Q2 2025 Deutsche Bank AG Earnings Call

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Speaker Change: At this time, it's my pleasure to hand over to Jana Patricia head of investor relations. Please go ahead.

Thank you for joining us for our second quarter, 2025 results. Call as usual, our chief executive officer, Christian saving will speak first followed by our Chief Financial Officer. James Vaughn Mula

Speaker Change: presentation is always, is available to download in the investor relations section of our website, db.com

Speaker Change: Before we get started, let me just remind you that the presentation contains forward-looking statements, which may not develop as we currently expect.

Speaker Change: We therefore ask you to take notice of the precautionary warning at the end of our materials.

Christian: With that, let me hand over to Christian.

Christian: Thank you, Jana. And a warm welcome from me. Our first half results demonstrate clearly, where, Deutsche Bank stands today,

Christian: our strategy has proven itself in different environments.

Christian: Our Global house Bank served clients at times of elevated, volatility in the second quarter and thanks to our Diversified model. We delivered resilient revenues, which grew 6% to 16.3 billion.

Christian: A line with our full year goal of around 32 billion euros.

Christian: And while it is still early, we are encouraged by the strong start of the third quarter.

Christian: Non-interest expenses declined 15% year on year to 10.2 billion euros in line with our full year outlook resulting in a cost income ratio of 62%.

Christian: This strong operating, leverage produced the return on tangible, Equity of 11% in the first half year, which means we delivered returns in line with our Target of greater than 10% in both quarters, including the second quarter, that was impacted by increased volatility.

Christian: Our cet1 ratio of 14.2% enables us to deploy Capital, to grow our business, and to support clients while increasing returns to shareholders.

Christian: We are absolutely focused both on delivering, our year-end targets.

Christian: And on preparing the next phase of our strategy.

Christian: To further boost returns and value generation for our shareholders Beyond 2025.

Christian: As you can see on slide 3, we delivered a pre-provision profit of 6.2 billion in the first half, nearly double the same period in 2024.

Christian: Adjusting for post Bank takeover, litigation impacts.

Christian: Pre-provision profit was up 29% year on year on the back of strong, operating, leverage of 10%.

Christian: Resulting in a 37% increase in the pretext profit over. What?

Christian: Was already a strong operating performance last year.

Christian: Robust revenues reflect our well Diversified business. Mix with 74% from more predictable revenue streams than the corporate bank. Private Bank asset management and fixed financing

Christian: net commission and fee income increased by 4% year-on-year in line with our goal to boost revenues from fee based and capital like businesses.

Christian: As anticipated, net interest income, in Key Banking book, segments and other funding also remained resilient.

Christian: Excluding the impact of the postbank Takeover litigation provision in both periods. Non-interest expenses declined 4%.

Christian: Adjusted costs remain flat and as we intended significant progress on our operational efficiency measures is offsetting business, Investments and inflation.

Christian: Now, let's look at divisional. Developments on slide 4.

Christian: All 4 business.

Christian: Delivered double-digit returns in the first half of this year.

Christian: And we believe they will continue to build on this. Our Diversified business, mix is poised to perform in a fast-changing environment, particularly, as our focused Investments to serve, clients are paying off across the platform.

Christian: Our corporate bank is a leading Market position in Germany and with deep roots in our home Market is perfectly positioned to help clients capitalize on opportunities, created by investment, programs in Germany and Europe, and the improving business momentum. Overall

Christian: We are already preparing for this. As an example, we are cooperating with kfw and eib, to support lines in Germany with tailored Solutions.

Christian: Additionally, its Global markets presence positions, the corporate bank, well, to support multinational clients as they respond to the rapidly involving environment,

Christian: The Investment Bank is focused on consolidating its position as the leading European Fick franchise.

Christian: while origination and advisory is looking to grow market, share specifically in advisory aided by recent Investments,

Christian: Driving further Revenue diversification.

Christian: Our platform is ideally placed to help institutional and corporate clients serve the German, and European infrastructure. And defense agenda, especially in Germany, where we have the leading OA franchise, including in Aerospace, and defense where we have recently invested further in our dedicated sector of coverage team.

Christian: And our investment in corporate banks have already seen increased demand for Defense Finance.

Christian: Our on a team has been involved in deals. Spending Equity Capital markets m&a and financing. While the corporate bank sees gross potential particular in trade, Finance solutions, for short-term and long-term financing.

In the private bank. We are pleased to see the progress on our transformation reflected in the Improvement in returns seen here today.

Christian: Personal banking continues to drive efficiency through Workforce, reductions, and Branch Network optimization mainly in Germany.

These steps.

Christian: Combined with increasing. Digitalization are enabling us to streamline operations and innovate our offerings.

At the same time, we are focusing on investments in Gross wealth management and private banking, deepening, segment, coverage leveraging. The bank's broader product suite, for our clients,

Christian: Progress made and the fact that the private bank is well positioned to help clients take advantage of current trends. Make us confident, we will see returns improved further in the medium term.

Christian: Asset Management stands to build from its Diversified assets under management of more than 1 trillion euros. And we believe it is ideally placed, not only to serve German and European investors, but also to act as a gateway to Europe for Global Investors.

Christian: Clearly, both our asset Gathering businesses will support 1 of the Strategic initiatives of the savings and investment Union.

Christian: Fostering citizens wealth by broadening their access to Capital markets, as we are Germany's leading wealth manager and Retail fund manager. In addition to being its leading Capital, markets Bank,

James: Before I hand over to James, let me conclude on the progress toward our 2025 delivery on slide 5.

James: Let me start with Revenue growth.

James: Since 2021, we have achieved a compound annual growth rate of 5.9% in the middle of our target range of 5.5 to 6.5%

James: Second. We have achieved around 90% of our 2 and a half billion Euro Target for operational. Efficiencies with 2.2 billion euros in cost efficiencies either delivered or expected from completed measures

James: and we continue with our strict cost management approach, which includes strategic and tactical measures to deliver our profitability and efficiency targets.

James: Third Capital, efficiencies have reached a cumulative total of 30 billion already. At the high end of the bank's target range for full year 2025 and contributing to our strong C1 ratio.

James: We delivered another 2 billion euros of rwa, reductions this quarter through secretar and transactions.

James: And we are not stopping here.

James: We already see opportunities to deliver further Capital efficiencies in the second half of 2025.

James: With the C1 ratio of 14.2%. This quarter we feel very comfortable with our commitment, to surpassing our 8 billion Euro Target for total distributions to shareholders.

James: In fact, we already applied for a second share buyback. In addition to the previously announced 2.1 billion Euro distribution for this year.

James: And James will shortly cover our Pathways to materially reduce or potentially eliminate the impact of the output floor from the implementation of C rr3.

James: Sum up our first half results demonstrate that we are on track to meet our 2025 Financial targets and we are fully focused on delivering them.

James: In parallel, we are working on the next phase of our strategic agenda. To further increase value, generation Beyond 2025

James: We see significant potential to unlock additional value from the combination of our strategic actions and Market opportunities. Arising from growth stimulus defense spending and structural reforms in Europe.

James: The made for Germany initiative, which we launched together with leading German companies earlier this week, underscores a shared commitment by both government and Industry to prioritize. Growth and competitiveness.

James: We also see increasing Global investor demand to deploy funds into the German economy.

James: All in all given our unique domestic positioning and Global Reach. This is a clear net positive for us.

James: We have built a resilient and diverse business mix and a strong Capital base and we are now in the sustainable growth stage.

James: This allows us to fine-tune our business model and extract further value by strictly applying our SVA framework.

James: Targeted re-engineering and further developing our leadership culture.

James: We look forward to updating you in more detail, on our plans later this year with that. Let me hand over to James.

James: Thank you, Christian and good morning.

James: As you can see on slide 7, we saw continued delivery this quarter against all the broader objectives and targets. We set ourselves for 2025

James: Our Revenue growth cost income ratio and rote are developing in line with our full year objectives.

James: Our year-to-date performance continues to support our revenue and non-interest expense objectives before FX effects of around 32 and 20.8 billion euros. Respectively note, if current FX rates were to persist the weaker US dollar would result in a small headwind to pre-tax profit, as the negative impact on revenues would be slightly greater than the benefit on expenses.

James: Our Capital position is strong and our liquidity metrics are sound.

James: The liquidity coverage ratio finished the quarter at 136% and the net stable, funding ratio was 120%.

James: With that, let me now turn to the second quarter highlights on slide 8.

James: We continue to demonstrate strong franchise momentum across the bank and our Diversified and complimentary business. Mix resulted in a reported Revenue growth of 3%, year-on-year or 5%. If adjusted for foreign exchange translation impacts

James: Our cost income ratio of 63.6% remained in line with our guidance for 2025.

James: Second quarter non-operating costs. Benefited from a modest provision release. Mainly driven by further settlements related to the Poss Bank takeover litigation matter.

Profit generation was robust and our post tax return on tangible Equity of 10.1% continues to support the ambition to deliver sustainable returns of greater than 10% in 2025 and Beyond.

In the second quarter diluted earnings per share was 48, cents and tangible book. Value per share, increased to 2950 up, 3% year on year.

James: The sequential development, mainly reflects at1 coupon and dividend payments as well as FX impacts.

James: before I go on a few remarks on corporate and other

James: With further information in the appendix on slide 38.

James: CNO generated a pre-tax profit of 28 million euros in the corner. Mainly from positive revenues, and valuation, and timing, partially offset by shareholder expenses and other funding and liquidity impacts.

James: Let me now turn to some of drivers of these results starting with net interest income on slide 9.

James: Nii across Key Banking book, segments and other funding was 3.4 billion euros. Stable quarter on quarter despite headwinds from a weaker US dollar.

James: Private Bank continues to deliver strong knee supported by

James: Our structural hedge portfolio, while corporate bank nii remains stable supported by the ongoing hedge rollover loan income, and a 1-off benefit from hedge portfolio. Optimization

James: Thick financing benefited from loan growth. In the first quarter with strong lending margins, offsetting FX effects.

James: With respect to the full year, we confirm our prior guidance of 13.6 billion euros.

James: Detail on in the appendix on slide 25.

James: And volume growth combined with stronger, lending income in Fick, as well as lower funding costs.

Together, these are more than offsetting margin, normalization, and FX headwinds.

James: Turning to slide 10 adjusted costs were just over 5 billion euros for the quarter cost discipline across the franchise. Remain strong.

James: Compensation costs were slightly lower on a year-on-year basis. As wage growth was more than offset by ongoing measures for Workforce optimization and beneficial FX impacts.

James: With that, let me turn to provision for credit losses on slide 11.

James: Stage, 3 provision, for credit losses, materially reduced in the second quarter to 300 million euros, reflecting a model update. Mainly betting fitting for the private bank, while Provisions for commercial real estate. Continue to be elevated.

James: Stage 1 and 2 Provisions, remained at a high level at 123 million euros and also included an impact from the aforementioned model updates as well as portfolio related to facts and moderate charges relating to Ford looking information. Net of the overlay we built in the first quarter.

James: The model updates, mainly impacted CRA related provisions and reflect updates to loss given default assumptions to align with the latest Eva a requirements. Incorporating a change in assumptions applied in portfolio level calculations.

James: On a year-to-date basis. Overall CRA Provisions, stand at 430 million euros as guided in Prior quarters. The impact from new non-performing items is limited but we are seeing ongoing valuation pressure on existing non-performing exposures particularly on the US West Coast.

James: While developments around CRA as well as the macroeconomic environment. Continued to create uncertainty. We feel comfortable with our broader portfolio, performance and asset quality. And we currently anticipate Provisions to ameliorate in the second half of the year.

James: With that. Let me turn to Capital on slide 12.

James: Strong second quarter earnings, net of 81 coupon and dividend deductions combined with diligent Resource Management. Led to a cet1 ratio of 14.2% up 42 basis points sequentially.

James: Lower risk. Weighted assets were driven by credit risk, benefiting from continued execution of capital efficiency measures predominantly through 2 securitization transactions. During the quarter Market risk, remains flat,

James: Increases at the beginning of the quarter, reflecting Market turbulence at the time have been offset through strict, risk, management and hedging.

James: Our second quarter, leverage ratio was 4.7% up by 8 basis points, principally driven by FX effects.

As higher, Tier 1, Capital was mostly offset by higher trading inventory.

With regards to bailing ratios, we continue to operate with significant buffers over all requirements.

James: Before we turn to our divisional performance, I want to offer my perspective on the bank's most recent cr3 disclosure on slide 13.

James: We see clear Pathways to materially reduce or eliminate the hypothetical impact of crr 3. And let me say up front, our distribution policy and financial targets are unaffected

James: Before we go into detail, we need to remember that the Implement implementation of crr. R3 is a multi-year journey, including several transitional Arrangements that are subject to review and will mostly apply through 2032. And we are not planning franchise changing decisions today for an outcome. That is almost certain to change. The hypothetical hypothetical rwa inflation of 118 billion euros in 2333. Includes a 64 billion Euro impact from the output floor and 54 billion euros from the potential, expiry of the transitional Arrangements in 2033 based on an unmitigated balance sheet as of March, 31st 2024

5.

James: We expect the output floor impact to decline by at least 45 billion euros through a combination of low-cost mitigation matters measures and the full application of already final. Cr3 rules, not reflected in the March proforma.

James: We see this mitigation as virtually certain and without any meaningful cost.

James: We will address the remaining rwa impact of around 20 billion euros. Via additional mitigation matters, measures like business mixed reviews through the application of disciplined SBA driven. Decisions on balance sheet, optimization

James: As a result, the output floor will only become binding in 2030 at the earliest instead of 2028.

James: Even at this early stage, we are confident. We can reduce this impact by at least 15 billion euros through additional measures such as expanding, private rating agency coverage for unrated corporates and further potential additional balance sheet optimization actions

James: In addition considering developments in the US rule changes in Europe are expected to ensure European Banks. Can operate on a Level Playing Field and continue to support lending to European corporates and overall economic growth.

James: As an example around, 30 billion euros of the 54 billion euros, rwa, under the transitional rules relate to unrated corporates.

James: It is crucial for the Europe. You use Bank financing dependent corporate sector that Banks continue to provide this funding at appropriate Capital costs.

James: If transitional arrangements are extended or made permanent, there would be no additional rwa impact.

James: Let us now turn to the performance of our businesses, starting with the corporate bank on slide 15.

James: corporate bank revenues were essentially flat in the second quarter as interest hedging, higher average, deposits and growth in net commission and fee income have offset, ongoing marginalization

James: revenues were impacted by adverse FX movements, which were compensated by 1-off interest hedging gains from portfolio, optimization

We continue to make good progress. Further accelerating non-interest Revenue development with 6% growth in reported, net commission and fee income. And a particularly strong contribution from our institutional Client Services business.

James: For the third quarter, we expect revenues to be slightly lower and in line with the prior year reflecting the aforementioned FX headwind and a lower level of 1 off.

Adjusted for FX movements loans increased by 3 billion euros year on year and sequentially with the growth primarily coming from our trade finance and lending business.

James: Deposit volumes remain strong as volumes were up by 9 billion euros year on year and remained essentially flat sequentially.

James: Non-interest expenses were lower year-on-year, driven by a litigation provision release.

James: Provision for credit losses, declined to 22 million euros as stage 3. Provisions remained overall contained while stage 1 and 2 benefited from a model update.

James: This resulted in a post tax return on tangible, Equity of 17.6%, and a cost income ratio of 60%, both improving sequentially and year on year.

James: I'll now turn to the Investment Bank on slide 16.

James: Revenues for the second quarter increased 3% year-on-year, despite a significant FX headwind with strength in strength in Fick more than offsetting a decline in Ona revenues.

James: Fake revenues increased 11% primarily driven by strong performances in both financing and macro products.

James: Fake financing continued, its momentum with revenues again, higher than the prior year period. Reflecting an increase carry profile, following targeted balance sheet, deployment in line with our strategy, in addition to robust, robust fee income,

James: Excluding financing thick revenues increased versus the prior year period despite the extreme Market volatility seen in early April. As we continue to support our clients through these uncertain times with year-on-year activity, increasing across institutional corporate and our priority clients.

James: Moving to on a revenues were significantly lower. When compared to a strong prior year with a business impacted by market uncertainty, most notably in our areas of strength combined with the delay of some material transactions, into the second half of the year,

Debt origination saw the biggest impact with the leverage debt Capital markets Industry pool declining year-on-year. While the business was also selective in relation to new committed transactions in a volatile environment.

James: Advisory performance was robust with revenues increasing year-on-year. While the pipeline for the second half is encouraging.

James: Non-interest expenses were 5%, lower year-on-year, reflecting deduced litigation charges with adjusted costs essentially flat.

James: Provision for credit, losses was 259 million euros, significantly higher year-on-year with the increased driven by stage 1 and 2 Provisions. Particularly in chriari due to the aforementioned model updates as well as forward-looking indicator impacts while stage 3 impairments declined,

James: Let me now turn to Private Bank on slide 17.

James: In the private bank, discipline strategy, execution, drove 10% operating, leverage and a 56% increase in profit before tax.

James: Return on tangible Equity, grew both sequentially and year-on-year to 10.8%.

James: As net interest income grew by 5% year-on-year while net commission and fee income Rose by 1% year-on-year supported by investment revenues. Despite Market volatility

James: Sequential Revenue Trends, reflect seasonal. Investment activity. Typically concentrated early in the year,

James: Personal banking benefited from better deposit and investment products product revenues. Mainly in Germany leveraging successful, deposit campaigns, as well as the bank's leading advisory product offering

James: The growth was partially offset by lower lending revenues. Following the Strategic decision to reduce Capital intensive loans.

James: Wealth management and private banking revenues grew 2% year on year, driven by discretionary portfolio mandates. Despite FX headwinds and market value of volatility.

Good business. Momentum continued with the majority of net. Inflows of 6 billion euros in the quarter, coming from these businesses.

James: The private bank continued, the transformation of the purpose, personal banking business closing a further. 25 branches in the second quarter, bringing total code closures to 85 this year. Workforce was reduced by 700 in the first half continuing the trajectory in line with plan.

James: Transformation effects, more than offset inflationary pressure leading to a 5% reduction in adjusted costs.

James: On interest expenses declined by 8% reflecting lower restructuring. Charges with the cost income ratio. Improving by 7 percentage points to 69%

James: Provision for credit losses, benefited from updated loss given. Default model assumptions while underlying portfolio, performance remains stable.

James: Provisions in the prior year. Quarter benefited from a non-performing loan sale.

James: Turning to slide 18. My usual, reminder the asset management segment includes certain items that are not part of the DWS standard loan financials.

James: Profit before tax improved significantly. By 41%, from the prior year, period driven by higher revenues and resulting in an increase in return, on tangible Equity of 8, based percentage points to 26% for this quarter.

Revenues increased by 9% versus the prior year. Higher management, fees of 630 million euros driven by passive products reflected higher, average assets under management.

James: Performance fees, saw a significant increase from the prior year period mainly due to the recognition of fees from an infrastructure fund.

James: Non-interest expenses and adjusted costs were essentially flat resulting, in a decline in the cost income ratio to 60%.

James: Quarterly, net inflows of 8 billion euros. Represent the fourth consecutive quarter of positive, net flows, including further, a further, 3 billion euros into passive products.

James: Cash and Alternatives saw combined net inflows of 9 billion euros which more than offset 4 billion euros in outflows from active products and advisory services.

James: Assets under management remained above 1 trillion euros.

James: An increase from positive Market impact, and net inflows was offset by negative FX effects.

James: In the quarter DWS and its Partners received. Baffin approval to issue. Germany's first fully regulated Euro denominated stable coin and the division also extended its strategic partnership with defile AGI for another 10 years.

James: For further details, please have a look at dwss disclosure on their internal relations website.

James: Finally, let me turn to the group outlook on slide, 19.

James: We are on track to meet our full year 2025 targets and remain comfortable with our trajectory to deliver an rote above 10% and a cost income ratio of below 65%.

James: Are here today, performance supports our revenue and expense objectives.

James: Our Diversified and complimentary businesses are performing well and the strong revenues in the first half year. Put us on course to deliver our ambition for Revenue growth.

James: We remain committed to rigorous cost management while maintaining our focus on controls and Investments. As we continue to benefit from ongoing delivery of our cost efficiency initiatives.

As outlined the current FX rates, marginally impact our return and efficiency ratios. But this has been more than offset by a greater than expected reduction. In non-operating costs, which we expect to carry into the remainder of the year.

James: Our asset quality remains solid. And despite uncertainty from developments around CRA as well. As the macroeconomic environment, we currently anticipate a reduction in provisioning levels in the second half year.

James: Our strong Capital position and second quarter profit growth, provide a solid foundation as we head into 2026.

Exceeding of 14% cet1 ratio.

James: To date. We have announced 2.1 billion euros of capital distributions including the 1.3 billion Euro dividend paid in May and the 2/3 complete 750 million euro, share buyback announced in January and we await approval for our second share buyback.

James: In short, we remain comfortable with our Capital position and re reiterate our commitment to outperforming our 8 billion Euro distribution Target.

James: We are also steadfast in our commitment to further improve profitability and increasing shareholder returns Beyond 2025.

Anna: With that. Let me H hand back to you, Anna and we look forward to your questions.

Anna: Thank you, James.

Anna: And we're going to. Now begin the question after session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question, may I press Stein 1 on the telephone, you will hear a tone to confirm that you have entered the queue. If you wish to remove yourself from requesting queue, you may press star and 2

Anna: Question is on the phone are requested to disable the loudspeaker mode and eventually turn off the volume from the webcast. While asking a question, anyone who has a question may press star and 1 at this time,

Anna: 1 moment for the first question, please.

Speaker Change: And the first question comes from Flora. Pukah from barklay, please. Go ahead.

Yes, hello, thank you for taking my questions. Uh, I have 2 1 on the revenue Outlook 1 on the distribution policy. Uh, on revenues you've reiterated today the full year Target of 32 billion consensus, I think is a little bit below that level. So basically skeptical that you can get there,

Speaker Change: If I think of the moving Parts you just did in H1, just over 16 billion.

But that was helped by a seasonally strong q1. And then in Q2 the strong print you had in fig as well as CNO.

Speaker Change: Your guiding for a Slowdown, I think in Q3 in the corporate bank Revenue. So yeah, if you could elaborate on what gives you the confidence that you'll make that Target, and you expect H2 to basically be as strong as H1. And whether there is also already there in H2 a contribution from the German fiscal stimulus, or if it's something that is more helping from 26 onwards,

The second question is on the distribution policy, I just want to make sure I understand correctly. Um so the idea is that you have a payout ratio of 50%. Uh but then if you close the year and with the ct1 ratio that is above 14%, then you would consider Distributing that excess even if it would take the

Speaker Change: Pay out above 50. So just checking that the payout ratio is not abiding constraint. So could be seen as a minimum kind of but also effectively that you're telling us that the distribution threshold is now 14%. Ct1 thank you.

Speaker Change: Thank you, Flora. Um, let let me take the first question on, on revenues and and also the German stimulus program. Um, so first of all, um,

Speaker Change: I'm really happy with the first, uh, half of revenues, uh, because, uh, in particular in Q2, um, that was a complex quarter. Um, we have seen in particular in the OA business, a softer, Q2 than we thought, um, and initially expected. Um, but the good thing about that is, um, that uh, actually, these are delayed deals and, um, a good part of that is actually moving into Q3 and into Q4. And, and I think you have seen it from the prepared remarks from, uh, James that actually, we started pretty well in, in July 1 of the reasons, is also that, uh, oh, and a actually had a very good start in, in July, not only, uh, not only fixed. So also having that in mind, um, I'm really happy with, uh, um, q1 and Q2 in aggregate, it shows that actually the franchise. And the business model is working. And even if you have slightly softer revenues in 1 sub segment, the bank is strong enough and robust enough to compensate

Dated, uh, with a good outperformance in other parts. Now, why am I confident that we will achieve our 32 billion, um, also in uh, with the Q 3 and Q4

Speaker Change: Close and I can't see that stopping in Q3 and Q4, if I look at our financing pipeline, so thick uh, will will remain strong. I just told you about on a um I'm absolutely convinced that on a will be stronger in H2 than in H1. And again we we see that um some of the delayed transactions are now coming through and already were booked in in in July. Um you're right corporate bank uh slightly weaker potentially in Q3. But we are not talking, um, actually big numbers here but this will be not only be uh, fully compensated, but more than compensated by stronger asset management, and the private bank. So if I think about asset management and the private bank, what I see in Q3 and Q4 uh, also compared with q1 and Q2 clearly better and more than of of setting.

Speaker Change: The potential software, uh, quarter in in, in the corporate bank. So if I put this all together, um, to be honest I I don't see, I don't see, uh, actually the concern that we are not, um, achieving our 32 billion.

Speaker Change: Now, on top of that is coming something, which you just raised in your second part of your question, um, IE for the first question and that is the stimulus program in in Germany. Um, I think the bulk of that, um, to be honest, we will see then the impact in 26. Um, very bullish on 26, actually, uh, we as Deutsche Bank changed our outlook for the GDP group.

Speaker Change: Growth for Germany, uh, to 2% growth. In 26 iie, we upsized it with all that what is coming, but you can see a

Speaker Change: sentiment change in Germany. The level of discussions, we have with our corporate clients, whether it's on financing, whether it's actually on investment plans is a completely different 1 than before.

Speaker Change: I think we have seen from this government. The first wave of reforms in particular on this taxation side and on the energy side, there will be a second round of reforms in the second half of the Year. And that also all kind of, um, supported this made for Germany initiative, which we, uh, which we announced on Monday. And to be honest, after the Monday, we got a number of additional companies actually joining this initiative, with more Investments. And these Investments Flora at the end of the day, need to be financed. And and, and, and there is a huge opportunity. Now, this kind of

Speaker Change: potential upside for the second half of 2025 is in no numbers. I just quoted for you because that was the base case without that. Now again most of that will come in 2026 and and and we will show you then later in the year, when we come out with our targets for 26, 27/28 with a detailed layout of what that means, but clearly, it's Tailwind last but not least, um,

Speaker Change: I really do believe, it's not only the corporate bank, which will benefit of that and the Investment Bank. But I'm absolutely convinced that Germany will address in the 1 or the other form, um, sort of say also, our pension system. And I always said, never underestimate what that means for our retail business. We have 19 million clients and obviously, we will hopefully go into a more of a capital covered pension system. That is our chance. And that is why I'm so positive that also over 25 and Beyond. We have real chances to grow there and therefore from a business mix, no concern on the 32 billion, um, really, really good pipeline. Um, very good momentum in the bank, but even more upside, from all that, what is happening in Germany for 26 and Beyond.

Speaker Change: in Florida is James just to add 1 thing to to Christian's point on revenues and tie it back to both our Outlook statements and the consensus FX as we've talked about since our fourth quarter results plays a a, you know, a role in in in that

James: uh, if you simply applied, the the current FX rates to the second half,

James: Um, you know, the implied number is a, is revenue pressure of a little less than than 400 million for the full year. So that would translate into something a little bit higher than 31.6 billion.

James: That we had for the year um as it's as it's influenced by FX but but in principle the the the ingredients Christian just gave you would would potentially represent an outperformance. If we if all we did was repeat the the second quarter in in each of the next 2 quarters.

James: Just going to distribution policy or second question.

James: A short answer is, is that's correct. Um, we, you know, in the, in the adjustment we made to the distribution policy and announced at at the AGM, we essentially, I'll call it have the flexibility to distribute 50% of the prior years. Net income. Um, that will, of course, more than cover the dividend and a significant buyback next year.

James: Um, amounts above. 50% would need to be in a sense funded from excess Capital, but the payout ratio would not be an upper limit an up, a cap, rather the call it the 14% Mark, you know, Threshold at which we, we Define excess Capital. Um, and hence, you know, we we in a sense we'd like, for the market to think of that 14. I think most of the focus is this idea. That's 14, is somehow a floor. Um it's it's also a cap and and and you would expect us to distribute above the 50%. As long as capital is is sustainably above the 14%.

James: Thank you.

Speaker Change: Then the next question. Thank you for

Speaker Change: The next question comes from Nicholas, payin from Capital. Please go ahead.

Nicholas Payin: Yes morning, I have 2 question, please. Uh, the first 1 on the output floor, and the output for mitigation measures. Uh, could you clarify how the final application of ever TB? The capital relief for the output floor, please? And also, uh, as a measure seems to be a very large part of your mitigation action. So if you could provide maybe some colors on what actions, you can actually take within this framework to, to offset the impact. Um, and then the second question would be on your CLP Outlook um with your guidance of H2, Provisions being actually lower than H1, Provisions. What does that mean for the full year? Guidance for CLP and how does the steel elevated CRA? Provisions fit into that guidance. Thank you very much.

Speaker Change: Thank you Nicola. Um, I I'm not sure I caught all of the first question uh you know acoustically but but let me go after it.

Speaker Change: Let me start with.

Speaker Change: The implication that we want to leave you with on the output floor. Mitigation path. Is that for your modeling purposes? Zero is a good number to put into the to the forward.

um, on the basis that we are quite confident, we've moved out the point in time, at which it becomes biting Point, 1

Speaker Change: Point 2 on the what, we call Phase 1, we we're quite confident. We'll bring that number down significantly, potentially all the way to zero.

Speaker Change: Then we work on the mitigation of what we call Phase 2, which is which is how to address the impact of the transitional Arrangements potentially expiring.

Uh and there, it's very early days on on what we see, but we've already identified 15 billion and we'll work from there. Um, and so we're we're quite confident. The only question is over time, as you get deeper into the transitional Arrangement will will costs and, and changes to the balance sheet, start to really occur. But the starting point is is a high degree of confidence and and zero is a good number to to operate with for now.

Um you asked about frtb and how it plays into the output floor. It's a good question because as you've seen the the mix 1 of the reasons that radio synchrony impacted is the mix of of capital markets businesses within our overall balance sheet structure and their 1 of the points. We want to leave you with is mitigation of the frtb related impacts is actually relatively straightforward and and and and very low cost. Um but now you would not begin to apply those mitigation actions until the the full frtb or the

Speaker Change: Final version of frtb is, in fact in force. Um, so you you you should not and would not, um, simultaneously essentially head to hedge to a standardized and and an IRB approach while as long as the standardized doesn't doesn't bite. Uh, and hence, you know, that's that still lies somewhere in the future. But is part of the reason we have confidence. It's the if you like the biggest part of the of the of phase 1 in this journey,

Speaker Change: Commercial real estate. Um and so so the rest of the picture as we see, it is actually reasonably benign. Um, but we're a commercial real estate which year to date is about 430 million. Clearly is surpassed what we what we expected.

Speaker Change: What does it leave us for guidance for the full year? Well, um, you know, in round numbers, our original guidance would have suggested at the high-end 1.6 billion. Which would mean an additional 700 million in the second half?

I wouldn't say that that's out of the realm of the possible, but clearly much more challenging, um, especially if there's continued pressure on on Commercial Real Estate, but if you kind of move the number in the second, half up from there, you know, the, the likely and, and set as a constraint, this idea that it should be in the second half better than the first, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're you're traveling in a Range that's actually pretty consistent with the with the existing consensus number. Um, so if you throw out that number is about 1.7 billion, probably a good number to put in the models. For now, again, it's, it's quite path dependent on what happens with commercial real estate. Um, but but that's been the 1 really, the 1 area of pressure that we've seen in, uh, in the CLP landscape. Where most of the other things that we talked about with you last year, have have been on the what we call normalization path that we talked about.

Speaker Change: Thank you very much.

Speaker Change: And the next question comes from Anka rangan from RBC. Please go ahead.

Anka rangan: Uh, yeah, thank you very much, uh, for taking my questions. Um, the first is on, um, the stress test.

Anka rangan: And um, the consideration of the output flows. Um, I mean looking at previous stress tests, um, that could potentially mean your ratio comes out. Quite low on, on a fully loaded basis.

Anka rangan: are you concerned, um, that the low ratio could impact, um, The Regulators view of um, your MBA, or Capital guidance, and could impact your Capital distributions

Anka rangan: Or are they more looking at the draw down over the stress test period.

Anka rangan: And and are you concerned like if the ratio comes out really low how credit markets might react?

Anka rangan: And then, secondly on on costs, um, yeah, adjust the costs for 5 billion and Q2, um, I guess help by, um, FX effects is, is the 5 billion then be adjusted cost, run rate, we should think about, um, for the second half.

Anka rangan: Taking the costs, uh, for the full year, closer to 20.1 basis on a 21 20.1% and, and I guess that's the number that will come with the 31.6 billion revenues. Um, you mentioned earlier, but could the 20.1 billion also be higher, if the revenues move closer to the 32 billion, thank you very much.

Anka rangan: Thank you an appreciate the questions. So, listen on the stress test. Um, short answer is no. Um, we look, we would start with the point that we we actually don't think it's

Anka rangan: Relevant really to to have to disclose the stress test results on a fully phased in basis.

Anka rangan: I mean, to begin with the those rules, do not apply during the stress test window that we're talking about, um, and and they're well outside. So, you know, a consequently, we don't think, you know, supervisors will be focused on the fully phased in results to your point correctly. I it, they they will look at the draw down on that basis, which might be interesting as it happens. Our drought draw down is in fact, lower on the fully phased, in numbers than it is on the, on the, uh, but by virtue of of starting with a higher denominator if you like so. So in that sense it's, it's ironically a positive. Um, but we think, you know emphatically, it's not appropriate to look at those numbers. Uh, credit markets. Look, there's simply going to be a communication challenge associated with, with numbers that people aren't used to looking looking at, uh, again, in they to us. They are irrelevant given that they're hypothetical. Well,

Anka rangan: In the future and and also entirely unmitigated given it only really references, the starting point, which is a December 31st starting point.

Anka rangan: Um so so that's where we are. I I think it's important for people to be aware that that disclosure is is is ahead on what otherwise for us would be stress test outcomes that that we would expect not to not to do gun, jump on the disclosure but will reflect the improvements in the company's risk profile and profitability over the past several years. And and so we we would certainly hope that that the market would focus on on those aspects of the results.

Anka rangan: FX is built in at 1:15 on the the the dollar uh, Euro rate. It's a little obviously higher now Euro. So so that that would have an effect up and down as the rate changes. But but it's certainly Our intention to consistent with our guidance, at the beginning of the year to, to run, you know, more or less flat to that level. As the as the the year goes by,

Anka rangan: okay, I

Anka rangan: I think you had on the stress test.

Anka rangan: Part of the question was also, whether that limits Us in terms of all, whether the regulator has an issue, then with share BuyBacks, or distribution know, um, to be honest, I I, I think the transparency, which we are providing, uh, with regard to our Capital plan. Obviously, not only for 25, but also for the outer years. I think we have reached the level, which is in my view appreciated. Um, we are in in, uh, really good discussions with with the regulator. So I'm, I'm not expecting that, and from all, I can see how we have handled the capital in the past. Also, the the discussions we we have, uh, uh, during the year 2025, I think, uh, they're well, understood on which path we are. So, um, I'm not concerned about that at all.

Anka rangan: Thank you.

Richard: The next question comes from Richard, from Bank of America, please go ahead.

Speaker Change: Hi, good morning, everyone. Just 2 question from my side. I just follow up on the growth aspect. Um, thanks for the detail answer, uh, you gave earlier, um, but the, you know, there's a lot of skepticism about the execution risk of this fiscal, uh, package or stimulus. Um, and need a lot of Plumbing to do before we can see it's filtering through the really economy. Can you tell us? Uh, actually and give us some concrete, maybe measures or actions already. You see in the ground of how the German uh, government is uh, effectively working on being um you know, with no no no kind of uh uh loss on this on this pending to non-growth measures. Um and if you maybe uh I think something will be for the CMD as you alluded to but um what would be for you in this context for the multiplier to GDP in terms of growth that a bank like ditch a bank can can deliver, which is still ban European with some exposure to to Germany. And my second question is on Capital uh very interesting. Answer about the 14% and very clear at James. Thank you.

Speaker Change: But um, you know, I mean, uh, now that you say we can put in our models zero impact from the pillar tree new disclosure, um, and then surprised of your increase of ct1 to 13 and a half 14, which is a big number in European context at the moment. Um, so now that mean that really 14 is a hard, uh, hard kind of stop number and then you would do extra distribution, intra-year to stay at this level or you can actually, uh, overshoot it. Uh, and then go back, uh, later on. I mean, in short, can we still have more buyback than the 1? You've already applied to uh, or these upside to what consensus has for the current, uh, Top-Up buyback. Thank you.

Thank you, Terry. Um, let let me start with your first question, um, on sort of say, execution risk, uh, on the German fiscal stimulus. Um,

Speaker Change: First of all, it is. It is a

Speaker Change: It is a real mindset change when you talk to the German government these days.

Speaker Change: And, and, and I can tell you, also, from the discussions we had this Monday in the, uh, with the chancellor. By the way, component, by the Finance Minister and the minister of economic affairs,

Speaker Change: Gross and competitiveness is at the core of the agenda, what they are doing. And, and, and that is key. Because obviously this goes also into the sentiment of the private sector and and only because of that, it is possible to launch an initiative uh like with it. Now on the plummeting and and execution risk of the fiscal measures. Um, I I think we need to a little bit uh differentiate on the 1 hand defense starts as we speak and and you have seen all our announcements how we have fostered, actually, our defense uh financing uh, capabilities and capacities over the last 3 or 4 months. I think Fabricio has done a tremendous job in Germany but also in Europe, actually to further, uh, increase our resources, whether its capital resources, whether it's people. Um, in order to, to make sure we are organized, we are set up in order to actually respond to, um, the asks which we which we are

Speaker Change: Coming in on the infrastructure side. Um, you have seen that actually, um, the budget has been uh, uh proposed to to the parliament, um, before the summer break. Um, the 25 budget 26 is coming. Uh, soon after that, it's actually something for September and I think in the second half, you will see that the 500 billion of infrastructure fund, um, which has been created, which actually looks into different, sub-segments, housing is 1. Um, uh, digitalization. Uh, uh, and Technology uh is is is second 1. Key infrastructure is is the third 1. That is all launched in in the, in the second half. And and also there you can see that the preparation uh, is is well underway, but I would say the main effect of that is coming in 26. Now, there is the 1 or the other order already coming in, but you can also see that it has a positive impact. Actually, on the corporates, who are now rethinking their investments into Germany,

And saying, well we want to be prepared for the day that it's coming in and therefore you can see um, a much more engagement level on the German corporate side. And, and also from a again from a sentiment point of view uh much better much better results over the last. Um, I would say 2 to 3 months when the corporate owners are asked what's going on in Germany, the response rates is is a much better 1.

Speaker Change: and therefore, I do believe that actually, we will already see a slight uptick in the second half in particular driven by defense on the infrastructure side, the 500 billion, the main impact is coming in 2026 and that's what we will show you then when we have uh uh the investor or Capital markets day um later in the year how it actually impacts the 1 or the other business

Speaker Change: Terk. I I'll go to your second.

Speaker Change: Question. But actually 1, 1 thing, just to add to a question. You said about the multiplier because you reminded me of, of my early days as a bank analysts, uh, um, the on the private side for what it's worth. Um, we used to talk in the in the US about the multiplier of Bank sector growth, being something like 1.3 times the the GDP growth. Um and I I haven't thought of it in those terms but it's probably it's I think that's what's behind your question. I think that Germany and particularly DB have a chance to meaningfully outperform that type of multiplier because the, the changes that we're talking about here is really about redeploying savings into investment activities. So, um, and it it's sort of a, it's a corollary of the of this idea that that European Capital being tied up in Bank, deposits is under, you know, under leveraging those deposits.

Speaker Change: Do you think that the banking sector, particularly, Deutsche Bank, with our business model on asset Gathering Asset Management advice underwriting? You know, is Shifting, would shift not just our deposits but but the banking sectors trillions of Euros of deposits from relatively unproductive uses in. In, in Bank, deposits into the capital markets investment growth Innovation. I think the multiplier you're talking about could be significantly higher than than it. It was in in those days, um, 30 years ago, um, just talking to Capital and the and the range look, let me be really clear. Um, firstly, we decided to change the language around the capitol policy because it was clear that our earlier language was sort of out of date of of 200 basis. Points above MDA, We Grown past that and we felt it needed to be updated.

Speaker Change: Second thing the market and sometimes credit investors will tend to focus on distance to MDA and and we've recognized that the bank has operated at at a bit of a, of a thinner, buffer than than uh, than some of our peers and so shifting as we've done, we think is addressing that and doing so, in a really positive way in line with, with where we, in fact are capitalized today.

Speaker Change: Um, we've made the point that we think MDA is too high and over time for a variety of different reasons, should come down and and therefore, increasingly, I think our our buffered MDA will look to the world like a source of strength and hence, we think the, the, the initial reaction perhaps, um, underplayed that, that element of it.

Speaker Change: Distributions. Hopefully with more freedom and predictability. Um, as to the outcomes.

Speaker Change: The last thing just to note is and I think it's also confused that investors a little bit. There is a timing lag, um, attached to this. So as you as you may know, the the ecb's sort of process about a 4-month process, they're looking actually to, to potentially shorten it, um, to 3 months. But it means that that, you know, the the ratio on any given quarter end is a bit of a lagging indicator, right of of what what management was looking at, um, as a spot level. When, when we we put in an application, um, uh, uh, it's also why we talk about sustainably that our applications for BuyBacks are, of course, A forward-looking View. And and so, you know, naturally the supervisors would say, Well, it can't just be a moment in time at which you're above, but but hopefully, sustainable. But with a company that's that's growing earnings and and and organic Capital Generation by and large that should be, um, uh, you know, something that that that moves over time up from the spot.

Speaker Change: So I hope that's helpful. Also in explaining some of the timing lags that that you see in the in announcement versus spot ratio.

Speaker Change: Thank you very clear.

Speaker Change: And the next question comes from Kian, Abu Hussein from JP Morgan. Please go ahead.

Speaker Change: Yes, thank you very much. Uh, for taking my questions. I mean, if I met, uh, first make a comment, um, good results. But I'm, I'm, I'm I'm questioning a bit why we discussing dollar impacts of 400 million on revenues, which is, uh, roughly 1% of total revenues. Um,

Speaker Change: I hope, I hope Christian, you can get the truths to make up for the 32 billion and and generate extra revenues as such uh just as a comment. Um but coming to my questions, um,

Uh, first of all, we've talked a lot about top-down impact, uh, Germany spending on your uh future potential revenues, what I'm interested in this market, shares. So what are you doing on private bank market shares? What are you doing on corporate bank market? Shares not exactly clear if you're gaining, maybe you losing market share, but I want to try to understand that on the deposit lending side. Um, secondly, on cost, um, you almost exhausted your cost program and I was wondering what areas of costs, we should think of where you could do further improvements, um, in order on a Google space as I guess, um, which we should think about, could further improve on the growth space at least your cost uh,

Speaker Change: Impact. Thanks.

Speaker Change: James, I'll quickly cover the first item and then then Christian will talk about market shares and and cost we agree. You know, we don't want to focus too much but what we we simply are doing is giving you the mark to Market. Um so that people, you know, can can essentially have an honest Reckoning at the end of the year as to what we delivered versus what we promised. Um, but I agree, it doesn't it, it shouldn't. Um, you know, overshadow, what I think is good momentum in the businesses and delivery against our, our Revenue objectives.

Speaker Change: well, Ken, um

Speaker Change: To your initial comment. I think, you know, me, that, that I would put every everything into that, we deliver the 32 or even more. So, uh, rest assured that that, this is under daily watch on, uh, market share. Um, look

Speaker Change: I think we have a

Speaker Change: we we we have a first class position to grow market share in particular in the corporate bank and private bank from here. Why? Because we have done the transformation, we have done the restructuring, we have done in particular in the private bank, the heavy lifting of the it integration of postbank and Deutsche Bank, you can see, actually nobody actually thought that, uh, we were able to, to, to grow the profitability in the private bank. We are by far, not there, where we want to be, but you can see the steady progress and the steady progress is not only coming by taking costs out which I'm very happy about and and this will continue. But also

Speaker Change: December there with uh an even nicer client experience for our retail clients.

Speaker Change: And actually, with that, what I try to explain before that, I do believe over the next years in particular, we will see a shift also, what, um, James just said from deposits into investment products because the Germans are understanding that, the retirement, uh, uh, structure needs to be different from that, what we had before.

Speaker Change: This is actually the best foundation we have in Deutsche Bank. We can grow from here and and I'm sure we will see actually growing market share in the private bank.

Speaker Change: I would say the same because uh in particular when it comes now to the financing piece in particular if it comes to moving um and and uh uh providing international investors access to Germany. We are exceptionally well, positioned Fabricio on purpose, positioned uh in the corporate bank and in the Investment Bank areas, like defense, infrastructure financing. He pushed more Capital into it. He increased the resourcing for this group. So, also, in this regard, I I would say we are prone actually to grow market, share, um, in our home business and all I can see. And and, and also from, you know, the number of clients interacting with, in the Home Market, this clearly goes uh um, into the right direction on the cost side.

To be honest, we took your comments to heart. Um, and and um, I'm really happy to see that. Um, discipline is even better than before and that, um, I think we have delivered now quarter for quarter. Uh, a cost number, which is, uh, not only in line with expectation, but stronger than, uh, consensus. No doubt that this, uh, is continuing the only thing where I would say, um, I slightly disagree with your comment is on exhausting. Um, the programs we are now working obviously on the programs Beyond 2025. Um, we will achieve the 100% of the 2 and a half billion by year end. Um, that is that is clear. We are now already at 90%. The other thing will come in over the next 6 months.

Speaker Change: And a good part of the work we are doing in the management board is now to define the past to 2028. And if I think about what we are thinking in terms of front to back processing for our main capabilities, whether it's trading whether its investment business, whether its lending business, how Marcos chromic is now defining the credit process in a much more digital way, and connect the front office with the back office. If you think about what savings, we still can get in, in the re-engineering of the Fick business under Ram. Neach working with the it,

To be honest, there is more to come and therefore, Deutsche Bank 3.0 is on the 1 hand, the SVA method and capital allocation on the other hand a better and more efficient Target operating model, which actually encapsulates, a lot of cost Savings in the future. So therefore, I'm I'm really bullish why? Uh, we can achieve, um, a higher profitability than 10% after 2025.

Thank you. The next question comes from Julia or miyota from MOG standing. Please go ahead.

Speaker Change: Hi, good morning. Thank you for taking my questions.

Speaker Change: So, the first 1 Christian, um, you often talk about leveraging, the, um, fiscal stimulus with the private Investments and I think you mentioned working with kfw and, uh, EAB on this is your view still that, Um, this can be levered 5 times and how would this work? When would we see this money really being mobilized? Um, and I guess, what's in it for Deutsche Bank? I guess you make a fee on the ID side, but I would be curious for any comments there. Um, and then, secondly, so you hear. I hear you very positive on, uh, the mobilization of savings. Um, but what incentive do you think, uh, welcome or will this be left? Just to, you know, Germans realizing that the state patient is not enough. So they need to invest

Speaker Change: Do you expect like a tax incentive or or what do you expect? Um, here. Thank you.

Speaker Change: With CFW uh and others with regard to infrastructure funding uh with regard to uh how can we actually um also make sure that other investors private investors are leveraging the programs which have been set up under the under the fiscal stimulus program and and how can we link these private investors with the fiscal stimulus. And and and look, this is our role that we that we are actually trying to connect these private investors uh, with our uh, public spending which we have in Germany. And on top of that, we are obviously then trying to leverage that um with uh um uh with further debt, uh, from our side, uh, with other, um, with other institutions. So I said, um, last week, if we are doing it the right way, in Germany, this 500 billion infrastructure. Stimulus program can actually be turned into an overall

Speaker Change: uh, program, which is 4 5 times as high as the as the 500 billion because we can link it with private investor and obviously, uh, Bank debt, um, in a way that um, you know, the 500 billion are also used as first loss piece guarantees public private Partnerships and and these discussions are running as we speak and and and again, the first piece you have seen in a life scenario with with, uh, aib

Speaker Change: Um, on on the, uh, pension on the pension. Um, I I think it is

Speaker Change: There are there are different incentives or different levels of discussions taking place. Number 1 you have this and which has been approved by Germany is this early investment program. Targeted at Young savers

Speaker Change: Now, of course, 10 a month, um, for, um, average child I think which is above and now, I need to be careful that I'm not saying the wrong thing, 6 years or 7 years old, I think it starts with that does not mean the world, but actually it changes a lot. The mindset of the people that this money is designed to go into a kind of a capital covered pension program, um, and, and it will mean, actually that obviously Banks like us and, and others are trying to capture this opportunity and say, okay, what else can we do? It's not only the 10 euro, what else can we do with your deposits, uh, which you have with us, I mean, we need to be all conscious that for the time being Europe is exporting. 300 billion of deposits every year to the United States. So, we, we need to make sure that with these kind of changes. We actually try to capture more of that for us in order to to finance the growth and the Investments which are which are needed

Speaker Change: Secondly, um, I I do believe that with the whole discussion we have also the financial literacy and and the education of people will take a different momentum and and people will be aware that there is far more to get. Um, if if if actually you think differently about your own pension program um, than before certainly digitalization and the way you are offering it to, your clients will pay uh will play uh um uh or will make a a big difference going forward. 1 of the items Claudio is so much pressing on and pushing for is actually a digital offering in terms of investment programs for retail clients to make it easy for them and far more simpler to actually opt for a certain product. So in this regard our investments into technology uh will pay off

Speaker Change: And lastly, um, now not yet decided, but from all that I hear in Berlin.

Speaker Change: The the the the the new early investment program was just the start. I'm absolutely confident that over the second half of 2025. And then also in 26, there will be at least a discussion about a broader reform of the pension program and that again will deepen our domestic Capital markets in a significant way. Well, and if there is a capital markets Bank in Germany which will obviously benefit from this, it's us. And in those discussions, we are in

Speaker Change: Thanks.

Stephan Starman: And the next question comes from, Stephan Starman from autonomous. Please go ahead.

Stephan Starman: Um, how do you see your own competitive situation? In particular, in capital, markets affected by that.

um and regarding the number question, um you had another very positive contribution from from allegation and timing differences in CNO

Stephan Starman: Um, and you do mention that there might know that that to some degree represents a reversal of previous negative, um, numbers. But if I look back all the time, all the way to 2018, you have generated cumulative benefits of 2 and a half billion during that period. Um should we assume that that 2.5 billion also reverses over time and um if so what how we think about the timing and and magnitudes of of that and the drivers, thank you.

Speaker Change: Thank you, Stefan. Let me take the, the, the, the first question. Um,

Speaker Change: Look, um, of course we are, we are observing closely. Um, the

Speaker Change: Sort of the question of lever playing field, um, globally. And and to be honest, we we also address it um, with the relevant authorities in Europe,

And I have to tell you that, um, I'm, I'm actually positively surprised about the level of discussions. We have that is different to last year, and the years before there was an openness to discuss that. Um, I'm, I'm not saying that, uh, uh, we we will get exactly there where potentially the US is, is going to. I, I don't know that, but first of all, it's a good signal that there is an openness to discuss. I also do believe the working group which has been imposed, um, and set up within the ECB, um, is is the right step to look into it. And, and therefore, also there, you can see that competitiveness is playing a role number 2. I think we have shown over the last, uh, years now that despite the strength of the US Banks and no doubt, we have built out market share, um, we have built out market share there, where we can be competitive, uh, where we have a good offering.

Speaker Change: And more importantly, with where the world is going. And and with the geopolitical uncertainty, we can see that Trend that actually a lot of clients around the world. Not only in Europe, but also in Asia in the Middle East and also in the US would like to have a European alternative. And that's what we are seeing in the market share of of our offerings, whether it is uh um, in the uh, uh, financing business, whether it's in the trading business, whether it's in those areas of the corporate bank, uh, where we

Speaker Change: Really want to play. We can see that it's very important in in this world for clients that they are having at least the alternative and when it comes to Global corporate banking, when it comes to Global Investment Banking, to be honest, there are not so many European Alternatives left and therefore I can see that what you are referring to, but a we have good and fair discussions with the European authorities and I see some movement and secondly, um, I do believe that the clients actually always want to have an alternative and we want to be that alternative that is exactly our strategy.

Speaker Change: Stefan on the um the corporate and other evaluation and timing differences. So there's a number of things that that feed that line.

Speaker Change: But in principle,

Speaker Change: um, what you're seeing is is a pull to par of the losses that in derivatives um, on the the hedging of the balance sheet that took place really in 22 and 23. As you saw the, the interest rate cycle play out, um, and and those those derivatives losses pulled to par based on the duration, the maturity of the underlying risk assets, they were hedging. Um, some of them are shorter in nature, some of them longer in nature. Um, and so you're seeing, um, a combination of of pulled the par of

Speaker Change: Relatively shorter dated.

Speaker Change: Derivative losses.

Speaker Change: Um, overlaying on top of a longer-term, pull to par on the longer term hedging. Um, uh, that was produced by by the the interest rate cycle.

Speaker Change: Um, so the short version of that is there is still a lot of pulled apart to come over time, but the near-term sort of, if you like, um, sort of excess benefit is is, you know, closer to to washing out.

Speaker Change: Interest rate, differential between euros and dollars. So, so some of if you look at on a cumulative basis, um, you know, goes beyond if you like the, the, the swings of the, of the derivative portfolio or the the risk hedging that we do. Um uh and hence, you know, that it it is

Speaker Change: I don't want to say structurally positive. It's it's a little bit structurally positive, but but can can swing around neutral, you know, On Any Given quarter.

And thank you. Next question, comes from Chris Haram from Goldman Sachs, please go ahead.

Chris Haram: Yeah, good morning, everyone. Just 2 quick ones from me um, on on a so announced m&a volumes are up around 30% on a global basis. It's up nearly 20% in Europe but Germany is nearly plus 60%. So if we couple that with the fiscal backdrop, we're sort of into Uncharted Territory. So I just wondered how we should think about. Oh, and a momentum heading into H2 and into next year, particularly in the context of the comments you made earlier on the strength of your franchise in Germany in particular.

Speaker Change: And then second on clps you referenced earlier. Some further pressure on us commercial real estate, especially on the west coast just looking at the CLP number on slide 31. Um, it picked up quite a bit Q on Q. So how should we think about that for the balance of the year? I know you mentioned being in an advanced stage of the down cycle but I guess just sort of how advanced thanks.

Speaker Change: Yeah. Chris it's your your point about m&a and Germany is a great example of of an answer to T's question. You know, the potential why the multipliers potentially much much higher than what you'd expect in terms of call it Revenue generation from economic growth and and the fiscal expansion. Um, now I think the environment is certainly good and

Speaker Change: But the timing of of what, you know, when transactions happen at what pace, what size, you know, uh, you know, is, is, is still outstanding. I will say that the client dialogue is, is very strong. Um, we've talked a little bit externally about the defense industry but it what goes well beyond that. Um, in terms of of of potential activity uh and then the support for of of investors uh domestic and foreign um for for potential sort of strategies. So short version is we we do think uh, you know, there's a real opportunity and it's a market in that is our home market and 1 that we're we're a clear number 1 in. Uh, and and hence, we we we stand to to benefit disproportionately from that.

On the clps in commercial real estate. And what we show you in the appendix is the US um, CRA portfolio. Um, 1 thing to, to Just note. And which is why we broke out the stages 1 and 2 numbers. This quarter for you is the model adjustment that we talk about um in our prepared remarks um played out in the in the stage 2.

Speaker Change: Provision uh, in this quarter. So so the fact that the quarter was as High, um, uh, really, a significant amount was reflected by the the lgd setting, um, that that became more conservative in stage stage 2 and, and impacted the CRA. Um, it sits on top of a stage 3 number, which is higher than we anticipated. Um, and as we say, is concentrated in the west coast. Um, uh and it has to do with again valuation, uh, on

Speaker Change: Already defaulted position, so it the valuations from here, will depend on leasing activity. And, and, and, and comparables in the marketplace and, and also sponsor Behavior. But, but I want to focus you on the stage 1 and 2, which, which was a, a, an outsized factor in this quarter in CRA given the the lgd model setting. It's a change.

Speaker Change: Cool. Thanks very much.

Chris Haram: Thank you, Chris.

Speaker Change: Next question comes from mate. Name is from UBS, please go ahead.

Yes, thank you very much, uh, 2 questions please. Uh, the first 1 is a, on the change, uh, in Revenue as luck, uh, for full year 25 like, uh, you've done great it just a bit, your Revenue Outlook, um, in a corporate bank and upgraded, um, uh, fixed income.

Speaker Change: Um in the ID. Uh could you give us a bit more color on what drove that downgrade for the corporate bank and what sort of um Revenue mix shift if any should we expect you know, from from next year onwards um in the business

Speaker Change: With an opportunity specifically for the corporate bank. If, if I listen to you Christian clear, There's an opportunity to to leverage out the infrastructure, um, fund and bank that can kind of play a role in that. But obviously, you have quite a few ways, uh, to to provide Capital, uh, be its outright Bank, lending be it. Um, securitizations. I would be interested to hear your thoughts. How you intend to, to tackle that from a capital consumption perspective. Thank you.

Speaker Change: Thanks Monte. Um, yeah, interesting questions and I'm going to see you. The the entirety of the question was focused on the corporate bank but but correct me if if otherwise

Speaker Change: So the downgrade reflected, I mean FX um, to begin with but then also really net interest income. Um, I'll call it deterioration relative to our earlier expectations. Um, we are seeing a little bit more deposit margin pressure um and a little bit less loan growth than we'd we'd expected for the year.

Speaker Change: Um, and so

Speaker Change: All in all that. That's that's produced some some pressure on on on CB and the net interest income line what's encouraging on. On the other hand is that fee and commission income was being quite strong. So you saw grew 6% year on year um and and as we've talked about we're investing to to continue that that Trend and investing behind fee and commission. Income generating um revenue streams in in the corporate bank. How will it shift going forward? We're actually encouraged about

Speaker Change: About what the trends look like, in, on the call of the balance sheet side of the of the corporate bank. Uh, and, and what that therefore means in terms of Tailwind going into the end of the year and into 26, um, deposit volumes have been okay? Um, and and there's been growth there. Actually growth on a Topline basis. That's offsetting some other Trends within the book that, um, including some runoff of, of concentrated uh, deposit positions. Um, so the the pictures is, is actually a little better than it looks like on the surface.

Speaker Change: And then the question is will longer growth come back and that begins to feed into your question on fiscal and how that will change the composition of the of the business. We did have loan growth. Again, FX obscures a little bit by about 3 billion in the quarter, which to us, is, is a good start. We've been waiting to see, um, you know, the proverbial green shoots there. Um, but but it, there's no question as Christian said earlier, but that the fiscal stimulus is going to um, uh, generate loan growth going forward.

Um, and hence I think that nii um but you know momentum, you know, is likely to pick up towards the end of the year and into 26.

Speaker Change: That then feeds to your follow-on question, which is capital consumption, clearly that will go up to some degree at in the business we think at the strong ratio that we that we have, we're we're well equipped, um, to support clients in, in, in that growth scenario.

Speaker Change: Um, but as you also say, um, given the focus we have on the efficiency of the balance sheet and SVA performance of the business. We do think that the way the markets changed um especially around private credit and and and the securitization um opportunities also potential changes to the securitization rules in Europe that the the scope of of of our ability to accelerate the velocity of the balance sheet there, um, is going to be significant. So short version is, we we don't see ourselves as being in any way, Capital constrained in the ability to support that growth, uh, and it and it can therefore, uh, as you refer to it as business, mix it can therefore, I think, um, you know, change the shape of the business, uh, in not so much nii fee and commission and although, there will be some of that but but velocity of the balance sheet supporting Revenue growth.

Speaker Change: That's great. Thank you.

Jeremy Sigi: Then the next question comes from Jeremy, sigi from BMB paribar exam. Please go ahead.

Jeremy Sigi: Thank you just really 1 follow-up from me. Um, you were starting to talk about the next business plan, which I was Finding quite interesting, some of the comments you're making there. Um, I know we've got to wait for the details, but could you just tell us about the sort of guiding priorities as you do the work for that plan? And you know what success will look like for you.

Jeremy Sigi: Yeah, of course. Um,

Jeremy Sigi: we have, we do expect actually if I go if if if I think about the next

Jeremy Sigi: 3 years, if I think about what is happening, uh, in Europe, uh, and in Germany. I do believe that, uh, from where we are right now that we will see some solid growth, um, in the, uh, corporate bank and in the private bank. This is why we are actually now doing also the Investments. Like we started the Investments on the defense side and on the team side while we are thinking about reallocating uh, part of the capital. So, um, the 4 businesses? Uh, we we uh, clearly want to focus on. Um, if I think from a regional point of view, uh, I think we have in particular growth opportunities in the corporate bank and in the private bank, uh, here in in the Home Market. But also in the, in the wider European part.

Jeremy Sigi: Um, second, uh, second second Point, uh, when when you, when you look out, um, I think it is super important. Also, when we talk to our clients, that actually there is, um, a remaining bank, which is a global bank out of Europe. Uh, again, what I said before, um, that um, the clients are looking, uh, more and more for the European alternative when it comes to global banking and therefore, um, I think the strategy going forward will clearly also mean that we are focusing on our growth areas. Be it in, Asia the Middle East, but also in the US that we can provide our

clients with the right access uh, there

Speaker Change: And thirdly, um, I think now it's all about growth and optimization and and um, James just said it that uh a we are not Capital constraint B to be very honest. If we look at the capital allocation and um the return on the deployed Capital so far. Um, there is lots for improvement. And therefore, the next 3 years will all about, after we restructured the bank and transformed, the bank is now optimizing that deployed capital and we are also, um, in the position, um, to, to have those discussions, which we need to have. If there is a client where for 3 or 4 years, actually, we haven't seen the returns, then we need to re price. We can do it now and, and we will do that. Um, and, and therefore SVA. And then, obviously, the next level of fine tuning, Our Target operating model with taking further costs out will be. Um, so to say, the third dimension of the strategy going forward, um, so I would describe it here. You will get lots more.

Speaker Change: More, um, than later, uh, in the year. But as you can, hopefully hear from it quite a lot of optimism when I think from which level we start now,

Speaker Change: That's great. Thank you.

Speaker Change: And the next question comes from Matthew, Clark from mediobanca, please go ahead.

Um hello uh 2 questions for me 1 again on the Corporate Center. Um I mean you guided revenues roughly zero at the start of the the year and you've obviously come in better than that in the first half. I'm just wondering whether based on the foreseeable elements of a Corporate Center. You still see an Outlook as being uh zero for the coming quarters. Or is there any reason to think uh, above or or positive or negative, for the quarters ahead to the extent that you can foresee these factors? Um, second question is on risk, weighted asset growth. What is your kind of midterm ballpark expectation for risk weighted asset growth for the group given you have new investment opportunities, uh, clearly coming and and then some lingering uh, regulatory headwinds presumably as well. So those 2 questions, please,

Speaker Change: Sure, Matthew. Uh, thank you for the uh, I I would

Speaker Change: Put zero in, in the, in the, in the third, and fourth quarters for for the Corporate Center. Um, again, we see some some pluses and minuses to Stefan's question, you know, some of the dollar euro a rate differential is still there, but there's also some things that in terms of Treasury and funding that we we think offset it. So zero is a good uh, a good assumption. It means

Speaker Change: For our Outlook, you know, that we would be retaining, the upside that we we achieved in the in the first half. Um, and so that's overall positive.

Speaker Change: And as we talked about before, you know, we we do expect growth in the in the years to come and in terms of uh a growing business and and and growing strong intermediation for uh for clients.

Speaker Change: And just on that, is it reasonable to impute? That? That should be above that annualized, 20 billion, uh, that you're talking about for for the remainder of the year and future years as you see wider economic growth pick up Etc.

Speaker Change: Yeah, it's goes. I mean look the the first half has been unusually slow because we did have the impact of of 5 billion of of securitization. So so that was probably seasonally unusual. And and so you you'd have sort of more more underlying growth kind of built into the second half. I'm not trying to add annualized that um, as as it is. Um, yeah. Going forward. Again, it's it's going to be a, a push and pull. Um, the the nice thing is it's a normalized portion pull. Its it is, um, by and large organic growth in the business and capital Generation. Um, offsetting 1 another, um, with a, an excess Capital being deployed into into shareholder distributions and, and, and potentially inorganic. Um, and that's a, that's a normal healthy place for us to be. I would just remind on 2 things, you know that are, I'll call it seasonal in the next 2 years. We have the impact of the, um, the kind of the lapsation of the oci.

Speaker Change: I filter which which affects us? Um, first of January of 26 and then frtb at least under current expectations uh go live in on the 1st of January 27th. So there there are some some still some changes uh to to plan for

Speaker Change: Um and then each first quarter we we will we will recognize the um the standardized approach oper risk rwa um that that pertains to the revenue of the prior year. Um so those are the those are the I'll call it exogenous impacts on on the on the capital ratio in the in the years that lie ahead and the rest is normal business development and distributions.

Speaker Change: Thanks very much, very clear.

And the next question comes from Andrew kums from City. Please go ahead.

To follow-ups, if I may please 1 of the capital return and 1 coming back to the corporate bank, um, some Capital return.

Speaker Change: I just wanted to understand uh, the uh, interaction between 50% payout ratio and then this new commentary around Distributing Capital. When sustainably exceeding a 14% core Tier 1 ratio and, but which of the 2? Do you see is the floor.

Speaker Change: I did well. So in the event that a 50% power ratio took you to a 13.8% quarter 1 ratio, would you be happy with that? Or would you have to trim back the buyback on that basis? So if you could just clarify, um, and then my second question on the corporate bank, what I'm struggling with is the positive rhetoric versus what we've actually seen on 2025. So as you allude to, there's been this step change in the German government mindset, you've got all of the fiscal stimulus coming on board. It's going to increase loan, demand, and second, half, and 2026. At the same time. You have all your 25 guidance, uh, for the corporate bank has been slightly lowered. If we look at the loan growth, it's slightly distorted by effect, but there is no loan growth at the moment. So, I guess how, how quickly can that change is my question. And when you look at say Commerce Bank targeting an 8% kagar, and in their corporate bank, loan growth over the next 4 years, could you do something similar or

Speaker Change: Is the business mixture, very different and that's not a feasible Target.

Speaker Change: Thanks Andrew. Um, look on the payout ratio, uh,

Speaker Change: you know, just

Speaker Change: I think you need to have confidence that we're able to steer.

Speaker Change: the the ratio at least between that 13 and a half and and 14%

Speaker Change: um, sort of in the ordinary course you have to remember. And, and this is part of the, the thinking behind setting the range that that at the 50% payout ratio policy, we disregard earnings above that amount. Um, in in the ratio

So in you, so we finished the year. Let's say hypothetically, I think Flora asked the question at the very beginning of the call. If we finish the year at 14%,

Um, and then we would would start a new year, um, earning and and acre if you like, um, the next next annual 50% payout.

Speaker Change: and at that point,

You know, generation of capital above the 14% given all other movements, um, would be Capital that, at some point would could be invested or distributed distributed. Um, and that goes a little bit to the sustainability. So, we, we, we have to be able to evidence that, that, that will be sustainably above. So, I, I guess the point is to, to just remind you that, the, that the interim profit recognition. Uh, essentially says that, that that the start the the ending point ratio, um, you know, already includes all of that, uh, 50%. Um, there's a little bit of pressure as I mentioned, just a moment ago in in, in q1. But then, as you build through the balance of the year that you would expect to be to be to build building excess capital

Speaker Change: Bank in the L lag, uh, Christian may want to add, but look, there is a lag, it's it's a business that, that, um, again, the balance sheet component, um, is based on the stock of, of business on the, on the asset and and deposit side. Um, and the, the, the business overall, including the fee and commission income piece relies on, on essentially, putting on new contracts, new relationships willing winning rfps. And so, there's a little bit of a dynamic of of how much

Speaker Change: much work is is in, is is pursued to to replace the base book if you like of of business, uh, and and how much of the of the new business growth and at a point in time, um, you know, contributes to, to revenue growth,

Speaker Change: Um, and so, I think at the moment we're running a little bit in place, um, out out out running some of the, the pressures that I alluded to. Um, but I, as I say, as we get towards the end of the year, I think we'll, we'll start to run that win that race and see, um, those re that Revenue growth start to come back with with the lag that I, that I mentioned and the the the impact of the fiscal now tangibly flowing through into into business volumes.

Speaker Change: Yeah, I there's not a lot to add from from my side. I mean, James already alluded to it. That that we actually saw a little bit of long growth, um, uh, in in the second quarter. And and it's it's it's the start of that. What we see as a recovering economy, which is also confident enough to start investing again. Number 1

Speaker Change: Um, I think sometimes we are underestimating um the time to invest, you know, last year, we were talking about, for instance, um, the transaction and and, and the long uh relationship transaction. We won with Lufthansa on Miles and more um that had a preparation time of 2 years. Um we are coming to an end of a of of this preparation um that will have uh then the impact uh actually in particular from 2026 on of the

Speaker Change: Time of those kind of uh, transactions and new relationships. It's not only that 1. We are working on on various on that. And that all uh, is is coming back and then last but not least. Um, I I really do think that, um, you know, if if I see how many Investments have been hold back in the German economy, in particular in the midcaps family-owned, uh, corporates that that is actually, uh, being reversed. And, and that means uh, absolutely upside from, uh, for us. And therefore, um, I think it's actually well explainable what. We are seeing now and what we potentially see in Q3 but clearly with the upside in 26 and 27 and therefore we are actually very bullish and will invest into this business. We have a long-term view here.

Speaker Change: Thank you, be.

Speaker Change: As a reminder, anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and 1 at this time. And the next question comes from Tom Howard, for at KBW, please go ahead.

Tom Howard: Hi. Thank you for taking my questions. Um, so trust me. Look, well done on the the Capital Performance. Um, so in that light kind of given the excess that is emerging, I'm just wondering how you balance the potential investment opportunities arising from the the fiscal stimulus with BuyBacks and potential Acquisitions. You know, what are the hurdle rates or conditions needed to provide prefer 1 over the other?

Tom Howard: And then secondly, sorry go back to to revenues again, but on fees.

Tom Howard: if I recall the stuff of the year, you had expected,

Tom Howard: An increase of 800 million across the corporate and private Banks, and the asset management uh division.

Speaker Change: The original group Revenue, building blocks for the year versus today. Your Revenue Target is becoming, you know, increasingly dependent on trading, which is obviously not ideal, but it also leaves you kind of up against it, if you look out for 2026 and Beyond, um, and finally, sorry if I missed it. But is there a date set for the potential? Um, strategy update later this year? Thank you.

Speaker Change: Hi, Tom. Thank you. Uh, I'll I'll you take a stab at both and Christian may want to add, um,

Speaker Change: Look the, the threshold. It's a good question. It's, it's 1 of the reasons. I think this shareholder value, add discipline that we've instilled around the bank. Um, is so important because because anything, that any business that we do any investment programs that we initiate need to clear a hurdle, um, and, and that hurdle needs to be at least our cost of capital if not the, the impact of of the alternative which is to distribute. Um, and so, in that sense, I think you should take comfort that that the, you know, that the the competition if you like for deployment of capital inside the company and between organic or inorganic decisions and the distribution is is Lively. Uh, and we clearly want to deliver on the distribution promises that we've we've made and growth thereafter.

Speaker Change: So, if I look to 26, um, you know, obviously we are I think at this point, very clearly going to be in the position to fund, uh, at least our dividend and then a healthy buyback. Um, and if you look at the progression that we've, we've had over the past several years. Um, we we've certainly Target, um, to be able to continue that progression. Um, that would be something we need to to earn in a sense by generating excess Capital, but there will clearly be a bias to delivering on that when we think about, uh, about how to deploy capital in the company.

Speaker Change: On the fees, uh, you you make a fair point, you know, I I would have hoped to be higher than where we are right now in fee and commission income. Um, In fairness, the shortfall is not in the corporate bank. Um, so that was at 6% year-on-year, the biggest part of the shortfall is, is on a, which, of course, is a fee commission, income generating business. And as Christians said at the outset, we do see a a recovery, the second half of the year, that should should begin to make up some of that. Some of that Gap and actually a little bit in the private bank as well as as as wealth management activity. Um, you know kind of capital markets activity. By by from high net worth individuals, has been a little bit stalled by the by the environment as well.

Speaker Change: Um, so, you know over time I think we'll close the gap. I'm confident, we'll close the gap to 3 billion, uh, a quarter. And you see in commission income, you know, likely next year, I would have wanted to be closer this year, but let's see where, where we, where we finished the year and the third and fourth quarters, uh, against that, uh, that type of ambition.

Tom Howard: Hope that helps Tom.

Speaker Change: Yeah.

Speaker Change: yeah, I I just wanted to to add in particular on your um,

Speaker Change: Distribution question and and balance. Um, I think it's a really good question and and this is exactly what we are now planning for um, in order to give you more guidance later this year.

Speaker Change: But I simply wanted to also tell you, um, obviously, we want to build this bank for the long term and, and therefore, uh, the balance must be right. But let me also say, we know,

Speaker Change: That we asked for a lot of patients from our investors over the last years, and I think we have shown that step by step. Uh, we are paying back and this is not ending. Uh, we know that there is more to come and that the investors are opposite very close to our heart.

Speaker Change: Okay, thank you. Just just a quick follow up with with with James. It's on the on the fee development. Um,

Speaker Change: I thought the 800 million was specifically just for the corporate asset management and the private bank with another 5 to 600 million in the OA. Um,

Speaker Change: In the corporate bank. You know what? I'm getting here on year

Speaker Change: is you're only up to 77 million, um, on half on half basis, which is versus I thought was 400 million. So it, it feels like some could be to do with FX, but it feels like there is an underperformance there. I'm just thinking, you know, is there anything that you've seen? That might

Speaker Change: have been different from now versus what you'd thought 6 months ago.

Speaker Change: In there.

Speaker Change: Carrying forward a little bit of underperformance relative to our own planning from the from the first quarter, uh, and we'd be targeting obviously growth in in, in the, in the back, half of the year year on year in fee and commissions in in in the corporate bank that that should help close the gap. You're pointing out

Okay, thank you.

Speaker Change: Thank you, Tom.

Speaker Change: And gentlemen, this was the last question. I would now like to turn the conference back over to eana for any closing remarks.

Speaker Change: Thank you for joining us and for your questions, for any follow-ups. Please come through to the investor relations team and we look forward to speaking to you on our third quarter call

Speaker Change: Ladies and gentlemen, the conference is now concluded. And you may disconnect. Thank you for joining and thank you for choosing code score. You may now. Disconnect your lines. Goodbye.