Q4 2024 International General Insurance Holdings Ltd Earnings Call
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Speaker Change: I'd now like to turn the conference over to Robyn Ciders head of Investor Relations. Please go ahead.
Okay.
Speaker Change: Good day and welcome to the International General Insurance Holdings L. P. DS fourth quarter 2024 financial results Conference call. All participants are in listen only mode should you need assistance. Please signal a conference specialist by pressing the star key followed by zero.
Robyn Ciders: Thanks, Dave and good morning, everyone and welcome to today's conference call today, we'll be discussing our fourth quarter and full year results you will have seen our press release.
Speaker Change: We issued last night after the market close.
Speaker Change: If you'd like a copy of the press release, you can find it on our website at <unk>.
Speaker Change: After todays presentation, there will be an opportunity to ask questions to ask a question you May Press Star then one on your telephone keypad to withdraw your question. Please press Star then two please note. This event is being recorded.
Speaker Change: And sure enough.
Speaker Change: We've also posted a supplementary investor presentation, which can be can also be found on our website presentations page in the investors section.
Akshay: On todays call are executive chairman of Agi Wassa Akshay.
Rob: Rob <unk>, President and CEO, Alicia <unk>, Sze, Chief Financial Officer Lindsay.
Speaker Change: I'd now like to turn the conference over to Robyn Ciders head of Investor Relations. Please go ahead.
Speaker Change: <unk> will begin the call with some high level comments before handing over to Walid.
Speaker Change: Yeah.
Speaker Change: Thank you, Dave and good morning, everyone and welcome to today's conference call.
Walid: Walk you through the key drivers of the results for the quarter and the full year and finish up with some views with our views on market conditions and our outlook for the rest of 2025 at that point, we'll open for Q&A.
Speaker Change: They will be discussing our fourth quarter and full year results you will have seen our press release.
Speaker Change: Last night after the market closed.
Speaker Change: If you'd like a copy of the press release, you can find it on our website.
Speaker Change: Yeah.
Speaker Change: I'll begin with the customary safe Harbor language.
Speaker Change: I see and sort out.
Speaker Change: Our speakers remarks may contain forward looking statements. Some of the forward statements can be identified by the use of forward looking.
Speaker Change: We've also posted a supplementary presentation to be if not I'll kick off.
Speaker Change: We've found on our web site presentation page in the investors section.
Speaker Change: We caution you such forward looking statements should not be resolved.
Speaker Change: On todays call are executive chairman of G. I want to say President you at least say your financial officer. That's risky. It's always work that well begin the call with some high level comments before handing over to Walid.
Speaker Change: And by Us with the future plan.
Speaker Change: The estimates or expectations contemplated by us will in fact.
Speaker Change: Yeah.
Speaker Change: Forward looking and involve risks uncertainties and assumptions.
Speaker Change: Actual results may differ materially from those projected.
Walid: These are the key drivers of the results for quarter end of your full year and finish up with some views are with our views on market conditions and our outlook for breath.
Speaker Change: Due to a variety of factors.
Speaker Change: Putting the risk on mechanics.
Speaker Change: Annual report on form 20-F for the year ended December 31.
Speaker Change: That's great.
Speaker Change: Q&A.
Speaker Change: Free and the company.
Speaker Change: I'll begin with the customary safe Harbor language.
Speaker Change: <unk> and other filings with the SEC as well results.
Speaker Change: Our speakers remarks may contain forward looking statements some of the Ford agents can be identified by the use of forward looking.
Speaker Change: Released that we use.
Speaker Change: Yes.
Speaker Change: Yeah.
Speaker Change: We undertake no obligation to update or revise publicly any forward.
Speaker Change: Yeah.
Speaker Change: We caution you that forward looking statements.
Amit: Hey, Amit.
Speaker Change:
Speaker Change: Uh huh.
Amit: Also during this call will be non.
Speaker Change: I had to estimate terrific.
Speaker Change: I'm just trying to find out what was that.
Amit: non-GAAP financial measures for a reconciliation of non-GAAP financial measures.
Speaker Change: Forward looking and involve risks.
Amit: Nearest GAAP measure.
Steve: Steve and Assembly.
Amit: We filed that yet.
Speaker Change: All right.
Amit: Available on our website.
Speaker Change: Is that the sport.
Amit: With that I'll now turn the call over to our executive Chairman Watson.
Speaker Change: We see a variety of fast.
Speaker Change: Putting the responses.
Speaker Change: Yes.
Speaker Change: Annual report on form 20-F for the year.
Speaker Change: 31, three in the company.
Watson: Okay. Thank you Robin.
Speaker Change: Six eight and other filings with the FTC.
Amit: Good day everyone.
Speaker Change: As a result.
Watson: Thank you for joining us on today's call.
Speaker Change: Yes.
Watson: We had another outstanding year.
Speaker Change: Yes.
Speaker Change: We undertake no obligation to update or revise publicly any forward.
Watson: 24.
Watson: We reported solid results across all of them.
Speaker Change: Yeah.
Watson: Our most important financial metrics.
Speaker Change: Oh journey.
Watson: Including growth and book value per share almost 20%.
Speaker Change: non-GAAP financial measures.
Speaker Change: A reconciliation of non-GAAP.
Speaker Change: Nearest LASA.
Watson: And with dividends.
Speaker Change: Right.
Speaker Change: Okay.
Watson: Included.
Speaker Change: Website.
Watson: Of our 24%.
Speaker Change: With that I'll now turn the call over to alright, Thank you Chairman Watson.
Watson: These results once again demonstrate our focus discipline and consistency.
Watson: The fusion.
Our proficiency and actively managing our capital so that we deliver on the promises we have made to our plan.
Speaker Change: Okay. Thank you Robin.
Speaker Change: Good day, everyone. Thank you for joining us on today's call.
Sheryl: And Sheryl.
Speaker Change: We had another outstanding year in 2024.
Speaker Change: While the 'twenty 'twenty four was an excellent year, we prefer to look at things over a longer.
Speaker Change: We reported solid results across all of them.
Speaker Change: Our most important financial metrics.
Speaker Change: We've been in this business for a good three years now.
Speaker Change: Including growth and book value per share almost 20%.
Speaker Change: And this is just about five years to do this as we began trading as a public company.
Speaker Change: And with dividends included over 24%.
Speaker Change: For the two years prior to going public.
Speaker Change: These results once again demonstrate our focus discipline and consistency.
Speaker Change: We built a successful track record of consistent strong performance.
Speaker Change: The infusion.
Speaker Change: <unk> is actively managing our capital so that we deliver on the promises we have made to our clients in Seattle.
Speaker Change: Generating significant value.
Speaker Change: For our shareholders.
Speaker Change: But it would be fair to say that.
Speaker Change: For any company going public, especially the United States.
Speaker Change: Yeah.
Speaker Change: While 2024 was and exited the year, we prefer to look at things over a longer.
Speaker Change: They would have to prove themselves.
Speaker Change: Yeah.
Speaker Change: I can confidently say that we have done that over the past five years.
Speaker Change: We've been in this business for three years now.
Speaker Change: And this is just about five years to the day since we began trading as a public company.
Speaker Change: We have.
Speaker Change: Very clearly demonstrated our ability to not just maintain our track record.
Speaker Change: For the two years prior to going public.
Speaker Change: But to improve upon.
Speaker Change: We built a successful track record of consistent strong performance.
Speaker Change: Our achievements during this period have been nothing short of remarkable.
Speaker Change: Generating significant value.
Speaker Change: We have doubled the size of our underwriting portfolio.
Speaker Change: For our shareholders.
Speaker Change: Adding new lines of business.
Speaker Change: But it would be fair to say that for any company going public, especially the United States.
Speaker Change: And entering new markets, including the United States.
Speaker Change: Making us a truly global specialty insurer and reinsurer.
Speaker Change: They will have to prove themselves all over again.
Speaker Change: I can confidently say that we have done that over the past five years.
Speaker Change: We have seen it.
Speaker Change: Significantly strengthened our balance sheet to accommodate our large service portfolio more than doubling our asset base.
Speaker Change: We have.
Speaker Change: Very clearly demonstrated our ability to not just maintain our track record.
Speaker Change: Our investments and cash portfolio and our capital position.
Speaker Change: But to improve upon.
Speaker Change: Our achievements during this period have been nothing short of remarkable.
Speaker Change: Most.
Speaker Change: Over this time, we have delivered an average core operating return on equity of 21%.
Speaker Change: We have doubled the size of our varieties portfolio.
Speaker Change: Adding new lines of business.
Speaker Change: Compounded annual growth in book value per share of 12, 3%.
Speaker Change: Entering new markets, including the United States.
Speaker Change: As demonstrated our proficiency in actively managing our cap returning a total of $116 $3 million to shareholders in dividends and share purchases.
Speaker Change: Making us a truly global specialty insurer and reinsurer.
Speaker Change: Yeah.
Speaker Change: We have seen.
Speaker Change: Significantly strengthened our balance sheet to accommodate our large service portfolio more than doubling our asset base.
Speaker Change: In addition.
Speaker Change: Our investments and cash portfolio and our capital position.
Speaker Change: So our financial achievements I'm, particularly proud of our non filings for the achievements over the past five years.
Speaker Change: Most importantly over this time.
Most notably for me that we have carefully and thoughtfully preserved our culture.
Speaker Change: We have delivered an average core operating return on equity of 24, 1% comp.
Speaker Change: I have always thought of ICR.
Speaker Change: Compounded annual growth in book value per share of 12, 3%.
Speaker Change: R&D working together sharing perspectives.
Speaker Change: <unk> demonstrated our proficiency in actively managing our capital returning a total of harvest $63 million to shareholders.
Speaker Change: Having mutual respect for one another.
Speaker Change: And this culture remains deeply embedded across the company today.
Speaker Change: This is particularly impressive given a lot of that growth.
Speaker Change: Dividends and share purchases.
Speaker Change: As a result of the continued stability in our performance.
Speaker Change: In addition.
Speaker Change: So our financial achievements I'm, particularly proud of our noncore items for the achievements over the past five years.
Speaker Change: Excellent results, we have achieved.
Speaker Change: As we look to the years ahead.
Speaker Change: With that we will continue to deliver on our promise of consistent value creation to all of our stakeholders.
Most notably for me that we have carefully and thoughtfully preserved our culture.
Speaker Change: I have always thought of I G. I is it family working together.
Speaker Change: I will now hand over to our leader, who will discuss the numbers in more detail and.
Speaker Change: Gary perspectives, and having mutual respect for one.
Speaker Change: Talk about market conditions, and our outlook for the year ahead.
Speaker Change: And this culture remains deeply embedded across the company today.
Speaker Change: I will remain on the call for any questions.
This is particularly impressive given our rapid growth and as a result of the continued stability in our performance as the excellent results we have achieved.
Speaker Change: Yes.
Speaker Change: Yes.
Speaker Change: Thank you.
Speaker Change: Thank you once it's good morning, everybody and thank you all for joining us today.
Speaker Change: I'm pleased to be talking to you. This morning about another quarter and full year of <unk>.
Speaker Change: As we look to the years ahead I'm confident that we will continue to deliver on our promise of consistent value creation for all our stakeholders.
Speaker Change: Solid financial results, we generated solid top and bottom line results in the fourth quarter translating to a 77, 8% combined ratio record core operating income of $40 9 million to.
Speaker Change: I will now.
Speaker Change: <unk> over to our leader, who will discuss the numbers in more detail.
Speaker Change: 25% core operating return on equity.
Speaker Change: And talk about market conditions, and our outlook for the year ahead.
Speaker Change: For the full year, we grew top line marginally by just under 2%.
Speaker Change: I will remain on the call for any questions at the end.
Speaker Change: Our view of top line growth as we said before clearly changed during.
Speaker Change: During the course of.
Speaker Change: Thank you.
Speaker Change: 2024, as we saw increased competition pushing rates in many lines in many of our markets.
Speaker Change: Thank you wants it good morning, everybody and thank you all for joining us today.
Speaker Change: The last we generated a combined ratio of just under 80%.
Speaker Change: I'm pleased to be talking to you. This morning about another quarter and full year of solid financial results, we generated solid top and bottom line results in the fourth quarter translating to a 77, 8% combined ratio record core operating income of $40 9 million.
Speaker Change: Record net income of $135 2 million and record core operating income.
Speaker Change: Almost $145 million.
Speaker Change: Leading to a return on average equity of 22, 6% and core operating return on average equity of 20.
Speaker Change: 25% core operating return on equity.
Speaker Change: 24, 2% for the year.
Speaker Change: For the full year, we grew top line marginally by just under 2%.
Speaker Change: Before I delve into the details of the results I just.
Speaker Change: I'd like to reflect a little more on what's his comments in the past five years.
Speaker Change: Our view of topline growth as we said before clearly changed through during the course of two.
Speaker Change: As he just noted will mark our fifth anniversary of being public company in just a few weeks.
Speaker Change: 2024, as we saw increased competition pushing rates in many lines in many of our markets. Nevertheless, we generated a combined ratio of just under 80%.
Speaker Change: I want to note that the financial achievements. We've made during this time I'd like to focus a little bit.
Speaker Change: More on the non financial achievements.
Speaker Change: Record net income of $135 2 million and record core operating income of.
Speaker Change: So we went public on March 18, 2020 at the time in spite of a rich 18 year history in this business.
Speaker Change: Almost $145 million.
Speaker Change: We were a virtually unknown middle eastern company with a market value of around $400 million.
Speaker Change: Leading to a return on average equity of 22, 6%.
Speaker Change: You may recall that within days of us listing.
Speaker Change: Core operating return on equity of 24, 2% for the year.
Speaker Change: On Nasdaq.
Speaker Change: Before I delve into the details of the results I just.
Speaker Change: U K the U S and virtually the entire world.
Speaker Change: I'd like to reflect a little more on what's his comments in the past five years.
Speaker Change: Whole facing an unprecedented global pandemic went into lockdown.
Speaker Change: As he just noted will mark our fifth anniversary of being a public company in just a few weeks.
Speaker Change: Effectively preventing us from traveling to meet our shareholders face to face and practically erasing any ability to target prospective new investors.
Speaker Change: Well I want to note that the financial achievements. We've made during this time I'd like to focus.
Speaker Change: The first few years, we were in the throes of the Destocking process, which can be somewhat.
Speaker Change: More on the non financial achievements.
But we went public on March 18, 2020 at a time in spite of a rich 18 year history. In this business, we were a virtually unknown middle Eastern company with a market value of around $400 million.
Speaker Change: Of a complex one all while adjusting to the demands of life as a public company.
Speaker Change: Five years ago, we were a group of about 225 people across five offices, writing less than $400 million.
Gross premiums.
Speaker Change: You may recall that within days of us listing.
Speaker Change: Today, we're over 450 people across eight offices.
Speaker Change: On NASDAQ the U K, the U S and virtually the entire world.
Speaker Change: And as you would have seen it.
Speaker Change: We just closed 2024 with premiums of over $700 million.
Speaker Change: Oh facing an unprecedented global pandemic went into lockdown.
Speaker Change: During this time, we entered new markets, most notably the U S.
Speaker Change: Secondly, preventing us from traveling to meet our shareholders face to face and practically erasing any ability to target prospective new investors.
Speaker Change: We added new lines of business like contingency.
Speaker Change: We opened offices in Bermuda in Oslo, and also multi where we established our European platform.
Speaker Change: The first few years, we were in the throes of the Destocking process, which can be somewhat of.
Speaker Change: We created efficiencies by taking previously outsourced services.
Speaker Change: A complex one all while adjusting to the demands of life as a public company.
Speaker Change: Our in house, such as Sox reporting various functions and delegated authority oversight.
Speaker Change: Five years ago, we were a group of about 225 people across five offices, writing less than $400 million.
Speaker Change: We bolstered our underwriting capabilities across all our offices and most recently.
Speaker Change: Gross premiums.
Speaker Change: Today, we're over 450 people across eight offices.
Speaker Change: In our London underwriting center, we established a presence at Lloyd's.
Speaker Change: And as you will have seen.
Speaker Change: We just closed 'twenty 'twenty four with premiums up over 700 million.
Speaker Change: And relocated to new offices that are more conducive to supporting our marketing activities.
Speaker Change: During this time, we entered new markets, most notably the U S.
Speaker Change: Lansing.
Speaker Change: Our visibility with key audiences.
Speaker Change: We've made these accomplishments while producing some of the best financial results in our history.
Speaker Change: We added new lines of business like contingency.
Speaker Change: We opened offices in Bermuda, and Oslo, and also Malta, where we established our European platform.
Speaker Change: And reaching a market cap that is currently hovering around the $1 2 billion dollar Mark.
Speaker Change: And most importantly through it all we've maintained our unique and deeply rooted culture, one characterized by high performance collaboration and mutual respect.
Speaker Change: We created efficiencies by taking previously outsourced services.
Speaker Change: Our in house, such as Sox reporting various functions and delegated authority oversight.
Speaker Change: So it's safe to say that our focus has been truly remarkable as well since you mentioned.
Speaker Change: We bolstered our underwriting capabilities across all our offices and most recently.
Speaker Change: Now returning to our usual agenda ill recap, our Q4 and full year numbers.
Speaker Change: In our London underwriting center, we established a presence at Lloyd's.
Speaker Change: Before moving onto our view of the market.
And relocated to new offices that are more conducive to supporting our marketing activities.
Speaker Change: Starting with the top line gross written premiums were up.
Speaker Change: Just under 6% in the fourth quarter.
Speaker Change: Nancy.
Nancy: Our visibility with key audiences.
Speaker Change: Mainly driven by growth in the short tail and reinsurance segments for the full year gross premiums were up just under 2% when compared to 23.
Nancy: We've made these accomplishments while producing some of the best financial results in our history.
Nancy: And reaching a market cap that is currently hovering around the $1 2 billion dollar Mark.
Speaker Change: I'll talk in a moment about what we're seeing in our markets and what we were expecting in terms of top line.
Nancy: And most importantly through it all we've maintained our unique too deeply rooted culture, one characterized by high performance collaboration and mutual respect.
Speaker Change: As I said on last quarters last quarter's call.
Speaker Change: There are opportunities for new business, but we're having to work harder to find them and that's exactly what we're doing.
Nancy: So it's safe to say that our progress has been truly remarkable as wassa expansion.
Speaker Change: But I want to be clear that if the profitability in these new opportunities.
Nancy: Now returning to our usual agenda ill recap, our Q4 and full year numbers.
Speaker Change: Meet our requirements, we will simply not write the business.
Speaker Change: This is all part of effectively managing the cycle with our focus always on bottom line profitability.
Nancy: Before moving onto our view of the markets.
Nancy: Starting with the top line gross written premiums were up.
Speaker Change: Our combined ratio of 77, 8% for the fourth quarter and 79, 9% for the full year.
Nancy: Just under 6% in the fourth quarter.
Mainly driven by growth in the short tail and reinsurance segments for the full year gross premiums were up just under 2% when compared to 23.
Speaker Change: Healthy and they reflect the continued strong performance of the group.
Speaker Change: 2024.
Nancy: I'll talk in a moment about what we're seeing in our markets and what we were expecting in terms of top line.
Speaker Change: A more elevated loss environment I mean, we had.
Helane: Okay Helane.
Nancy: But as I said, the last quarters last quarters Cole.
Milton: Milton extreme flooding in Europe, and the UAE, the Taiwan earthquake.
Nancy: There are opportunities for new business, but we're having to work harder to find them and that's exactly what we're doing.
Helane: And also the convective storms in the U S.
Nancy: But I want to be clear that if the profitability in these new opportunities don't meet our requirements, we will simply not write the business.
Milton: Our share of those losses has been very mad at us.
Helane: Been very manageable.
Helane: And this clearly illustrates the resilience, we've created a larger and more diversified portfolio.
Nancy: This is all part of effectively managing the cycle with our focus always on bottom line profitability.
Helane: Just a few comments on our segment results.
Nancy: Our combined ratio of 77, 8% for the fourth quarter and 79, 9% for the full year, a very healthy and they reflect the continued strong performance of the group.
Helane: Our short tail segment gross premiums were up marginally in the fourth quarter.
Helane: Enough.
Helane: Just shy of 3% for the full year.
Helane: Earned premium was relatively flat compared to the fourth quarter of 2003 and up over 8% for the full year.
Nancy: 2024.
Nancy: So a more elevated loss environment I mean, we had hurricanes Helane Milton extreme flooding in Europe, and the U a E. The Taiwan earthquake.
Underwriting income was down in the fourth quarter, driven largely by a higher level of losses, but up almost 5% for the full year in spite of the elevated loss activity.
Helane: I'd note here that the new business opportunities in engineering contingency.
Nancy: And also the convective storms in the U S.
Nancy: Our share of those losses had been very mandate has been very manageable.
Helane: Marine lines, such as ports and terminals marine cargo and.
Helane: And to a lesser degree the property lines were offset by contraction of more than 25% in our aviation book.
Nancy: And this clearly illustrates the resilience we've created in a larger and more diversified portfolio.
Nancy: Just a few comments on our segment results in our short tail segment gross premiums were up marginally in the fourth quarter.
Helane: The reinsurance segment performed very well overall, the fourth quarter year over year comparison is somewhat distorted by the true up in the fourth quarter of 'twenty three.
Nancy: And then.
Nancy: Just shy of 3% for the full year.
Nancy: Earned premium was relatively flat compared to the fourth quarter of 'twenty, three and up over 8% for the full year.
Helane: For the full year, which is a much better indicator.
Helane: Gross premiums were up more than 36%.
Nancy: Underwriting income was down in the fourth quarter, driven largely by a higher level of losses.
Helane: In this segment, both underwriting income and net earned premiums were up significantly in the fourth quarter and full year when compared to the same periods.
Nancy: Almost 5% for the full year in spite of the elevated loss activity.
Nancy: I'd note here that the new business opportunities in engineering contingency.
Helane: For the year before.
Helane: The long tail segment was the most challenging area of our portfolio.
Nancy: Marine lines, such as ports and terminals marine cargo.
Helane: And where we saw again.
Nancy: And to a lesser degree the property lines were offset by contraction of more than 25% in our aviation book.
Helane: Some expected contraction in the book.
Helane: It was down about one five points in Q4, and almost 10 points for the full year.
Nancy: The reinsurance segment performed very well overall, the fourth quarter year over year comparison is somewhat distorted, though by the true up in the fourth quarter of 'twenty three.
Helane: Again, what Youre seeing here is the effect of discipline, we're exercising and risk selection and all part of being strong cycle managers in the business.
Helane: Yeah.
Nancy: For the full year, which is a much better indicator.
Helane: As a result net earned premiums were down compared to the same periods in 'twenty three underwriting income more than doubled in the fourth quarter due to a higher level of losses recorded in the fourth quarter previous year versus this one.
Nancy: Gross premiums were up more than 36%.
Nancy: In this segment, both underwriting income and net earned premiums were up significantly in the fourth quarter and full year when compared to the same periods.
Helane: But again, a better indicator would be the full year.
Nancy: For the year before.
Helane: And that underwriting income was down a little over 30%.
Nancy: The long tail segment was the most challenging area of our portfolio.
Helane: Overall in the long tail segments, what I've said in prior quarters remains the same.
And where we saw again.
Nancy: Some expected contraction in the book.
Helane: For the foreseeable future, we're likely to continue to see rates under pressure.
Nancy: It was down about one five points in Q4, and almost 10 points for the full year.
And we continue to take a more courses shoe here until market conditions do improve.
Nancy: Again, what you're seeing here is the effect of discipline, we're exercising and risk selection and all part of being strong cycle managers in the business.
Helane: Net income for the fourth quarter was $30 million for the full year net income was.
Yeah.
Nancy: As a result net earned premiums were down compared to the same periods in 'twenty three underwriting income more than doubled in the fourth quarter.
Helane: Slightly above $135 million up almost 15% from the prior year.
Helane: And a record result for us.
Nancy: Due to a higher level of losses recorded in the fourth quarter previous year versus this one.
Helane: Oh.
Helane: Due to solid underwriting margins.
Nancy: But again, a better indicator would be the full year.
Helane: A better investment income, but again, noting the impact of the redemption of the warrants had on the full year results of 2023.
Nancy: And that underwriting income was down a little over 30%.
Nancy: Overall in the long tail segment, what I've said in prior quarters remains the same.
Helane: Core operating income was a record.
$49 million in Q4.
Nancy: For the foreseeable future, we're likely continue to see rates under pressure.
Helane: And a record $144 8 million for the full year of 24.
Nancy: And we continue to take a more courses shoe here until market conditions do improve.
Helane: Turning to the balance sheet total assets increased almost 11% over $2 billion.
Nancy: Net income for the fourth quarter was a $30 million for the full year net income was slightly above $135 million up almost 15% from the prior year.
Helane: Our investments in cash portfolio grew by more than 14% during the year.
Helane: Our allocation to fixed income.
Helane: Which makes up approximately 78% of our portfolio generated almost $62 million in investment income.
Nancy: And a record result for us.
Nancy: Oh, Oh, Oh due to solid underwriting margins.
Nancy: Better investment income, but again, noting the impact that the redemption of the warrants had on the full year results of 2023.
Helane: Which represents an increase.
Helane: Of.
Helane: Almost 30% over the year before with a yield of four 3%.
Nancy: Core operating income was a record.
Helane: Note, we kept duration relatively stable at three two years.
Nancy: $49 million in Q4.
Nancy: And a record $144 8 million for the full year of 24.
Helane: Total equity increased 21, 1% to over $650 million.
Nancy: Turning to the balance sheet total assets increased almost 11% over $2 billion.
Helane: December 31.
Helane: When compared to the same point at the same point of last year before.
Nancy: Our investments in cash portfolio grew by more than 14% during the year.
Helane: I would note that year and total equity was impacted by a mark to market loss of about $22 million on our bond portfolio during Q4, but remember that we hold our bonds to maturity.
Nancy: Our allocation to fixed income.
Nancy: Make which makes up approximately 78% of our portfolio generated almost $52 million in investment income.
Helane: During the fourth quarter, we repurchased more than 220000 common shares.
Nancy: Which represents an increase.
Nancy:
Helane: Taking us up to just under one 5 million shares for the full year.
Nancy: Almost 30% over the year before with a yield of four 3%.
Helane: As of the 31 December just keeps approximately $2 3 million shares.
Nancy: [noise] notes, we kept duration relatively stable at three two years.
Helane: Remaining under our existing $7 5 million repurchase.
Nancy: Total equity increased 21.1% to over $650 million at December 31st.
Helane: Authorization.
Helane: Ultimately, we recorded a return on average shareholders' equity of 18, 4% for the fourth quarter and 22, 6% for the full year and a core operating ROE of 25% for Q4 and 24, 2% for the full year.
Nancy: When compared to the same point at the same point of last the year before.
Nancy: I would note that year and total equity was impacted by a mark to market loss of about $22 million on our bond portfolio during Q4, but remember that we hold our bonds to maturity.
Helane: Lastly, and most importantly book value per share was $14 85.
Nancy: During the fourth quarter, we repurchased more than 220000 common shares.
Helane: At the end of the year, representing a year over year increase of just under 20%.
Nancy: Taking us up to just under one and a half million shares for the full year.
Helane: Yeah.
Helane: So as I said at the outset, another excellent year for IGF.
Nancy: As of the 31st December just leaves approximately $2 3 million shares.
Helane: I congratulate all of our people for the results, we have achieved both financial and nonfinancial.
Nancy: Remaining under our existing $7 5 million repurchase.
This is very much a team effort and together we have made.
Nancy: Authorization.
Nancy: Ultimately, we recorded a return on average shareholders' equity of 18, 4% for the fourth quarter and 22, 6% for the full year and our core operating ROE of 25% for Q4 and 24, 2% for the full year.
Helane: Incredible progress in maximizing our efforts through better collaboration and better communication.
Helane: Creating more efficiencies across our offices and within units and.
Helane: And being more active in our marketing efforts all of which have laid a very solid foundation for the coming years.
Nancy: Lastly, and most importantly book value per share was $14.85.
Helane: Looking ahead I am still confident that we can find good opportunities to write new business across many lines within our portfolio. This is the benefit.
Nancy: At the end of the year, representing a year over year increase of just under 20%.
Nancy: Yeah.
Helane: Even with our relatively small size of having a well diversified ports.
Nancy: So as I said at the outset, another excellent year for our Geos.
Helane: Portfolio of risks.
Nancy: I congratulate all of our people for the results, we have achieved both financial and nonfinancial.
Helane: We have more optionality and more levers to work with to shift our focus and pivot to those areas with the strongest rate momentum.
Nancy: This is very much a team effort and together we've made.
Nancy: Incredible progress in maximizing our efforts through better collaboration and better communication.
Helane: The highest.
Helane: Margins.
Helane: All of this while always remaining disciplined selective and consistent.
Nancy: Creating more efficiencies across our offices and within units and.
Helane: And working.
Helane: Within our well defined risk appetite and tolerances.
Nancy: And being more active in our marketing efforts all of which have laid a very solid foundation for the coming years.
Helane: Our presence in key territories is critical in allowing us to see emerging trends and respond quickly and decisively.
Nancy: Looking ahead I'm still confident that we can find good opportunities to write new business across many lines within our portfolio as this is the benefit.
Helane: And capturing the business locally this is especially important today as we're seeing increasing competitive pressures.
Nancy: Even even with our relatively small size of having a well diversified portfolio.
Helane: And many of our international markets are becoming stronger and more relevant.
Helane: And what's clear is there ability and desire to retain business.
Nancy: Portfolio of risks.
Nancy: We have more optionality and more levers to work with to shift our focus and pivot to those areas with the strongest rate momentum and the highest Ah.
To retain more business locally within these domestic markets.
Helane: I'm, particularly pleased with all of the work we've done in the.
Nancy: Margins.
Nancy: All of this while always remaining disciplined selective and consistent.
Helane: Patient of a more competitive environment.
Helane: Differentiate ourselves through a strong technical capabilities underwriting discipline and.
Nancy: And working.
Nancy: Within our well defined risk appetite and tolerances.
Helane: And of course, the quality of service we provide.
Nancy: Our presence in key territories, it's critical in allowing us to see emerging trends and respond quickly and decisively.
Helane: Our underwriting teams are led by seasoned professionals, who are very well versed in the cyclicality and volatility of this business.
Nancy: And capturing the business locally this is especially important today as we're seeing increasing competitive pressures.
Helane: Managed cycles through the good times and the more difficult times and they understand that relationships matter.
Nancy: And many of our international markets are becoming stronger and more relevant.
Helane: And this is one of our strengths and what enables us to compete against companies that are much much larger than us.
Nancy: And what's clear is there ability and desire to retain business or to retain more business locally within these domestic markets.
Helane: Specifically on what we're seeing in our markets.
Helane: There is clearly a heightened degree of competitive pressure generally as I said.
Nancy: I'm, particularly pleased with all the work we've done in the.
Helane: And 2025 patent has gotten off to a challenging start with significantly elevated loss activity.
Nancy: Patient of a more competitive environment, we differentiate ourselves through a strong technical capabilities underwriting discipline.
Helane: Particularly in short tail reinsurance lines and long tail lines continue to be pressured.
Nancy: And of course, the quality of service we provide.
Helane: Yeah.
Helane: I'll start with the long tail segment net rates overall remain adequate despite several.
Nancy: Our underwriting teams are led by seasoned professionals, who are very well versed in the cyclicality and volatility of this business.
Helane: Consecutive quarters of decline.
Helane: As I said, a moment ago, we're seeing some signs of rates stabilizing not broad stabilization, but in some areas like pie.
Nancy: Managed cycles through the good times and the more difficult times and they understand that.
Nancy: <unk> ships matter.
Nancy: And this is one of our strengths and whats enables us to compete against companies that are much.
Helane: The pace of rate decline is slowing in the book overall has still rate adequate.
Nancy: A much larger than us.
Helane: I'd note that these comments are specific to the long tail lines that we write.
Nancy: Specifically on what we're seeing in our markets.
Nancy: There's clearly a heightened degree of competitive pressure generally as I said.
Helane: All of which as we've said many times before in the U K and international markets and not the U S where the story is clearly different.
Nancy: And 2025 has it has gotten off to a challenging start with significantly elevated loss activity.
Helane: Our short term portfolio remains more of a mixed bag rates overall remained broadly steady with what we saw in 24 with a fair bit of variation by line and geography.
Nancy: Particularly in short tail and reinsurance lines in long tail lines continue to be pressured.
Nancy: I'll start with the long tail segment net rates overall remain adequate despite several.
Helane: It's definitely increasingly competitive I mean, so far in the first quarter as I said, we've seen significantly more active loss environment.
Nancy: Consecutive quarters of decline.
Nancy: As I said, a moment ago, we're seeing some signs of rates stabilizing not broad stabilization, but in some areas like P. I.
Helane: With the wildfires in California, as well as a number of major risks losses globally.
Nancy: The pace of rate decline is slowing in the book overall, there's still rate adequate.
Helane: And it remains really to be seen what impact this loss activity will have on the more on market conditions.
Nancy: I'd note that these comments are specific to the long tail lines W. Right. So you know all of which as we've said many times before in the U K and international markets and not the U S where the story is clearly different.
Helane: Energy business is obviously, one of our largest and most important classes.
Helane: Onshore energy is seeing an increase in competitive pressures while rates are.
Helane: Our are holding up a little bit better on the power side.
Nancy: Our short term portfolio remains more of a mixed bag rates overall remained broadly steady with what we saw in 24 with a fair bit of variation by line and geography.
Helane: So here, we are also seeing more competition as well with new capacity entering the market.
Helane: Offshore energy by contrast that say several consecutive quarters of decline.
Nancy: It's definitely increasingly competitive I mean, so far in the first quarter as I said, we've seen significantly more active loss environment.
Helane: And continues to be quite challenging.
Helane: Other areas, which continue to show stability decent rate adequacy include property both.
Nancy: With the wildfires in California, as well as a number of major risks losses globally.
Helane: U S and international ports and terminals marine cargo marine lines in general.
Nancy: And it remains really to be seen what impact this loss activity will have on the more on market conditions.
Helane: Still looking quite positive.
Helane: Contingency.
Helane: Which is an area, where we're still seeing some good opportunities.
Energy business is obviously, one of our largest and most important classes.
Helane: Construction and engineering is definitely a bright spot.
Nancy: Onshore energy is seeing an increase in competitive pressures while rates.
Helane: With really healthy opportunities in North America.
Nancy: Are holding up a little bit better on the power side, though.
Helane: Regions, such as Asia Pac and in Mena.
Nancy: So here, we're also seeing more competition as well with new capacity entering the market.
Helane: General Aviation, However continues to be one.
Nancy: Offshore energy by contrast that say several consecutive quarters of decline.
Helane: One of the outliers and as I've said, we've contracted that book quite significantly.
Nancy: And continues to be quite challenging.
Nancy: Other areas, which continue to show stability decent rate adequacy include property, both U S and international.
Helane: After several quarters of.
Helane: Great reductions.
Helane: But I would note that there's been a recent uptick in loss activity in that space.
Nancy: Ports and terminals marine cargo marine lines in general are still looking quite positive.
Helane: And that May.
Helane: Just may help stabilize rates.
For 2025.
Nancy: Contingency.
Helane: In the reinsurance segment about two thirds of our Treaty book Renews in Q1 and.
Nancy: Which is an area, where we're still seeing some good opportunities.
Helane: And what we've seen so far is probably fairly consistent with what you've heard from others.
Nancy: Construction and engineering is definitely a bright spot.
Nancy: With really healthy opportunities in North America.
Helane: It was a more aggressive push for market share towards the end of the year and the last final weeks and to consequently rates were down around 5% to 10 points.
Nancy: Regions, such as Asia Pac and in Mena.
Nancy: General Aviation however continues to be.
Helane: At one one.
Helane: With some pockets of rate improvement on loss affected business.
Nancy: One of the outliers and as I've said, we've contracted that book quite significantly.
Helane: Coverage has remained relatively stable.
Helane: Stable.
Nancy: After several quarters of rate reductions.
Helane: On a positive note.
Nancy: But I would note that there's been a recent uptick in loss activity in that space.
Helane: The remainder of our book is weighted towards international exposures, which predominantly renew in Q2 and Q3.
Nancy: And that me.
Nancy: Just may help stabilize rates.
Helane: This is where I expect we'll see some new opportunities, which meet our profitability targets.
Nancy: For 2025.
Nancy: In the reinsurance segment about two thirds of our Treaty book Renews in Q1 and.
Helane: It's safe to say that 2025 has gotten off to a rather challenging start for our industry.
And what we've seen so far is probably fairly consistent with what you've heard from others.
Helane: For <unk>, specifically I mean, we mentioned the losses I mentioned the losses previously, but for <unk>, specifically, we expect our losses from the California wildfires as well as the other risk classes that have been incurred so far in Q1 to be manageable for for Agi.
Nancy: It was a it was a more aggressive push for market share towards the end of the year and the last final weeks and consequently rates were down around five to 10 points.
Nancy: At one one.
Nancy: With some pockets of great improvement on loss affected business.
Helane: In our geographic markets.
Coverage has remained relatively stable.
Helane: The U S has been the biggest growth area for us and we expect that will.
Nancy: Stable.
Nancy: On a positive note.
The remainder of our book is weighted towards international exposures, which predominantly when you in Q2 and Q3.
<unk> continued to be one of the markets.
Helane: With the greatest opportunity for us to write new business and grow.
Nancy: This is where I expect we'll see some new opportunities, which meet our profitability targets.
Helane: We are very small payer here in the Grand scheme of things and we remain cautious and always mindful of that.
Nancy: It's safe to say that 2000, and twenty-five has gotten off to a rather challenging start for our industry.
Helane: Our risk appetite and our tolerance is especially when there's extensive cast risk involved.
Nancy: For <unk>, specifically I mean, we mentioned the losses I mentioned the losses previously, but for <unk>, specifically, we expect our losses from the California wildfires as well as the other risk classes that have been incurred so far in Q1 to be manageable for for Agi.
Helane: In 2024, we wrote a total of just over $120 million in gross premium in the U S.
Helane: Which as I said, there's a drop in the ocean.
Helane: But what is almost a two two trillion dollar market.
Helane: So there is plenty of room to grow here both in terms of it with respect to our treaty portfolio, our reinsurance segment as well as our short tail segment.
Nancy: In our geographic markets are the U S has been the biggest growth area for us and we expect that will continue.
Helane: Europe also remains a growth area for us, but it's got slightly different dynamics from the U S.
Nancy: Continue to be one of the markets with the greatest opportunity for us to write new business and grow we're very small payer here in the Grand scheme of things and we remain cautious and always mindful of.
Helane: Europe is much more about relationships so it takes longer.
Helane: A little longer time to penetrate.
Helane: In 2024, we expanded our European presence.
Nancy: Our risk appetite and our tolerances.
Nancy: When there is extensive cats risk involved.
Helane: I think capabilities new products to our offering in both our multi and Oslo offices.
Nancy: In 2024, we wrote a total of just over $120 million in gross premium in the U S.
Helane: And as we've said previously enhanced our marketing activities.
Helane: In 2024, we wrote approximately well almost $19 million in gross premiums across all segments of our business.
Nancy: Which as I said, there's a drop in the ocean what.
Nancy: What is almost a two two trillion dollar market.
Nancy: So there's plenty of room to grow here both in terms of it with respect to our treaty portfolio, our reinsurance segment as well as our short tail segment.
Helane: Similarly in the Mena and Asia Pacific regions, we have some excellent talent on the ground.
Nancy: Europe also remains a growth area for us, but it's got slightly different dynamics from the U S.
Helane: Which we have grown over pretty much across the board over the last few years and we've enhanced our marketing activities and the collaboration between our regional offices in London across regions and this is producing some great opportunities for us.
Nancy: Europe is much more about relationships so it takes longer.
Nancy: A little longer time to penetrate.
Nancy: In 2024, we expanded our European presence.
Helane: So so quite a bit to digest.
Nancy: Adding capabilities new products to our offering in both our multi and Oslo offices.
Helane: We have rapidly evolving market dynamics and from a macro perspective, we continue to face global financial and geopolitical pressures.
Nancy: And as we've said previously enhanced our marketing activities and then in 2024, we wrote approximately well almost $19 million in gross premiums across all segments of our business.
Helane: And clearly heightened degree of polarization.
Helane: But in conclusion, we are fully prepared for these headwinds I'll go back to what what's instead of deal.
Nancy: Similarly in the Mi Mena and Asia Pacific regions, we have some excellent talent on the ground.
Helane: We've proven ourselves and our ability to deliver on our promises as a public company over the past five years, just as we did as a private one to 18 years before that.
Nancy: Which we have grown over a pretty much across the board over the last few years and we've enhanced our marketing activities and the collaboration between our regional offices in London across regions and this is producing some great opportunities.
Helane: We are in our strongest position ever.
We've got the right people with the right capabilities and a deeply embedded performance based culture.
Nancy: For us.
Helane: We've got a well defined and understood strategy.
Nancy: So so quite a bit to digest.
Helane: We are details focused we have a deep understanding of our markets with experienced people on the ground, providing high level of cultural compatibility with.
Nancy: Have rapidly evolving market dynamics and from a macro perspective, we continue to face global financial and geopolitical pressures.
And it clearly heightened degree of polarization.
Helane: We communicate with transparency should we execute with precision.
Nancy: But in conclusion, we are fully prepared for these headwinds I'll go back to what was extended.
Helane: With this excellent foundation I'm, absolutely confident that we will continue to serve.
Helane: Cause a stable market for our customers and generate excellent value for our shareholders in 2025.
Nancy: We've proven ourselves and our ability to deliver on our promises as a public company over the past five years, just as we did as a private one to 18 years before that.
Helane: So I'm going to pause here and we will turn it over for questions.
Speaker Change: Operator, we're ready to take the first question. Please.
Nancy: We are in our strongest position ever.
Nancy: We've got the right people with the right capabilities and a deeply embedded performance based culture.
Speaker Change: We will now begin the question and answer session to ask a question you May Press Star then one on your Touchtone phone.
Nancy: We've got a well defined and understood strategy.
Speaker Change: If you are using a speakerphone. Please pick up your handset before pressing the keys if at any time. Your question has been addressed and you would like to withdraw your question. Please press Star and then two.
Nancy: We have detailed focused we have a deep understanding of our markets with experienced people on the ground providing high level of cultural compatibility.
Nancy: We communicate with transparency till we execute with precision.
Speaker Change: Our first question comes from Michael Phillips with Oppenheimer. Please go ahead.
Nancy: With this excellent foundation I'm, absolutely confident that we will continue to serve.
Michael Phillips: Thank you and good morning, everybody.
Speaker Change: Thanks for the time.
Nancy: It is a stable market for our customers and generate excellent value for our shareholders in 2025.
Speaker Change: First off congrats on the quarter congrats on another great year.
Speaker Change: So what we show on your focus on the underwriting underwriting side of the business, which is which is quite unique.
Nancy: So I'm going to pause here and we will turn it over for questions.
Speaker Change: Let me start with us I apologize in advance I think this question is pretty general, but I'd like maybe it's a good chance to kind of rehash your thoughts from that.
Nancy: Operator, we're ready to take the first question. Please.
Speaker Change: We will now begin the question and answer session to ask a question you May Press Star then one on your Touchtone phone. If you are using a speakerphone. Please pick up your handset before pressing the keys if at any time. Your question has been addressed and you'd like to withdraw. Your question. Please press star and then two.
Speaker Change: While lead you're making it pretty clear that the competitive environment is more intense and.
Speaker Change: Walking away from business, that's not profitable.
Speaker Change: <unk> two that you're focused on the bottom line great.
Speaker Change: But I guess.
Speaker Change: The question is.
Speaker Change: Denise would be envious of a company that's not even at an 80% combined ratio for 2024. So it feels like there's still more room for that to move up and get more business and I guess I'm, just kind of asking at a high level, how you think about that balance.
Speaker Change: Your first question comes from Michael Phillips with Oppenheimer. Please go ahead.
Speaker Change: Thank you and good morning, everybody. Thanks for the time.
Speaker Change: First off congrats on the quarter congrats on another great year.
Speaker Change: What we show on your focus on the underwriting underwriting side of the business, which is which is quite unique.
Speaker Change: Can we get a little more aggressive maybe is too strong of a word but.
Speaker Change: Let me start with it so I apologize in advance I think this question is pretty general, but I'd like maybe it's a good chance to kind of rehash your thoughts from that.
Speaker Change: Are there more opportunities for growth that can help the top line even in this current rate environment, given you've got quite a still strong margin. So just thinking about that overall balance for you guys internally, how you think about that thanks.
Speaker Change: While lead you're making it pretty clear that the competitive environment is more intense.
Speaker Change: And I'll walk away from business, that's not profitable and stay into that that you're focused on the bottom line great.
Mike: Hi, Mike Thanks for the question, it's a good question.
Speaker Change: I think I think for us it's it's.
Speaker Change: But I guess the.
Speaker Change: You know.
Speaker Change: Companies would be envious of a company that's not even at an 80% combined ratio for 2024. So it feels like there's still more room for that to move up and get more business and I guess I'm, just kind of asking at a high level, how you think about that balance.
Speaker Change: Yeah.
Speaker Change: There is no lack of ambition at agi to grow or to want to grow right. So so that's that's unquestionable.
Speaker Change: I think I think the point here is as is.
Speaker Change: Appetite and risk.
Speaker Change: Can we get a little more aggressive maybe is too strong of a word but.
Speaker Change: Our risk appetite risk tolerances vary from company to company.
Speaker Change: Are there more opportunities for growth that can help the top line even in this current rate environment, given you've got quite a still strong margin. So just thinking about that overall balance for you guys internally, how you're thinking about that thanks.
Speaker Change: Yes, the margins, we're generating a very healthy.
Speaker Change: Of.
Speaker Change: The market.
Speaker Change: But I think our approach to the business.
Speaker Change: Is it a reflection of why those results are generated.
Mike: Hi, Mike Thanks for the question, it's a good question.
Speaker Change: We are constantly out there looking for new opportunities looking for opportunities to grow.
Speaker Change: I think I think for us it's it's.
Speaker Change: And and but.
Mike: You know a week.
Speaker Change: But at the end of the day.
Mike: There is no lack of ambition at agi to grow or to want to grow right. So so that's that's unquestionable.
Speaker Change: We have to understand and the way we look at ourselves is that we have to understand who we are and what our true capabilities or whether they be financial intellectual whatever it is.
Mike: I think I think the point here is as you know.
Speaker Change: Work and ensure to stay within those tolerances, because we are in a very we operate in a very punitive.
Mike: Appetite and our risk appetite risk tolerances vary from company to company, yes, the margins, we're generating a very healthy <unk>.
Speaker Change: Industry.
Speaker Change: So we are relatively a small business compared to.
Mike: Of.
Speaker Change: In the larger scheme of things.
Mike: The markets are.
Mike: Hum.
Speaker Change: We are a lot more resilient than we were five years ago.
Mike: But I think our approach to the business as a reflection of why those results are generated.
As I mentioned earlier.
Speaker Change: But we still have to appreciate that.
Mike: We are constantly out there looking for new opportunities looking for opportunities to grow.
Speaker Change: Our size is.
Speaker Change: Is what it is and there are bad.
Mike: And and but at the end of the day you.
Speaker Change: We can take and are willing to take in their best we can.
Mike: We have to understand and the way we look at ourselves as a week after understand who we are and what our true capabilities or whether they be financial and intellectual whatever it is.
Speaker Change: And cannot.
Speaker Change: Do they can some of the business that we write.
Speaker Change: The lines that we right can be very quite.
Speaker Change: Quite.
Speaker Change: Volatile so tweaking your appetite.
Mike: And ward and ensure just stay within those tolerances because we are in a very we operate in a very punitive.
Speaker Change: For certain areas.
Speaker Change: It would work and it is actually circuits that certain lines of business.
Mike:
Mike: Industry.
Speaker Change: As we are having internally, but for other areas, especially the more volatile ones you want to stick to your guns and stick to your philosophy, which has proven time and time again that it delivers.
Mike: We are relatively a small business compared to February.
Mike: In the larger scheme of things.
Mike: We are a lot more resilient than we weren't five years ago.
Mike: I mentioned earlier.
Mike: But we still have to appreciate that.
Speaker Change:
Mike: Our size is.
Speaker Change: And just work within your comfort zone and never.
<unk> is what it is and there are bad we can take and are willing to take in their best that we can.
Speaker Change: It's all about discipline at the end of the day.
Speaker Change: And and.
Mike: And cannot are willing to take in some of the business that we write.
Speaker Change: I'd, rather generate an 80% combined ratio rising to $700 million book of business than our than a 90% bind ratio writing $1 billion book of business I'll make more money with the smaller portfolio.
Lisa: Lisa we rights can be very.
Lisa: Quite a volatile so tweaking your appetite you know.
Lisa: For certain areas.
Speaker Change: I think that's it.
Speaker Change: Perfect. Thank you thanks for all that.
Lisa: It would work and it is actually circuits that certain lines of business.
Speaker Change: Certainly appreciate the last that last comment.
Lisa: As we are having internally, but for other areas, especially the more volatile ones you want to stick to your guns and stick to your philosophy, which has proven time and time again that it delivers.
Thank you for that.
Speaker Change: I guess, California, you said, the California wildfire losses would be manageable I appreciate that I guess.
Speaker Change: Can you just talk in general about that due to losses that we're seeing in California that are sort of almost always there now.
Lisa: Hum.
Lisa: And and just work within your comfort zone or never.
Speaker Change: But this year being pretty bad start to the year does it change your appetite or how much you want to grow in California at all.
Lisa: You know, it's all about discipline at the end of the day.
Lisa: And and you know I'd, rather generate an 80% combined ratio writing a $700 million book of business.
Speaker Change: For your short tail business and then.
Speaker Change: Kind of related southern California, with the losses, what do you think this does to reinsurance going forward.
Lisa: Then a 90% combined ratio writing a $1 billion book of business I'll make more money with a smaller portfolio.
Speaker Change: Yeah.
Speaker Change: I think it's I think.
Speaker Change: I think that's right there that last sentence perfect. Thank you. Thanks for all that that's Super helpful and certainly appreciate the last that last comment.
It's too early to tell what it does to reinsurance going forward.
Speaker Change: You know that after an event like this.
Lisa: Thank you for that.
Lisa: I guess, California, you said, the California wildfire losses would be manageable I appreciate that I guess.
Speaker Change: Mike.
Speaker Change: Naturally anybody in my position of our position.
Speaker Change: I would expect things to change and things change for the better in terms of pricing.
Lisa: Can you just talk in general about that do the losses that we're seeing in California that are sort of almost always are now.
Speaker Change: That is yet to be seen it's I think it's too early to tell.
Lisa: This year being pretty bad start to the year does it change your appetite or how much you want to grow in California at all.
Speaker Change: But.
Speaker Change: You know.
Speaker Change: It's very safe to say that the industry hasn't gotten off to.
Lisa: For your short tail business and then.
Speaker Change: A good start.
Speaker Change: For the year if the market.
Lisa: Kind of related or southern California, with the losses, what do you think this does to reinsurance going forward.
Speaker Change: Does move positively.
Speaker Change: And present much more attractive.
Lisa: I think it's I think I think it's too early to tell what it does to reinsurance going forward.
Speaker Change: Opportunities, whether they be in California or anywhere any other parts of the world that is exactly where we'd be going so that is exactly what we've always done wherever there's dislocation in our industry.
Lisa:
Lisa: You know that after an event like this.
Lisa: Mike.
Lisa: Naturally anybody in my position of our position.
Speaker Change: Definitely opportunity.
Speaker Change: And and so.
Lisa: Would you expect things to change and things change for the better in terms of pricing.
Speaker Change: If if if.
Lisa: That is yet to be seen it's I think it's too early to tell but.
Speaker Change: Pricing improved dramatically in California, its coverage has improved.
Speaker Change: From a selling perspective dramatically.
Lisa: You know.
Lisa: It's very safe to say that the industry hasn't gotten off to.
Speaker Change: In California, or any other parts of the world.
Speaker Change: That will definitely be on our radar.
Lisa: A good start to the year if the market.
Speaker Change:
Speaker Change: <unk>.
Lisa: Does move positively.
Speaker Change: Two two to attack more.
Lisa: And present much more attractive.
Speaker Change: Yeah.
Speaker Change: Aggressively.
Lisa: Opportunities, whether they be in California or anywhere in the other parts of the world that is exactly where we'd be going so that's exactly what we've always done.
Speaker Change: Okay, no that makes sense. Thank you maybe one more if I could and then I'll come back if need be.
Speaker Change: How does your view of.
Speaker Change: They use I think it's around 2000.
Lisa: Wherever there's dislocation in our industry.
Speaker Change: Using <unk> for at the underwriting side.
Lisa: Definitely opportunity and and so if if if if pricing improves dramatically in California as coverage has improved.
Speaker Change: How does how does your view of wanting to use that change as market conditions change in other words, if we're in a more competitive rate environment like.
Speaker Change: Like that side of the business more or do you like it less ore or does it not matter.
Lisa: From a selling perspective dramatically.
Lisa: In California, or any other parts of the world.
Speaker Change: I think you've got to be cute with MGH, you've got to be careful whether the market is in a good state of the markets and about giving your pen away as always.
Lisa: That will definitely be on our radar.
Lisa: Two two.
Lisa: 2222 are attacked more.
Speaker Change: Something no one should take.
Lisa: Yeah.
Lisa: Aggressively.
Speaker Change: Likely.
Lisa: Okay, no that makes sense. Thank you, maybe maybe one more if I could and then I'll come back if if need be.
Speaker Change: That said.
Speaker Change: We would never.
Speaker Change: <unk> really give our pen away to another to an MGA that does exactly what we do that doesn't add any value to our portfolio as our business and.
Lisa: How does your view of.
Speaker Change: They use I think it's around 2000.
Speaker Change: Using <unk> for at the underwriting side.
Speaker Change: How does it how does your view of wanting to use that change as market conditions change in other words, if we're in a more competitive rate environment.
Speaker Change: Effectively it creates more competition too.
Speaker Change: What we're doing in the market cooperating already.
Speaker Change: Like that side of the business more or do you like it less for it or does it not matter.
So where we do at <unk> or support MGE Aces, where theyre there they are accretive to the portfolios that we have and they're differentiating from the business.
Speaker Change: I think you've got to be kicked with Mg as you've got to be careful whether the market is in a good state of the markets in about eight giving your pen away as always.
Speaker Change: We already.
Speaker Change: Right, whether it's geographical.
Speaker Change: Something no one should take.
Speaker Change: Whether it's.
Speaker Change: Likely.
Speaker Change: The dynamics of the business.
Speaker Change: That said.
You know we would never.
Speaker Change: And usually they've got the distribution and the infrastructure to be able to capture and service that business that we simply don't have.
Speaker Change:
Really give our pen away to another to an MGA that does exactly what we do that doesn't add any value to our portfolio as our business and it effectively creates more competition too.
Speaker Change: And at least at this point are not willing to.
Speaker Change: Hum sort of investing.
Speaker Change: Hum, what we're doing or in the markets cooperating already so where we do at <unk> or support MGE Aces, where they're they're they're accretive to the portfolios that we have and they're differentiating from the business that we already are.
Speaker Change: So.
Speaker Change: Hard market soft market, you've got to be careful, but if you find the right niche opportunities.
Speaker Change: Then then then then absolutely we will.
Speaker Change: We will continue to support <unk> and that is part of the plan.
Speaker Change: Right, whether it's geographical.
Speaker Change: We've beefed up our internal dedicated authority oversight function.
Speaker Change: Whether it's.
Speaker Change: The dynamics of the business.
Speaker Change: Hum.
Speaker Change: And ensuring that.
Speaker Change: And usually they've got the distribution and the infrastructure to be able to capture and service that business that we simply don't have.
Speaker Change: And that push.
Speaker Change: Towards.
Speaker Change: Finding and targeting and finding.
Speaker Change: New portfolios of business.
Speaker Change: And at least at this point are not willing to.
Speaker Change: We've got the infrastructure.
Speaker Change: Sort of investing.
Speaker Change: And we are ready to fully.
Speaker Change: So hum hard market soft market, you've got to be careful but if you find the right niche opportunities. Then then then then absolutely we will we will.
Speaker Change: Stay on top of that services and.
Speaker Change: And insure.
Speaker Change: It doesn't go wrong.
Speaker Change: Okay. Thank you I appreciate your answers there.
Speaker Change: Often maybe come back if there's time I appreciate it thanks for that.
<unk> to support <unk> and that is part of the plan you know, we've beefed up our internal dedicated authority oversight function.
Michael Phillips: Thanks, Mike.
Speaker Change: And the next question comes from Scott Linea <unk> with RBC capital markets. Please go ahead.
Speaker Change: And ensuring that.
Scott Linea: Yeah. Thanks. Good morning, just the first question was just on the core loss ratio continues to be excellent.
Speaker Change: And that push.
Speaker Change: Towards.
Speaker Change: Finding and targeting and finding.
Scott Linea: Profitable at lower than what other specialty peers are seeing I know you don't have the U S long tail exposure of social inflation.
Speaker Change: New portfolios of business.
Speaker Change: We've got the infrastructure.
Speaker Change: And we're ready to fully.
Scott Linea: I definitely get that but.
Speaker Change: Stay on top of that services.
Scott Linea: Is there anything else you can point to on why that continues to track so much lower than peers and there is there anything youre seeing on the loss trend front as well on your your long tail book.
Speaker Change: Sure.
Speaker Change:
Speaker Change: It doesn't go wrong.
Speaker Change: Okay. Thank you I appreciate your answers there willing ill.
Speaker Change: Ill hop off and maybe come back if there's time I appreciate it thanks for that.
Scott Linea: It would be it would be helpful.
Scott Linea: Sure.
Scott Linea: Yeah.
Lee: Thanks Lee.
Scott Linea: Hi, Scott Thanks for the question.
Speaker Change: And the next question comes from Scott Linea <unk> with RBC capital markets. Please go ahead.
Scott Linea: Okay.
Scott Linea: Excuse me.
Scott Linea: I don't I don't think it's I mean.
Scott Linea: Yeah. Thanks, Good morning, just.
Scott Linea: The first question was just on the core loss ratio continues to be excellent.
Scott Linea: Yeah.
Scott Linea: They don't necessarily have an answer to why we continue to track better than others. I think it's just the our approach to the business and our focus on bottom line.
Scott Linea: Very profitable at lower than what other specialty peers are seeing I know you don't have the U S long tail exposure of social inflation.
Scott Linea: You will note that.
Scott Linea: Practically most if not all of our competition has grown top line.
Scott Linea: I definitely get that but.
Scott Linea: Is there anything else you can point to on why that continues to track so much lower than peers and there is there anything you're seeing on the loss trend front as well on your your long tail book.
Scott Linea: In bigger ways, and then we have especially in 2020.
Scott Linea: Four.
Scott Linea: You know.
Scott Linea: You've just got to do what's best for our.
Scott Linea: It would be it would be helpful.
Scott Linea: Sure.
Scott Linea: Yourself.
Scott Linea: Yeah.
Scott Linea: Yeah.
Scott Linea: I think that being said, yes, there has been a more competitive environment.
Scott Linea: Hi, Scott Thanks for the question.
Scott Linea: The rates that are flowing through the financials now are predominantly from the back years when the rates were.
Scott Linea: Okay.
Scott Linea: Excuse me.
Scott Linea: I don't I don't think it's I mean.
Scott Linea: Stronger than they are so that's great.
Scott Linea: No.
Scott Linea: They don't necessarily have an answer to why we continue to track better than others. I think it's just the our approach to the business and our focus on bottom line.
Scott Linea: But honestly I think it's just all down to discipline and adjusting shifting focus and.
Scott Linea: Aviation is a good example, where we.
Scott Linea: You will note that frac.
Scott Linea: We've said now for a good.
Scott Linea: Practically most if not all of our competition has grown top line.
Scott Linea: Four to six quarters.
Scott Linea: That the.
In bigger ways, and then than we have especially in 2020.
Scott Linea: The market the landscape is.
Scott Linea: Four.
Scott Linea: As highly inadequate.
Scott Linea: I think you know.
Scott Linea: And as a result.
Scott Linea: You've just got to do what's best for them.
Scott Linea: Contracted the book by 25% in 2024 on top of 10% to 15% contraction in 2020.
Scott Linea: Yourself.
Scott Linea: I think that being said, yes, there has been a more competitive environment.
Scott Linea: The rates that are flowing through the financials now are predominantly from the back years when the rates were still stronger than they are so that that's great.
Scott Linea: Three.
Scott Linea: And you've got to be able to do that.
Scott Linea: And then shift focus you've seen the growth in our treaty portfolio, where the market market spend a lot more.
Scott Linea: But honestly I think it's just all down to discipline and adjusting shifting focus you know.
Scott Linea: <unk> and <unk>.
Scott Linea: Aviation is a good example, where.
Scott Linea: We doubled the book in 2023 increased by more than 35% again.
Scott Linea: We've said now for a good.
Scott Linea: Four to six quarters.
Scott Linea: The.
Scott Linea: Last year, so it's just being as opportunistic as you can and focusing your attention on those areas, where you think or what.
Scott Linea: That's the.
Scott Linea: The market the landscape is.
Scott Linea: His highly inadequate.
Scott Linea: We think.
Scott Linea: And and you know as a result, we've.
Scott Linea: Sure.
Scott Linea: Returns are going to be.
Scott Linea: So contracted the book by 25% in 2024 on top of a 10% to 15% contraction in 2020.
Scott Linea: How's this.
Scott Linea: There is no it's not.
Scott Linea: It really isn't rocket science, what we do I'm going to just really being patient being disciplined and and and not putting it.
Three and you've got to be able to do that.
Scott Linea: Not putting yourself under pressure too.
Scott Linea: And then shift focus you've seen the growth in our treaty portfolio, where the market market spend a lot more.
Scott Linea: To grow.
Scott Linea: Cause that especially.
Scott Linea: In the market that we're in at the moment.
Scott Linea: Attractive.
Scott Linea: And.
Scott Linea: Hum.
Scott Linea: We doubled the book in 2014 23 <unk>.
Scott Linea: Can be very detrimental.
Scott Linea: That being said, we've spoken about the losses everybody's focused on California.
Scott Linea: Increased it by more than 35% again.
Scott Linea: Last year, so it's just being as opportunistic as you can and focusing your attention on those areas, where you think or where we think.
Scott Linea: But theres been a lot of other risk classes across.
Scott Linea: The piece some in the U S. Some in Europe.
Scott Linea: A little bit.
Scott Linea: [noise] returns are going to be a healthy as you know theres no its not.
Scott Linea: In Asia.
Scott Linea: And.
Scott Linea: And.
Scott Linea: Hopefully these.
Scott Linea: It really is it's rocket science, what we do I mean, it's just really being patient being disciplined.
Scott Linea: These will focus the mind.
Scott Linea: And maybe.
Scott Linea: And and and not putting it.
Scott Linea: Get more discipline back into the.
Scott Linea: Not putting yourself under pressure to two.
Scott Linea: And to the market and remind people that.
Scott Linea: To grow cause that especially.
Scott Linea: Our business is.
Scott Linea: The business of taking risk and the risk is expensive.
Scott Linea: And the market that we're in at the moment.
Scott Linea: Hum.
Scott Linea: Can be.
Scott Linea: Could can be very detrimental.
Scott Linea: No that makes sense.
Scott Linea: That being said, we've spoken about the losses everybody's focused on California.
Scott Linea: Magnitude spring speaks to how you feel about the the growth you've seen in the U S and Europe business over the past couple of years that that would I would imagine would be reflected in those core loss ratios that you feel pretty good about that profitability as well as that.
Scott Linea: But theres been a lot of other risk classes across the piece some in the U S. Some in Europe.
Scott Linea: A little bit in <unk>.
Scott Linea: In Asia.
Scott Linea: Fair statement too.
Scott Linea: And.
Scott Linea: Yeah, Yeah, I think so I mean, I mean at the end.
Scott Linea: And you know hopefully these.
Scott Linea: I mean, we are seeing Europe.
Scott Linea: These will focus the mind and maybe.
Scott Linea: Europe has always been a tough market right is dominated by the local large European continental players so getting into Europe.
Scott Linea: Get more discipline back into the.
Scott Linea: And to the market and to remind people that.
Scott Linea: Is.
Scott Linea: The bigger challenge in.
Scott Linea: Our business is the.
Scott Linea: In my opinion.
Scott Linea: Business of taking risk and risk is expensive.
Scott Linea: But we're on our way.
Scott Linea: To do that we make progress year after year.
Scott Linea: Or can be.
Scott Linea: Yeah, no that makes sense order of magnitude Sprague speaks to how you feel about the the growth you've seen in the U S and Europe business over the past couple of years, it's that that would work.
And we're very pleased with where we are today and where we're headed.
Scott Linea: The U S. I mean, when we entered the U S market, who was highly dislocated our timing was very.
Scott Linea: Imagine would be reflected in those core loss ratios that you feel pretty good about that profitability as well is that.
Scott Linea: Advantageous.
Scott Linea: As an underwriter.
Scott Linea: But we're wary of the risks that come.
Speaker Change: Very fair statement too.
Scott Linea: Yeah, Yeah, I think so I mean, I mean at the end.
Scott Linea: And writing business in the U S.
Scott Linea: Albeit.
Scott Linea: I mean, we are seeing for Europe has always been a tough market right is dominated by the local large European continental players.
It does not include long tailed lines.
Scott Linea: We've grown that book over the last five years gradually methodically, it's now a 120 million odd portfolio, which as I said earlier.
Scott Linea: So getting into Europe is as is.
Scott Linea: The bigger challenge is to.
Scott Linea: In my opinion.
Scott Linea: Very small compared to.
Scott Linea: But we're on our way.
Scott Linea: To do that we make progress year after year.
Scott Linea: The size of the market.
Scott Linea: Overall, the market is becoming more competitive but I think again as we've always said, it's not about rate movements is about rate adequacy.
Scott Linea: And we're very pleased with where we are today and where we're headed.
Scott Linea: The U S. I mean, when we entered the U S market, who was highly dislocated our timing was very good.
Scott Linea: And in most areas is still.
Scott Linea: Relatively adequate and as long as it has been.
Scott Linea: Advantageous as an underwriter.
Scott Linea: We will continue to pursue growth.
Scott Linea: We're wary of the risks that come.
Scott Linea: Those are in those markets.
Scott Linea: In writing business in the U S.
Scott Linea: Okay, Great and then just wondering if you could talk about just comment on what you're seeing on the pricing environment I think we're all.
Scott Linea: Albeit you know it's it's.
Scott Linea: It does not include a long tailed lines.
Scott Linea: We've grown that book over the last five years gradually methodically, it's now 120 million odd portfolio, which as I said earlier.
Scott Linea: Most people on the call are pretty aware of what's happening in the U S pricing environment.
Scott Linea: Just in some of your other markets Europe Middle East Asia.
Just expand on on kind of what you're seeing or rates.
Scott Linea: Very small compared to.
Scott Linea: The size of the market.
Scott Linea: Our rates up or down or flattish just.
Scott Linea: Overall, the market is becoming more competitive but I think again as we've always said, it's not about rate movements is about rate adequacy.
Scott Linea: Generally speaking I know you mentioned also you see new business opportunities.
Scott Linea: Outside of the U S. If you can balance that with the rate commentary with with the growth opportunities there outside of the U S.
Scott Linea: And in most areas is still.
Scott Linea: Relatively adequate and as long as it has been.
Scott Linea: Yes, I think I think if you look at the markets outside of the U S. I mean, our biggest markets our Europe, the middle East and Asia.
Scott Linea: We will continue to pursue growth.
Scott Linea: Those are in those markets.
Scott Linea: Okay, Great and then just wondering if you could talk about just comment on what you're seeing on the pricing environment I think we're all.
Scott Linea: Bryan So as you mentioned I mean, each one has its own dynamics I mean, Europe is a big market is a big continent. So it.
Scott Linea: Probably most people on the call are pretty aware of what's happening in the U S pricing environment.
Scott Linea: It varies by country and it varies by.
Scott Linea: There's just so many other markets Europe Middle East Asia.
Scott Linea: By line of business.
Scott Linea: Just expand on.
Scott Linea: I would say that.
Scott Linea: Kind of what you're seeing or are rates.
Scott Linea: It's pretty much in line with what Youre seeing everywhere else.
Scott Linea: Our rates up or down or flattish just kind of generally speaking I know you mentioned also you see new business opportunities and you know kind of outside of the U S. If you can balance that with the you know the rate commentary with with the growth opportunities there outside of the U S.
Scott Linea: I think the long tail lines, they are getting tougher, but it's good business still there.
Scott Linea: Short tail lines.
Scott Linea: In the reinsurance will move in tandem with the.
Scott Linea: With the global markets, especially with the business. So we're trying to capture or do capture which is a larger and larger.
Scott Linea: Yeah, I think I think if you look at the markets outside of the U S. I mean, our biggest markets our Europe, the middle East and Asia.
Scott Linea: Business, I mean for middle East and Asia, definitely getting more competitive as well.
Scott Linea: Uh huh.
Speaker Change: Bryan So as you mentioned I mean, each one has its own dynamics I mean, Europe is a big market is a big continent Soto, yes, it varies by country and it varies by.
Scott Linea: It's pretty much in sync with what we're seeing.
Scott Linea: We're seeing generally across various lines.
Scott Linea: A business that being said there are areas as I mentioned earlier like construction engineering that we are extremely optimistic about.
Scott Linea: By line of business.
Speaker Change: I would say that.
Speaker Change: It's pretty much in line with what you're seeing everywhere else.
Scott Linea:
Speaker Change: I think the long tail lines, there are getting tougher, but it's it's good business still there.
Scott Linea: And I think the opportunity there we're only.
Scott Linea: Develop.
Scott Linea: Further in the coming quarters.
Speaker Change: You know a short tail lines.
Speaker Change: In the reinsurance will move in tandem with the with the global markets, especially with the business. So we're trying to capture or do capture which is a larger and larger.
Scott Linea: In years and the construction market engineering underwriting market has been one of the markets that has helped.
Most.
Scott Linea: Positively.
Speaker Change: Hum business.
Scott Linea: It has not come down in the same way that other lines of business have.
Speaker Change: For Middle East and Asia, definitely getting more competitive as well I mean, it's again, it's pretty much in sync with what we're seeing.
Scott Linea: That being said as I said earlier again I repeat.
Scott Linea: It's about right.
Speaker Change: What we're seeing generally across various lines.
Scott Linea: Adequacy and not rate movement and generally across the piece. The adequacy is still there in those geographical territories in those areas that we are.
Speaker Change: A business that being said there are areas as I mentioned earlier like construction engineering that we are extremely optimistic about.
Scott Linea: Are focusing on.
Speaker Change: And I think the opportunity there we're only.
Scott Linea: Growth will be tougher because.
Scott Linea: Theres more competition, there's more capacity, there's more hunger youre not benefiting from rate increases that you benefited from.
Speaker Change: Develop.
Speaker Change: Further in the coming quarters.
Speaker Change: In years and the construction market in engineering underwriting market has been one of the markets that has helped.
Scott Linea: 234 years ago.
Scott Linea: And that's the that's hence the comments I made earlier about having to work harder to find the business.
Speaker Change: <unk>.
Speaker Change: Positively and.
Speaker Change: It has not come down in the same way that other lines of business have.
Scott Linea: And we will so.
Scott Linea: It's managing the market managed through the cycle nothing new.
Speaker Change: That being said as I said earlier again I repeat.
Scott Linea: Been there before and.
Speaker Change: It's about rate adequacy.
Speaker Change: Adequacy and not rate movements.
Scott Linea: We will do what we need to do to the best of our ability.
Speaker Change: And generally across the piece the adequacy is still there in those geographical territories in those areas that we are.
Speaker Change: Okay. That's great color just one last one I didn't see any mention of hurricane Belton losses did you have any any losses.
Speaker Change: Are focusing on.
Scott Linea: And if so are you able to share what those were.
Speaker Change: Growth will be tougher because of that.
Speaker Change: Milton was negligible to us.
Speaker Change: Theres more competition, there's more capacity there's more hunger.
Scott Linea: That's why we didn't even mentioned.
Speaker Change: Benefiting from rate increases that you benefited from you know too.
Scott Linea: Not really worth mentioning.
Speaker Change: So.
Speaker Change: Two or three or four years ago.
Speaker Change: Yeah.
Speaker Change: It was.
Speaker Change: And that's the that's hence the comments I made earlier about having to work harder to find the business and we will so you know it's it's.
Speaker Change: There was nothing.
Speaker Change: Okay. Thanks for all the answers.
Speaker Change: Thanks Scott.
Speaker Change: This concludes our question and answer session I would like to turn the conference back over to management for any closing remarks.
Speaker Change: Managing the market managed through the cycle nothing new.
Speaker Change: In there before.
Speaker Change: And we will do what we need to do to the best of our ability.
Speaker Change: Just a quick thank you for all to all of you for joining us today and thanks of course as always for your continued support of <unk>.
Speaker Change: Okay got it that's great color just one last one I didn't see any mention of Hurricane Belton losses did you have any any losses in our and if so are you able to share what those were.
Speaker Change: As always if you have any additional questions. Please get in touch with Robin.
Speaker Change: And she'll be happy to assist.
Speaker Change: Milton was negligible to us.
Speaker Change: Thanks, again, and we look forward to speaking with you on next quarters call have a good day everyone.
Speaker Change: That's why I didn't even mention it.
Speaker Change: It's not really worth mentioning.
Speaker Change: So.
Speaker Change: Yeah.
Speaker Change: Yeah.
Speaker Change: Was.
Speaker Change: The conference has now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation you may now disconnect.
Speaker Change: There was nothing.
Speaker Change: Yep Okay.
Speaker Change: For all the answers.
Speaker Change: Thanks Scott.
Speaker Change: This concludes our question and answer session I would like to turn the conference back over to management for any closing remarks.
Speaker Change: Just a quick thank you for all of them to all of you for joining us today and thanks of course as always for your continued support of <unk>.
Speaker Change: As always if you have any additional questions. Please get in touch with Robin.
Speaker Change: And she'll be happy to assist.
Speaker Change: Thanks, again, and we look forward to speaking with you on next quarters call.
Speaker Change: Have a good day everyone.
Speaker Change: Yeah.
Speaker Change: The conference has now concluded. Thank you for attending today's presentation you may now disconnect.
Speaker Change: Oh right.
Speaker Change: [noise].