Q4 2024 ZipRecruiter Inc Earnings Call
Core earnings conference call all lines have been placed on mute to prevent any background noise. After the speakers' remarks, there will be a question and answer session. If you'd like to ask a question. During this time simply press Star then the number one on your telephone keypad to withdraw your question Press Star One again, we ask that you. Please limit your.
Regina: Hello, and thank you for standing by. My name is Regina, and I will be your conference operator today. At this time, I would like to welcome everyone to the ZipRecruiter, Inc. Fourth Quarter 2024 Earnings Conference Call. All lines have been placed on mute to prevent any background noise.
<unk> to one and one follow up I would now like to turn the conference over to drew Haroldson Investor Relations. Please go ahead.
Drew Haroldson: Thank you operator and good afternoon. Thank you for joining us on our earnings conference call during which we will discuss <unk> performance for the quarter and year ended December 31, 2024 and guidance for the first quarter 2025, joining me on the call today are Ian Siegel co founder and CEO, David <unk>, President and Timmy Andre CFO before we begin please.
Drew Haroldson: Be reminded that forward looking statements made today are subject to risks and uncertainties relating to future events or the future financial performance of <unk> actual results could differ materially from those anticipated in these forward looking statements.
Drew Haroldson: A discussion of some of the risk factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from any forward looking statements can be found in <unk> annual report on Form 10-K for the year ended December 31, 2024, which is available on our investor website and the Sec's website. The forward looking statements. In this conference call are based on current expectations as of today and ZIP recruiter assumes no obligation to.
Drew Haroldson: Update or revise them, whether as a result of new developments or otherwise.
Drew Haroldson: In addition, during today's call we will discuss non-GAAP financial measures. These non-GAAP financial measures should be considered in addition to not as a.
Drew Haroldson: Substitute for or in isolation from GAAP results reconciliations of the non-GAAP metrics to the nearest GAAP metrics are included in ZIP recruiters shareholder letter and in our Form 10-K, and now I will turn the call over to Ian.
Ian Siegel: Thank you and good afternoon to everyone joining us today.
Speaker Change: In addition, during today's call we will discuss non-GAAP financial measures. These non-GAAP financial measures should be considered in addition to not as a substitute for or in isolation from GAAP results reconciliations of the non-GAAP metrics to the nearest GAAP metrics are included in the ZIP brokerage as shareholder letter and in our Form 10-K.
Ian Siegel: Zipper Critter our mission is to actively connect people to their next great opportunity. We accomplish this with products that reduce friction in the job search process and speed up the time to hire.
Ian Siegel: While the labor market environment over the past few years has been challenging we believe ZIP recruiters growing jobseeker traffic number one rated mobile app proprietary data, we used to train our matching algorithms and strong brand recognition position us to grow our market share over the long term as the U S labor market.
Ian: Now I will turn the call over to Ian.
Ian: Thank you and good afternoon to everyone joining us today.
Ian: <unk> our mission is to actively connect people to their next great opportunity. We accomplished this with products that reduce friction in the job search process and speed up the time to hire.
Ian Siegel: <unk>.
Ian Siegel: In 2024, ZIP recruiter delivered multiple major customer impacting improvements to the service. These improvements included new product launches advancements to our existing products and leveraging M&A as a tool to expand our product suite.
Ian: Well the labor market environment over the past few years has been challenging we believe zipper critter is growing jobseeker traffic number one rated mobile app proprietary data, we used to train our matching algorithms and strong brand recognition.
Ian: And that is to grow our market share over the long term as the U S labor market recovers.
Ian Siegel: Highlights include the launch of ZIP intro, which allows employers to talk face to face with vetted candidates within 24 hours of posting a job.
Ian: In 2024, ZIP recruiter delivered multiple major customer impacting improvements to service. These improvements included new product launches advancements to our existing products and leveraging M&A as a tool to expand our product suite.
Ian Siegel: Launch of our next generation resume database, which had an immediate impact on customer satisfaction product usage and new customer adoption and finally, the acquisition of break room and employer ratings site in the UK. The deal was completed in the initial U S rollout of the service is well underway.
Ian: Highlights include the launch of ZIP intro, which allows employers to talk face to face with embedded candidates within 24 hours of posting a job.
Ian Siegel: The steady drumbeat of product improvements has been noticed by job seekers total web traffic in Q4 of 2024 grew by 15% year over year, which is at least 10 percentage points more than any of our largest competitors.
Ian: Launch of our next generation resume database, which had an immediate impact on customer satisfaction product usage and new customer adoption and finally, the acquisition of break room and employer rating site in the U K. The deal was completed in the initial U S rollout of the service is well underway.
Ian Siegel: We believe that market share shifts and job secret traffic will over time be followed by market share shifts and employer revenue dollars.
Ian: The steady drumbeat of product improvements has been noticed by job seekers total web traffic in Q4 of 2024 grew by 15% year over year, which is at least 10 percentage points more than any of our largest competitors. We believe that market share shifts and job seeker traffic will over time be followed by <unk>.
Ian Siegel: We made these advancements while facing a difficult hiring environment.
Ian Siegel: Adjusted hires have declined on a year over year basis for 28 consecutive months to passing the great recession of 2008.
Ian Siegel: Fueling the decline is a steep drop in people quitting their jobs. The quick rate remains near its lowest level since 2015, excluding the onset of the Covid pandemic.
Ian: Share shifts and employer revenue dollars.
Ian: We made these advancements while facing a difficult hiring environment.
Ian Siegel: Against that that labor market backdrop, 2020 for revenue of $474 million declined 27% year over year.
Ian: Generally adjusted hires have declined on a year over year basis for 28 consecutive months, surpassing the great recession of 2008.
Ian Siegel: However, our business remains resilient, we managed down operating expenses, while continuing to invest aggressively into improving the marketplace.
Ian: Fueling the decline is a steep drop in people quitting their jobs. The quick rate remains near its lowest level since 2015, excluding the onset of the Covid pandemic.
Ian Siegel: Adjusted EBITDA was $78 million equating to a 16% adjusted EBITDA margin, which was towards the higher end of expectations. We set earlier in 2024.
Ian: That labor market backdrop, 2020 for revenue of 474 million declined 27% year over year.
Ian Siegel: Net loss in 2024 was $12 9 million.
Ian: However, our business remains resilient, we managed down operating expenses, while continuing to invest aggressively into improving the marketplace. Adjusted EBITDA was $78 million equating to a 16% adjusted EBITDA margin, which was towards the higher end of expectations. We set earlier in 2024.
Ian Siegel: Despite the protracted labor market downturn, we enter 2025 with cautious optimism from both internal and external indicators.
Ian Siegel: Small business optimism index in December posted its highest reading since October of 2018, which can be a leading indicator for employer hiring plans. There are other encouraging underlying signs internally such as an uptick in employer account reactivation.
Ian: Net loss in 2024 was $12 9 million.
Ian: Despite the protracted labor market downturn, we enter 2025 with cautious optimism from both internal and external indicators.
Ian Siegel: Our Q1 revenue guidance of $109 million at the midpoint is down only 2% sequentially versus Q4 of 24 that contrast, with sequential declines of 13% in Q1 of 2023 and 10% in Q1 of 2024.
Ian: NFIB small business optimism index in December posted its highest reading since October of 2018, which can be a leading indicator for employer hiring plans. There are other encouraging underlying signs internally such as an uptick in employer account reactivation.
Ian Siegel: Despite these positive signals business uncertainty lingers over employer hiring plans.
Ian: Our Q1 revenue guidance of $109 million at the midpoint is down only 2% sequentially versus Q4 dollars 24 that contrast, with sequential declines of 13% in Q1 of 2023 and 10% in Q1 of 2024.
Ian Siegel: We will continue to let data guide our decision, making and are poised to increase investment in ROI positive sales and marketing initiatives with a recovery in hiring activity.
Ian Siegel: Throughout labor market cycles, our mission remains the foundation of our strategy, we relentlessly improve our ability to actively connect people to their next great opportunity I.
Ian: Despite these positive signals business uncertainty lingers over employer hiring plans, we will continue to let data guide our decision, making and are poised to increase investment in ROI positive sales and marketing initiatives with a recovery in hiring activity.
Ian Siegel: I will now turn the call over to Dave to share our business highlights Dave.
Ian Siegel: Thank you Ian and good afternoon.
Speaker Change: As Ian touched on we've made substantial improvements in our marketplace. Despite the historic Liberal market downturn I'll highlight just a few.
Ian: Throughout labor market cycles, our mission remains the foundation of our strategy.
Speaker Change: First we are encouraged by the share gains and Jobseeker traffic a proof point that our strategy is working in 2024 ZIP recruiter web traffic grew by 19% year over year.
Leslie: Leslie improve our ability to actively connect people to their next great opportunity.
Leslie: I will now turn the call over to Dave to share our business highlights Dave.
Dave: Thank you Ian and good afternoon.
Speaker Change: This growth was driven by 30% growth inorganic job seeker visits in 2024, we attribute these gains not only to our focus on delivering a superior product, but also our strong brand awareness, we firmly believe that employer job advertising dollars will follow with Jobseeker traffic overtime.
Dave: As Ian touched on we've made substantial improvements in our marketplace. Despite the historic labor market downturn I'll highlight just a few.
Dave: First we are encouraged by the share gains and Jobseeker traffic a proof point that our strategy is working in 2024 ZIP recruiter web traffic grew by 19% year over year.
Speaker Change: Turning to product.
Speaker Change: Following our Q3 acquisition of break room, a frontline worker focused employer review site. We began our initial rollout in United States in Q4, using the data we've collected from reviews, we've published over 500 employer pages as of February 2025.
Dave: This growth was driven by 30% growth in organic job seekers visits in 2024.
Dave: We attribute these gains not only to our focus on delivering a superior product, but also our strong brand awareness, we firmly believe that employer job advertising dollars will follow jobseeker traffic over time.
Speaker Change: These pages provide jobseekers with a rich set of data, helping them to better understand what it's really like to work with many of the largest companies in the U S.
Dave: Turning to product.
Dave: Following our Q3 acquisition of break room, a frontline worker focused employer review site. We began our initial rollout in United States in Q4, using the data we've collected from reviews, we've published over 500 employer pages as of February 2025.
Speaker Change: We also saw momentum with our next generation resume database, which helps employers find candidates in minutes.
Speaker Change: Layers are recognizing the value of these new and improved features such as cutting edge search and filtering capabilities and fresh workflow management tools, we've seen a double digit percentage increase in both the number of employers who are using the revenue database for the first time.
Dave: These pages provide jobseekers with a rich set of data, helping them to better understand what it's really like to work at many of the largest companies in the U S.
Dave: We also saw momentum with our next generation resume database, which helps employers find candidates in minutes employers are recognizing the value of these new and improved features such as cutting edge search and filtering capabilities and fresh workflow management tools, we've seen a double digit percentage increase in <unk>.
Speaker Change: And in the average number of resumes unlocks for already be users.
Speaker Change: Reception does it been through also remains strong and is driving more face to face connections.
Speaker Change: Has it been through enables employers to hire faster than ever before with most employers receiving the first application.
Dave: Both the number of employers who are using the resume database for the first time.
Speaker Change: 20 minutes utilization or has it been through continues to increase and we continue to see strong satisfaction with both employers and job seekers.
Dave: And in the average number of resumes unlocks for RVP users.
Dave: Reception does it been true also remains strong and is driving more face to face connections.
Speaker Change: In Q4, we also continued to make it easier for job seekers to apply to jobs, while staying in our marketplace through applicant tracking system integrations.
Dave: ZIP intra enables employers to hire faster than ever before with most employers receiving the first application under 20 minutes utilization or has it been through continues to increase and we continue to see strong satisfaction with both employers and job seekers.
Speaker Change: This quarter, we've launched such an integration with paradox, giving even more employers access to <unk> Ziff implied a frictionless application process job seekers can access from any device that saves an average of 30 minutes of application.
Dave: In Q4, we also continued to make it easier for job seekers to apply the jobs, while staying in our marketplace through applicant tracking system integrations. This quarter, we launched such an integration with paradox, giving even more employers access to ziff implied a frictionless application process job seekers can access.
Speaker Change: Employers, who use them apply receive three times more applications for their rules.
Speaker Change: ZIP recruiters over 180 applicant tracking system integrations are an investment a decade in the making.
Speaker Change: Resulting in a more seamless experience for employers and job seekers alike.
Dave: <unk> from any device that saves an average of 30 minutes of application.
Speaker Change: I'll now turn the call over to Tim to review financial results and guidance Tim.
Dave: Employers, who use them apply receive three times more applications for their roles.
Tim: Thank you, Dave and good afternoon, everyone, our fourth quarter revenue of $111 million, representing 18% decline year over year and is down 5% quarter over quarter. The decrease year over year is primarily due to continued softness in hiring demand while the quarter over quarter decrease was consistent with seasonal hiring patterns in the fourth.
Dave: ZIP recruiters over 180 applicant tracking system integrations are an investment a decade and we're making.
Dave: Resulting in a more seamless experience for employers and Jobseekers alike.
Dave: I'll now turn the call over to Tim to review financial results and guidance Tim.
Speaker Change: <unk>.
Speaker Change: Quarterly paid employers were 58000, representing an 18% decrease versus Q4, 'twenty, three and an 11% decrease sequentially the year over year and quarter over quarter decreases are primarily reflective of reduced demand from smbs, which comprise the majority of our quarterly paid employers and the continued uncertainty and volatility of the labor market.
Tim: Thank you, Dave and good afternoon, everyone, our fourth quarter revenue of $111 million, representing 18% decline year over year and is down 5% quarter over quarter. The decrease year over year is primarily due to continued softness in hiring demand while the quarter over quarter decrease was consistent with seasonal hiring patterns in the fourth.
Speaker Change: Revenue per paid employer was $1920 roughly flat year over year and up 7% sequentially.
Dave: <unk>.
Dave: Quarterly paid employers were 58000, representing an 18% decrease versus Q4 dollars 23, and an 11% decrease sequentially the year over year and quarter over quarter decreases are primarily reflective of reduced demand from smbs, which comprise the majority of our quarterly paid employers and the continued uncertainty and volatility of the labor market.
Speaker Change: <unk> over quarter increase was primarily due to the slight mix shift from subscription revenue to performance revenue.
Speaker Change: Net loss in the fourth quarter was $10 8 million compared to net income of $5 6 million in Q4, 23, and a net loss of $2 6 million in Q3 dollars 24.
Dave: Revenue per paid employer was $1920 roughly flat year over year and up 7% sequentially.
Speaker Change: Q4, 24, adjusted EBITDA was $14 $4 million equating to a margin of 13% compared to $42 4 million a margin of 31% in Q4, 'twenty, three and $15 million with a margin of 13% in Q3 dollars 24.
Dave: Over quarter increase was primarily due to the slight mix shift from subscription revenue to performance revenue.
Dave: Net loss in the fourth quarter was $10 8 million compared to net income of $5 6 million in Q4, 'twenty three and a net loss of $2 6 million in Q3 dollars 24.
Speaker Change: Net income and adjusted EBITDA decreases both year over year and quarter over quarter were driven by revenue declines.
Speaker Change: To reiterate our prior point, our full year adjusted EBITDA margin of 16% was towards the high end of the low to mid teens adjusted EBITDA margin range, we shared at the beginning of the year.
Dave: Q4, 24, adjusted EBITDA was $14 $4 million equating to a margin of 13% compared to $42 $4 million and margin of 31% in Q4, 'twenty, three and $15 million with a margin of 13% in Q3 dollars 24.
Speaker Change: Cash cash equivalents in marketable securities was $506 million as of December 31, 2024.
Dave: Net income and adjusted EBITDA decreases both year over year and quarter over quarter were driven by revenue declines to reiterate a prior point our full year adjusted EBITDA margin of 16% was towards the high end of the low to mid teens adjusted EBITDA margin range, we shared at the beginning of the year.
Speaker Change: Moving onto guidance, our Q1 dollars 25 revenue guidance of $109 million at the midpoint represents an 11% decline year over year, and a 2% decline quarter over quarter.
Year over year decline represents the continuation of the prolonged labor market downturn.
Dave: Cash cash equivalents in marketable securities was $506 million as of December 31, 2024.
Speaker Change: <unk> over quarter trend. However is reflective of a more typical seasonal pattern and would represent our strongest change in sequential revenue from Q4 to Q1 since 2022.
Dave: Moving onto guidance, our Q1, 'twenty five revenue guidance of $109 million at the midpoint represents an 11% decline year over year, and a 2% decline quarter over quarter.
Speaker Change: Additionally, we have seen favorable underlying trends in the business quarter to date, leaving us cautiously optimistic as we begin 2025.
Dave: The year over year decline represents the continuation of the prolonged labor market downturn.
Speaker Change: Our adjusted EBITDA guidance for Q1 dollars 25, its $5 million at the midpoint or 5% adjusted EBITDA margin embedded in this guidance are the year over year and sequential increase in sales and marketing dollars as we lean into the favorable trends, we have seen year to date.
Dave: Quarter over quarter trend. However is reflective of a more typical seasonal pattern and would represent our strongest change in sequential revenue from Q4 to Q1 since 2022.
Dave: Additionally, we have seen favorable underlying trends in the business quarter to date, leaving us cautiously optimistic as we begin 2025.
Speaker Change: Looking beyond Q1 qualitative improvement in sentiment from both employers in their marketplace and indicators from external data sources make us cautiously optimistic about the outlook for 2025. After the 28 months consecutive declining U S hiring activity.
Dave: Our adjusted EBITDA guidance for Q1 dollars $25 $5 million at the midpoint, we're 5% adjusted EBITDA margin embedded in this guidance are the year over year and sequential increase in sales and marketing dollars as we lean into the favorable trends, we have seen year to date.
Speaker Change: We remain ready for a wide range of macroeconomic scenarios current trends suggest employer sentiment may result in the beginning of the recovery and hiring activity over the coming year.
Dave: Looking beyond Q1 qualitative improvement in sentiment from both employers in their marketplace and indicators from external data sources make us cautiously optimistic about the outlook for 2025. After the 28 month consecutive decline in U S hiring activity.
Speaker Change: If these trends hold we believe a likely scenario will be achieving year over year quarterly revenue growth by Q4 'twenty five.
Speaker Change: Driven by the advances in our products and technology and increased opportunities for investment in ROI positive sales and marketing initiatives. In this scenario, we would expect to generate adjusted EBITDA margins in the mid single digits for 2025.
Dave: We remain ready for a wide range of macroeconomic scenarios current trends suggest employer sentiment may result in the beginnings of a recovery in hiring activity over the coming year.
Speaker Change: Conversely, if hiring demand further erodes in contrast to the positive sentiment. We've discussed earlier, we would adjust our operating expenses and generate higher adjusted EBIT margins consistent with our long standing and disciplined approach to managing the business through economic cycles.
Dave: If these trends hold we believe a likely scenario would be achieving year over year quarterly revenue growth by Q4 'twenty five.
Dave: Driven by the advances in our products and technology and increased opportunities for investment in ROI positive sales and marketing initiatives. In this scenario, we would expect to generate adjusted EBITDA margins in the mid single digits for 2025.
The positive initial signs we've seen in 2025 are encouraging and we remain confident in our long term growth opportunity, but the shape and timing of the eventual labor market recovery remains uncertain.
Dave: Conversely, if hiring demand further erodes in contrast to the positive sentiment. We've discussed earlier, we would adjust our operating expenses and generate higher adjusted EBIT margins consistent with our long standing and disciplined approach to managing the business through economic cycles.
Speaker Change: We believe our flexible operating model and healthy balance sheet position us to take advantage of the growth opportunities, while ensuring we're resilient in the face of uncertainty with that we can now open up the line for questions operator.
Dave: The positive initial signs we've seen in 2025 are encouraging and we remain confident in our long term growth opportunity, but the shape and timing of the eventual labor market recovery remains uncertain.
Speaker Change: At this time, if you'd like to ask a question simply press star followed by the number one on your telephone keypad. We ask that you. Please limit your questions to one and one follow up we'll take our first question from the line up Ralph <unk> with William Blair. Please go ahead.
Dave: We believe our flexible operating model and healthy balance sheet position us to take advantage of the growth opportunities, while ensuring we're resilient in the face of uncertainty with that we can now open up the line for questions operator.
Ralph: Good afternoon, thanks for taking the question.
Ralph: Like you're seeing some positive trends that you talked about.
Ralph: Quarter to date, maybe if you could just provide a little bit more color on that is it certain verticals youre seeing geographically base with broader base anything you could add on the reactivation, but I have a follow up with.
Dave: At this time I'd like to ask a question simply press star followed by the number one on your telephone keypad. We ask that you. Please limit your questions to one and one follow up we'll take our first question from the line up Ralph <unk> with William Blair. Please go ahead.
Ralph: Yeah, Hey, Rob this is Tim ill give a little color there so positive trends that we've seen so far really started.
Speaker Change: Good afternoon, thanks for taking the question.
Ralph: It sounds like you are seeing some positive trends that you talked about.
Rob: The back end of Q4 revenue came in better than guidance with the holiday season in particular doing a little bit better than expectations.
Ralph: To date, maybe if you could just provide a little bit more color on that is it certain verticals youre, saying, yeah. That's geographically base as a broader base anything you can add on the reactivation, but I have a follow up.
Rob: Then really since then we've seen paid employers in general, including the number of employees reactivating their talents picking up pretty meaningfully.
Ralph: Yeah, Hey, Rob This is Tim I'll give a little color there so positive trends that we've seen so far really started towards the backend of Q4 revenue came in better than guidance with the holiday season in particular doing a little bit better than expectations.
Rob: That.
Rob: Benefit or that trend has been really fairly widespread.
Rob: And all of these trends right now translate to our Q1 revenue guidance of 2% down at the midpoint and again like we pointed out on the call.
Ralph: And then really since then we've seen paint employers in general, including the number of employers reactivating their talents picking up pretty meaningfully and the.
Rob: In Stark contrast to the negative 10% and negative 13% trends that we've seen in 2023, respectively. So what we're seeing right now is more in line with normal seasonality rather than the trends that we've seen over the last two years.
Ralph: Benefits are that trend has been really fairly widespread.
Ralph: And all of these trends right now translate to our Q1 revenue guidance of 2% down at the midpoint and again like we pointed out in the call.
Rob: Right.
Rob: And I would just add that.
Rob: From external sources like the NFIB, where we're seeing an optimism index that's posting its highest reading since October of 2018, two internal sources, whether it's our sales team of our account management team, who talk to customers every day and so I've had a number of interactions with the sentiment.
Ralph: In Stark contrast to the negative 10% negative 30% trends that we've seen in 2423, respectively. So what we're seeing right now is more in line with normal seasonality rather than the trends that we've seen over the last two years. Yes. This is Ian and I would just add that.
Rob: And that we're getting from businesses with particularly strong relative to what we were experiencing throughout the year and in particular for Q4.
From external sources like the NFIB, where we're seeing an optimism index that's posting its highest reading since October of 2018, two internal sources, whether it's our sales team of our account management team, who talk to customers every day and who have had a number of interactions with the sentiment that.
Rob: Our business is historically seasonal in our lowest point in demand for hiring services is Q4, because everybody is effectively on holiday so to see strength. During this period is particularly noteworthy.
Ralph: We are getting from businesses is particularly strong relative to what we were experiencing throughout the year and in particular for Q4.
Speaker Change: Great if I could just add one more.
Speaker Change: On the guide for Q1 that reflects the margins coming down should we interpret that as youre investing in front of some of the trends that youre seeing.
Ralph: Our business is historically seasonal and the lowest point in demand for hiring services is Q4, because everybody is effectively on holiday so to see strength. During this period is particularly noteworthy.
Speaker Change: On the more optimistic side of feedback that you're hearing from your employers.
Speaker Change: That's exactly right, yes, so we let the data guide our decision, making on where we're making our sales and marketing investments in particular and so given the trends that we've seen it makes the most sense to us to lean into that.
Ralph: Great if I can just add one.
More.
Ralph: On the guide for Q1 that reflects the margins coming down should we interpret that as youre investing in front of some of the trends that youre seeing.
Speaker Change: Yeah.
Speaker Change: Our next question comes from the line of Josh Chan with UBS. Please go ahead.
Ralph: On the more optimistic side and the feedback that you're hearing from your.
Josh Chan: Hi, good afternoon, thanks for taking my questions.
Ralph: Myers.
Josh Chan: I was wondering on the more positive quarter to date trends.
Ralph: That's exactly right, yes, so we let the data guide our decision, making on where we're making our sales and marketing investments in particular and so given the trends that we've seen it makes the most sense to us to lean into that.
Josh Chan: Are you able to see the difference between sentiment improvement in which does seem to be a very widespread.
Josh Chan: Actionable behavior changes.
Ralph: Okay.
Our next question comes from the line of Josh Chan with UBS. Please go ahead.
Speaker Change: I guess im wondering whether re activations mean that customers are preparing to hire or whether you're actually seeing hiring activity actually.
Josh Chan: Hi, good afternoon, thanks for taking my questions.
Josh Chan: I was wondering on the more positive quarter to date trends.
Josh Chan: Increase as well.
Josh Chan: Are you able to see the difference between sentiment improvement in which does seem to be a very widespread.
Josh Chan: As we're going through the quarter here.
Josh Chan: Hey, Josh this is Tim so when we note that reactivation with yeah. These are high intent employers that are.
Josh Chan: Actionable behavior changes.
Josh Chan: I guess I'm wondering whether reactivation, it's mean that customers are preparing to hire or whether you're actually seeing hiring activity actually incur.
Reactivating in order to post a job.
Speaker Change: So our Q1 guidance embeds the actual behaviors that we're seeing today, but we've also been noting that positive sentiment over and above the actual behaviors that we're seeing today.
Josh Chan: The increase is worth.
Josh Chan: As we're going through the quarter here.
Josh Chan: Hey, Josh this is Tim so when we note that reactivation. Yeah. These are high intent employers that are.
Speaker Change: Okay, Great and then I guess on your commentary about the trajectory of revenue from here.
Speaker Change: Okay.
Josh Chan: Reactivating in order to post a job and so our Q1 guidance embeds the actual behaviors that we're seeing today.
Speaker Change: Right in interpreting that Youre kind of ruling out a return to revenue growth prior to Q4, even in a recovery scenario I just wanted to be clear, what what you're kind of signaling there with what that shape. Thank you.
Josh Chan: But we've also been noting that positive sentiment over and above the actual behaviors that we're seeing today.
Speaker Change: Yes, we think the positive sentiment that we're seeing right now is a precursor to an overall recovery in hiring we think year over year growth achieved by Q4.
Josh Chan: Okay, Great and then I guess on your commentary about the trajectory of revenue from here.
Josh Chan: Yes.
Josh Chan: I right in interpreting that Youre kind of ruling out a return to revenue growth prior to Q4, even in a recovery scenario I just wanted to be clear, what what you're kind of signaling there with that shape. Thank you.
Speaker Change: B.
Speaker Change: A likely scenario, but I think achieving it before Q4.
Speaker Change: There is less of a chance of that.
Robert Young: Our next question will come from the line of Robert Young with Barclays. Please go ahead.
Josh Chan: We think the positive sentiment that we're seeing right now is a precursor to an overall recovery in hiring we think year over year growth achieved by Q4.
Robert Young: Great. Thanks first one just on kind of the more downside scenario for the full year. If there were further deterioration and your commentary about adjusting opex accordingly would that imply EBITDA margins above that kind of mid single digit number that you were talking about in a recovery scenario.
Josh Chan: It would be.
Speaker Change: A likely scenario, but I think achieving it before Q4.
Josh Chan: I think there's less of a chance of that.
Trevor Young: Our next question will come from the line of Trevor Young with Barclays. Please go ahead.
Robert Young: To clarify on that and then second question on a category basis can you quantify how much exposure. If any you have directly to government hiring or indirectly through contractors and the like.
Trevor Young: Great. Thanks first one just on kind of the more downside scenario for the full year. If there were further deterioration.
Trevor Young: Your commentary about adjusting opex accordingly would that imply EBITA margins above that kind of mid single digit number that you were talking about in a recovery scenario just wanted to clarify on that and then second question on a category basis can you quantify how much exposure if any you have directly to government hiring.
Robert Young: Yes, so in the downside scenario.
Wed expect to generate higher adjusted EBITDA margins than we would in the upside scenario and thats pretty consistent with our operating approach, where when we see opportunities to invest and we do that and that means margins will be a little bit lower in the near and midterm, but where we see softness we pull back on expenses and generate higher margins.
Trevor Young: Our indirectly through contractors and alike.
Trevor Young: Thanks.
Trevor Young: Yes, so in the downside scenario, we would expect to generate higher adjusted EBITDA margins than we would in the upside scenario and thats pretty consistent with our operating approach, where when we see opportunities to invest and we do that that means margins will be a little bit lower in the near and midterm, but where we see.
Robert Young: And then to your question about government and contractor hiring if you will.
Robert Young: Look at the entirety of the U S.
Robert Young: Force about 3 million of the $160 million or so in the total labor force our federal government employees.
Trevor Young: Softness can you pull back on expenses and generate higher margins.
Robert Young: So.
Robert Young: As we've said before our our marketplace generally reflects the entirety of the U S economy. The one place where we notably have SKU is toward Smbs as opposed to enterprises and large federal agencies would be.
Trevor Young: And then to your question about government and contractor hiring.
Trevor Young: You look at the entirety of the U S Labor force about 3 million of the $160 million or so in the total labor force our federal government employees. So.
Robert Young: More like enterprises in our in the way, we think about the business. So the.
Robert Young: Difference in hiring.
Trevor Young: As we've said before our our marketplace generally reflects the entirety of the U S economy. The one place where we notably have SKU is toward Smbs as opposed to enterprises and large federal agencies would be.
Robert Young: Federal.
Robert Young: Workforce plan really is an outsized driver of our business.
Speaker Change: Our next question comes from the line of Doug Anmuth with Jpmorgan. Please go ahead.
Speaker Change: Great. Thanks, It's Brian Smith on for Doug can you just talk about the early traction with <unk> as well as the updated resume database release last quarter and how we should think about monetization of these services and.
Trevor Young: More like enterprises in our in the way, we think about the business. So the.
Trevor Young: Difference in hiring.
Trevor Young: Federal.
Trevor Young: Workforce plans really isn't the outsized driver of our business.
Speaker Change: And I guess separately could you just give more color on marketing by channel, we're going to lean in taxi acquire and reactivate some of these employers.
Speaker Change: Our next question comes from the line of Doug Anmuth with Jpmorgan. Please go ahead.
Speaker Change: Okay.
Speaker Change: Great. Thanks, It's Brian Smith on for Doug can you just talk about the early traction with ZIP and trial as well as the updated resume database release last quarter and how we should think about monetization of these services and.
Speaker Change: Hey.
Speaker Change: So zip intro.
Speaker Change: The new resume database a break from all of these features are designed to drive up engagement and when we think about what we're talking about is.
Speaker Change: And I guess separately can you just give more color on marketing by channel, we're going to lean in to actually acquire and reactivate some of these lawyers.
Speaker Change: Satisfying job seekers are job seekers, who wind up with an outcome, where they end up talking to the human and the best possible way.
Speaker Change: Okay.
Ian: This is Ian.
Speaker Change: John take a can talk to him is when an employer goes first.
Ian: The zip.
Ian: ZIP intro.
Speaker Change: With our resume database and players find people, who they're interested at and they reach out.
Ian: The new resume database a break from all of these features are designed to drive up engagement and when we say engagement, we're talking about is satish.
Speaker Change: Fantastic experience for any job seeker, who is recruited in such a fashion.
Claire: Claire is going first in expressing interest same thing for us that's been true for the <unk>.
Ian: Satisfy job seekers are job seekers, who wind up with an outcome, where they end up talking to a human in the best possible way a job seeker can talk to a human is when an employer goes first so with our resume database and players find people who they're interested at and they reach out that is a fantastic experience for any job seeker, who is recruited et cetera.
Speaker Change: <unk> identifies the type of candidate they want and then what.
Claire: They have created that profile.
Claire: Invites go out to the job seekers, who matched that profile, it's a very different onboarding experience to a job opportunity in doing a traditional search and finding a lifting in growing and applying there in the hopes that some of them will eventually look at it now that youre going to be talking to a human and then the fantastic thing is.
Ian: Fashion.
Ian: Layer is going first in expressing interest same thing for us that bench.
Ian: Employer identifies the type of candidate they want and then once they have created that profile invites go out to the job seekers, who match that profile. It's a very different onboarding experience to a job opportunity than doing a traditional search and finding a listing and Ron can apply them theyre in the hopes that some of them will eventually look at it.
Claire: In a very short period of time, usually within 24 hours or less with the job seeker actually talking to a human who is hiring and have an opportunity to see if it's a fit.
Claire: From a monetization standpoint.
Claire: Definitely see that there is a variety of ways that all of these features will contribute to our overall revenue mix over the mid and long term.
Ian: Now that youre going to be talking to him and then the fantastic thing is within a very short period of time, usually within 24 hours or less use of job seeker actually talking to a human who is hiring and have an opportunity to see if it's a fit.
Claire: Our philosophy, when we launch new products like this is to give value to the marketplace for us to grow adoption within the marketplace and appreciation for those features.
Ian: From a monetization standpoint, we definitely see that there is a variety of ways that all of these features will contribute to our overall revenue mix over the mid and long term.
Claire: It's as much about getting appreciation and adoption with employers as it is recognition from job seekers I think the evidence of the merit of that strategy is not just 15% quarter over quarter growth, we saw in job seeker volume.
Ian: Our philosophy, when we launched new products like this is to give value to the marketplace first to grow adoption within the marketplace and appreciation for those features.
Claire: At the end of 2024, but really the last two years, where we've been pursuing a strategy of a persistent drumbeat a cadence of new features that get used as a job seeker to a place where you are human talking to they came in and the way. We think about it is that all of this work that we're doing is trying to make you so much more.
Ian: It's as much about getting appreciation adoption with employers as it is recognition from job seekers I think the evidence of the merit of that strategy is not just 15% quarter over quarter growth, we saw in job seeker volume.
Claire: So that when you are doing a job fair times FERC figure every minute matters and I think based on how fast our traffic is growing that that is playing out.
Ian: At the end of 2024, but really the last two years, where we've been pursuing this strategy is a persistent drumbeat a cadence of new features that get us as a job seeker to a place where you are human talking to a human and the way. We think about it is that all of this work that we're doing is trying to make you so much more.
Speaker Change: Our next question will come from the line of Josh Beck at Raymond James. Please go ahead.
Josh Beck: Thanks for taking the question.
Ian: So that when you are doing a job search on zipper figure every minute matters and I think based on how fast our traffic is growing that that is playing out.
Josh Beck: Just wanted to go back to some of the macro data and you talked a little bit about.
Josh Beck: Quit rates seems like they certainly have come.
Josh Beck: Come down but are somewhat stabilizing.
Speaker Change: Our next question will come from the line of Josh Beck at Raymond James. Please go ahead.
Josh Beck: I.
Josh Beck: I don't know how much.
Josh Beck: Top down versus maybe your bottoms up forecast, but.
Josh Beck: Thanks for taking the question.
Josh Beck: Just wanted to go back to some of the macro data and you talked a little bit about.
Is that the right way to think about the macro backdrop for this year is kind of things don't really get that much worse than maybe stabilize to some degree on metrics like quit rate and higher rate.
Josh Beck: Quit rates it seems like they certainly have come down but our.
Josh Beck: Somewhat stabilizing.
Josh Beck: In.
Josh Beck: Hey, Josh this is Dave So first of all I think stabilization among quit rates from higher rates and things like that would be a big improvement over the past couple of years.
Josh Beck: I don't know how much is the.
Josh Beck: Top down versus maybe bottoms up forecast, but.
Josh Beck: Is that the right way to think about the macro backdrop for this year is kind of things don't really get that much worse than maybe stabilize to some degree on metrics like quit rate and higher rate.
Josh Beck: And so.
Josh Beck: Exactly what Youre, saying I think that's a very reasonable scenario.
Josh Beck: We're cautiously optimistic about.
Josh Beck: In terms of quick rate specifically.
Josh Beck: Hey, Josh This is David So first of all I think stabilization among quit rates and higher rates and things like that would be a big improvement over the past couple of years.
Josh Beck: The way, we think about hiring on a gross basis all the hires.
Josh Beck: $6 million or whatever per month on average that happen in the U S economy.
Josh Beck: And so.
Speaker Change: Exactly to what Youre, saying, I think thats, a very reasonable.
Josh Beck: 90, plus percent off of $95, 97% of those hires are to backfill somebody who quit or left and so that's the driving engine obviously.
Josh Beck: <unk>.
Josh Beck: One we're cautiously optimistic about.
Josh Beck: In terms of quick rate specifically.
Josh Beck: The way, we think about hiring on a gross basis all the hires.
Josh Beck: And the headlines a lot of coverage for good reason about net job growth of a few hundred thousand being a big deal in the economy and obviously over the long term those net.
Josh Beck: $6 million or whatever per month on average that happen in the U S economy.
Josh Beck: 90, plus percent off of $95, 97% of those hires are to backfill somebody who quit or left.
Josh Beck: But in any given month 90 plus percent of the hiring activity out there is driven by people, leaving their job and thats, primarily because people are quitting.
Josh Beck: So that's the driving engine, obviously, we see in the headlines a lot of coverage for good reason about net job growth of a few hundred thousand being a big deal in the economy and obviously over the long term those net.
Josh Beck: So going from the great resignation, a few years ago to the great stay has had a big impact on overall hiring activity and if we saw a stabilization this year, which we're cautiously optimistic about that would make a big difference versus the.
Josh Beck: Add up but in any given month 90 plus percent of the hiring activity out there is driven by people, leaving their job and thats, primarily because people are quitting.
Josh Beck: Precipitous declines we've seen over the past couple of years.
Josh Beck: Okay Super helpful. And then I know you already mentioned that.
Josh Beck: So going from the great resignation, a few years ago to the great stay has had a big impact on overall hiring activity and if we saw a stabilization this year, which we're cautiously optimistic about that would make a big difference versus the <unk>.
Josh Beck: The biggest skus is probably SMB versus.
Josh Beck: Enterprise.
Josh Beck: Call out.
Josh Beck: Around the technology vertical obviously that was one where.
Josh Beck: Probably in the enterprise layer, there was a big right sizing.
Josh Beck: But as declines we've seen over the past couple of years.
Josh Beck: Last couple of years and generally it seems like theres more hiring happening in the tech sector. There's obviously, some maybe exceptions around around coding and that kind of thing, but just any broad based observations that are that are notable within within tech flex.
Speaker Change: Okay Super helpful. And then I know you already mentioned that.
Josh Beck: The biggest skus is probably SMB versus enterprise, but any call out.
Speaker Change: Around the technology vertical obviously that was one where.
Speaker Change: At least probably in the enterprise layer, there was a big right sizing.
Josh Beck: Sure, Yes, so as we look across verticals, we're not over index to tax.
Speaker Change: The last couple of years and generally it seems like theres more hiring happening in the tech sector. Obviously, some maybe exceptions around around coding and that kind of thing, but just any broad based observations that are that are notable within within tech flex.
Josh Beck: One of the top 10 verticals, but by no means a big.
Josh Beck: Proportionate driver for us, but as we look out we see all the jobs and the economy effectively we're down a bit but nothing crazy over the past year, but in Q4 versus prior quarter Q3 sequentially. It was pretty stable impact, while we have not seen as the AI.
Sure, Yes, so as we look across verticals, we're not over index to tax.
Speaker Change: One of the top 10 verticals, but by no means a big.
Josh Beck: Hiring boom within tech take over the entire category.
Speaker Change: Disproportionate driver for us, but as we look out we see all the jobs in the economy effectively.
Josh Beck: We think of the definition of the tack a little bit beyond Silicon Valley.
Speaker Change: We're down a bit but nothing crazy over the past year, but in Q4.
Josh Beck: And so what we see is some recent signs of stability in tech, which is good news versus what we've seen over the past few years.
Speaker Change: <unk> prior quarter Q3 sequentially it was pretty stable in tech, while we have not seen as the.
Josh Beck: Okay Super helpful. Thank you.
Speaker Change: Hiring boom within tech take over the entire category as well.
Speaker Change: Our next question comes from the line of Mark Mahaney with Evercore. Please go ahead.
Speaker Change: We think of the definition to tack a little bit beyond Silicon Valley.
Mark Mahaney: Okay. Thanks, I wanted to ask two.
Mark Mahaney: Two questions, but first thanks for the.
Speaker Change: So what we see is some recent signs of stability in tech, which is good news versus what we've seen over the past few years.
Mark Mahaney: The guidance.
Mark Mahaney: Commentary for the full year in terms of.
Mark Mahaney: Our revenue recovery in EBITDA margins, that's Super helpful. I'll ask first about the cost structure and there are other a.
Speaker Change: Okay Super helpful. Thank you.
Speaker Change: Our next question comes from the line of Mark Mahaney with Evercore. Please go ahead.
Mark Mahaney: Variety of most scenarios is the cost structure, one that can be held or.
Mark Mahaney: Okay. Thanks, I wanted to ask.
Mark Mahaney: Just how much room, if things if we get a negative surprise.
Speaker Change: Two questions, but first thanks for the.
Speaker Change: The guidance.
Speaker Change: Commentary for the full year in terms of.
Ian Siegel: How much how much how much buffer do you think you have in your current cost structure to have the handle a negative surprise I'm sorry, that's all I wanted to frame it that way and then the question I want to ask to Ian is.
Speaker Change: Revenue recovery in EBITDA margin set super helpful I want to ask.
Speaker Change: First about the cost structure and there are under a.
Speaker Change: Variety of most scenarios is the cost structure, one that can be held or.
Mark Mahaney: We will come out of this and we'll get back to a healthy.
Speaker Change: Jobs market I Wonder if you think that theres going to be something if there's if theres I don't know if theres, a cultural change or social change or a technological change that will make this recovery different than the last couple of cycles that you've gone through and that we've gone through is there something that tells you about that.
Speaker Change: Just how much room, if things if we get a negative surprise.
Speaker Change: How much how much how much buffer do you think you have in your current cost structure to have the handle a negative surprise I'm sorry, that's what I wanted to frame that and then the question I want to ask to Ian is eventually will come out of this and we'll get back to a healthy.
Speaker Change: The job recreation cycle will be different somehow this time around thanks a lot.
Speaker Change: Jobs market I Wonder if you think that theres going to be something if there's if there is I don't know if there is a cultural change or social change or a technological change that would make this recovery different than the last couple of cycles that you've gone through and that you know that we've gone through is there something that tells you that that the job recreation cycle will be different somehow.
Speaker Change: Hey, Mark this is Tim I'll take the first part of the question so as far as levers in the business that we can control.
Speaker Change: The first bucket of spend that we've talked about a lot in the past that's highly variable with our sales and marketing spend and even in Q4, we spent north of $50 million with lots of flexibility to go within that bucket.
Speaker Change: This time around thanks a lot.
Speaker Change: Hey, Mark this is Tim I'll take the first part of the question so as far as levers in the business that we can control.
Speaker Change: And as you know, we spend that up and spend that down based on the return on investment that we see in front of us. So in a downside scenario, we'd be able to pull back because strategically we have we have a very small percentage of that has been committed to future periods. So we can flex that down accordingly, and then beyond that we have a number of other measures that we can use to.
Speaker Change: The first is the bucket of spend that we've talked about a lot in the past that's highly variable as our sales and marketing spend and even in Q4, we spent north of $50 million with lots of flexibility to go within that bucket.
Speaker Change: Control costs and this can be an ordinary course of any business.
Speaker Change: As you know we spend that up we spend that down based on the return on investment that we see in front of us. So in a downside scenario, we'd be able to pull back because strategically we've had we have a very small percentage of that spend committed to future periods. So we can flex that down accordingly, and then beyond that we have a number of other measures that we can use the <unk>.
Aging through any kind of a prolonged downturn.
Speaker Change: We've shown that we can do that in the past and so we will.
Speaker Change: Do that future as well.
Speaker Change: Yeah.
Speaker Change: Okay.
Speaker Change: Hey, Mark it's Ian.
Speaker Change: Question I think the.
Speaker Change: I've been at this job for almost 15 years and I have seen many different market conditions I have seen it.
Speaker Change: Troll costs and this would be ordinary course of any business managing through any kind of a prolonged downturn.
Speaker Change: Extraordinary high unemployment I have seen low unemployment I have seen.
Speaker Change: We've shown that we can do that in the past and so we would do that future if needed as well.
Speaker Change: Along the walls and specific categories and now we are seeing a two year law across every category effectively and what I will tell you is that every time things turn south.
Speaker Change: Okay.
Mark Mahaney: Hey, Mark.
Speaker Change: That's a great question I think.
Speaker Change: I've been at this job for almost 15 years and I have seen many different market conditions I have seen extraordinarily.
Speaker Change: People think its forever.
Speaker Change: And it has never been forever and every time, a new technology has entered the market. There has been predictions of widespread impact to jobs and I have yet to see the technology that destroyed more jobs than it created.
Speaker Change: Really high unemployment I have seen low unemployment I have seen long walls and specific categories and now we are seeing two year law across every category effectively and what I will tell you is that.
Speaker Change: Every time things turn south people think its forever.
Speaker Change: So I remain confident.
Speaker Change: From all of my past experience that there will be a recovery and it will not be different from past recoveries, we will see a rebalancing of the labor market back to something that is stabler and more predictable than what we have experienced in these past extraordinary couple of years I think.
Speaker Change: And it has never been forever and every time, a new technology has entered the market. There has been predictions of widespread impact to jobs and I have yet to see the technologies that destroyed more jobs than it created.
Speaker Change: Extraordinary times deliver extraordinary outcomes and these were some extraordinary times.
Speaker Change: I remain confident.
Speaker Change: From all of my past experience that there will be a recovery and it will not be different from past recoveries, we will see.
Speaker Change: Hopefully coming through the other end of it now we will say with giving you our best opinion based on known data and we will see where the data takes us in ensuing quarters.
Speaker Change: The rebalancing of the labor market back to something that is stabler and more predictable than what we have experienced in these past extraordinary couple of years I think extraordinary times deliver extraordinary outcomes and these were some extraordinary times.
Mark Mahaney: One other thing I'd add there mark.
Speaker Change: <unk>.
Speaker Change: As we see what the next wave of jobs is likely to be I think one of the things that is possible that we will see as the.
Speaker Change: Korea coming through the other end of it now we will see with giving you our best opinion based on known data and we will see where the data takes us in ensuing quarters.
Speaker Change: A lot of the skills and experience that were required to get jobs now requires new skills and new experiences. So that has the ability the ability to potentially devalue. Some longtime skills that have been highly valued but at the same time level, the playing field for people, who have fewer skills less experienced less edgy.
Mark Mahaney: Yes, one other thing I'd add there mark is that.
Mark Mahaney: As we see what the next wave of jobs is likely to be I think one of the things that is possible that we will see is that a lot of the skills and experience that were required to get jobs now requires new skills and new experiences. So that has the ability the ability to potentially devalue some long term.
Speaker Change: Acacia et cetera.
Speaker Change: We've seen that in prior technological cycles as well.
Speaker Change: One technology replaces another.
Speaker Change: But I think that could have.
Speaker Change: <unk> implications for what sort of jobs, and what sort of skills like the ability to learn a new skill that no. One has today because that job doesn't exist yet it may be necessary two years from now.
Mark Mahaney: Skills that have been highly valued but at the same time level, the playing field for people, who have fewer skills less experienced less education et cetera.
Mark Mahaney: We've seen that in prior technological cycles as well.
Speaker Change: Okay. Thanks, David Thanks, Ian Thanks, Tim.
Mark Mahaney: One technology replaces another.
Eric Sheridan: Your next question comes from the line of Eric Sheridan with Goldman Sachs. Please go ahead.
Mark Mahaney: But I think that could have.
Mark Mahaney: Significant implications for what sort of jobs and what sort of skills like the ability to learn a new skill that no. One yet has today because that job doesn't exist yet it may be necessary two years from now.
Eric Sheridan: Thanks, so much for taking the question maybe two if I could how would you characterize the current competitive landscape, we've talked a lot about the demand or the macro landscape.
Eric Sheridan: But you are facing coming out of 24 and some of what you are seeing to start this year, but how would you characterize what you see broadly on the competitive landscape and what youre sort of penciling in for that dynamic as we get deeper into 2025 and second what should we you guys were clearly early on AIA broadly as a theme and rubbing AI through your platform what.
Speaker Change: Okay. Thanks, David Thanks, Ian Thanks, Tim.
Speaker Change: Your next question comes from the line of Eric Sheridan with Goldman Sachs. Please go ahead.
Eric Sheridan: Thanks, so much for taking the question maybe two if I could.
Eric Sheridan: Would you characterize the current competitive landscape, we've talked a lot about the demand or the macro landscape that you face it coming out of 'twenty four and some of what Youre seeing to start this year, but how would you characterize what you see broadly on the competitive landscape and what youre sort of penciling in for that dynamic as we get deeper into 2025 and second what should we you guys.
Eric Sheridan: Are your key initiatives to extend some of the dynamics around the business through 2025, and how those inform some of your key priorities. Thanks, so much.
Eric Sheridan: Great question. So this is the way we are looking at competition right now is.
Eric Sheridan: We're clearly early on AIA broadly as a theme and running AI through your platform. What are your key initiatives to extend some of the dynamics around the business through 2025, and how did those perform some of your key priorities. Thanks, so much.
When the market as.
Eric Sheridan: As much as it has away from employers having demand for recruiting.
Eric Sheridan: Does is it increases demand amongst jobseekers to find work makes it harder for them to find a new job. It makes it take longer for them to find a new job and so the lens that we have been using the last couple of years is really who is gaining market share with job seekers to us that is the fight right now there is.
Ian: Great question. So this is Ian.
Ian: The way we are looking at competition right now is when the market tells us as much as it has a way from players having demand for recruiting.
Eric Sheridan: Less and less over the last two years demand for recruiting services, but there is increasing demand amongst job seekers, who isn't waiting there because to me and to the team here that is predictive of who is going to be the mid and long term winner within the category, which is why I'm. So.
Ian: Does is it increases demand amongst jobseekers to find work makes it harder for them to finding a new job. It makes it take longer for them to find a new job.
Ian: The lens, we have been using the last couple of years is really who is gaining market share with job seekers to us that is the site right now there is less and less over the last two years demand for recruiting services, but there is increasing demand amongst job seekers, who is waiting there.
Eric Sheridan: Saturday side with the results that we have been delivering not just in the last quarter, but over the last couple of years with growing our job seeker base.
Eric Sheridan: As to how AI is impacting the category and how we had used it traditionally and how we're using it now.
Ian: To me and to the team here that is predictive of who is going to be the mid and long term winner within the category, which is why I'm. So satisfied with the results that we have been delivering not just in the last quarter, but over the last couple of years with growing our job seeker base.
Eric Sheridan: So much of what we have done with AI is around matching trying to find the right person to talk to the right employer at the right time.
Eric Sheridan: As we go forward and with the.
Eric Sheridan: The evolution and Dare I say revolution, and what is happening with the AI technology. What is enabling is an improvement in the post matching experience, where you have to prompt and induce the two sides to actually engage with each other so.
Ian: As to how AI is impacting the category and how we have used it traditionally and how we're using it now.
Ian: So much of what we have done with AI is around matching trying to find the right person to talk to the right employer at the right time.
Ian: And as we go forward and with the.
Eric Sheridan: We are seeing is whether it's something that helps <unk>.
Ian: The evolution and Dare I say revolution, and what is happening with the AI technology. What is enabling is an improvement in the post matching experience, where you have to prompt and induce the two sides to actually engage with each other so.
Eric Sheridan: Player look better to the job seeker and the content they put in their job description or the job seeker, having a better resume to show to the employer or even the preparation for job seekers.
Eric Sheridan: As they get ready to go have that conversation and get ready to interview.
Eric Sheridan: AI is permeating every part of the experience and it's not just going to be about matching and I think it's going to be the leveraging of our proprietary data the way we've always used it.
Ian: What we're seeing is whether it's something that helps the employer look better to the job seeker and the content. They put in their job description or the job seeker, having a better resume to show to the employer or even the preparation for job seekers.
Eric Sheridan: To train the algorithms to create the best possible matches and then it's going to be the UX components that AI can impact in terms of the engineering of the two sides to not just see each other and like each other but actually engage with each other.
Ian: As they get ready to go.
Ian: That conversation get ready to interview.
Ian: AI is permeating every part of the experience and it's not just going to be about matching and I think it's going to be the leveraging of our proprietary data the way we've always used it to.
Eric Sheridan: Thank you so much.
Speaker Change: Again to ask a question press star one on your telephone keypad and our next question will come from the line of Justin Patterson with Keybanc capital markets. Please go ahead.
Ian: To train the algorithms to create the best possible matches and then it's going to be the UX components that AI can impact in terms of the engineering of the two sides to not just see each other and like each other but actually engage with each other.
Eric Sheridan: Hi.
Eric Sheridan: Thanks for taking my question. This is Jacob on for Justin.
With similar encouraging signals on the trajectory of the U S job market going into 2025 a share.
Ian: Thank you so much.
Speaker Change: Again to ask a question press star one on your telephone keypad and our next question will come from the line of Justin Patterson with Keybanc capital markets. Please go ahead.
Speaker Change: Can you discuss how youre viewing return on marketing spend and how this may vary across different higher market scenarios.
Speaker Change: Sure Hey, Jacob this is Dave.
Justin Patterson: Hi, Thanks.
Justin Patterson: Thanks for taking my question. This is Jacob on for Justin.
Speaker Change: So yes, we have a very consistent philosophy that guides us and guide us in being a little bit more aggressive in Q4.
Justin Patterson: With similar encouraging signals on the trajectory of the U S job market going into 'twenty 'twenty saw that you shared.
Can you discuss how you're viewing return on marketing spend and how does may vary across different higher market scenarios.
Speaker Change: And you saw the results.
Speaker Change: And this is consistent with how we're guiding in Q1 in terms of marketing we are.
Dave: Sure Hey, Jacob this is Dave.
Speaker Change: Extremely ROI focus so.
Speaker Change: But we think about ROI in a few different ways one is.
Dave: So yes, we have a very consistent philosophy that guides us and guide us.
Speaker Change: What's the what's the five year.
Dave: Being a little bit more aggressive in Q4.
Speaker Change: Longer return total return on investment one is what's the brand impact of the advertising.
Dave: And you saw the results.
Dave: And this is consistent with how we're guiding in Q1 in terms of marketing we are extremely ROI focus so.
Speaker Change: There is what's the cash on cash return.
Speaker Change: Long does it take to get the investment back so we can recycle it and invest it again.
Dave: But we think about ROI in a few different ways one is.
Speaker Change: And so that's our philosophy when you see a spend up.
Dave: What's the what's the five year.
Dave: Longer return total return on investment one is what's the brand impact of advertising and another is what's the cash on cash return.
Speaker Change: That's because we see the return across those.
Speaker Change: <unk> metrics are getting better and when do you see a spend down it's because we're responding to.
Speaker Change: What we see in some cases it takes a few hours to adjust up or down depending on the type of media or advertising or sales and marketing that were considering in some cases. It takes a few weeks, but very little of our marketing spend is committed months and months in advance and so thats sort of the philosophy and so when you compare it.
Dave: Long does it take to get the investment back so we can recycle it and invest it again.
Dave: And so that's our philosophy when you see us spend up.
Dave: Because we see the return across those three.
Dave: Three metrics getting better I mean, do you see a spend down it's because we're responding to what.
Speaker Change: So the sort of sequential seasonal patterns that we saw in prior years, we were encouraged by what we saw in Q4 and Tim and Ian.
Dave: What we see in some cases it takes a few hours to adjust up or down depending on the type of media or advertising or sales and marketing that were considering in some cases. It takes a few weeks, but very little of our marketing spend is committed months and months in advance and so thats sort of the philosophy and so when you compare it.
Speaker Change: Ian both mentioned earlier reactivation as being one of the ways in which the returns on investment manifest themselves.
Dave: So the sort of sequential seasonal patterns that we saw in prior years. We were we were encouraged by what we saw in Q4 and Tim.
Speaker Change: That will conclude our question and answer session and our call today. Thank you all for joining and you may now disconnect.
Dave: Both mentioned earlier reactivation being one of the ways in which that those returns on investment manifest themselves.
Dave: That will conclude our question and answer session and our call today. Thank you all for joining and you may now disconnect.
Dave: [music].
Dave: Yes.
Dave: [music].