Q4 2024 Portman Ridge Finance Corp Earnings Call
Speaker Change: Welcome to Portman Ridge Finance Corporation's fourth quarter in Fulure and the December 31, 2024 earnings conference call. An earnings press release was distributed yesterday March 13, 2025, after the close of the market.
Speaker Change: A copy of the release along with an earnings presentation is available on the company's website at www.portmanbridge.com in the Investor Relations section and should be reviewed in the conjunction with the company's 410K file yesterday with the SEC As a reminder, this conference call is being recorded for your play purposes
Speaker Change: Please note that today's conference call may contain forward-looking statements which are not guarantees of future performance or results and involve a number of brief and uncertainties.
Speaker Change: Actual results made it prematurely from those in the forward-looking statements as a result of the number and factors, including those described in the company's filings with the SEC.
Speaker Change: Portman Ridge Finance Corporation assumes an obligation to update any such forward-looking statements and let's record by law.
Ted Goldthorpe: Speaking on today's call, we'll be Ted Goldthorpe, Chief Executive Officer, President and Director of Portman Ridge Finance Corporation, Brandon Satoren, Chief Financial Officer, and Patrick Schafer, Chief Investment Officer.
Speaker Change: With that, I would not like to turn the call over to Ted Goldthorpe, Chief Executive Officer,
Speaker Change: Good morning and welcome to our fourth quarter and full year 2024 earnings call. I'm joined today by our Chief Financial Officer, Brandon Satoren and our Chief Investment Officer, Patrick Schafer.
Speaker Change: Following my opening remarks on the company's performance and activities during the fourth quarter, Patrick will provide commentary on our investment portfolio and our markets and brand new will discuss our operating results and financial condition in greater detail
Speaker Change: We will continue to focus on our underperforming credits and our remain confident in our ability to derive the best outcome for shareholders and most importantly in the credit quality of the portfolio overall.
Speaker Change: As far as the combination with Logan Ridge is concerned, the next critical step towards completion is the special meeting of shareholders where investors will be asked to approve the transaction which is scheduled once which will be scheduled once the N14 is declared effective by the SEC.
Speaker Change: This transformative transaction marks a significant milestone in our long-term growth strategy and underscores our commitment to finding creative ways to continue to grow the company's balance sheet and generate shareholder value.
Speaker Change: We believe the combination of these two BDCs create a stronger, more competitive combined company with increased scale, significant operational efficiencies and hence trading liquidity.
Speaker Change: Inviter shareholders devote for the merger when they receive the proxy card.
Speaker Change: Both Portman and Logan Board of Directors have unanimously recommended that shareholders vote for the merger. The proposed merger with Logan Ridge is a testament to the strategic actions we have taken to position Portman Ridge for long-term success.
Speaker Change: In support of this transaction, our external advisor, Sierra Crust, has agreed to wave up to $1.5 million of incentives over the next eight quarters following the merger's closing.
Speaker Change: During the year, we executed our discipline capital management strategy through prudent capital and portfolio management initiatives. I'm very pleased with the work we did on the right side of the balance sheet and substantial improvements we made to the company's debt capital structure.
Speaker Change: This is highlighted by the refinancing of the 2018 two secure notes in the amendment and extension of our JP Morgan Chase bank credit facility which we upsized in term note, which resulted in net spread savings of that we truly benefited fully in fourth quarter of 2024.
Speaker Change: Complementary to these efforts, we continue to strengthen our portfolio by reducing non-accrual investments from nine as of September 30th, 2024 to six as of December 31st, 2024, improving the overall asset quality.
Speaker Change: In light of both the benchmark rate environment, as well as the general market spread compression, Board of Directors has approved the modification of Portman's dividend policy to introduce regulatory, quarterly-based distribution and a quarterly supplemental distribution, which will approximately 50% of net investment income in excess of a quarterly-based distribution.
Speaker Change: The first quarter of 2025, the Board of Directors approved a base distribution of 47 cents per share and a supplemental cash distribution of 7 cents a share.
Speaker Change: Additionally, during the year, we continue to believe our stock remained undervalued and thus.
Speaker Change: The company repurchased 202,357 shares of its common stock, the open market under its renewed stock purchase program for an aggregate cost of approximately $3.8 million, which was
Speaker Change: Looking ahead, we are excited about the opportunities the proposed merger will create. Entering 2025, we anticipate being active in the market and net deploys of capital, which we anticipate will restore net investment income to more normalized levels.
Speaker Change: The healthy pipeline, fortified balance sheet, prudent investment strategy and experience management team remain confident in our ability to generate strong, risk-adjustive returns and drive long-term value for our shareholders With that, I will turn the call over to Patrick Schafer, our chief investment officer, for a review of our investment activity. [inaudible]
Thanks, Dad.
Patrick Schafer: Turning out of slide five of our presentation and the sensitivity of our earnings to interest rates. As of December 31st, 2024, approximately 90.1% of our debt security portfolio was floating rate with a spread peg to an interest rate index such as Sofort or Primary, which substantially all of these being linked to Sofort. Sofort
Patrick Schafer: As you can see from the chart, suffraids have declined in the past two quarters, impacting the current quarters net investment income.
Keeping down to side 10.
Patrick Schafer: of approximately $19.2 million. Of note, approximately $12 million of this was due to the repayment of critical nurse on the last day of the year. So it's going to year end.
Patrick Schafer: We have successfully deployed the critical nurse proceeds through add-on to multiple existing portfolio companies and investment in a new bar that is expected to close in the near term.
Patrick Schafer: Overall, yield on par value of new investments during the quarter was 11.4%, slightly above the yield of the overall portfolio at 11.3% on par value.
Patrick Schafer: Our best and portfolio at year end remained highly diversified. We ended the fourth quarter with a debt and best and portfolio when excluding our investments in seal of funds, equities and joint ventures, spread across 26 different industries with an average power balance of
Patrick Schafer: For Insider 11, in aggregate, we had six investments on autocroll status at the end of the fourth quarter of 2024, representing 1.7% and 3.4% of the company's investment portfolio at fair value and cost respectively.
Patrick Schafer: This compares to nine investments, anonymous status, as of September 30th, 2024, representing 1.6 and 4.5% of the company's investment portfolio at fair value and cost respectively.
Slide 12.
Patrick Schafer: Excluding our non-approval investments, we have an aggregate debt investment portfolio of $320.7 million at failed value, which represents a blended price of 90.7% of par value, and is 90.2% comprised of personally loans at par value.
Patrick Schafer: Assuming a power recovery, out of December 31, 2024 for values, bucket potential of $16.4 million of incremental net value, or a 16.4% increase to now.
Patrick Schafer: When applying an illustrative 10% fall rate and 70% recovery rate, our debt portfolio would generate an incremental $2.36 per share of NAV, or an 11.1% increase as it rotates.
Finally, turn to slide 13.
Patrick Schafer: If you aggregate the three portfolios acquired over the last three years, we have purchased a combined $435 million of investments and it realized approximately 85% of these investments and it combined realize an unrealized mark of 101% of fair value at the time of closing of those respective mergers [inaudible]
Patrick Schafer: As a Q4 2024, we have fully exited the acquired Oak Hill Portfolio and are down to a combined 27 million dollars of the acquired HCAP and initial KCAP portfolios.
Brandon Satoren: Thanks, Patrick, turning to our financial results for the quarter-ended December 31st, 2024.
Brandon Satoren: For the quarter ended December 31st, 2024, Portman generated 14.4 million of investment income, a 0.8 million decrease as compared to 15.2 million reported for the quarter ended September 30th, 2024.
Brandon Satoren: The quarter of a quarter decrease was primarily due to lower investment income due to net repayments and sales during the quarter of 19.2 million as well as decreases in base rates.
Brandon Satoren: For the quarter ended December 31, 2024, total expenses were $8.9 million, a $0.5 million decrease as compared to $9.4 million reported for the quarter ended September 30, 2024.
Brandon Satoren: The quarter-over-quarter decrease was primarily due to lower average debt outstanding during the quarter, as well as a full-quarters benefit of the 30-basis point reduction in spread on the JPMorgan Credit facility, which was effective August 20th, 2024.
Take a look.
Brandon Satoren: Accordingly, our net investment income for the fourth quarter of 2024 was $5.5 million or $0.60 per share. The decrease of $0.3 million or $0.3 per share from the prior quarter.
Brandon Satoren: Our net asset value as of December 31, 2024 was $178.5 million, representing a $9.5 million decrease as compared to the prior quarter net assets value of $108 million.
Brandon Satoren: On a per share basis, that asset value was $19.41 per share as of December 31, 2024, representing a 95% decrease per share as compared to 2036 in the prior quarter.
Brandon Satoren: The decline in ad was driven by a combination of under earning the distribution in Q4, the wind down of two of our JMP CLO investments and mark to market declines in a small handful of portfolio companies.
Brandon Satoren: As of December 31st, 2024 and September 30th, 2024, our gross leverage ratios 1.5 times and 1.3 times respectively, for the same period, our leverage ratio net of cash was 1.4 times and 1.3 times.
Brandon Satoren: 267.5 million of borrowings outstanding with a current weighted average contractual interest rate of 6.2%. This compares...
Brandon Satoren: to the same barrings outstanding as of the prior quarter, the weighted average contract
Ted Goldthorpe: The company finished a quarter with 40.5 million of available barring capacity under the senior secured revolving credit facility. With that, I will turn the call back over to Ted.
Thank you, Brandon.
Ted Goldthorpe: A lot of questions. I'd like to emphasize how excited we are about the opportunities that the proposed merger will create. Additionally, with the robust pipeline, prudent investment strategy and experienced management team, we believe we are well positioned to take advantage of the current market environment and will be able to deliver strong returns to our shareholders throughout 2025.
Ted Goldthorpe: Thank you once again to all of our shareholders for your ongoing support. This concludes our prepare remarks and I'll turn the call over for any questions.
Ted Goldthorpe: We will now begin the question and answer session. If you would like to ask a question during this time, simply press star followed by the number one on your telephone keypad. If you would like to withdraw your question, press star one again. At this time, we will pause from entirely to assemble our roster.
Speaker Change: And your first question comes from the line of Chris Nolan with Latinburg. Chris, please go ahead.
Chris Nolan: What was the generator of the realized loss in the quarter, please?
Chris Nolan: Yeah, it was primarily our former non-accrual investments in Robert Shaw and Palmer Roy, as well as the CLOs. Those were the biggest drivers.
Chris Nolan: Company called STG Logistics, that was not a non-acroll was also a contributor. However, most of those realized losses were previously reflected in our nav, about 10 million of the 10.8.
Speaker Change: and how much he repurchases out his nav in the quarter.
Speaker Change: So it was a creative, it was about 40 basis points in the change in that per share portfolio
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Hello, Mom.
Speaker Change: I guess going forward, given the lower base rates and the spread compression,
Where are you guys thinking in terms of controlling costs?
Speaker Change: What sort of levers are you thinking about in terms of how to improve returns?
And that's it for me. Thanks.
Speaker Change: Good question. So obviously, you know, big driver of the low-important merger is cost savings. So obviously less board fees, less audit fees, less tax, all that kind of stuff. So that's actually a really low-hanging fruit from us.
Speaker Change: And then number two is obviously as we grow, we're spreading, you know, our various...
Speaker Change: Back office and financial functions over a larger base which will lead to lower per share admin costs. So I think with a couple of things we're hoping to do over the next six to nine months, you should see continued cost savings.
Speaker Change: And they don't think I'd highlight as obviously as part of this low-important merger, we're waving some incentives so that should obviously help with, you know, run rate and III.
Eric Zwick: And your next question comes from the line of Eric Svek with Lucid Capital Markets. Eric, please go ahead.
Justin Markdown: Hi guys, good morning Justin Markdown for Eric today. It sounds like the pipeline is healthy, curious if you could.
Eric Zwick: Give us any detail on the current mix, new versus add-ons, and if you're seeing any better risk-adjustive return opportunities in any particular industries.
Feeling that the economy would be on better footing
Eric Zwick: And then ironically, you know, give me what I just said over the last over the last six weeks I would say a lot of our deal flow has been put on hold unsurprisingly. It's very very hard to buy companies in certain sectors. There's, um,
Eric Zwick: with, you know, some of the volatility around tariffs. I mean, the good news for us, and I don't want to give you too long on answer, but the good news for us is many sectors that we're focused on just are less.
Eric Zwick: Directly impacted by this. So we really have very little in the way of consumer exposure, very little way on the retail exposure. So we actually feel like we're relatively insulated from some of these potential risks directly now that is obviously indirect impact.
Eric Zwick: I would say our pipeline has actually picked up this last week and a half and so we've gone from, you know, what I'd call a mediocre pipeline to a less mediocre pipeline probably over the last 10 days.
Yeah, I just did add there, I'd say.
As a blanket statement, we would much rather… [inaudible]
Eric Zwick: providing incremental opportunities to our existing portfolio companies because their names that we've been in for a while, we understand the management teams, we understand the financial reporting, you know, there's, you know, less surprises. So in general, you know, I think we would always try and skew towards, you know, an incremental that you tend to be able to get a little bit stickier. [inaudible]
Eric Zwick: around, you know, a smaller commercial with your existing wonders, we're going out doing the whole new.
Eric Zwick: Facility, so again, ten down the margin, get a little bit better pricing and feel a lot better about about the diligence and sort of the core of the core of the portfolio company you're underwriting.
Eric Zwick: So again, as I alluded to in a little bit of my comments, at least so far through Q1, most of the investments we've had have been to existing portfolio companies as opposed to new borrowers. Again, just because it, you know, you tend to be able to feel better about the diligence process and underwriting those names.
Eric Zwick: Additional resolution opportunities for the companies that remain unknown to cruel today.
Speaker Change: Yeah, I just did to take the last one first. Again, we're kind of like continuously going through
Speaker Change: working closely with those portfolio companies to try and come to resolutions.
Speaker Change: Often times they take sort of twists and turns and take a while, so just...
A simple example of that is
Speaker Change: in the Gitronics, Pomeroy, Nowno Crules, you know, this ultimately there have been a transaction we are working on with the company for probably the better part of a year that finally came in the fruition in Q4 where...
We actually...
Speaker Change: acquired and merged in an additional company to gain scale, and at that time, it made sense to, you know, convert.
Speaker Change: in some amount of our debt into rein-stated debt that is lowly leverant accruing. And then the residual of our exposure, we took informer of equity in the pro-former company. So that ultimately just came to fruition in Q4, but that was a year of work behind the scenes to kind of try and have the come to fruition.
Speaker Change: So on Robert Schaun, STG, both simple examples, it's our similar cases, STG, there was a
Speaker Change: on the left side. That wasn't that wasn't a not a cruel. The Robert Schafer was that one was in a bankruptcy an immersion bankruptcy in Q4. So, you know, we got some amount of reinstated debt. There was no real napping back to that, but it finally kind of there was a final resolution of that name.
Okay, great. That's all for me to that. Thank you.
Speaker Change: And your next question comes from the line of Evans later with Slater Capital Management. Evan, please go ahead.
Speaker Change: Well, guys, they got the name wrong, but that's okay. It's Steve. I felt like it was pretty good that it was you, Steve. How are you? Hey, Steve.
Speaker Change: A couple of questions. Can you be a little more elaborative about the dividend policy, how you got there and how you went, you know,
What drove the restructuring of the Tividend Policy?
Speaker Change: Yeah, I'd say, I mean, listen, we've been pretty resistant to make a change in our dividend policy. I would say well over half the BDC's have gone in this direction. And I think that there's four or five more that announce this quarter.
Speaker Change: and so it seems to be where the industry is going.
Speaker Change: and so this base plus supplemental with all the volatility and short term rates and spreads means that you know all of us compare our base dividends and then whatever the overages is the overage so you know historically I mean I've said it probably I've been I historically have not liked special dividends. [inaudible]
Speaker Change: I would say it's where the industry is going. So in consultation with our board and when you look across the industry in the comp sheet, I mean this is kind of becoming the
Speaker Change: Norm across the industry. Yeah, and see if I can add on to that. We did a pretty extensive sort of benchmarking analysis of where all the other VDCs who have this kind of policy where they set base.
Speaker Change: How they to the extent that they guide, how they guide on the supplemental and so what we endeavor to do was strike a base rate that was on the higher end of the, let's say the comp set who uses the base plus supplemental and then generally speaking, not everyone guides to how they think about the supplemental but those that do guide to somewhere between 1575% of the overage going towards the supplemental.
Speaker Change: So that would be the more elaborate of answer of it was a full benchmarking of those that have done it, how they've done it, where those metrics are and tried to ensure as we have been historically that we're on the higher end of sort of our peers in terms of distributions. So that would be a full benchmarking of distributions.
Well, I mean, how did you arrive at the 47 cents base?
Speaker Change: You know, you're quarterly NII for quite a while, you know, going far back.
Speaker Change: Yeah, if you look at all of the BDCs that have a base post supplemental and you analyze their base.
Speaker Change: sort of the higher end of the 18, 19 or so BDCs that have this this structure. And as I said, on the supplemental again, what we were able to
Speaker Change: Again, a lot of folks don't actually give any guidance whatsoever, but those that do specify, or give somewhere around 50 to 75% of the overage in terms of their supplemental.
Speaker Change: Okay, so what was basically your return on NAV as your base?
Okay.
Speaker Change: We, you know, the whole industry has had a hard time deploying. You guys seem to, you haven't had a positive deployment in probably almost four quarters. Yeah.
Speaker Change: You're never, I don't have to tell you something you already know, I mean it's hard to generate an AI, if you're portfolio from 20% last year.
Speaker Change: Are you being too tight and or when, you know, what do you think about net deployments this quarter recognizing how, you know, how many changes have occurred in the political landscape?
Speaker Change: Yeah, I mean, it's a fair question. I mean, what I would say is obviously we're focused on good deployment versus deployment, and, you know, obviously spreads have tightened quite dramatically over the last.
Speaker Change: I think the way we think about is very simple, which is private activity, new capital activity is very muted. So you actually look at where deployment is happening, a lot of it is in refinancing and repricings and not in new deals. And so...
Speaker Change: As I mentioned earlier, Steve, we had a really big pipeline coming into this year, so we were kind of saving some dry powder for some of those deals and a number of those deals unsurprisingly to you have either be put on hold or are moving a little bit slower.
Speaker Change: So we feel pretty good about our deployment prospects this year.
Speaker Change: But obviously, this last six weeks is not being great for our deal pipeline.
Speaker Change: A little bit selfish of timing on some of the stuff where, you know, critical nurse, which was like a 12, 13 million dollar position, we got repaid on the last day of the quarter. So it's significantly skews our net deployments. We still would have been slightly under deployed for the quarter because we have a deal that's been working through the pipeline that it's still in the process of closing. But we do, you know, occasionally get get burned by that from a deploying perspective where, you know, a large, unexpected happens towards the end of the quarter. And can we, it takes, you know, a month.
of two months.
You know, for us to be able to find [inaudible]
Speaker Change: Attractive Credit Quality Portfolio Companies, but also meet a rate of return necessary to pay out and above market dividend rate, which we've historically been doing and tried to endeavor to do.
Speaker Change: So that's again, there are some lags around the timing, as I mentioned in my results. We've more than been deployed that 12 million where we sit today.
Speaker Change: And we look to kind of continue. We have a couple more things in the pipeline that hopefully will close in the next two weeks.
Ted Goldthorpe: So some of it is a little bit around timing but as Ted said, I think we have always tried to be a little bit more prudent on how we deploy capital and our strategy historically is to
Ted Goldthorpe: Trying to focus as much as we can on non-sponsor or founder back businesses, those tend to have more twists and turns along the way from term sheet to closing and a little bit more difficult to sort of time properly as opposed to if we want to just be in the sponsor deal flow, you can look at a lot of our peers who are in that business and their returns on assets are probably 9.5 to 10% versus 11.5%.
Ted Goldthorpe: but they have a lot easier time refilling the funnel because they can just lean into the next L-500 deal which is a little bit more difficult for us to lean into. So again, long when we're saying it's a very valid point, Steven, we try and do everything we can to minimize that but there do tend to be some timing impacts here or there.
Speaker Change: So, what do you view as, you know, was it wasn't any of you having declined?
like
Looking at a snapshot at December 31st [inaudible]
Speaker Change: I'm not sure, I'm not sure I'm asking the question in the White House. I know what you're asking. Is your question basically how much tribe powder do we have given our leverage?
Speaker Change: Yeah, I mean, I'll say it in a couple different, I'll give you a couple different, yeah, I don't have the exact number on top, I have seasides, I can only give you sort of how we think about it, but I would say the obvious thing would be the net deployments of $19 million is absolutely can be redeployed. The other thing I would say is
Speaker Change: Are NAV and the things that move our credit facility and the availability of their credit facility are two different things, as an example.
Speaker Change: Our SiloEquity has no impact on our ability to draw under the JP Morgan Facility because it's all sitting outside of the JP Morgan Facility. So, Mark-to-Market movements or realized losses in the SiloEquities have absolutely zero impact to our JP Morgan Facility. There's a number of assets that we have.
Speaker Change: that are just generally outside of them. Those don't have any movement, you know, candidly, like the way that...
Speaker Change: Our asset and collateral values in JP Morgan is not the same as how we reflect it on our balance sheet. So there's often times where we have something marked at 99 and it might only have the same.
Speaker Change: 97% credit in the JP facility because that's just how they do it or we have something marked at 92 and we have a 95% credit for it in the JP Morgan because that's just how that's just how they do it. So they're a little bit they're they're not entirely linked in terms of our actual nav and our bar and base availability under our facility. So they're not entirely linked in terms of our actual nav and base availability under our facility.
And do I understand correctly that you?
Speaker Change: on round, closed out, did something to some of the JMP CLOs.
Yeah, we um...
Speaker Change: In, I think it would have been late, maybe late October or mid-November.
We actually, um,
Arrgh!
Speaker Change: started the process to unwind those vehicles, you know, by issuing B-Wix. It takes a long time to settle.
Speaker Change: So we still have the positions on our balance sheet at the end of the year from an SOI perspective, but we have flowed out those trades, we have sold and priced the collateral. So those should be off our SOI in Q1 and I don't believe they should have any impact to nav.
Speaker Change: in Q1, in terms of how they get unwound. But yeah, it just tends to take a couple of months between when you actually go and sell the assets, and then they all need to get assigned and cash coming the door and pay down the liability and then get the residual. So, Brandon might be able to say whether they actually came into the door as of where we sit today, but it's a little bit of a process.
Speaker Change: Yeah, Steve, they call it those if those were outside the credit agreement does cleaning those up?
therefore create incremental capacity beef for war guests.
Speaker Change: You could take those that let's let you pick a random number you could take
Speaker Change: $5 million and contributing to the facility and that would give you probably something in the area of like $8 million or $9 million of investing capacity. Again, so two, we tend to have some cash on our balance sheet. We could always contribute, you know, some million dollars from our balance sheet into the JP facility, get incremental capacity to invest.
Speaker Change: So yes, that would give us incremental investing capacity as we get back the cash.
Okay, thanks for watching.
Artypti.
Speaker Change: And your next question comes from the line of Paul Johnson with KBW, Paul, let's go ahead.
Paul Johnson: Yeah, good morning. Thanks for taking the questions. Um, maybe just, you know, in terms of the watch list, you know, your internal watch list investments, this quarter, um, was there any, I mean, pretty flat quarter quarter, but is there any, you know, internally pages there any new investments added in the like.
Paul Johnson: We really haven't had a lot of negative credit surprises over the last 12 months so the number of the names that we have highlighted this quarter has been challenging and been challenging for a while and a lot of them are not inherited physicians but legacy physicians that we bought in other vehicles.
Paul Johnson: So, I don't think we've seen a lot of negative credit migration. Now, again, with all the stuff going on now...
Paul Johnson: You know, we'll see because of a lot of that's trailing, but generally speaking, our companies are...
Paul Johnson: You know, 80% of our companies are growing and, you know, we continue to be pretty healthy on a fixed charge coverage ratio.
Speaker Change: Yeah, I'd say, again, I'd say there's probably always one or two things that we're watching that aren't, you know, quote unquote, underperforming, you know, the way this is done is based on our rating systems.
Speaker Change: You don't want through five, so names normally come on at a two which is like regular way and if there's things that we're watching you know that's a three and we start to unperforming they get moved to a four or a five which is you know we expect to loss.
Speaker Change: So, yeah, we always have things fluctuate between two and three in terms of, you know, things that are from a financial perspective, underperforming, but that's not like, you know, based on a rating system is, hey, they had a down quarter or two, there was some weather, we need to kind of stay a little bit more on top of something. So, those names fluctuate a little bit from two to three, in a given, um,
Speaker Change: time period. As Ted said, you know, of course, in 2024, I'd say it was generally characterized by the stuff that had been struggling has kind of, you know, continued.
to model along. And so, again, with the...
Speaker Change: The tariffs change week by week and sometimes they're inactive sometimes they're not and sometimes it changes to you know goods and services and all that so it's a it's like a really puff. [inaudible]
Speaker Change: in terms of identifying that. So we're trying to stay on top of it. But again, I would say, you know, we have names that we've kind of continued to be watching, and it sets out. We have any wild surprises of the course of last year.
Thanks for that. And then.
Speaker Change: Could you just give us a sense of maybe how much of the portfolio is non-sponsored at this point?
Um...
Speaker Change: Let us get back to you. I know it's like a platform we are probably like
Speaker Change: close to 50-50 in terms of sponsor, non-sponsor. I would say our BDCs tend to be a little bit more way to sponsor, just because I know I give the previous comments to Steve, but the reality is it's tough to run an entire permanent capital. I always need to be invested in vehicle based on non-sponsor activity, because it is so episodic.
Speaker Change: So I would say we probably have off the coffees maybe more 60-40 in terms of our public BDCs because you need to have a little bit more of that flow business.
Speaker Change: to stay invested. But I can follow up if you want a more specific number. Paul, but I'd say our platform as a whole is 50-50 with a little bit more waiting towards sponsor in the BDCs, just because of you know what's called working capital management.
Speaker Change: It would help you and our shareholders to publish in every quarter, we can begin to do that.
Speaker Change: Yeah, sure. Yeah, thanks. It would be interesting to kind of see and interact that. I mean,
Speaker Change: When I look though, when I look at your portfolio, you know, I look kind of at the watch list investments, you know, the loans that are marked down.
Speaker Change: You know, there's a number of investments on there. I mean, how many of those?
Speaker Change: Investments then would you say that you're I guess actively involved in the turnaround of the resolution process as a platform, you know, versus, you know, more of like a syndicated type of participation.
Thank you.
Speaker Change: Sorry, well, I kind of want to pull something while you do. We really have...
Speaker Change: Seven or so names that are like, quote unquote, syndicated where we have varying levels of potential influence. I'd say for the most part.
Speaker Change: We have, to the extent that there is something in our portfolio, we are very actively engaged in it. Again, the list of stuff that we have that is truly like...
Broadly syndicated is pretty small.
You know, I think the
Speaker Change: Probably the largest one that is below par with the Avanti.
Speaker Change: and that is one where we have a decent holding across our platform, but that is a more broad syndicated loan and we still have involvement there. But I'd say the vast vast majority of our portfolio as a whole is either we're one of two, three lenders, we're the same lender or it is not large enough that you can kind of ignore any of the lenders. So that again, long way of saying, generally speaking, you know, we're pretty
Speaker Change: involved in all of our portfolio companies and that would then translate into the ones that let's say it would be on your watch list, Paul.
Speaker Change: Thank you very much. I appreciate that it's all for me.
Thanks. Thank you.
Speaker Change: There's no further question at this time. I would like to turn the conference back over to Ted Goldthorpe for closing remarks.
Speaker Change: Thank you all for attending a call and as for always reach out to us with any questions which we're happy to discuss. We look forward to speaking to you again in May when we announce our first quarter 2025 results. Thank you very much and have a good weekend.
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Speaker Change: too much to look at Create a crescent moon Makin' stories there's always something to see
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David Ratliff, Steven Martin, Paul Johnson, Christopher Nolan