 1 billion of capital over the last, you know, few years that we've been public, and we built even more excess capital. You know, our story was always we're a capital deployment story and a growth story, and we still believe that.

Speaker Change: Time will tell.

Speaker Change: That is a priority for us.

Speaker Change: In the meantime, we're very pleased with our significant ability to keep generating significant amounts of capital I mean, I think in the comments, we started with we've already deployed a $1 billion of capital over the last few years that we've been public and we booked even more excess excess capital. So you know.

Our story was always where our capital deployment.

Speaker Change: <unk> story, and our growth story, and we still we still believe that.

Speaker Change: Yes.

Mario Mendonca: Thanks for your insight. Appreciate it.

Francis: Thanks, Francis I appreciate it.

Speaker Change: Okay.

Speaker Change: And then if you would like to ask a question. Please press Star then the number one on your telephone keypad.

Operator: Again, if you would like to ask a question, please press star then the number one on your telephone keypad. Our next question comes from the line of Paul Holden from CIBC. Your line is open.

Speaker Change: Okay.

Speaker Change: Our next question comes from the line of Paul Holden from CIBC. Your line is open.

Paul Holden: Yeah. Thank you. Just a couple questions for you. First one, with respect to personal property and exiting higher peril risk, how far along would you say you are in that process?

Paul Holden: Yes. Thank you just a couple of questions for you first one.

Paul Holden: With respect to personal property and exiting higher apparel risk how far along would you say are you are in that in that process.

Paul: Okay. Thanks for your question, it's Paul here.

Paul MacDonald: No, thanks for your questions, Paul, here. We are significantly along the way of optimizing our portfolio. Of course, that changes as we gain portfolios through portfolio acquisitions or rollover activities. You may recall, we have very significant one in 2023, it takes a while to work through that portfolio. As we continue to add more portfolios, we'll continue to optimize as we go. We're well-positioned. I think our results show that we're well-positioned to address the issues in the marketplace. We're certainly looking at it on a peril by peril basis, so we're very focused on the differing needs of wildfire exposure versus flood exposure, for example. We're gonna continue focusing on that by upgrading our analytics capabilities, by adding more modeling to that.

Paul: We are significantly along the way of <unk>.

Paul: Optimizing our portfolio of course that changes as we gain portfolios through portfolio acquisitions or rollover activities and so you may recall, we have a very significant one in 2023 and so it takes a while to work through that portfolio.

Paul: So as we continue to add more portfolios will continue to optimize as we go but we're well positioned I think our results show that we're well positioned to address the issues in the marketplace. We're certainly looking at it on apparel by apparel basis. So we're very focused on the different needs of wildfire exposure versus flood exposure for example.

Paul: And we're going to continue focusing on that.

By upgrading our our analytics capabilities by adding more.

Paul: Yes.

Paul: Modeling that.

Paul MacDonald: These models used to be updated every few years, and we're finding now that even once a year is likely insufficient to keep pace with the changing climate conditions. We're comfortable where we are right now. We have taken most of our growth last year's AWPR rate growth because we've been systematically removing volatile risks from the bottom of the portfolio and replacing it with high quality, less volatile risks at the top. Then moving forward, we feel that we can start growing unit growth year over year, quarter over quarter. Of course, we'll keep evaluating based upon what happens in the marketplace, but we look to be in a good place to gain some unit growth moving forward.

Paul: These models used to be updated every few years and we're finding now that even once a year is likely insufficient to keep pace with the changing climate conditions. So we.

Paul: We are comfortable where we are right now we have taken most of our.

Paul: Gross last year, AWP or rate growth, because we have been systematically.

Paul: Systematically removing volatile risks from the bottom of the portfolio and replacing it with high quality less volatile risks at the top and then moving forward, we feel that we can start growing unit growth.

Paul: Year over year or quarter over quarter of course, we will keep evaluating based upon what happens in the marketplace, but but we'd look to be in a good place to to gain some unit growth moving forward.

Speaker Change: Okay. So it sounds like obviously, then youre heading in an environment, where premium growth sort of lagged rate increases because they were women really giving up some units and now that's actually flipping the other way around as we head into 2025.

Paul Holden: Okay. It sounds like obviously then you're heading an environment where premium growth sort of lagged rate increases 'cause you're willingly giving up some units, and now that's actually flipping the other way around as we head into 2025.

Paul: It was a bit it is.

Paul MacDonald: It was a bit, it's a bit of both. We were taking unit and rate for some time, but as we started seeing the impacts of climate change, industry-wide, and particularly in our jurisdictions in Canada, we were, as I mentioned, about a year ago, very focused and prudent on making sure that we were avoiding unnecessary loss. Then even throughout the year, halfway through the year, when the catastrophes really started impacting our portfolio, our systems and capabilities allowed us to respond very quickly, and take additional action ahead of the market to help prune volatility out of the portfolio. We're very pleased with our ability to respond to this.

Paul: Bit of both.

Paul: We're taking unit and rate for some time, but as we started seeing that.

Paul: The impacts of climate change industry widened, particularly in our jurisdictions in Canada. We were as I mentioned about a year ago, we were very focused and prudent on making sure that we were avoiding unnecessary loss and then even throughout the year halfway through the year when the catastrophes really started impacting our portfolio.

Paul: Our systems and capabilities allowed us to respond very very quickly.

Paul: And take additional action ahead of the market to help through volatility out of the portfolio. So again, we're very pleased with our ability to respond to this.

Paul MacDonald: I would again highlight, despite CAD 9 billion worth of cat losses for the industry, we're very pleased with the way the year came in for us.

Paul: Again highlight despite $9 billion worth of our cat losses for the industry.

Paul: We're very pleased with the way the year came in for Us and.

Rowan Saunders: Paul, I think, you know, we feel good about this line of business where we're at now. Number one, the market is firm to hard, and there's strong pricing power that's going forward. You've got pricing power, you've got indexation that's moving up. The team has found opportunities. When you look at that, I think we should be expecting more unit count growth along with strong pricing. That bodes well for us. That's also one of the reasons why we've improved our guidance on personal property from mid-90s to low-90s. We like this business.

Paul: And Paul So I think good about this line of business, where we were at now.

Paul: Number one the market is firm to hoard Ed.

Paul: Strong pricing power going forward, so you've got pricing power you've got indexation, that's moving up the team has found opportunities and so when you look at that I think we should be expecting more unit count growth along with strong pricing.

Paul: As well for us and Thats also one of the reasons why we've improved our guidance on personal property from mid <unk> to low ninety's. So we like this business.

Paul Holden: Yeah, I guess where I'm trying to get at with this is, my understanding is pricing is probably going up somewhere between 10 to 15 percent, so call it low double digits. Obviously just trying to figure out how we should model premium growth for Definity next year. Is it gonna be higher than that, lower than that, kinda like it was, but sounds like somewhat higher maybe than let's just call it 10 percent.

Paul: And I guess, what I'm trying to get at with this is my understanding if pricing is probably going up somewhere between 10% to 15% so call. It low double digits and I'll say just trying to figure out how we should model premium growth for our first affinity next year as it can be.

Paul: Higher than that lower than that kind of like it was but it sounds like somewhat somewhat higher maybe than than let's call. It.

Paul: 10%.

Paul MacDonald: Yeah. We're high single digits is what we're targeting. Partially that's because we're in a strong starting position, so we don't necessarily have to take as much premium as some of our competitors. That's the focus. Then couple that with what I mentioned earlier about around our segmentation. What it allows us to do is get far more granular, and therefore we wouldn't be pushing as much rate through on the very high quality business that we're targeting, and we push a little bit more rate through on the more volatile business. But of course, you don't necessarily gain all that. That, when you blend that out, it ends up being more of a high single digit rate need for our portfolio. That's what you can take moving forward.

Paul: Yeah, we were high single digits. This is what we're targeting and partially that's because we are in a strong starting position. So we don't necessarily have to take as much premium some of our competitors.

Paul: So that's the focus and then couple that with what I mentioned earlier about around our segmentation. So what it allows us to do is get far more granular and therefore, we wouldn't be pushing as much freight true on the very high quality business that we're targeting and we pushed a little bit more right through on the more volatile business, but of course, you don't you don't.

Paul: Again all of that so.

Paul: When you blend that out it ends up being more of a high single digit rate need for for our portfolio. So that's what you can take moving forward, but again things.

Paul MacDonald: Again, things we will adjust as the case requires us to.

Paul: We will just as the case requires us to.

Paul Holden: Okay. Got it. One more question from me. Maybe on commercial lines. We have seen some softening of the market, if you will, or at least less favorable pricing conditions. Maybe just sort of talk about what you're seeing in the market, if you're having to change or alter growth ambitions at all, if you're willing to still, you know, grab market share, but maybe it's coming at a little bit lower margin than previously. Maybe just again, walk us through those competitive dynamics.

Paul: Okay got it one.

Speaker Change: One more question then for me maybe on non commercial lines.

Speaker Change: We have seen some.

Speaker Change: Softening of the market, if you will or at least less favorable.

Speaker Change: Pricing conditions, maybe you just sort of talk about what youre seeing in the market.

Speaker Change: Fear of having to change or alter growth ambitions at all.

Speaker Change: We're willing to sell.

Speaker Change: Grab market share, but maybe it's coming in a little bit of a lower margin than previously.

Speaker Change: Walk us through those competitive dynamics.

Speaker Change: Sure.

Speaker Change: Yeah. Thank you Paul this is Bobby.

Fabian Richenberger: Yeah. Thank you, Paul. This is Fabi Richenberger answering your question. Big picture is that we're really pleased with the performance that our commercial business has achieved last year. As you've seen through our disclosures, we grew by 13%, which is a market-leading number, and we posted a very strong combined ratio of 89%. Overall, very confident in our capabilities, very confident in our run rate, and we still do like the outlook for commercial insurance, despite the fact that you mentioned that some segments have become more competitive over the last two or three quarters. Large account business, large fleet business.

Speaker Change: Answering your question. So big picture is that feel really pleased with the performance that the commercial business and achieved last year.

Speaker Change: As you've seen as well just thoughts as we grew by 13%, which is a market leading number and we posted a very strong combined ratio of 89%. So all in all very confident in our capabilities, but at constant run rate.

Speaker Change: We still do the outlook you still do like the outlook for commercial insurance.

Speaker Change: The fact that you mentioned that some segments have been coming in more competitive loss that was weak for us.

Speaker Change: Lots of confidence about the business.

Fabian Richenberger: Would be a couple of examples of that. The confidence that we have is a function of the team that we have in place, our operational capabilities, our ongoing capabilities, and really understanding the underlying growth trends, literally down to an individual policy level. What this means is that we are confident that we continue to cover the loss trends that we have in our portfolio. If you look at our Q4 disclosures, we grew by 10.7%, and about half of the number is due to rates and inflation adjustments. That does cover the loss trends that we have in our portfolio, and that gives us confidence that we can sustain our guidance of combined ratios in the low 90s.

Speaker Change: A couple of examples of that.

Speaker Change: The confidence that we have is a function of the team that just took place a little place still capabilities.

Speaker Change: And really understanding the underlying loss trends literally down to the individual policy level and what this means is that that you're confident that you continue to cover the loss trends that we have in our portfolio. If you look at our Q4.

Speaker Change: We grew by 10, 7% and about half of that number is due to rate and.

Speaker Change: Somehow spin and again that does cover the loss trends that you have seen in our portfolio and that gives us content that we can sustain our guidance of combined basis in the low nineties.

Fabian Richenberger: To go a little bit deeper, to answer your question more specifically, in that large account segment, we have seen more competition, more foreign capacity coming to Canada as well. What really helps us is that our portfolio, which is now at CAD 1.4 billion, is skewed to the lower end of commercial exposures and premium bands. About 85% of our portfolio is in that lower premium band of below CAD 100,000, and that allows us to optimize rates and retention quite effectively in that part of our business. We have a strong digital and service propositions as well, which is mitigating the impact of price very effective as well. Overall, the rates that we're getting across the portfolio is still in the mid single digit range.

Speaker Change: To go deeper to answer your question more specifically in the large account segment.

Speaker Change: Segment, we have seen more competition more foreign capacity come into kind of a follow up what's really helps us is that our portfolio, which is now at $1 4 billion skews to the lower end commercial exposures on premium bonds about 85% of our portfolio is in that lower premium brand of below 100000 and then.

Speaker Change: Allows us to optimize weight and retention are quite effectively in that part of our business do you have any stone digital and southern compensations as well and she is mitigating the impact of price.

Speaker Change: So overall.

Speaker Change: That you are getting across the portfolio is still in the mid single digit range.

Fabian Richenberger: We are comfortable with the outlook for commercial. We have retention rates in the mid to high eighties, which we are comfortable with as well. In line with Phil's comments up front, we do expect that we will be able to grow commercial insurance at twice the industry rate, growth rate, which we expect to come in around 5%. We expect to be able to grow commercial insurance in that 10% range. Based on all the capabilities that we have, we feel that we can drive that level of growth without compromising on our margin position.

Speaker Change: Yep.

Speaker Change: The outlook for commercial and we have every tends to me in the mid to high <unk> and mature comps as well.

Speaker Change: In line with I feel his comments upfront, we do expect that you're going to be able to grow our promotion Sean.

Speaker Change: Right.

Speaker Change: We expect to come in around 5%, so we expect to be able to grow.

Speaker Change: Essential ones in that 10% range and based on all the key wins that you have you feel that you can drive that level of growth without compromising without Martin Martin position.

Paul Holden: Okay, that's great. Helpful. I'll leave it there. Thank you.

Okay. Okay helpful. I'll leave it there thank you.

Speaker Change: Our next question comes from the line of James <unk> from National Bank Financial Your line is open.

Operator: Our next question comes from the line of Jaeme Gloyn from National Bank Financial. Your line is open.

James: Yes. Thanks.

Jaeme Gloyn: Yeah, thanks. First question is on the sub 95% combined ratio guide. So we did 94.5% in 2024, and if I take the cat guidance of 4.5%, that, you know, versus the, we'll say, 6.5% in 2024, there's two points of upside on the combined ratio from 2024, everything else being equal. You did say, Phil, you said half a point was just the definitional change, so I get that. But where else could we see some drag on the combined ratio where this ends up kind of at a 94 or 95 again next year? Is it expense ratio ticking a bit higher with a stronger year? Is it PYD maybe slowing down a little bit?

James: First question is on the sub 95% combined ratio guide. So we did 94, 5% in 2024, and if I take the cat guidance of four 5% versus the six in let's say second half percent in 2024, there's two points of upside on.

Speaker Change: On the combined ratio from 2020 for everything else being equal you did say Phil you said half a point was just a definitional change so I get that but where else could we see some drag on the combined ratio where this ends up kind of at a 94 five again next year is it expense ratio ticking a bit higher with it.

Speaker Change: Stronger year is it <unk>, maybe slowing down a little bit like where where do we see some drag potential.

Jaeme Gloyn: Like where do we see some drag potential?

Speaker Change: And thanks, Jamie I would say, yes, you have spotted the.

Philip Mather: Yeah, thanks, Jaeme. I would say, yes, you've spotted the 4.5 versus 5 classification piece, which is more definitional. Don't forget, obviously, we've taken a lot of rates in recent years to support the overall performance of the business. As Paul has said, we've done a really good job kind of on that cat management side. The one piece I'd call out is the commission ratio is low right now because of contingent profit commissions. The offsets of the, you know, cat losses being 2 points above the historic expectations is that that has suppressed the contingent profit commission levels in the last couple of years. We'd normally see or expect a commission ratio nearer to kind of 15%, versus what we're running at right now.

Fabian Richenberger: Yeah, thanks, Jaeme. I would say, yes, you've spotted the 4.5 versus 5 classification piece, which is more definitional. Don't forget, obviously, we've taken a lot of rates in recent years to support the overall performance of the business. As Paul has said, we've done a really good job kind of on that cat management side. The one piece I'd call out is the commission ratio is low right now because of contingent profit commissions. The offsets of the, you know, cat losses being 2 points above the historic expectations is that that has suppressed the contingent profit commission levels in the last couple of years. We'd normally see or expect a commission ratio nearer to kind of 15%, versus what we're running at right now.

Speaker Change: Florida offices, five classification piece, which is more of a definitional.

Speaker Change: But don't forget obviously, we've taken a lot of rates in recent years to support the overall business and as Paul has said we've done a really good job kind of on the account management side, the one piece I'd call out.

Speaker Change: Is the commission ratio is low right now because of contingent profit commissions. So the offsets of say cat losses being two points above the historic expectations is that that buyer has suppressed the contingent profit commission levels in the last couple of years than we'd normally see or.

Speaker Change: Back to the commission ratio nearer to kind of 15%.

Speaker Change: This is what we're running at right now so you got to remember that we're not paying out as much as a result of that now on the flip side, though you'll see the operating expense ratio is moving really well. So one of the levers that we've been pulling is it's very much a focus on that level, we're just below 12%.

Fabian Richenberger: You've got to remember that we're not paying out as much as a result of that. Now, on the flip side, though, you'll see the operating expense ratio is moving really well. One of the levers that we've been pulling is very much a focus on that level. We're just below 12%, for the full year this year. We were over 13% a couple of years ago. We're aiming to bring that back down to more like the 11.5% range. You've got some puts and takes there that would offset. I think our ultimate goal is to hover the expense ratio around 30%, but the quality or the mix we'd like there is about half of it is in commission ratios, and the rest is Opex and premium taxes.

Speaker Change: Yes.

Speaker Change: Full year. This year, we were over 13% a couple of years ago, and we're aiming to bring that back down to more like 11, 5% range. So you've got some puts and takes there that would offset I think our ultimate goal is to cover the expense ratio around 30%, but the quality of the mix, we'd like there is about <unk>.

Speaker Change: Half of it is in commission ratios and the rest is opex and premium taxes. So I think you've got some you've got some puts and takes around that level.

Fabian Richenberger: I think you've got some puts and takes around that level. Certainly what we'd be looking for is continued kind of iterative improvement, both in terms of the operating ROE, the drivers behind that, and the, you know, the overall combined ratio. We feel pretty confident going in there, and that's why we've moved that guidance down from the mid-90s to sub-95 core.

Speaker Change: What we'd be looking for is continued kind of at your tip improvements.

Speaker Change: Both in terms of the operating ROE the drivers behind that.

Speaker Change: On the you know the overall combined.

Speaker Change: Combined ratio, so we feel pretty confident going in there and that's why we've moved that guidance down from the mid Ninety's to sub 95 call.

Speaker Change: Yes.

Jaeme Gloyn: My takeaway from that is, like, sub-95, like, a low 90s is not an, like, an aggressive scenario to see unfold, assuming a normalized cat year next year.

Speaker Change: Takeaway from that is like sub 95 like <unk> like <unk>.

Speaker Change: Low ninety's is not like.

Speaker Change: And aggressive.

Speaker Change: Scenario to see unfold, assuming a normalized cat year next year.

Speaker Change: Yes, I mean, certainly we're targeting to continue to improve our you know we've seen on all the operating levers that we've been pulling but making good progress you saw Sony had a good quarter and that positions us well, what we're aiming for.

Philip Mather: Yeah. I mean, certainly we're targeting to continue to improve. You know, we've seen on all the operating levers that we've been pulling, we're making good progress. You saw Sonnet had a good quarter in that position as well. We're aiming for, you know, modest profitability within that business for next year. You know, if you look at the individual lines, we think we'll be sub 95 on property and in the low 90s on commercial lines. You add it all together, I think we're confident we're continuing to make good progress. You've got to remember, we've got the balance of, you know, the auto book and Sonnet aspect within that too. Continued iterative progress is our goal, and that's reflected in our guidance to a lower level of core for sure.

Speaker Change: Modest profitability within that business for next year.

Speaker Change: And if you look at the individual lines, we think will be sub 95 on property and the low ninety's on commercial lines. So you add it all together I think we're confident we'll continue to make good progress, but you've got to remember we've got the balance of the <unk>.

Speaker Change: Also book and so on.

Speaker Change: Aspects within not too so.

And you'd interesting progress is our goal and that's reflected in our guidance to a lower level of cost for sure.

Jaeme Gloyn: Okay, great. Then last, just a quick thought on the dividend strategy going forward. Just to refresh my memory, if it's targeting a certain payout ratio or grow with earnings, obviously a nice bump this year. Just wanted to get a little perspective on that again.

Speaker Change: Okay, Great and then last just a quick thought on the on the dividend.

Speaker Change: Strategy going forward, just refresh my memory, if it's targeting a certain payout ratio or grow with earnings.

Speaker Change: Obviously, a nice bump this.

Speaker Change: Sure just wanted to get a little perspective on that again.

Speaker Change: Yeah. So obviously, we're very pleased with the progress that we've made since the IPO. The cumulative increase now over three year periods as 50%. So obviously in each of the three years since.

Philip Mather: Yeah. We're very pleased with the progress that we've made since the IPO. The cumulative increase now over the three-year period is 50%. Obviously, in each of the three years since we've gone public, we've had a double-digit increase growing to a pretty sizable increase right now. In terms of how we look at it, we don't have an explicit kind of guidance range we look at. We do look at a number of factors. For sure, the operational outlook is one of those, and obviously, we've got a lot of confidence that we're continuing to improve the performance of the company. You know, we're continuing to drive that operating ROE upwards. That is definitely, you know, influencing our position.

Speaker Change: We've gone public we've had a double digit increase grow into a pretty sizeable increase right now.

Speaker Change: In terms of how we look at it we don't have an explicit kind of guidance range. We look at we do look at a number of factors to assure the operational outlook is one of those and obviously, we've got a lot of confidence that will continue into improve the performance of the company.

Speaker Change: We're continuing to drive that operates in a row.

Speaker Change: And so that is definitely.

Speaker Change: Influencing our position we know the capital generative capacity of the company is very strong.

Philip Mather: We know the capital generative capacity of the company is very strong. We do look at the payout ratio, the operating payout ratio. I'd say, you know, we're very comfortable with the increase we've made because we still feel we're probably near the lower end of that comfortable kind of operating payout range. We have been probably around 25% since we IPO'd. We still feel we're at a, you know, a low comfort end there. Very pleased with the progress that we've made. It remains an important part of our capital deployment priorities and really is a strong reflection of the positive outlook we have going forward.

Speaker Change: And we do look at the payout ratio the operating payout ratio and I'd I'd say.

Speaker Change: Very comfortable with the increase we've made because we still feel we're probably near the lower end of that comfortable kind of operating payout range can be upbeat probably around 25% since we IPO Ed we still feel we're at the low income per tender. So very pleased with the progress that we've made it remains an important part of our capital.

Speaker Change: Deployment priorities and really is a strong reflection of the positive outlook, we have going forward.

Speaker Change: Yeah.

Jaeme Gloyn: Yeah. I think it's

Speaker Change: Yes. Thank you.

Dennis Westfall: It is. The board considers this. I mean, one of the big drivers, you know, Jaeme, is just our confidence in the earnings growth for the business in the years ahead.

Rowan Saunders: It is. The board considers this. I mean, one of the big drivers, you know, Jaeme, is just our confidence in the earnings growth for the business in the years ahead.

Speaker Change: Is.

Speaker Change: The board considers this I mean, one of the Big drivers you know Jamie it's just our confidence in the earnings.

Speaker Change: Earnings growth for the business as a hedge.

Speaker Change: Yeah.

Speaker Change: Understood. Thank you.

Jaeme Gloyn: Understood. Thank you.

Speaker Change: Yes.

Speaker Change: And then if you would like to ask a question. Please press Star then the number one on your telephone keypad.

Operator: Again, if you would like to ask a question, please press star then the number one on your telephone keypad. There are no questions at this time. I would now like to turn the conference back to Mr. Dennis Westfall. Please go ahead.

Speaker Change: Yeah.

Speaker Change: Yes.

Speaker Change: Okay.

Dennis Westphal: There are no question at this time I would now like to turn the conference back to Mr. Dennis <unk>. Please go ahead.

Dennis Westphal: Thank you everyone for participating today and the webcast will be archived on our website for one year a telephone replay will be available at two P. M. Today until February 20, <unk> and a transcript will be made available on our website. Please note that our first quarter results for 2025 will be released on May eight.

Dennis Westfall: Thank you everyone for participating today. The webcast will be archived on our website for 1 year. A telephone replay will be available at 2:00PM today until 21 February 2025, and a transcript will be made available on our website. Please note that our Q1 results for 2025 will be released on 8 May 2025. That concludes our conference call. Thank you and have a great day.

Dennis Westphal: Concludes our conference call. Thank you and have a great day.

Dennis Westphal: Okay.

Dennis Westphal: Thank you. This concludes today's conference. Thank you for participating you may now disconnect.

Operator: Thank you. This concludes today's conference. Thank you for participating. You may now disconnect.

Dennis Westphal: Yeah.

Dennis Westphal: Okay.

Q4 2024 Definity Financial Corp Earnings Call

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