Q4 2024 Bowhead Specialty Holdings Inc Earnings Call
[music].
Hello, and welcome to Bowhead specialties full Q4 earnings call. After the prepared remarks, we will hold a question and answer session.
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Speaker Change: With that I would like to turn it over to Shelly Yeah head of Investor Relations Shelly you may begin.
Thanks, Danielle good morning, and welcome to Bullheads fourth quarter 2024 earnings Conference call.
Shirley Yeah: I'm Shirley Yeah go ahead, Chief accounting officer, and head of Investor Relations.
Shirley Yeah: Joining me today are student Jones, our Chief Executive Officer, and Brian Mcgee, Our Chief Financial Officer.
Shirley Yeah: Earlier. This morning, we released our financial results for the fourth quarter of 2024.
Shirley Yeah: You can find our earnings release in the Investor Relations section of our website.
Shirley Yeah: Later in the week, our Form 10-K will also be made available on our website.
Shirley Yeah: Before we begin I'd like to remind everyone that hockey teams forward looking statements within the meaning of the private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995.
Shirley Yeah: Investors should not place undue reliance on any forward looking statement.
Shirley Yeah: These statements are made me as of the date of this call and are based on management.
Shirley Yeah: Vacation and then bleed.
Shirley Yeah: We're looking statements are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from those.
Shirley Yeah: These statements.
Shirley Yeah: You should review the risks and uncertainties described in our SEC filings.
Shirley Yeah: We expressly disclaim any duty to update any forward looking statements.
As required by law.
Shirley Yeah: Additionally, we will be referencing certain non-GAAP financial measures on this call.
Shirley Yeah: Reconciliations of these non-GAAP financial measures to their respective most directly comparable GAAP measure can be found in the earnings release, we issued this morning and in the Investor Relations section of our website.
Steven Eden: With that I'll turn the call over to Steven Eden.
Steven Eden: Thank you Shirley.
Speaker Change: Everyone and thank you for joining us on our first year end earnings conference call as a public company.
Speaker Change: Appreciate your time and interest in <unk> and we're excited to share our strong results with you today.
Speaker Change: Before we begin I wanted to take a moment to extend our sincere appreciation to our colleagues in brokerage.
Speaker Change: Your support dedication and hard work later crucial role in making 2020 for such a successful year for <unk>.
Speaker Change: Next I'd like to take a step back and reflect on the milestone year we've had.
Speaker Change: 2024 was a transformational year for our company.
Speaker Change: Filled with achievements that have positioned us well for cross cycle profitability.
Speaker Change: He will also provide insight into our expectations for 2025, which in short is consistent with our messaging throughout 2024.
Speaker Change: May 2024, we successfully completed an upsized IPO, marking a major milestone in our company's journey.
Speaker Change: Then on October 25th we successfully closed a secondary public offering reflecting the strong demand for our company stock.
Speaker Change: During our roadshow, we highlighted strategic priorities for achieving cross cycle profitability, which included profitability growing our existing lines of business.
Speaker Change: Opportunistically and strategically expanding into new products and markets maintain.
Speaker Change: Maintaining our underwriting first culture across market cycles.
Speaker Change: Leveraging expertise.
Speaker Change: Technology.
Data and analytics to drive underwriting performance.
Speaker Change: We're pleased to report that we successfully executed on.
Speaker Change: Yeah.
Speaker Change: Right.
Speaker Change: Good morning, everyone.
Speaker Change: First we profitably grew premiums by 37% in 2024 exceeding our annual premium growth target of 20% of the 696 million of premiums. We wrote in 2024, 76% was written on an excess in surplus.
Speaker Change: Foreign or E&S basis, while we could have Britain's substantially more business in all divisions in line with our underwriting first culture, we were highly selective with the risks that we brought into our portfolio.
Speaker Change: Because we began operations in November of 2020.
Speaker Change: We were not impacted by legacy reserve issues affecting the broader industry.
Speaker Change: We also do not write property or naturally catastrophe exposed risks as well as stand alone commercial auto or fleet business areas, where the industry has seen adverse development from pre 2020 accident years.
Speaker Change: Instead, we utilized our underwriting first culture to drive profitable growth.
Casualty division, where were seeing favorable underwriting and pricing conditions in the excess casualty space, we increased premiums by 56% for the year through rate increases improved terms and conditions and bringing on new business, all while reducing our average limb.
Speaker Change: Minutes.
Speaker Change: And both our health care liability and professional liability divisions, where market conditions are more nuanced.
Speaker Change: Certain areas challenging we had double digit growth in the year, while prioritizing underwriting profitability and optimizing our portfolio.
Speaker Change: In all divisions, we remain disciplined and dedicated to our underwriting first approach, we disclosed or allowed others to renew or accounts when the underlying numbers didn't meet our profitability targets and.
Speaker Change: During the fourth quarter.
Speaker Change: We've seen some carriers aggressively reaching for budget, we've maintained our disciplined underwriting approach and focused on profitable growth rather than just expanding on volume.
Speaker Change: In terms of our strategic expansions in 2024, we announced two new offerings late in the second quarter, we launched a new division called baleen specialty of streamline tech enabled low touch low underwriting operation that focuses on small part.
Speaker Change: Place risks written 100% on are not admitted basis.
Speaker Change: While premiums we wrote in 2024 does not have a material impact on our bottom line in the year, we delivered the technology and offered to products and over a 160 eligible.
Speaker Change: Most frequently requested by our broker partners, we're solving a problem for our broker partners that only a limited number of markets.
Speaker Change: Technologically capable of delivering.
Speaker Change: In line with our underwriting first culture, we do not compete on price rather the commitment we've made to our broker partners is to provide best in class service coverage transparency and the continued development of additional products and solutions in the years to come we have deliberately.
Speaker Change: Our commitment to develop a flow underwriting operation and are excited about the momentum we've generated in the first seven months of Bally and <unk> operations.
Speaker Change: In Q4, we also released the first of our three environmental liability products diversifying our casualty da Vinci product offerings with our disciplined approach to underwriting and our expanding cramps and flow platforms. We believe we positioned ourselves well.
Speaker Change: For sustainable.
Speaker Change: Comparable growth across market cycles.
Speaker Change: 2024 was a busy but successful year, we achieved a 37% growth.
Speaker Change: Premiums invested in the development of new products and executed on our priorities all while improving our expense ratio by five points.
Speaker Change: We also delivered an adjusted ROE.
Speaker Change: With 15, 2%, which included a $131 million of net proceeds from our ups sized IPO delivering attractive returns on capital to our investors.
Speaker Change: In 2024, we said we were going to do and we achieved what we set out to do we expect 2025 to be no different.
Speaker Change: As we move into 2025 are priorities for achieving growth cycle profitability remain unchanged, we expect to profitably grow our business around 20% in 2025 continue to build upon the momentum we've achieved with Palin and apply the technology to other <unk>.
Speaker Change: Areas in our business.
Speaker Change: Opportunistically and strategically expand into new products or markets.
Speaker Change: And maintain our underwriting first culture, and both our craft and flow underwriting operations.
Speaker Change: With that I'll pass the call over to Brad to discuss our financial results.
Brad: Thanks, Steven had generated adjusted net income of $14 $1 million in the fourth quarter of 143% year over year or <unk> 42 per diluted share.
Brad: Adjusted return on average equity for the quarter was 15, 3%, which included $131 million of net proceeds from our Upsized IPO in May 2024.
Brad: Gross written premiums increased 26% to $185 million for the quarter.
Brad: We had premium growth from each of our divisions with casually driving the increase at 43% year over year to $106 million for the quarter.
Brad: Growth in casually came mostly from our excess casualty book, where we continued to see rate increases across our renewal book and new business stemming from the continued collapsing of towers.
Brad: And our health care liability division premiums of $32 million increased 9% year over year, driven by renewals with rate increases in certain lines and new business and others.
Brad: In our professional liability division.
Brad: Quite a challenging market, we maintained underwriting discipline, while increasing premiums 7% year over year to $46 million, which was primarily driven by our cyber liability portfolio.
Brad: Eileen generated $1 2 million premium in the fourth quarter, which was a 175% growth from the modest premiums in the previous quarter.
Brad: We're pleased with our initial results and expect the momentum to start ramping up in the second half of 2020 time, one year after launching mainly.
Brad: The timing of our independent actuarial review in Q4 of each year, we consider our full year loss ratio a more meaningful metric in our Q4 loss ratio for.
Brad: For the full year, our 2020 for loss ratio of 64, 4% increased one four points compared to the 63 zero percent loss ratio in 2023.
Brad: The increase is primarily due to mix changes in the portfolio, where our casualty division has a higher current accident year loss ratio and comprised a larger portion of our portfolio compared to 2023.
Brad: Remember since we've only been in operations for four years in long tail lines, our actual loss experience is limited.
Brad: Because of this our annual independent actuarial review is primarily based on inputs from industry data.
Brad: Our initial expected loss ratios are derived from a combination of internal pricing data and external benchmark while development patterns are mostly based on external benchmark patterns.
Brad: We attempt to align all industry benchmarks to the nuances of our portfolio, including our limited commercial auto fleet exposure and lack of large national account exposures in casualty.
Brad: Additionally, the development patterns, we take into account our excess position in particular lines, which generally results in different development patterns and primary physicians.
Brad: Our most recent annual actuarial review in Q4 resulted in various adjustments, but most importantly, we had no prior accident year development and our aggregate net losses for 2020.
Brad: As you will see in our 10-K and statutory reports once filed we reallocated reserves by division to align more closely with the actuarially derived projected loss ratios and development patterns.
Brad: These reallocations were primarily from professional liability in the 'twenty, one 'twenty two accident years over to casualty in the 'twenty two 'twenty three years with other divisions in years adjusted to a lesser extent, but the result on an aggregate net basis with no prior year development.
Brad: More specifically in casually the $9 million of net unfavorable development.
Brad: Driven by deteriorating loss trends in the industry benchmarks.
Brad: While in professional lines, the offsetting $9 5 million of net favorable development was driven by actual experience coming in lower than expected.
Brad: Additionally, we adjusted some current accident year initial expected loss picks to align with EXPAREL estimates, including increasing some lines experiencing continued rate deterioration.
Brad: In principle these actions of recognizing potentially bad news quickly when we were made aware while letting good news season results in a level of conservatism in our net reserves that should bode well for the future.
Brad: In the end our incurred but not reported reserves comprised 97% of our net loss reserves at the end of 2024 as a reminder, since bowhead does not write any property risks, we did not experience any material direct losses due to the California wildfires do not expect to in future quarters.
Brad: Additionally, we have limited commercial auto fleet exposure avoid classes, such as trucking sports and leisure and primary habitation all avoid writing policies in unfavorable jurisdictions similar to the loss ratio, we consider our full year expense ratio a more meaningful metric to monitor the trending of our expense ratio.
Brad: Due to the inherent volatility quarter to quarter.
Brad: For the year, our 2020 for expense ratio of 31, 4% decrease 0.5 points compared to 31, 9% in 2023.
Brad: Five point reduction was driven by a 0.9 point decrease in our operating expense ratio, which is partially offset by a five point increase in our net acquisition ratio.
Brad: 0.9 point decrease in our operating expense ratio from 24.0% in 2023 to 23, 1% in 2024 was due to the continued scaling of our business where net earned premiums grew at a higher rate than our expenses as well as general prudent management of our expenses.
Brad: A half point increase in our net acquisition ratio from seven 9% in 2023% to eight 4% in 2024 was driven by the increase in broker commissions and a reduction in ceding Commission rates.
Brad: Broker Commission increase was due to our mix and changes in our portfolio are casually has higher broker commission or to other divisions and comprised a larger proportion of our portfolio compared to 2023.
Brad: Overall, the effect of our loss ratio and expense ratio attributed to a combined ratio of 95, 8% for the year.
Brad: Turning to our investment portfolio pretax net investment income for the quarter increased 80% to $12 million more than doubled from 90 million to $40 million in the year driven by an increase in our investment portfolio and higher investment yields.
Brad: At the end of the year, our investment portfolio had a book yield of four 6% and a new money rate of four 9%.
Brad: Average credit quality and duration of our investment portfolio remained at <unk> and $2 two years.
Brad: Our effective tax rate for the quarter was 25, 2% for the year was 24, 3% in line with our expectations.
Brad: Of note our effective tax rate may vary due to state taxes and certain tax adjustments for permanent differences.
Brad: Total equity was $370 million given us a diluted book value per share of $11 three for the year, an increase of 38% from the year end 2023 of eight hours.
Brad: Turning to expectations for 2025, which as Stephen mentioned remain unchanged from what we communicated during the IPO and in 2024.
Brad: Continue to expect our premium growth of around 20% led by momentum in our casualty division supplemented by growth in RMB lean division and profitable growth within our professional liability and healthcare liability divisions.
Brad: From a ceded perspective, although our main quota share and excess of loss treaties renew in Maine. Later this year, we renewed our cyber quota share Treaty effective January one 2025 at 60% down from 64% in 2024 and increased our ceding Commission.
Brad: As a note at each renewal we considered various factors when determining our reinsurance coverage and may adjust our reinsurance program, including a retention.
Brad: We expect our 2025 loss ratio to remain in the mid sixties range, but gradually changed from 2020, whereas the book mix changes and earned premiums on older years Rollouts.
Brad: Prior year reserves may change throughout the year due to audit premiums or allocation of loss adjustment expenses.
Brad: But we will maintain our conservative approach to evaluating reserves each quarter.
Brad: Additionally, we expect our expense ratio to remain in the low 30% range for the full year 2025 due to the continued scaling of our business. While we continue to invest in our priorities for achieving cross cycle profitability.
We expect our expense ratio in the first half of the year to be slightly higher than the second half due to payroll taxes associated with bonus payouts in the first quarter and divesting of certain rsum in the second quarter.
Brad: The increase in the seating American family takes place in Q2 from 2% to 275%, which nets to about 2% of earned premium after expenses.
Brad: Therefore, we believe our combined ratio will be in the mid ninety's for the full year and return on equity to be in the mid teens.
Brad: On a capital perspective, as we've communicated during our road shows the net proceeds we received from our Upsized IPO was more than sufficient for 2024.
Brad: As we discussed we have a great growth opportunity ahead of us in 2025, and we will assess the appropriate source of funding to capture that opportunity.
Brad: That will turn the call over for questions.
Brad: Okay.
Brad: Thank you as a reminder, if you would like to ask a question. Please use the Raytheon button found at the back bar at the bottom of your screen.
Speaker Change: Well, thank you Wilton Youll see the message from the hoist, allowing you to talk.
Speaker Change: And then you'll hear your name called please accept our media audio and ask your question.
Speaker Change: I'll wait a moment to allow the team to fall.
Speaker Change: Our first question.
Speaker Change: <unk> is from Meyer shields of Keefe spirits and Woods. Please mute your line and ask your question. Thank you.
Speaker Change: Great. Good morning, Thanks, so much.
Speaker Change: I was hoping for a little more color in terms of comparing the fourth quarter accident year loss ratio to what Bill had had produced through the first nine months.
Speaker Change: We did see a bit of a dip down and I'm wondering if that mix is that a reassessment of loss trends or is there something else going on.
Speaker Change: Yeah, Hey, Meredith Brad.
Speaker Change: That happens every year, that's why we kind of think of our full year loss ratio to be a better indicator of where we're really tracking it it's really a function of our.
Speaker Change: Review that we do in Q4, and just moving things around so the mix obviously impacts it.
Speaker Change: But that's mostly the same thing happened in Q4 of 2023, if you look comparable so full year, where we're at and I think that's the better line to look at but obviously no prior accident year development in that number so the only two things that impacted from Q3 to Q4 would have been the current accident year.
Speaker Change: <unk>.
Speaker Change: The mix changed some of the mix, we've been saying lately all year long casualty just generally has a higher loss pick so as that increases as a proportion of those are whole the loss. The loss ratio will go up and then also the <unk> in Q4, we did adjust our current accident year loss ratios a little bit.
Speaker Change: Casually going up sorry, casually go download the P L going up health care going up a little bit so a little bit of a change in current accident year, there as well.
Speaker Change: Okay Fantastic and then I know I've asked this in the past, but I'm, hoping to get an update on available underwriting talent in the marketplace now I don't know how.
Speaker Change: A number of competitors struggled with prior period reserves or current profitability does that have an impact on the people that you can recruit.
Speaker Change: Sorry, maybe you said the question was on talent, yes in other words, obviously part of the strategy is to expand into other product lines, which presumably requires more underwriting Todd I'm wondering how that compares to expectations what's available in market now.
Speaker Change: While the first place that we're looking for talent.
Speaker Change: In the excess and primary casualty space.
Speaker Change: But the kind of talent, we're looking for is hard to come by.
We've hired a few people this past year.
Speaker Change: We've got a few more in the budget for this year, we've staffed up for the startup of the environmental business.
Speaker Change: And we're also staffing up.
Speaker Change: We're not having trouble finding in the debate lien space.
Speaker Change: But as you know with the baleen spaces more technologically driven.
Speaker Change: <unk>.
Speaker Change: So that will be a lot more scalable with less people and the craft business.
Speaker Change: Make some multiple we're doing right now.
Speaker Change: Okay perfect. Thank you so much.
Scott: Our next question comes from Scott <unk> at RBC capital markets. Please on mute your line and ask your question.
Speaker Change: Yes.
Speaker Change: Our first question Howard just on the.
Speaker Change: The healthcare liability gross written premiums it they had decelerated a little bit they were up double digits. The past couple of quarters and I was just wondering if there's anything in there anything you can kind of point to on that that was already I think you referenced and competition was that was there any particular area you saw some uptick in competition, there and do you expect to see growth in that line.
Speaker Change: For 2025.
Speaker Change: We do expect to see growth in that line in 2025 I think.
More people had been recognizing the problems of the past.
Speaker Change: I don't think we've seen the end of sexual abuse and molestation claims that haven't.
Speaker Change: Not only have they.
Speaker Change: Have they increased but the.
Speaker Change: The settlement values have gone up substantially.
Speaker Change: And I think people are recognizing that and starting to have rates catch up with it so.
Speaker Change: We expect particularly in the in the hospital space, which is one of the components of our health care space, we expect that to.
Speaker Change: To grow very nicely in 'twenty five.
Speaker Change: Okay. That's helpful. And then just on excess casualty that's been alignments that saw significant rate increases I'm sure pricier Balkan across the entire industry and that the growth has been really significant and I'm. Just wondering what kind of opportunity you see in 2025 for that line is do you still expect.
Speaker Change: You're meaningfully high growth rates in that area. There is there still a lot of dislocation and still a lot of areas, where you see opportunity there or is that is that something where he is.
Speaker Change: The growth rate, you're seeing lately is that really sustainable just wondering if you can comment on the excess casualty part of casually and kind of what you're seeing there.
Speaker Change: Okay.
Speaker Change: We think it is very sustainable.
Speaker Change: We think that.
Speaker Change: I don't know how far out you want to go but I think we've got a few more years of it at least.
Speaker Change: I think.
Speaker Change: All the talk about social inflation and nuclear <unk> is.
Speaker Change: <unk> is not fantasy it's real.
Speaker Change:
Speaker Change: We don't write as Brad mentioned, we don't right.
Speaker Change: Primary order, we don't write fleets, but of course, we right.
Speaker Change: Contractors and contractors have trucks, but we've seen.
Speaker Change: On some of the excess business that we write.
Speaker Change: Verdicts that are.
Speaker Change: Better eye watering in in what they are what they are settling for and I think the market overall is scrambling to catch up. So we think that there's more opportunity in terms of new business, but a substantial opportunity in terms of increased rates on existing business.
Speaker Change: Okay perfect. That's really helpful. Thanks, a lot.
Speaker Change: Okay.
Speaker Change: Sure.
Speaker Change: Thank you and as a reminder, if you would like to ask a question. Please click the Raytheon button found a black box at the bottom of your screen.
Speaker Change: In the meantime, our next question comes from close things on at J P. Morgan Pablo. Please ask your question. Thank you.
Pablo: Hi, Good morning. So first question, Brad just given the sequential decline in the loss ratio from three <unk> would it be fair to assume that the net impact of the loss exchange. You went through was a positive just wanted to clarify that.
Speaker Change: Yes that would be a good assumption.
Pablo: Okay.
Pablo: And then the follow up just on the loss ratios.
Pablo: I think you suggested that using the 'twenty 'twenty four loss ratio as a starting point.
Pablo: It would be a good baseline.
Pablo: So the question is.
Pablo: Just given the projected mix change here, right, where casualty will probably grow faster than the other lines.
Pablo: How fast that you foresee the loss ratio increasing from the 64.4% baseline.
Pablo: Yes, I think in 2025, it's going to be.
Pablo: Less of a mix change issue and more of a.
Pablo: Roll off of those older years or older years have a lower loss pick.
Pablo: So I think as those roll off.
Pablo: It'll impact 2025.
Pablo: Unfavourably, if you want to call it directionally.
Pablo: But I think.
Pablo: I think the mix issue will be there, but it'll be more of those over the last years rolling off.
Pablo: Okay.
Pablo: Sneak one more in on the expense ratio.
Pablo: You talked about the fronting fee you are having I think a two point impact on the combined right.
Pablo: So.
Pablo: Don't have full visibility of what's going to happen the ceding commissions, but it sounds like the acquisition ratio would go up.
Pablo: Do you expect most of that increase to be offset by a <unk>.
Pablo: Our expense leverage on the G&A side.
Pablo: Yes, I would expect that I think the gist.
Pablo: Just to be clear the fronting fee going up to the 2% change we've got about a one 5% number currently so the actual incremental changes a half a point.
Pablo: We can manage that through just the way the business is scaling in the projections that we see.
Speaker Change: Gotcha, Okay, great. Thank you.
Pablo: Yeah.
Speaker Change: Our next question comes from Colin King at six <unk> P. M. Please Amit and ask your question. Thank you.
Speaker Change: Hey, Thanks, good morning.
Pablo: And you talked a bit about.
Pablo: Casualty and how excess casualty is really driving nice growth there.
Pablo: Could you talk a little bit about professional liability and healthcare.
Speaker Change: Little bit slower growth in the quarter, just kind of your outlook. There and then Steven I know you mentioned some some companies may be trying to hit budget late in the year I don't know if those are the segments you are talking about but a little more color would be great. Thank you.
Pablo: Sure.
Pablo: The professional businesses made up of public D&O private D&O.
Pablo: The E.
Pablo: <unk> business.
Pablo: As well as cyber side, we're seeing really nice growth.
Pablo: It's been a very successful line for us to enter.
Pablo: The large publicly traded or risks is that which is under the most pressure.
Pablo: There are people, who are buying hundreds of millions of dollars of limits as we've talked about in the past towers have collapsed in terms of people not writing $25 million right.
Pablo: Tranches of fives and tens we've found.
Pablo: MGA is going out there and just getting really aggressive in doing things that we.
Pablo: We think are very imprudent.
Pablo: <unk>.
Pablo: It has less of an impact for the buyer.
Pablo: The higher the further up the tower you go we've said for a long time that you know when you are writing excess of $300 million, it's somewhat fungible capacity.
Pablo: Somebody wants to write it at 5000 million and somebody else wants to write it at 4000 million dollars.
Pablo: Much of a difference if you're going to have a claim up at that level, where it's a lot more stable we believe.
Pablo: Is down below the company has the right to primary.
Pablo: First and second excess policies.
Pablo: We're not is because we were relatively late.
Pablo: Starting up at the end of 2020, we don't have a lot of that.
Pablo: The download business so.
Pablo: When you go further up the cow or a lot of the places where we built our business is plugging in where people created gaps in years past.
Pablo:
Pablo: We just think that Doug.
Pablo: A lot of the business that we have which has a higher up.
Pablo: It has just gotten too competitive and this is just not.
Pablo: Where fee.
Pablo: With the effort.
Pablo: We go out there we get enough submissions to work on but it's just not it's just not worth it to put in a low price per million.
Pablo: In the hope that that.
Pablo: Nothing is going to be in a giant power loss.
Pablo:
Pablo: As we've said before hope is not a strategy.
Pablo: So we've let a lot of that business go and sell.
Pablo: The large public stuff has been.
Pablo: It has been flat.
Pablo: We are we think we can grow in the private business. We think we can grow when the very very small publicly traded business and certainly believe we can grow in the.
Pablo: Our cyber business.
Pablo: The <unk>.
Pablo: Cyber business of course.
Pablo: We've been mostly on the larger accounts.
Pablo: Using our technology youre going to be seeing us more in the smaller risks where we.
Pablo: We think we can generate some good profitable growth.
Pablo: In the in the healthcare space.
Pablo: As I said before.
Pablo: Thank you.
Pablo: The hospital business will show nice growth.
Pablo: Miscellaneous is very competitive with the present miscellaneous medical at the present time, we are seeing.
<unk>.
Speaker Change: Uh huh.
Speaker Change: People do a lot of things that we're uncertain about.
Speaker Change: Senior care, we think Theres. Some opportunities also managed care, we think there's good growth opportunities and also healthcare management liability, we see some growth opportunities.
Speaker Change: Great very helpful. Appreciate it.
Steven Eden: Thank you there are no further questions that concludes the question and answer portion of today's call I would now like to hand, the call back over to Stephen <unk> CEO for closing remarks.
Steven Eden: Thank you operator to wrap up but we have delivered another strong quarter ended exciting year.
Steven Eden: Before we go I wanted to say thank you again.
Steven Eden: Colleagues and brokers for making 2020 for such a successful year.
Steven Eden: Is just the beginning for BOE hedged and I couldnt be more excited for what I expect to see a company that is capable of cross cycle profitability. Thanks.
Steven Eden: Thanks for the support and we look forward to speaking to you along the way.