Q4 2024 Kopin Corp Earnings Call
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Operator: Morning, everyone, and welcome to the Kopin Corporation fourth quarter twenty twenty four earnings call. Please note that the event is being recorded at this time.
Speaker Change: Good morning, everyone and welcome to the <unk> Corporation fourth quarter 2024 earnings call. Please note that this event is being recorded at this time I'd like to turn the conference over to Brian for Novo Investor Relations for Colton. Please go ahead.
Brian Prenoveau: I'd like to turn the conference over to Brian Prenoveau, investor relations for Kopin. Please go ahead. Thank you, and good morning, everyone.
Speaker Change: Thank you and good morning, everyone before we get started I'd like to remind everyone that today's call taking place on April 17th 2025, we will be making forward looking statements as defined in the private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1095. These statements are based on the company's current expectations projections beliefs.
Brian Prenoveau: Before we get started, I'd like to remind everyone that today's call, taking place on April 17th, 2025, will be making forward-looking statements as defined in the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These statements are based on the company's current expectations, projections, beliefs, and estimates, and are subject to a number of risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from those forward-looking statements. Potential risks include, but are not limited to, demand for our products, operating results of our subsidiaries, market conditions, and other factors discussed in our most recent annual report on Form 10-K, and other documents filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Speaker Change: And estimates and are subject to a number of risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from those forward looking statements potential risks include but are not limited to demand for our products operating results of our subsidiaries market conditions and other factors discussed in our most recent annual.
Speaker Change: Report on Form 10-K, and other documents filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Brian Prenoveau: Although the company believes that the assumptions underlying these statements are reasonable, any of them can be proven inaccurate and there can be no assurances that the results will be realized. The company undertakes no obligation to update the forward-looking statements made during today's call.
Speaker Change: Although the company believes that the assumptions underlying these statements are reasonable any of them can be proven inaccurate and there can be no assurances that the results will be realized the company undertakes no obligation to update the forward looking statements made during today's call. In addition references may be made to certain non generally accepted accounting principles.
Brian Prenoveau: In addition, references may be made to certain non-generally accepted accounting principles or non-GAAP measures for which you should refer to the appropriate disclaimers and reconciliation of the company's SEC filings and press Kopin Corporation's Chief Executive Officer, Michael Murray, will begin today's call with an overview of Kopin's progress within the company's strategy.
Speaker Change: <unk> non-GAAP measures for which you should refer to the appropriate disclaimers and reconciliations of the company's SEC filings and press releases.
Speaker Change: Coping Corporation's Chief Executive Officer, Michael Murray will begin today's call with an overview of Cobain's progress within the company strategy. Following Michael Cohen CFO, Richard Sneider will review, the company's fourth quarter and full year 'twenty 'twenty four financial results I would now like to turn the conference call over to Michael Barry Michael.
Brian Prenoveau: Following Michael, Kopin's CFO, Richard Snyder, will review the company's fourth quarter and full year 2024 financial results.
Michael Murray: I would now like to turn the conference call over to Michael Murray. Michael? Thank you, Brian.
Speaker Change: Thank you, Brian good morning to everyone and welcome to our fourth quarter and full year earnings call.
Michael Murray: Good morning to everyone and welcome to our fourth quarter and full year earnings call. I want to begin by expressing my thanks and gratitude to our shareholders for their patience as this year's audit took longer than anticipated. But we filed our 10K and we're happy with our new audit firm who took on a significant task with adding Kopin late in the fiscal year. Today, Kopin is reporting an all-time record year from both a revenue perspective and for orders since the disposition of our HBT business over a decade ago. The momentum from strong fourth quarter results, our existing order book and new contract wins in the first part of 2025, give us confidence that our strategic pivot transformation and focus is gaining real momentum.
Speaker Change: I want to begin by expressing my thanks, and gratitude to our shareholders for their patience as this year's audit took longer than anticipated, but we filed our 10-K and we're happy with our new audit firm, who took on a significant task with adding coping late in the fiscal year.
Speaker Change: Okay coping as reporting an all time record year from both a revenue perspective and for orders since the disposition of our H B T business over a decade ago.
Speaker Change: The momentum from strong fourth quarter results, our existing order book and new contract wins in the first part of 2025.
Speaker Change: US confidence that our strategic pivot transformation and focus is gaining real momentum.
Michael Murray: Before I provide insights into our future, I wanted to highlight some of the positive results from 2024 before turning the call over to Rich to go through a detailed analysis of our financial results. I want to highlight a few areas I think are important to keep in mind. In our second year of our transformation plan, we achieved revenue growth of 25 percent year-over-year growth in 2024. Fourth quarter revenue increased 71% when compared to 2023. Our quality rates have greatly improved and now are more predictable. The cost structure in fourth quarter 2024 was much closer to a normalized expense level, given the lower legal costs, and we believe automation in the manufacturing plants can further lever and reduce our cost structure.
Speaker Change: Before I provide insights into our future I wanted to highlight some of the positive results from 2024 before turning the call over to rich to go through a detailed analysis of our financial results.
Speaker Change: I want to highlight a few areas I think are important to keep in mind in our second year of our transformation plan, we achieved revenue growth of 25% year over year growth in 2024.
Speaker Change: Fourth quarter revenue increased 71% when compared to 2023 or.
Speaker Change: Our quality rates have greatly improved and now are more predictable.
Speaker Change: The cost structure in fourth quarter 2024 was much closer to a normalized expense level, given the lower legal costs and we believe automation in the manufacturing plants can further lever and reduce our cost structure.
Michael Murray: As a reminder, the $46 million loss includes $24.8 million in reserve for the Blue Radio's litigation and associated legal costs in 2024. Excluding the reserve for litigation costs and associated legal expenses, the adjusted loss per share would have been negative nine cents. We've continued to significantly narrow the loss and gain momentum to become cash flow positive. Under our OneKopin strategy, we reorganize Kopin Virginia and our European teams, which unify our focus, strengths, and capabilities while reducing redundancies. We also form new business development, program management, and quality. Under the FabLite strategy, we brought online new OLED and micro LED vendors to strengthen our source of supply for U.S.
Speaker Change: As a reminder, the $46 million loss includes $24 8 million in reserves for the Blue radios litigation and associated legal costs in 2024, excluding the reserve for litigation costs and associated legal expenses. The adjusted loss per share would have been negative nine cents.
Speaker Change: We've continued to significantly narrow the loss and gain momentum to become cash flow positive.
Speaker Change: Under our one coping strategy, we reorganized cope in Virginia, and our European teams, which unifier focus strengths and capabilities, while reducing redundancies. We also formed new business development program management and quality teams.
Speaker Change: Under the Fab light strategy, we brought online new OLED and micro OLED vendors to strengthen our source of supply for U S. D O D applications, while keeping our lower cost medical and consumer supply strategy intact.
Michael Murray: DoD applications while keeping our lower cost medical and consumer supply strategy intact. We rebranded the company, launched a new website, and reinvigorated our marketing outreach, customer service, and support models.
Speaker Change: We rebranded the company launched a new website and reinvigorated, our marketing outreach customer service and support models Indeed.
Michael Murray: Indeed, I am very proud of our progress in 2024. And as we now look to 2025 and beyond, we remain very optimistic and excited about our future. Despite the delays in defense budgeting processes, geopolitical and supply chain uncertainties, we reaffirm our belief that in 2025, Kopin will continue to grow and generate between $52 to $55 million in revenue.
Speaker Change: Indeed, I am very proud of our progress in 2024 and as we now look to 2025 and beyond we remain very optimistic and excited about our future.
Speaker Change: Despite the delays in defense budgeting processes geopolitical and supply chain uncertainties, we reaffirm our belief that in 2025, <unk> will continue to grow and generate between 52 to 55 million in revenue.
Michael Murray: Now, let me discuss everyone's favorite topic, Terra. On the pricing side of our business, our government contracts allow us to seek price increases if the tariff affects our cost. On the supply side, our raw wafer inventory levels can support our demand in 2025. Further, Kopin began our FabLite strategic initiative in 2023 with the goal of reducing our exposure to Asian supply chains. Since then, we've created dual supply chains for OLED-on-silicon displays specifically, which are already supporting customer demand. No company will be immune to the effects of tariffs, however, we believe Kopin is in a much better position than most due to these decisions.
Speaker Change: Now, let me discuss everyone's favorite topic tariffs.
Speaker Change: On the pricing side of our business, our government contracts allow us to seek price increases if the tariff.
Speaker Change: Our costs on the supply side, our raw wafer inventory levels can support our demand in 2025.
Further cope and began our fab light strategic initiative in 2023 with the goal of reducing our exposure to Asian supply chains. Since then we've created dual supply chains for OLED on silicon displays specifically.
Speaker Change: Which are already supporting customer demands.
Speaker Change: Company will be immune to the effects of tariffs. However, we believe <unk> is in a much better position than most due to these decisions.
Michael Murray: Now, in 2025, we will continue to execute on our one Kopin strategy as this supports and directs more resources to the rapidly expanding European and Southeast Asian defense markets. This focus should provide us with a lift in global opportunities and a more balanced pipeline for growth as we continue to witness additional and significant project funding in parts of Europe and Korea specifically. As an early indicator of our progress, we are seeing an influx of new and challenging opportunities which fit our strategic plan, our priorities, and our capabilities. Furthermore, we are actively exploring strategic partnerships with leading firms in high growth markets and regions to expedite this growth.
Speaker Change: Now in 2025, we will continue to execute on our one <unk> strategy as this supports and direct more resources to the rapidly expanding European and South East Asian Defense markets. This focus should provide us with a lift in global opportunities in a more balanced pipeline for growth as we continue to witness additional and <unk>.
Speaker Change: Significant project funding in parts of Europe, and Korea, specifically.
Speaker Change: As an early indicator of our progress we are seeing an influx of new and challenging opportunities, which fit our strategic plan, our priorities and our capabilities.
Speaker Change: Furthermore, we are actively exploring strategic partnerships with leading firms in high growth markets and regions to expedite this growth.
Michael Murray: Coupled with our engineering, production, and program management teams, we must also execute more profitably on our current programs and anticipate a new product introduction growth.
Speaker Change: Coupled with our engineering production and program management teams, we must also execute more profitably on our current programs and anticipated new product introduction growth. Thus our strategic initiative for 2025 is the implementation of AI assisted factory and process automation.
Michael Murray: Thus, our strategic initiative for 2025 is the implementation of AI-assisted factory and process automation. Improving manufacturing efficiency, increasing automation, and reducing redundancies are critical areas of improvement for our company. Several of these automation projects were funded and began development in early 2024. We believe these initiatives will be enabling higher factory absorption rates, better data-driven decisions, and lead to greater throughput in our current facilities. As we capture more of our opportunity pipeline, our ability to leverage our manufacturing facilities to handle greater demand, improve product quality, while reducing overhead costs is critical for our success. We are excited to share that we expect a significant milestone achievement in our factory automation plan to be achieved this quarter as we introduce new AI enabled inspection.
Speaker Change: Improving manufacturing efficiency, increasing automation and reducing redundancies are critical areas of improvement for our company.
Several of these automation projects were funded and began development in early 2024.
Speaker Change: We believe these initiatives will be enabling higher factory absorption rates better data driven decisions and lead to greater throughput and our current facilities.
Speaker Change: As we capture more of our opportunity pipeline.
Speaker Change: Our ability to leverage our manufacturing facilities to handle greater demand improved product quality, while reducing overhead cost is critical for our success. We are excited to share that we expect a significant milestone achievement in our factory automation planned to be achieved this quarter as we introduce new AI enabled inspection.
Speaker Change: <unk>.
Michael Murray: We're making these improvements to increase our manufacturing capacity without significant headcount increases to create a cost structure that turns volume into profit. and to have capacity to achieve our goal of at least $75 million in annual revenue in 2027. Our existing pipeline is very strong, with programs that have congressional budget demands throughout 2030. Additionally, several of the program contracts we have are IDIQ, or indefinite demand, indefinite quantity, which allows for even greater revenue demands than we currently have on order. Again, considering the recent tariff news and geopolitical tensions, it is important to note that our top three programs are built here in the United States, and much of our active opportunity pipeline will also be built here as well, whilst our NATO and European demands can be supported through our Scotland facility.
Speaker Change: We're making these improvements to increase our manufacturing capacity without significant head count increases to create a cost structure that turns volume into profits and to have capacity to achieve our goal of at least $75 million in annual revenue in 2027.
Speaker Change: Our existing pipeline is very strong with programs that have congressional budget demands throughout 2030.
Speaker Change: Additionally, several of the program contracts, we have our <unk> Iq or indefinite demand indefinite quantity.
Speaker Change: Which allows for even greater revenue demands than we currently have on order.
Speaker Change: Again, considering the recent tariff news and geopolitical tensions it is important to note that our top three programs are built here in the United States and much of our active opportunity pipeline will also be built here as well, whilst our NATO and European demands can be supported through our Scotland facility.
Michael Murray: All of this to say that we're very excited about the company's prospects, and we believe that in today's geopolitical environment, demand for micro displays, optics, application-specific solutions has increased steadily in defense, medical, and industrial markets. We're also incredibly proud of our expanding customer base. that is equally well-positioned to deliver outstanding products and technologies to their end customers.
Speaker Change: All of this to say that we're very excited about the company's prospects and we believe that in today's geopolitical environment demand for micro displays optics application specific solutions has increased steadily in defense medical and industrial markets. We're also incredibly proud of our expanding customer base.
Speaker Change: It is equally well positioned to deliver outstanding products and technologies to their end customers now along those lines recent reports surrounding the I've asked version 1.2 program being novae to Andrew have generated several questions about <unk> ability and ambition to capture some or all of these types of opportunities as it.
Michael Murray: Now, along those lines, recent reports surrounding the IVAS version 1.2 program being novated to Andrel have generated several questions about Kopin's ability and ambition to capture some or all of these types of opportunities. As a reminder, IVAS is a $22 billion U.S. Army program aimed at enhancing soldier capabilities through a body-worn mixed reality system, leveraging augmentation and virtual reality for improved situational awareness, lethality, and mobility. In January, it was reported that requests for information were issued regarding a technical update to the program, now called Soldier Born Mission Command, or SBMC. Kopin has submitted our responses to this program, along with contributing to several other Tier 1 firms who have also responded.
Speaker Change: Reminder, I've asked is at $22 billion U S. Army program aimed at enhancing soldier capabilities through a body worn mixed reality system, leveraging augmentation and virtual reality for improve situational awareness with Valerie and mobility and.
Speaker Change: In January it was reported that request for information where issued regarding a technical update to the program now called soldier borne mission command or SB M C.
Speaker Change: <unk> submitted our responses to this program along with contributing to several other tier one firms who have also responded.
Michael Murray: We have quoted these firms with our micro displays, and in several cases, we have included fully integrated modules, which include displays, optics, drive electronics, and our neural software in some cases. From the Kopin perspective, these are both positive reports about the overall program and our ability to contribute to it. But more importantly, the soldier-worn visual acuity market in defense is maturing and growing at a rapid rate within the U.S. and globally.
Speaker Change: We have quoted these firms with our micro displays and in several cases, we have included fully integrated modules, which include displays optics drive electronics and our neuro software in some cases.
Speaker Change: From the coup in perspective. These are both positive reports about the overall program and our ability to contribute to it but more importantly, the soldier worn visual acuity market in defense is maturing and growing at a rapid rate within the U S and globally.
Michael Murray: While SBMC remains a significant opportunity for Kopin, we continue to focus on developing our own integrated visual acuity system, or what we call IVAS-NOW solutions, which allow warfighters both a daytime and a nighttime solution that works seamlessly with their fielded systems like the current versions of night vision goggles, or NVGs, and popular helmet-worn systems. These new products allow Kopin immediate access to significant market potential, since there are millions of NVG goggles in use today, which require additional information sources to be visible through the goggles during operation. IVAS now utilizes currently available information systems and connections and data through the Android Team Awareness Kit, or ATAC for short, and our DAVAS solution, which is being offered with the Wilcox Fusion Claw System.
Speaker Change: <unk> remains a significant opportunity for Copan, we continue to focus on developing our own integrated visual acuity system or what we call I've asked now solutions, which allow warfighters, both the daytime and nighttime solution that works seamlessly with their fielded systems like the current versions of night vision goggles.
Speaker Change: Our <unk> and popular helmet worn systems.
Speaker Change: These new products allow coping immediate access to significant market potential since there are millions of N V. G goggles and used today, which require additional information sources to be visible through the goggles during operation.
Speaker Change: Now utilized as currently available information systems and connections and data through the Android team awareness kit or <unk> for short and our D. Var solution, which is being offered with the Wilcox fusion class system.
Michael Murray: This new strategy was affirmed recently to be valued as Kopin was awarded a multi-million dollar research and development contract for a new XR off the visor optical prototype for the Army, which we announced recently. Other exciting developments include our work on MicroLED product portfolio and the progression to our Neural Display Architecture, a highly advanced display that includes embedded sensors to track eye movement, position, and gaze, while simultaneously processing the tracking data within an AI engine that resides in the backplane of the display. The system adjusts the displayed information in real-time to optimize user experience and performance in high-stakes use cases.
Speaker Change: This new strategy was affirmed recently to be valued as Copan was awarded a multimillion dollar research and development contract for a new XR off divisor optical prototype for the army, which we announced recently.
Speaker Change: Other exciting developments include our work on micro led credit portfolio and the progression to our neural display architecture, a highly advanced display that includes embedded sensors to track eye movement positioning gaze, while simultaneously processing the tracking data within an AI engine that resides in the back plane of the display.
Speaker Change: The system adjust the displayed information in real time to optimize user experience and performance in high Stakes use cases for <unk>.
Michael Murray: Current demonstrable silicon is an OLED-on-silicon, however, we also will offer this technology as a micro-LED as well. We believe that this display system will be a great fit for next generation of defense visual augmentation system. It is also receiving significant interest from medical and consumer spatial computing manufacturers. As an example, our solution would reduce several internal cameras within the current Apple Vision Pro or Quest headsets, resulting in reduced size, weight, power consumption, while still offering great image quality, eye, and pupil tracking with dynamic controls.
Speaker Change: Demonstrable Silicon is an OLED on silicon. However, we also will offer this technology as a micro OLED as well.
Speaker Change: We believe that this display system will be a great fit for next generation of defense visual augmentation system. It is also receiving significant interest from medical and consumer spatial computing manufacturers. As an example, our solution would reduce several internal cameras win within the current Apple vision pro or quest head.
Speaker Change: Sets, resulting in reduced size weight power consumption, while still offering great image quality and pupil tracking with dynamic controls.
Michael Murray: We now have operational prototypes of this innovative hardware and software platform, and expect to announce more details on that very shortly.
Speaker Change: We now have operational prototypes of this innovative hardware and software platform and expect to announce more details on that very shortly.
Michael Murray: Now, with respect to our order book, so far in 2025, we have announced further contract wins, including a $14 million purchase order for thermal imaging assemblies, which has an additional $5 million for materials procurement.
Speaker Change: Now with respect to our order book So far in 2025, we have announced further contract wins, including a $14 million purchase order for thermal imaging assemblies, which has an additional $5 million for materials procurement.
Michael Murray: $4 million in orders for pilot helmet augmented reality systems, a $2 million follow-on order for helmets and rotary and fixed-wing pilot applications, and we've been awarded several million dollars in research funding for extended reality prototypes.
Speaker Change: $4 million in orders for pilot helmet augmented reality systems of $2 million follow on order for helmets, and rotary and fixed wing pilot applications and we've been awarded several million dollars in research funding for extended reality prototypes.
Michael Murray: We are excited about the tremendous opportunities that are in front of Kopin and believe the next few years will be an exciting time as we continue our pursuit to save lives. Our technology ultimately leads to increased safety for our warfighters, which means more of our men and women in uniform come home. Surgeons who use our CR3 headset from HMDMD will perform their operations more effectively, efficiently, and accurately, providing better patient outcomes. And firefighters who use our technology to see through dense smoke will find people in need.
Speaker Change: We are excited about the tremendous opportunities that are in front of coping and believe the next few years will be an exciting time as we continue our pursuit to save lives.
Speaker Change: Our technology ultimate leads to increased safety for our Warfighters, which means more of our men and women in uniform come home.
Speaker Change: Surgeons, who use our see our three headset from H M. D. M. D will perform their operations more effectively efficiently and accurately providing better patient outcomes and firefighters who use our technology to see through dense smoke well.
Find people in need.
Michael Murray: We take that work very seriously and have an incredibly dedicated and passionate team that comes to work every day with this mission top of mind.
Speaker Change: We take that work very seriously and have an incredibly dedicated and passionate team that comes to work every day with this mission top of mind.
Richard Snyder: I'll now turn the call over to our CFO, Rich Snyder, to review our results from the fourth quarter and full year of 2024 in further detail. Rich. Thank you, Michael. Turning to our financial results for the fourth quarter. Total revenues from Q4 were $14.6 million versus $8.6 million for the prior year, a 71% increase year over year. Product revenues for the fourth quarter ended December 28-24 were $12.6 million, compared to $6.8 million in the fourth quarter ended December 30. The increase in product revenues was a result of higher defense product revenues, which increased by $6 million year over year, almost 100% increase.
Speaker Change: I'll now turn the call over to our CFO Rich Sneider to review our results from the fourth quarter and full year of 2024 and further detail rich.
Rich Sneider: Thank you Michael.
Rich Sneider: Turning to our financial results for the fourth quarter.
Rich Sneider: Total revenues from Q4 were $14 6 million versus $8 6 million for the prior year.
Rich Sneider: 71% increase year over year.
Rich Sneider: Product revenues for the fourth quarter ended December 28, 24 were $12 6 million compared to $6 8 million in the fourth quarter ended December 30 <unk>.
Rich Sneider: The increase in product revenues as a result of higher defense product revenues, which increased by $6 million year over year.
Rich Sneider: Almost 100% increase.
Richard Snyder: In the fourth quarter of 2024, funded research and development revenues were $1.7 million, a decrease of $60,000 as compared to Q4 2023, essentially flat. Cost of product revenues for the fourth quarter of 2024 were $10.6 million, or 84% of net product revenues, compared to $7.2 million, or 106% of net product revenues for the fourth quarter of 2023. The increase in cost of property as a result of higher volumes. which provided fixed-cost lessons. R&D expenses for the fourth quarter of 2024 were $3.1 million compared to $2.2 million a year ago. This is primarily due to an increase in internal costs to establish OLED deposition capabilities in Europe and new display development.
Rich Sneider: In the fourth quarter of 2024 funded research and development revenues were $1 7 million a decrease of 60000 as compared to Q4 2023 essentially flat.
Rich Sneider: Cost of product revenues for the fourth quarter of 2024 were $10 6 million or 84% of net product revenues compared to $7 2 million or 106% of net product revenues for the fourth quarter of 2023.
Rich Sneider: The increase in cost of property and says about the higher volumes.
Rich Sneider: Which provided fixed cost leverage.
Rich Sneider: R&D expenses for the fourth quarter of 2024 were $3 1 million compared to $2 2 million a year ago.
Rich Sneider: This is primarily due to an increase in internal costs.
Rich Sneider: To establish OLED deposition capabilities in Europe, and new display development.
Richard Snyder: SG&A expenses were $3.1 million in the fourth quarter of 24 compared to $5.9 million in the fourth quarter of 23. The decrease was primarily due to a decrease in professional fees of $2.9 million, most of which was legal expenses.
Rich Sneider: SG&A expenses were $3 1 million in the fourth quarter 24, compared to $5 9 million in the fourth quarter of 2003 the.
Rich Sneider: The decrease was primarily due to a decrease in professional fees of $2 9 million most of which was legal expense.
Richard Snyder: Turning to the bottom line, the net loss for the fourth quarter of 24 was $1.9 million or $0.01 per share compared with a net loss attributed to Kopin of $6.5 million or $0.06 per share for the fourth quarter of 23.
Rich Sneider: Turning to the bottom line the net loss for the fourth quarter of 24 was $1 9 million or <unk> <unk> per share compared with a net loss attributed koeppen of $6 5 million or six per share for the fourth quarter of 'twenty three.
Richard Snyder: Turning to the full year results. Total revenues for the year were $50.3 million, compared to $40.4 million for the year ended December 30, 2023, a 25% year-over-year increase. Product revenues for the year ended December 28, 24, with $43.6 million, compared to $25.9 million for the year ended December 30, 23. The increase in product revenue was a result of an 82% increase in defense product revenue. R&D revenues were 3% lower or again essentially flat. Product revenues for 2024 were $36.2 million, or 83% of net product revenue, compared to $24.7 million, or 96% of net product revenues in the prior year.
Rich Sneider: Turning to the full year results.
Rich Sneider: Total revenues for the year with $53 million compared to $40 4 million for the year ended December 30, 23, 25% year over year increase.
Rich Sneider: Product revenues for the year ended December 28, 24 of $43 6 million compared to $25 9 million for the year ended December 32003.
Rich Sneider: The increase in product revenues was a result of an 82% increase in defense product revenues.
Rich Sneider: R&D revenues were 3% lower again essentially flat.
Rich Sneider: Product revenues for 2024 were $36 2 million or 83% of net product revenues compared to $24 7 million.
We're 96% of net product revenues in the prior year.
Richard Snyder: Cost of product revenues decreased as a percentage of revenues in 24 as compared to 23, primarily due to an increase in unit volume of thermal weapon sites from higher sales in 24 as compared to 23, which resulted in a lower fixed cost overhead cost per unit. The company also implemented several programs and hired additional resources to improve manufacturing quality and efficiency. R&D expenses for 24 were $9.6 million compared to $10.8 million for 23, an 11% decrease year-over-year. funded R&D for 2024 decreased $3.3 million as compared to $23 primarily due to the completion of contracts for defense program awarded prior to 20 Internal R&D expenses for 2024 increased $2.2 million as compared to the prior year, primarily due to an increase in display development costs and costs incurred to establish European foundry services.
Rich Sneider: Cost of product revenues decreased as a percentage of revenues and 24 as compared to 23, primarily due to an increase in unit volume of thermal weapon sights from higher sales and 24 as compared to 23, which resulted in a lower fixed cost overhead cost per unit.
Rich Sneider: Company also implemented several programs and hired additional resources to improve manufacturing quality and efficiencies.
Rich Sneider: R&D expenses for 24 was $9 6 million compared to $10 8 million for 'twenty, three and 11% decrease year over year.
Rich Sneider: Funded R&D for 2024 decreased $3 3 million as compared to 23, primarily due to the completion of contracts for defense program awarded prior to 2004.
Rich Sneider: Internal R&D expenses for 2000 and for increased $2 2 million as compared to the prior year, primarily due an increase in display development costs and costs incurred to establish European foundry service.
Richard Snyder: Selling General Administrative Expenses were $22.8 million for 2024 compared to $21.8 million for 2023. FG&A expenses for 2024 increased as compared to 2023 primarily due to an increase of $1.4 million in legal and professional fees, $2 million in excise taxes, partially offset by $400,000 of lower bad debt expense, and $200,000 decrease in non-cash stock-based compensation.
Rich Sneider: Selling general and administrative expenses were $22 8 million for 24 compared to $21 8 million for 'twenty three.
Rich Sneider: SG&A expenses for 2004 increase as compared to 23, primarily due to an increase of $1 4 million in legal and professional fees.
Rich Sneider: $2 million in excise taxes, partially offset by 400000 of lower bad debt expense and 200000 decrease in noncash stock based compensation.
Richard Snyder: Net loss attributed to Kopin for the year-ended 2024 was $43.9 million, or $0.33 per share, compared with the net loss attributed to Kopin of a corporation of $19.7 million, or $0.18 per share, for the year-ended 2023. Excluding the $24.8 million of litigation accrual, the adjusted net loss attributed to Kopin would have been $19.1 million, or $0.14 per share. Net cast use and operating activities for 24 were approximately 14.2 million. Kopin's cash equivalents and marketable securities were approximately $36.6 million at the end of the year.
Rich Sneider: Net loss attributed cope and for the year ended 2024 was $43 9 million or <unk> 33 per share compared with a net loss attributed Copeland of cooperation of $19 7 million or.
Rich Sneider: Or <unk> 18 per share for the year ended 23.
Rich Sneider: Excluding the $24 8 million of litigation accrual.
Rich Sneider: The adjusted net loss attributed Copa would have been $19 1 million or <unk> 14 per share.
Rich Sneider: Net cash used in operating activities for 24 were approximately $14 2 million.
Rich Sneider: <unk> cash and equivalents in marketable securities were approximately $36.6 million at the end of the year.
Michael Murray: Listeners should review our Form 10-K for the year ended December 28th for all the additional disclosures and with that I'll turn it back to Michael. Thanks very much, Rich. Again, I would just like to thank our audit firm, our investors, and the great employees of Kopin for turning in a fantastic result in 2024.
Michael: Listeners should review our Form 10-K for the year ended December 28 for all the additional disclosures and with that I'll turn it back to Michael.
Michael: Thanks, very much rich again, I would just like to thank our audit firm, our investors and the great employees of coping for turning in a fantastic result in 2024, and we look forward to a great 2025, and with that operator, we'll open it up for some questions.
Operator: And we look forward to a great 2025. And with that, Operator, we'll open it up for some Perfect, thank you so much.
Speaker Change: Perfect. Thank you so much ladies and gentlemen, as a reminder, if you'd like to ask a question that is star one on your telephone keypad, if you need to remove yourself from the queue that does start to once again that is star one to ask a question. We will take our first question from George dinner weekends with Canaccord Genuity. Please go ahead.
Operator: Ladies and gentlemen, as a reminder, if you would like to ask a question, that is star 1 on your telephone keypads. If you need to remove yourself from the queue, that is star 2. Once again, that is star 1 to ask your question.
Jaeson Schmidt: We'll take our first question from George Genericas with Canaccord Genuity. Please go ahead. Good morning, everyone. Thank you for taking my question.
George: Hi, Good morning, everyone. Thank you for taking my questions.
Michael Murray: I'd like to ask a little bit about, hey, neural display and maybe you can outline any technical improvements and how close you are, you think we are to commercial deployments and commercial readiness. Neural display right now is demonstrable. We are giving it signals, producing signals, and taking signals, which is a huge step. We've also been working on our software. We look to produce neural display in a headset and demonstrate it this year so that folks can see the capability actually while they're wearing the displays. So that's the next big milestone is actually putting this new technology into a headset so people can see it, feel it, and use it.
Speaker Change: I'd like to ask a little bit about.
Speaker Change: Hey, neural display and.
Speaker Change: Maybe you can outline any technical improvements and how close you are you think we are the commercial deployments and commercial readiness. Thank you.
Speaker Change: Neural display right now is demonstrable.
Speaker Change: We are giving signals producing signals and taking signals, which is a huge step. We've also been working on our software.
Speaker Change: We look to produce neural display in a headset and demonstrated this year, so that folks can see the capability actually while they're wearing the displays so thats. The next big milestone is actually putting this new technology into a headset. So people can see it.
Speaker Change: And use it.
Michael Murray: And that's the next big milestone, George. And we're hopeful to announce a milestone in that area, I'd say this quarter or next quarter.
Speaker Change: The next big milestone George and we're hopeful to announce.
Speaker Change: A milestone in that area I would say this quarter or next.
Operator: Thank you.
Speaker Change: Thank you maybe just as a follow up.
Jaeson Schmidt: Maybe this is a follow-up question on the financials. You've given guidance and revenue for 2025. I'm wondering if you could just maybe a little bit more detail on what you expect the OPEX development to be. You made a remark about Q4 being the milestone. So is it about $6 million a quarter we should expect in OPEX in 2025? Thank you.
Speaker Change: A question on the financials, you've given guidance in revenue for 2025, I'm wondering can you just.
Speaker Change: Maybe a little bit more detail on what you expect the opex development to be made.
Speaker Change: Remark about Q4.
Speaker Change: The milestone so is it about $6 million a quarter, we should expect in Opex in 2000.
Speaker Change: 25, thank you.
Richard Snyder: What's your definition of OpEx? Some folks have cost of sales in it, some folks don't, so I just want to make sure. You just FD and NRD. Correct, correct. Yeah, so we should be in the range for SGNA of around 10 to 12 million. And then R&D fluctuates, as it said, it's around. about $2.5 million for internal and external. The funded R&D piece is always questionable because it's dependent upon the revenues itself. But internal, let me put it this way. Our goal for internal R&D is 7% of revenue. That's what we're budgeting, and we run 10 to 12 of SG&A.
Speaker Change: What's your definition of Opex.
Speaker Change: Some folks have cost of sales and some folks, though so just want to make sure.
Speaker Change: Yes.
Speaker Change: R&D.
Speaker Change: Correct correct.
Speaker Change: Yes, so we should be in the range for SG&A of around $10 million to $12 million and then R&D fluctuates as it said.
Speaker Change: It's.
Speaker Change: Around.
Speaker Change: But.
Speaker Change: $2 5 million for our internal and externally funded R&D piece is always questionable because it's dependent upon the revenues itself, but internal let me put it this way our goal for internal R&D at 7% of revenues.
Speaker Change: Alright, Thats, what were budgeting and we run 10 to 12 of SG&A.
Richard Snyder: As I said, FRD, R&D expense is a little bit more difficult because it depends on the... FRD programs revenue, but so. And as a reminder, FRD is funded research and development that we receive from customers. Got it. Okay.
Speaker Change: As I said.
Speaker Change: R&D expenses, a little bit more difficult because it depends on the.
Speaker Change: FRG programs revenue.
Speaker Change: So.
Speaker Change: And as a reminder, <unk> is funded research and development that we received from customers.
Speaker Change: Got it okay. Thank you.
Operator: Thank you.
Operator: And our next question...
Speaker Change: And our next question.
Jaeson Schmidt: And our next question comes from Jaeson Schmidt with Lake Street, please go ahead. Hey guys, thanks for taking my questions. Just curious if you've seen sort of any impact in customer engagements or kind of contract push outs with Doge and kind of the government changes that are going on. And I guess relatedly, it'd be helpful if you could comment on what you saw from an order activity perspective here in Q1. Sure. So we have not seen any impacts from government budget cuts. We do have many requests in for government funding, whether that be through the DPA Office, CHIPS Act, or the DIB.
Jason Smith: And our next question comes from Jason Smith with Lake Street. Please go ahead.
Jason Smith: Hey, guys. Thanks for taking my questions. Just curious if you've seen sort of any impact in customer engagements or kind of contract push outs with <unk> and kind of the government changes that are going on and I guess relatedly. If it would be helpful. If you could comment on what you saw from an order activity.
Jason Smith: Perspective here in Q1.
Speaker Change: Sure. So we have not seen any impacts from <unk>.
Jason Smith: Government budget cuts we.
Jason Smith: We do have many requests and for government funding whether that be through the DPA Office Chips Act.
Speaker Change: Or did so.
Michael Murray: So those requests are not in plan, Jaeson. We're not projecting them to be in plan, but they are significant, close to well over $100 million of requests, actually. But we are not forecasting those to come in until we have a greater view and more interaction. I have spent a tremendous amount of time on Capitol Hill the past few months. It's been public to help pursue those funding requests, along with our customer, which is great.
Speaker Change: Those requests are not in plan, Jason we're not projecting them to be in plan, but there are significant close to well over $100 million of request actually but we are not forecasting those to come in.
Speaker Change: Until we have a greater view.
Speaker Change: And more interaction I have spent a tremendous amount of time on Capitol Hill in the past few months that's been public.
Speaker Change: Help pursue those funding requests along with our customer which is great, but we have not seen to be clear any push outs or concerns for cancellations of our backlog or future business at this point in time because of dose.
Michael Murray: But we have not seen, to be clear, any pushouts or concerns for cancellations of our backlog or future business at this point in time because of DOJ. Secondly, we have actually seen an influx of requests for training and simulation opportunities. Training and simulation usually is the first indicator of conflict, because you want to train your troops. And we're seeing that globally, more specifically in Europe, and some here in the United States. And then lastly, we're seeing tremendous increases of demand for optical systems, for soldier worn systems, and also first person viewer drone control requests. So that's across the world, Korea to Europe to the United States.
Speaker Change: Secondly, we have actually seen an influx of requests for training and stimulation opportunities Trey.
Speaker Change: Training and stimulation usually is the first indicator of conflict because you want to train your troops and we're seeing that globally more specifically in Europe and some here in the United States and then lastly, we're seeing tremendous increases of demand for optical systems for soldier worn systems and also first person view.
Speaker Change: Sure.
Speaker Change: Drone control requests.
Speaker Change: So that's across the World Korea to Europe to the United States.
Jaeson Schmidt: So we have not seen a slowdown at this point. Okay, that's really helpful.
We have not seen a slowdown at this point.
Speaker Change: Okay Thats fairly helpful. And then just shifting gears to the one coping initiatives, what's the timeline for most of those to be fully completed.
Michael Murray: And then just shifting gears to the OneKopin initiatives, what's the timeline for most of those to be fully completed? So we have a very aggressive schedule, Jaeson. As I mentioned in my prepared remarks, we're implementing the first optical test solution this quarter. And each quarter, we have phases of new automation that we're adding. And to be clear, we're not looking to reduce headcount because of this. We're looking to add throughput to the fab to support the volumes that we're currently seeing in backlog, as well as a number of opportunities that we expect to come in.
Speaker Change: So we have a very aggressive schedule, Jason as I mentioned.
Speaker Change: In my prepared remarks, we're implementing the first optical test solution this quarter and each quarter, we have phases of new automation that we're adding and to be clear, we're not looking to reduce head count because of this we're looking to add throughput to the fab to support the volumes that were <unk>.
Speaker Change: Currently seeing in backlog as well as.
Speaker Change: A number of opportunities that we expect to come in now I didn't answer the second part of your last question I apologize. So we've seen pretty significant orders in Q1, we are expecting to announce several new orders as well, we just couldnt get them out before the call.
Michael Murray: Now, I didn't answer the second part of your last question. I apologize. So we have seen pretty significant orders in Q1. We are expecting to announce several new orders as well. We just couldn't get them out before the call. But we have been receiving fairly significant and steady order book activity for 2025, as well as 2026. So look for more of those press releases shortly. Gotcha. Appreciate all the color. Thanks a lot, guys.
Speaker Change: But we have been receiving fairly significant and steady order book activity for 2025 as well as 2026.
Speaker Change: So look for more of those press releases shortly.
Speaker Change: Gotcha I appreciate all the color. Thanks, a lot guys.
Jason Smith: Thanks, Jason.
Operator: And as a reminder, ladies and gentlemen, that is star one for a question.
Speaker Change: As a reminder, ladies and gentlemen that is star one for a question. We'll go next to Glenn Mattson with Ladenburg Thalmann. Please go ahead.
Glenn Mattson: We'll go next to Glenn Mattson with Leidenberg-Thalmann. Please go ahead. Hi, thanks for taking the questions.
Glenn Mattson: Hi, Thanks for taking the questions.
Richard Snyder: Curious, maybe Rich, on the gross margin that had been sequentially going up for a couple quarters that ticked down this quarter, can you just give me some dynamics? what the difference is there and then your best estimate for how we should think about it for next year. Yeah, so. We, as part of the One Kopin Initiative, the markets we focused on, we took, I wouldn't say aggressive positions, but we really looked at what we thought the business was going to be in 2025 and took some reserves on inventories in markets that we just didn't think we were going to really pursue going forward.
Speaker Change: I'm curious maybe rich on the gross margin that had been done sequentially going up for a couple of quarters that ticked down. This quarter can you just give me some dynamics of.
Glenn Mattson: What the difference is there.
Glenn Mattson: Your best estimate for how we should think about it for next year.
Glenn Mattson: Yes.
Glenn Mattson: Yes.
Glenn Mattson: We as part of the.
Glenn Mattson: The one <unk> initiative the markets, we focused on we took.
Glenn Mattson: I wouldn't say aggressive positions, but we really looked at what we thought the business was going to be in 2025 and took some reserves on inventories in markets that we just didn't think we're going to really pursue.
Richard Snyder: Basically, some of the products are getting older, but that's probably the only real anomaly in the quarter. Otherwise, it's just a lot of volume. There's some inefficiencies when we're trying to create that much volume, which is why the automation is so critical for us. To date, when we try to scale, we're hiring people because there's still a lot of touch labor, and so that's why for us to leverage, really get the margins moving in the right direction, automation is the key. The good news is we've got a lot of volume. We just got to be able to make it a little cheaper to expand the margins.
Glenn Mattson: Going forward.
Glenn Mattson: Basically some of the products are getting older.
Glenn Mattson: But that's probably the only real anomaly in the quarter.
Glenn Mattson: Otherwise, it's just a lot of volume.
Glenn Mattson: There's some inefficiencies when we're trying to create that much volume, which is why the automation is so critical for us to date. When we tried to scale. We're hiring people because there's still a lot of touch labor and so that's why for us to leverage really get the margins moving in the right direction automation.
Glenn Mattson: The key.
Glenn Mattson: So the good news is we've got a lot of volume, we just got to be able to make it a law.
Little cheaper to expand the margin and.
Richard Snyder: We do expect margin expansion throughout 2025. So kind of what the middle of the year look like, is that what you think we'll be in that range, or a little beyond that with the automation? Yeah, I mean, so I guess in like, the high point was Q3, you were like 24% product or so. Is that feel like the range you want to be in? Or is that? Yes, that's exactly right.
Glenn Mattson: And we do expect margin expansion throughout 2025.
Glenn Mattson: So kind of with the middle of the year look like when do you think we'll get to it will be in that range or a little beyond that with <unk>, but the automation or.
Glenn Mattson: Yes.
Glenn Mattson: I guess in like the.
Glenn Mattson: Pipeline was Q3, you were like 24% product or so is that.
Glenn Mattson: The range you want to be in or is that yes, yes.
Glenn Mattson: Yes, that's exactly right.
Michael Murray: And Glenn, this is Michael. There was also a bit of mix in Q4. We had several smaller programs that came back into revenue in Q4, actually, that we were not expecting in some cases, that were lower margin than expected. So we think that Q3 of 24 is the model in terms of margins. And we think with these inspection systems and automation systems that we're adding to the FAB, we'll improve that margin. As we increase our revenue, we want to hold our headcount firm and not add headcount, but add automation so that we can produce more with what we have and create those margin capture opportunities.
Glenn Mattson: Yes, Glenn this is Michael.
Glenn Mattson: There was also a bit of mix in Q4, we had several smaller.
Glenn Mattson: Programs that came back into revenue.
Glenn Mattson: In Q4 actually that we were not expecting in some cases.
Glenn Mattson: That were lower margin than expected so.
Glenn Mattson: We think that Q3 of 24 is the model in terms of margins and we think with these inspection systems and automation systems that we're adding to the fab will.
Glenn Mattson: We will improve that margin.
Glenn Mattson: As we increase our revenue we want to hold our head count firm and not add head count, but add automation. So that we can produce more with what we have.
Glenn Mattson: And create those margin capture opportunities.
Glenn Mattson: Thanks, that's helpful.
Glenn Mattson: Thanks Thats helpful.
Michael Murray: Can I give you the opportunity to discuss if there's any update or do you have any guesstimate on when there'll be an update on the lawsuit? No, I have no update at this point. We have not heard from the courts in Colorado. We have been actively putting in motions throughout Q4 around the case with in Massachusetts, actually, that Blue Radios is involved with. And we entered those motions in Q4 to highlight the summary judgment in Massachusetts, as well as some inconsistencies that we saw in testimonies, and some contradictions that we see between the cases. So those motions went in in Q4.
Glenn Mattson: Can I give you the opportunity to discuss if theres any update or do you have any guesstimate I wanted to be an update on the lawsuit.
Glenn Mattson: No I have no update at this point.
Glenn Mattson: We have not heard from the courts in Colorado.
Glenn Mattson: We have been actively putting in motions throughout Q4.
Glenn Mattson: Around the case with.
Glenn Mattson:
Glenn Mattson: In Massachusetts actually that Blue radios is involved with and we entered those motions in Q4 to highlight.
Glenn Mattson: The summary judgment in Massachusetts, as well as some inconsistency is that we saw in testimonies and some contradictions that we see between the cases, so those motions within in Q4, they're available online I believe you can look at them for your own edification on Pacer Dot org.
Michael Murray: They're available online, I believe you can look at them for your own edification on PACER.org. But we have not heard any judgments on those motions. There's no hearing scheduled, and we have not heard from the Colorado court at this point in time.
Glenn Mattson: But we have not heard any judgments on those motions theres no hearings scheduled and we have not heard from the Colorado Court.
Glenn Mattson: At this point in time, yes, just for clarification for folks who may not be aware not only did blue radios, who us they sued our law firm and that law suit against our law firm was thrown out on summary judgment.
Michael Murray: Just for clarification for folks who may not be aware, not only did Blue Radios sue us, they sued our law firm. And that lawsuit against our law firm was thrown out on summary judgment. with no validity. And it's fair to say that Blue Radios, we believe, has or will put in their appeal on that case in Massachusetts, to be clear.
Glenn Mattson: With no validity.
Glenn Mattson: And it's fair to say that Blue radios, we believe has.
Glenn Mattson: Or will put in their appeal on that case in Massachusetts.
Glenn Mattson: To be clear.
Michael Murray: Amazing, it's been almost a year, or close to a year since that release came out. There's no way to force it in the judge's hand in terms of speeding up the process, I guess. And then also, while you're answering that, is there much expectation for further legal expense this year as this thing winds down, or if there's any appeals or anything? Sure, so right now, you're correct. It's one full calendar year since the jury verdict. That's number one. Number two, I think we don't foresee any further major expense, with the exception of the appeal of whatever judgment, final judgment we receive in Colorado, if it's adverse.
Glenn Mattson: The amazing it's been almost a year or close to a year since that release come out Theres No theres no.
Glenn Mattson: Wait it forces the judge's hand in terms of speed up the process I guess.
Glenn Mattson: And then also by your answer.
Glenn Mattson: Is there much.
Glenn Mattson: Much expectation for further legal expense this year.
Thing winds down or if theres any appeals or anything like that thanks.
Glenn Mattson: Sure so.
Glenn Mattson: Right now you are correct.
Glenn Mattson: One full calendar year since the jury verdict.
Glenn Mattson: That's number one number two I think we don't foresee any further major expense with the exception of the appeal of whatever judgment final judgment, we received in Colorado, if its adverse.
Michael Murray: But I'm becoming more confident in our ability to reduce the damages, number one. Number two, I'm very much more confident in our ability to appeal any judgment in Colorado based on what's happening in Massachusetts as well as some of the motions that our law firm has put in in Q4. So I would say that we look forward to moving this forward. And, you know, the battle has just begun. It's not over. I think we're very much focused on our appeal. But that appeal, Glenn, is not a forever type of cost. It is bounded by the document that you put into the appellate court.
Glenn Mattson: But I'm becoming more.
Glenn Mattson: Yeah.
Glenn Mattson: Confident in our ability to reduce the damages number one number two or more very much more confident in our ability to appeal any judgment in Colorado based on.
Glenn Mattson: Whats happening in Massachusetts, as well as some of the motions that are law firm has put in in Q4, So I would say that.
Glenn Mattson: We look forward to moving this forward and.
Glenn Mattson: The Battle has just begun its not over I think we're very much focused on our appeal, but that appeal Glenn.
Glenn Mattson: Is not a forever type of.
Glenn Mattson: Cost it is bounded by the document that you put into the appellate court and we don't foresee it being significant in terms of the cost structure to appeal. This judgment, if and when we receive it so.
Michael Murray: And we don't foresee it being significant in terms of the cost structure to appeal this judgment if and when we receive it. So we think we'll get a normalized cost structure here in Q1 and Q2. And the appeal, we believe, will be, you know, sub a million dollars of cost. Sorry, did you say several or seven? a sub one million dollars so below one million dollars and that yeah and that's a one-time cost that's not a recurring cost um it's a one-time cost to um to to put the appeal in place Great.
Glenn Mattson: We think we will get a normalized cost structure here in Q1, and Q2 and the appeal, we believe will be sub $1 million.
Glenn Mattson: Cost.
Glenn Mattson: Sorry did you say several or seven I Didnt yard center.
Glenn Mattson: Sub $1 million so below $100.
Glenn Mattson: Yes, and that's a onetime cost that's not a recurring cost.
Glenn Mattson: It's a onetime costs too.
Glenn Mattson: To to put the appeal in place.
Glenn Mattson: Okay, great. Thanks for the color guys. Good luck.
Glenn Mattson: Thanks for coming, guys. Good luck. Thank you.
Michael Murray: We have no further questions in the queue, so I'll turn the call back over to Michael Murray for any closing Wonderful. Thank you, Operator. Again, thank you very much to our shareholders, our employees, and our customers for their patience with filing our 10-K. We're excited about this year and the future, and we look forward to talking to you very shortly on our 1Q25. Thanks very much, folks. Thank you.
Speaker Change: Thanks, Glenn Kim we have no further questions in the queue. So I'll turn the call back over to Michael Murray for any closing remarks.
Wonderful. Thank you operator again, thank you very much to our shareholders our employees and our customers for their patients with filing our 10-K. We're excited about this year in the future and we look forward to talking to you very shortly on our <unk> 25, thanks very much folks.
Operator: And ladies and gentlemen, that does conclude today's program. We thank you for your participation. You may disconnect at any time.
Speaker Change: Thank you and ladies and gentlemen that does conclude today's program. We thank you for your participation you may disconnect at any time.
Speaker Change: Okay.
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Operator: door do do an amount
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