Q2 2025 Bayerische Motoren Werke AG Earnings Call - Q&A
Maximilian Schberl: Welcome back to our quarterly earnings call. Oliver Zipse and Walter Mertl are also back in the room with me. The line will be open shortly for your questions. The operator will first give you some technical instructions. Please.
Also, back in the room with me, the line will be open shortly for your questions.
The operator will first give you some technical instructions, please.
Operator: Ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin our Q&A session. If you have a question, we ask that you please use the raise hand function at the bottom of your Zoom screen, or if you have dialed in, please press star nine to enter the queue. Once your name has been announced, you can ask the question. If you want to withdraw your question, please lower your hand using the raise hand function in the Zoom app or via telephone, press star nine. Thank you, and please stay tuned for our first question. Our first question comes from Patrick Hummel at UBS. Please unmute your line.
Ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin our Q&A session.
If you have a question, we ask that you please use the raise hand function at the bottom of your Zoom screen, or if you have dialed in, please press star 9 to enter the queue.
Once your name has been announced, you can ask the question.
If you want to withdraw your question, please lower your hand. Using the raise hand function in the Zoom app or via telephone press star 9, thank you and please stay tuned for our first question.
Our first question comes from Patrick Hummel at UBS, please unmute your line.
Patrick Hummel: Good morning, everybody. Thanks for taking my questions. Two questions for Walter and Oliver. No offense, but we just met in Munich for the strategic questions, so I will focus on two financial ones, if you do not mind. First, regarding the tariff impact, thanks for the quantification. I think the 200 basis points in the second quarter impact, that is clear. If I apply simple math, 150 basis points in the first half and 125 for the full year, that suggests about 100 basis points for the second half.
Yeah, good morning. Um, Everybody. Thanks for taking my questions. Um, 2 questions for Walter please and, and Oliver know, no offense, but we just met in Munich for the Strategic question. So I'll focus on 2 Financial ones, if you don't mind. Um, first regarding the Tariff impact, thanks for the quantification. Um,
Patrick Hummel: I am just wondering if you would say this 100 basis points run rate for the second half for tariffs should be also a good indication for how things would look like going into 2026, even maybe as a more, let us say, cautious scenario because you might be able to mitigate more of the tariff impact via pricing and optimization of your industrial footprint. That is the first question: is 100 basis points a conservative run rate for the future? My second question, I think you are still holding on to your China guide volume-wise flattish, which means better than minus 5% or at least minus 5%. Are you still comfortable with that?
I think, um, the the hundred, um, the the 200 basis points in the second quarter impact, that's clear. Um, if I apply simple math, 150 basis points in the first half and 125 for the full year, that suggests about 100 basis points for the second half. So, I'm just wondering if you would say this, um, 100 basis points run rate for the second half for tariffs should be, um, also a good indication for, um, you know how things would look like going into 2026? Uh, even maybe as a as a more, let's say, cautious scenario because you might be able to mitigate more of the Tariff impact via pricing and optimization of your industrial footprint. So, that's the first question is is 100 basis points. A conservative run rate for the future. Um, and my second question, um, I think you're still holding on to your China guide, volume wise, flattish, which means better than minus 5 or at least minus 5. Um,
Patrick Hummel: If not, if maybe the number would be a bit more closer to minus 10%, would you still feel comfortable with the group guide in terms of slight volume growth and the 5% to 7% margin range? Just to get an idea about stress testing your assumptions here for China. Thank you.
Are you still comfortable with that? And if if if not if maybe the number would be a bit more closer to minus 10, would you still feel comfortable with the group guides in terms of slide, volume growth and the 5 to 7% margin range? Um just to to get an idea about you know stress testing your your assumptions here for China. Thank you.
Maximilian Schberl: Thank you very much. Patrick, Walter.
Thank you very much, Patrick Walter.
Walter Mertl: Hello, Patrick. With respect to your math on tariffs, I can just reiterate that for the full year impact, we have 1.25%, so one and a quarter, and it is around one and a quarter. You also do know that not every deal is closed yet. I also mentioned already that we do not take our credit scheme we proposed and tried to get into the U.S. deal. We took that one out of this year's expectations, but we are still fighting for it because we are still convinced that has to be included to honor the production in the country, not just in the U.S., but also even in Europe. We always talked about that one also in Europe. But with respect to our guidance and this one and a quarter percent point, that is not included anymore. That does not mean that we are not fighting for it.
Walter Mertl: With respect to your question on 2026, I will elaborate about this one in March at the press conference. Why is that? If you just have a look for the last six months, a lot of things happened impacting tariffs. The next six months, I guess there could be also some changes. That is the reason why we rather speak about when it is due and time to discuss about it. Your question about China, I just want to reiterate, we are not doing guidance by region. The guidance is set on the world and not on the region. Of course, we see all these topics in China affected by the strong monitoring of the authorities with respect to the commissions paid from external banks to the dealers and the impact, especially on the first week of July.
Back to you on MAR on terrorist. I can just reiterate that for the full year impact we have 1.25% so 1 and a quarter and it's around 1 in the quarter. You also to know that not every deal is closed yet. Um and I also mentioned already um that we don't take our credit scheme, we proposed and and tried to get into the US deal. Um, we took that 1 out of this year's expectations, but we are still fighting for because we are still convinced that has to be included, um, to honor the production in the country, not just in the US, but also even in in Europe, right? So, we always talked about that 1 also in Europe, but with respect to our guidance, and this 1 and a quarter percent point that is not included anymore. But that doesn't mean that we are not fighting for, with respect to your question on 2026. I will elaborate about this 1 in March at the, uh, press conference. And why is that if you just have a look for the last 6,
Months, a lot of things happened. Impacting tariffs. So, um, the next 6 months, I guess I could be also some changes. And that's the reason why we rather speak about when it's due and time to discuss about it.
Your question about China. I just want to reiterate, we are not doing guidance by region. The guidance is set on the world.
Walter Mertl: Of course, we are seeing that. You are also aware that we are restructuring our dealer size. Of course, once our ambition on flattish is up to minus 5% versus last year's, we clearly approach that one from the level below. Of course, all depends on the recent developments in the markets. We see some improvements week by week, but it all depends. I think that is still comfortable. Finally, to end up with our volume guidance, if we just have a look on Q2 in the quarter two, you just saw, despite the fact we lost 13.7% year on year in the quarter two, the full world was still positive by 0.4. We compensated some losses in China year on year with European and America performance. That is still a clear statement. The world guidance is intact, independent of the situation there in China. Thank you.
And not on the region. Of course, we see all these topics, uh, in China affected by the strong, monitoring of the authorities, with respect to the commissions paid from external Banks to the dealers and the impact, especially on the first week of July, of course, we are, we are seeing that. You're also aware that we are restructuring our dealer, um, size, but of course, was our ambition on flattish is up to minus 5% versus last year, we clearly approached that 1 from the level below and of course, all depends on the recent developments in the markets. We see some improvements uh week by week but it all depends.
Volume guidance if we just have a look on Q2 in the quarter 2, you just saw despite the fact we lost 13.7% year on year in the quarter 2.
The full world was still positive by 0.4. So we compensated, um, some losses in China here on the year as European and America performance. So that is still a clear statement. The world guidance is intact independent of the situation there in China.
Maximilian Schberl: That's awesome. Thank you very much. Next question. Thank you, Patrick. Next question, please.
Thank you, that's all. Thank you very much next question.
Operator: Our next question comes from Tim Rokossa at Deutsche Bank. Please unmute your line.
Thank you. Patrick next question, please.
Our next question comes from Kim ricoa at Deutsche Bank.
Please unmute your line.
Patrick Hummel: Yeah, thank you very much, Max, Oliver, and Walter. I have two questions. The first one to you, Walter, probably. I think one of the most appealing aspects of your equity story is that you can actually plausibly claim that the investment peak is behind you because you invested in all the necessary flexibility and capacity. Can we talk a little bit about the phasing and seasonality here when we think about quarters? We have seen another step in the right direction during Q2. Is this something that you think will continue over the next few quarters? Is it volatile? Perhaps you can contextualize this with what we should expect in terms of seasonality for margin and cash flow in Q3 and Q4 this year. Secondly, not sure, but probably Oliver to you. I agree with your comment on the press call.
Yeah, thank you very much, Mark. Oliver and alter. I have 2 questions. The first 1 to you was a probably uh, I think 1 of the most appealing aspects of your Equity stories, is that you can actually plausibly claim that the investment Peak is behind you because you invested in all the necessary flexibility and capacity.
Now, can we talk a little bit about the phasing and seasonality here when we think about quarters, we have seen another step in the right direction during Q2, is this something that you think will continue over the next few quarters? Is it volatile? And perhaps, you can contextualize this with what we should expect in terms of seasonality for margin and cash flow in Q3, and Q4 this year,
Patrick Hummel: It's all about building attractive products and that it outweighs things like even tariffs. In Europe, we actually noticed that a couple of OEMs talk about good momentum now, even those with older portfolios like Mercedes, for example. Where do you think that emergence of the European consumer, at least on the premium side, but also upper mass market side, comes from? How do you feel how sustainable that is? Thank you.
And then, secondly, not sure but probably Oliver to you. I agree with your comment on the Press Corps. It's all about building attractive products and that it outweighs things like even tariffs. Now in Europe, we actually noticed that a couple of oems talk about good momentum. Now even those with older portfolios like Mercedes for example, where do you think that emergence of the European consumer? At least on the premium side? But also upper Mass Market side comes from and how do you feel how sustainable that is? Thank you.
Maximilian Schberl: Okay, we start with Oliver and then Walter. Oliver, please.
Oliver Zipse: Good morning, Tim. Nice to talk to you. Let us have a look at Europe, and that is where your question is directed. Europe has an ever-aging age of the product, the car fleet. I think now also comes the time to replace that fleet, and customers, of course, know that. That is the first thing. So it is quite obvious that there is a replacement momentum in Europe. The second is that, especially BMW, we have a very attractive product portfolio over all segments, starting on the very top with Rolls Royce, then 7 Series. The 8 Series is still in the market, and all the way down to the 1 Series and Mini. You can have in every segment, you have combustion engines, you have the electric fleet.
Okay. We start with Oliver and then Walter. All of us, please. Uh, good morning, Tim. Uh, nice to talk to you. Um, let's have a look at Europe, and that is where your question is directed—um, Europe.
Has an Ever aging.
Age.
Of the product, uh, uh, the car Fleet.
and I think now also comes the time to replace that Fleet and customers of course know that
That's the first thing. So it's quite obvious that there is a replacement momentum uh, in Europe. The second is that
Especially BMW. Um, we have a very attractive product portfolio. Overall segments,
Starting on the very, on the very top with Rolls-Royce, then 7 Series. The 8 series is still um is still in the market.
and all the way down to the 1 series and Minnie
Oliver Zipse: On top, as I said in the media conference call, we never sold as many M products as we have done before. So the whole breadth of product offerings leads to, of course, a growing market share. Is that sustainable? I think it is because the 27 countries in Europe are much more predictable than what we see, especially in China. Also, of course, we have political stability inside of Europe. So we see for the remainder of the year and also going into 2026 a robust, predictable market momentum, which is able to compensate some of the more difficult markets like in China, for example.
And uh, you can you can have in every segment. You have combustion engines, uh, you, you you have the electric Fleet and on top. Um, as I said in the, in, in the media, um, conference call, um, we never sold as many M products as as we as we've done before. So the whole breadth of product offerings leads to, of course, a growing market share.
and um,
is that sustainable? I think it is because the 27 countries in Europe are very are much more predictable than what we what we see especially in China.
So, um, and also, of course, we we have political stability inside of Europe. Yeah. Um, so, so we see for the remainder of the year and also going into 26, a robust, predictable Market to Monto, which is able to compensate some of the, um, of of the more difficult markets like, um, like in China for example,
Maximilian Schberl: Thank you. Oliver, Walter, please.
Thank you. Oliver Walter please.
Walter Mertl: Just reiterate the strength of Europe. To speak about the second price level of our sole side is less than 20%. We have a strong first price level, which is even stronger. With respect to your right directions, you asked after Q2. The free cash flow is on par with previous year's level. We shouldn't underestimate the second half here is also different to previous year. Why is that? Because CapEx peak, for example, was last year in Q4. That is not going to happen this year. We will have less CapEx in Q4. We have the seasonality of our working capital procedures. Not to forget, we are also aiming to organize profit in Q3 and Q4. Otherwise, we couldn't confirm our full-year guidance. All these elements together end up that we are still confirming our 5 billion free cash flow.
And just reiterate the strength of uh Europe. Uh just to speak about the second price level of our soul side is less than 20%. So we have a strong first price level um which is even more stronger than with respect to your right directions you are after Q2. So the free cash flow is on par with previous year's level.
But we shouldn't underestimate the second half here is also different to previous year. Why is that? Because capex speak for example, was last year in Q4
Walter Mertl: If you just think about last year when we had the big IBS impact, we also organized the right free cash flow ultimately, and we are not going to have that. Not to forget on the consistent approach, which you saw on the cost side, R&D as well as the operational costs. We came down in Q1 year on year. We came down in Q2 year on year. We are planning to go down in Q3 as well as in Q4 year on year. All that is proving our consistent approach, first of all, and secondly, is underpinning a stronger free cash flow in the second half here. I think that's the main relevant things for you. Many thanks.
That we still confirming our 5 billion free cash flow. And if you just think about last year, when we had the big IBS impact, we also organized the right free, cash flow, ultimately, and we are not going to have that.
Not to forget on a consistent approach, which you saw on the cost side R&D, as well as the operational costs. We came down in q1 here on year, we came down in Q2 year on year and we are planning to go down in Q3 as well as in Q4 year on Year, all that is proving, um, our consistent approach, first of all and secondly is on the pinning, um, a stronger free cash flow in the second half year.
Um, I think that's the main relevant things for you. Many, thanks.
Maximilian Schberl: Thank you very much, Tim Rokossa. Next question, please.
Thank you very much, Tim Raa. Uh, next question, please.
Operator: Our next question comes from Stephen Reitman at Bernstein. Please unmute your line.
Our next question. Comes from, Stephen wrightman at benstein, please unmute your line.
Stephen Reitman: Yes, good morning. Thank you very much. You mentioned in the speeches that you had already journalists testing the iX3 in a preform in Miramar in June. Could you comment on the reactions you received, particularly from Chinese journalists and other people who know that market very well?
Yes, good morning. Uh, thank you very much. Um, you mentioned, um, in the speeches that you'd had already a journalist testing the ix3, um, in kind of like, in a free forum in Miramar, in June, could you comment on the reactions, you received, um, particularly from Chinese, um, journalists and other people who know that market very well?
Maximilian Schberl: That is your question? Yes. Okay. Then Oliver, please.
That is your question? Yes, okay. Then Oliver please
Oliver Zipse: I think what we have done, of course, on purpose, because the iX3 is not only the front runner of the NEUE KLASSE, it also encloses a complete product and corporate strategy directed towards four different technology clusters. You can only experience that when you drive the car, not by looking only at the battery size and so on. What do you find out if you combine that driving experience around these four technology clusters? Wherever we go, whether it is European journalists, whether it is American journalists, whether it is especially Chinese journalists, they say, "Wow, this is a masterpiece of engineering." How it fits together, how it feels when you drive the car, especially if you drive it against current competition.
I think, um, what we have, what we have done.
Uh, of course on purpose because the ix3 is not only the front runner of the noi cluster. It also um,
um encloses a complete product and corporate strategy uh directed towards 4 different, um technology classrooms and you can only experience that when you drive the car not by looking
only at the battery size and so on.
and what we find out if you, if you combine that Driving Experience around these 4 technology clusters
wherever we go, whether it's European journalists, whether it's American journalists, whether it's especially, especially Chinese journalists, they say, well,
Well, this is a masterpiece of engineering.
Um, how it fits together?
How it feels when you drive the car, especially if you drive it against current competition.
Oliver Zipse: For example, if we have the objective, everything that has to do with assistant systems, meaning autonomous driving, it has to be smart, it has to be symbiotic, and it has to be safe. Symbiotic means that the car is your companion, and it is not just a function which you buy and put into a technology stack and put it in the car. I think when the journalist drove the car, I said, "I have never driven a better BEV in my life." This is not only directed about the electrical drivetrain. This is how it feels. Therefore, we were extremely optimistic when we unveiled the car in early September and then launched the car in early November that there will be a substantial market demand because that car is going to be, at that point in time, the benchmark of the industry.
um, just for example, if we, we have the objective, everything that has to do with assistance systems, meaning autonomous driving,
It has to be smart, it has to be symbiotic and it has to be safe.
And symbiotic means that the car is your companion and it's not just a function which you which you buy and put in it to a technology stack and put it in the car.
And I think when the turn on this drove, the car is it. I've never driven a better path in my life.
And this is not only directed about the electrical drivetrain. This is how it feels.
And there, therefore, we were extremely optimistic. When
when we, when we, uh, um, um, unveil the car in early September and then launched the car in early November,
That there will be.
um,
Oliver Zipse: That is what whoever we talk to, whatever is written about the car, which is reflected by media and journalists. You already hear from what I am saying. We are very optimistic about the market success of the iX3, but also the subsequent cars, the i3 and the other cars which are coming closely after.
a substantial market demand because that car is going to be at that point in time The Benchmark of the industry.
And that is what whoever we talk to whatever is written about the car, uh, which is reflected by, by media internalist. So you, you already hear from what I'm saying, we are very optimistic about the market success of the ix3, but also the subsequent cars, the I3 and the other cars which are coming closely as
Maximilian Schberl: Okay. Thank you very much. Next question, please.
Operator: Our next question comes from Sam Perry at BNP Paribas. Please unmute your line.
Thank you. Okay, thank you very much. Next question, please.
Our next question.
Comes from Sam, Parr.
Please unmute your line.
Maximilian Schberl: Sam, are you with us? Hello? We don't hear you.
Sam.
Are you with us?
Hello.
We don't hear you.
Operator: We will move on to the next question, which is from Jose Asumendi at JPMorgan. Please unmute your line.
Morgan, please unmute your line.
Various Analysts: Thank you very much. Two questions for Oliver, please. Good morning. Oliver, in the light of the rapid developments we are seeing from Tesla and Waymo when it comes to deployment of Level 4 autonomous driving, I would love to get your thoughts, please, on how you strategically think about autonomy within BMW and how you tackle Level 3, Level 4 autonomous driving within the house. Who are your key partners? Ultimately, whether you think this is a technology you need to be involved at the forefront in order to be able to protect pricing power in the premium segment. The second question also, Oliver, for you as well. When it comes to tariffs, I would like to understand, beyond the framework we have seen between Europe and U.S.
Thank you very much. Uh please and good morning Oliver um in the light of uh the rapid development, we're seeing from Tesla and way more. Uh when it comes to deployment of level 4, autonomous driving, I would love to get the thoughts please on how you strategically think about autonomy within BMW. Um, and how do you tackle level 3 level 4 out of what time within the house uh who are your key partners?
Um, and ultimately, whether you think this is, uh, uh a technology, you need to be, you know, involved at the Forefront in order to be able to protect, uh, pricing power in the previous segment.
Various Analysts: when it comes to tariffs, what are the maybe outstanding bolt-on negotiations that BMW strategically is looking to pursue in order to maybe round up the agreement? Thank you.
And the second question Also earlier for you as well, uh, when it comes to tariffs, um, I would, I would like to understand, you know, beyond the framework, we have seen between Europe and us when it comes to tariffs. What are the maybe outstanding Bolton? Uh, negotiations that BMW strategically is looking to, to pursue in order to maybe round up the the agreement. Thank you.
Maximilian Schberl: Thank you very much, Jose. The answer will come from Oliver.
okay, thank you very much for
Oliver Zipse: The first question, if you talk about individual mobilities, is we have to answer the question, what business are you in? Of course, we ask ourselves, what business are we in? I can tell you what business we are not in. We don't build trucks. We don't build pickup trucks. We are not in mobility services. We are not in driverless cars. That's the first question, what do you have to do? The second thing, we are not testing out business models. When we launch a car, it must be profitable from the first car on. This is what we are in. In line with that, you will see that in the NEUE KLASSE, that assisting systems, autonomous systems have to be in line with that business we are in. That means individual mobility in the premium segment.
The answer, welcome from Oliver. Um,
First question, if you talk about individual mobilities is we have to answer the question, what business are you in?
And of course we we ask ourselves. What business are we in?
I can tell you what business we are not in.
We don't build trucks. We don't build pickup trucks,
We are not in mobility services.
We are not in driverless cars.
and,
That's the first question. What you have to do? The second thing we are not.
Testing out business models. When we launched a car, it must be profitable from the first car on
This is what we are in.
and in line with that and you will see that in the no cluster
That assisting system autonomous systems have to be in line with that business. We are in. That's means individual mobility in the premium segment.
Oliver Zipse: I cannot talk about other business models, but you have to answer the question, are you profitable? Do you have a chance to be profitable? Do you have a chance to be profitable if the regulator has not admitted specific things? Only to have a testing ground in some areas of the world does not mean that this is scalable. So I cannot tell you the logic of other market participants who think that this will be profitable. I cannot answer that question. But we're in the business of having profitable, high-tech, premium individual mobility, and completely autonomous cars are not part of that business model. The second question, I think we have answered that before. I think the most important thing that we come to an agreement, what has been done by a handshake agreement between the EU and the United States.
I cannot talk about other business models but you have to answer the question. Are you profitable? Do you have a chance to be profitable?
You have a chance to be profitable if.
The regulator has not admitted specific things.
And only to have a testing ground in some areas of the world does not mean that this is scalable.
So, I kind of tell you the, the logic of other Market, participants who think that this would be profitable. I cannot answer that question.
But we're in the business of of be having profitable.
High-tech.
Premium individual mobility and completely autonomous cars.
are not part of that business model.
The second question. Um,
I think we've we've answered that before.
I think the most important thing that we
Oliver Zipse: We must now quickly finalize and implement the agreed measures. That's the first priority. Whether we pursue an individual agreement, that has to be seen, but that's not the most important thing. I think the most important thing to now come to a conclusion, to a reliable conclusion that we have a 15%, 0% agreement on the United States and the EU tariffs, that's the most important thing. I think it's a good agreement for both sides because it ends a never-ending dispute, which you can do forever. I think that's the best thing for both sides that could be achieved at this point in time. As we said before, it's not a complete disaster for our business model because BMW Group has a global business model. We import and export into the United States and the EU at the same time.
That we come to an agreement. What has been done by handshake agreement between the EU and the United States.
And we must Now quickly finalize, and implement the agreed measures. That's the first priority.
and uh, whether
Whether we pursue individual agreement, that has to be seen. But that's not the most important thing, I think the most important thing
To now come to conclusion to a reliable conclusion, that we have a 15% 0% agreement on United States and the EU terrorists. That's the most important thing and I think it's a good agreement for both sides.
Because it it ends and never ending dispute, which you can do forever.
You know, and I think that's the best thing for both sides, that, that that has been, that that could be achieved at this, um, uh, point in time. And as we said before,
Oliver Zipse: So there is some offset included in that deal because we have that business model. The most important thing is that Europe recognizes that this is a business model that works, which is not confined and restricted to the European Union, but this is a global business model. That is the most important thing that has to be recognized. This is not a disadvantage. This is a great advantage for European companies.
It's not a it's not a complete disaster for our business model because BMW has a global business model we Import and Export into the United States and the EU at the same time.
so, there is some some, um, offset included in that deal because because we have that business model and the most important thing,
Global business model. That is the most important thing that has to be recognized and this is not a disadvantage. This is a great Advantage for European companies.
Maximilian Schberl: Okay. Thank you very much, Jose, for your question. Next question, please.
Great, thank you very much for your question. Uh, next question, please.
Operator: Our next question comes from Michael Tyndall at Deutsche Bank. Please unmute your line by pressing star six and ask your question.
Our next question comes from Michael punza at zzb.
By pressing star 6.
And ask your question.
Maximilian Schberl: Hello, Michael.
Various Analysts: Michael Tyndall, can you hear me?
Maximilian Schberl: Yes. Yes. Yes, we hear you.
Hello, Michael. Yeah microphones are can you hear me?
Various Analysts: Okay. Please give us your question. Thank you. I have one question regarding the CO2 targets in Europe. You mentioned several times that you will meet that target already in 2025. Do you see the risk that it becomes a disadvantage in competition in 2026, 2027, assuming that other carmakers can push electric vehicles sales by lower prices or higher incentives?
Yes. Yes. Yes, we hear you. Okay, please give us your question. I have 1.
Yeah, I have 1 question is regarding the few to um Targets in Europe, you mentioned several times that you will meet the target already in 2025. Do you see the risk that become a um disadvantage? Uh in competition in the Years 2627 assuming that other car makers can push uh best sales by lower prices or higher incentives?
Maximilian Schberl: Thank you very much, Michael. Oliver Zipse, please.
Oliver Zipse: Mike, thank you for that question. I have a two-parted answer to your question. We are not concerned about, and I can only speak for BMW. We are not concerned about 2025, 2026, or 2027. We will reach the targets even if there is some market pressure with enough leeway to fulfill the requirements. We have prepared for many, many years for that. We will never push something into the market just to reach a specific CO2 requirement from the legislator. At the same time, while saying that, I think we nevertheless need a different framework for CO2 regulation. To look only at the tailpipe will lead over time to serious market distortions, which less effectiveness of CO2 reduction, which less profitability for market participants, and therefore less investment capabilities into climate change.
Thank you very much, Michael. Oliver zipper please.
Mikey, thank you, thank you for that question. Um,
I I have a 2.
2-part answer to your question.
We we we're not concerned about and I can only speak for BMW. We're not concerned about 25 26 or 27, you know, we will, we will reach the targets. Even if there is some Market pressure with enough leeway to, to fulfill the requirements, we have prepared for many, many years for that.
Um,
and we will never push something into the market, just to reach a specific. CO2 requirement from from the from the legislature.
um,
at the same time.
while saying that I think we nevertheless need
A different framework for CO? regulation is to look only at the tailpipe.
Will lead over time to Serious Market distortions which, which less effectiveness of CO2 reduction.
Oliver Zipse: Therefore, we advocate for a different regime, which is oriented towards a lifecycle investment, which includes supply chains during the creation phase of the car, which looks at a technology-neutral approach, which includes e-fuels or alternative fuels, which includes the type of power you use for driving the car all the way down to what happens to recycling the car. This is the much more effective and much more competitive approach to CO2 regulation. Are we there yet? No, we are not there yet, but we made a proposal to advocate for. I can tell you that we get more and more institutions, market participants who we convince that this is a better approach. Is that happening overnight? No, of course not. This will happen during the next 12, 24, 36 months until we are there that we get into a new regime.
With less profitability for Market, participants and therefore less investment capabilities into climate change.
And therefore we we advocate for different regime which is oriented towards a life cycle assessment, which includes Supply chains during the creation phase of the car.
which looks at the uh, a techn technology neutral approach which, which includes e fuels or alternative fuels
Which includes the type of uh Power you use for driving. The car, all the way down to what happens to to recycling the car. This is the much more effective and much more competitive. Uh, approach to CO2 regulation. Are we there yet? No, we are not there yet but we made a proposal to advocate for. And, uh,
I can tell you that we get more and more.
Oliver Zipse: If we do not start to argue what is the better regime, every week you run into a much more difficult competitive situation and market situation in the markets, as you can already see in Europe. People report diminishing profits, and that has nothing to do with the tariffs of the trade relation with the United States. This is purely self-inflicted, and that has only started now. Yes, especially with the NEUE KLASSE, we will reach the targets. At the same time, we advocate for a new regime. Thank you.
Institutions Market participants, who we convinced that this is a better approach. Is that happening overnight? No, of course not. This will happen during the next 12, 24, 36 months until we are there that we get into a new regime but if we don't start to argue,
What is the better regime?
Every week, you run into much more difficult competitive situation in Market situation, um, in the markets, as you can already see in Europe, you know, people people report diminish diminishing profits and that has nothing to do with the terrorists, uh, of the trade relation with the United States. This is purely.
Self-inflicted. And that will has only started now. So. So, uh, yes. Especially within our cluster. We will reach the targets but at the same time we advocate for a new regime. Thank you.
Maximilian Schberl: Thank you very much, Michael. So, next question, please.
Operator: Our next question comes from Adrian Yanoshik at Redburn Atlantic. Please unmute your line.
Thank you very much Mah. So next question, please.
Our next question.
Please unmute your line.
Patrick Hummel: Hi, morning. Thanks, everybody, for taking my question. I had a question more at the top of the mix, even above GKL, and I am talking about Rolls-Royce. Do you have any updates or KPIs that you might be able to share, whether it is ASP or personalization rates? I think tied to that, maybe any updates on the Goodwood expansion and what it could contribute to the business going forward. I think maybe a second part of the question on the same theme. Any next steps that you are able to share on the development of the Alpina sub-brand starting next year? We had some early comments a couple of weeks ago. It sounds like it is still a very low volume, high-performance orientation, but I would love to get an update if it is possible. Thanks.
Hi morning. Thanks everybody. Uh, for taking my question. Uh, I had a question more at the top of the mix even above gkl.
Kpis, that you might be able to share, uh, whether it's ASP or personalization rates. And I think tied to that, maybe any updates on the Goodwood expansion and what it could contribute to the business going forward. And I think maybe a second part uh, of the question on the same theme.
Any next steps that you're able to share on the development of the Alpena sub-brand starting next year? We had some early comments a couple of weeks ago. It sounds like it's still a very low volume, high performance orientation, but I would love to get an update, if possible.
Thanks.
Maximilian Schberl: We start with the Rolls Royce question with Walter and then Oliver. Yes, Walter.
Walter Mertl: Hello, Adrian Yanoshik. As you do know, we do not say explicitly to our brands dedicated numbers, as you do know. But with respect to Rolls-Royce, you do know that we have over 500,000 revenue at one we shared already last year, and that is still the case. So it is more than 500,000 revenue a car. Bespoke is more than 50% on a share. That is a really good business, but I am not talking more about it other than, yes, we have an expansion on the Goodwood side because the business is really good. We are not overdoing it because this is a special clientele, and that is the reason why we are not talking so much about it. Many thanks.
So we start with the voice question with Walter and then Oliver. Yes. Well done.
Hello. Hello Adrian. Well, as you do know, we don't say explicitly to Our Brands, dedicated numbers as you do know. But with respect to Royce Royce, you do know that we have over 500,000 Revenue at 1 we shared already last year and that is still the case. So it's more than 500,000 Revenue a car and we spoke is more than 50% um on a share. So that is a really good business but I'm not talking more about it. Other than yes we have an expansion on the Goodwood side because the business is really good um and we are not overdoing it
Because this is a special clientele and that's the reason why we're not talking so much about it. Many, thanks.
Maximilian Schberl: Oliver.
Whatever.
Oliver Zipse: Adrian, you apparently watch that closely, and that is a very good thing. If you look at our brands, especially in the upper segment, Rolls-Royce, but also BMW, what you see is that individualization plays an ever-increasing role. At BMW, we launched two cars, the Skytop and the Speedtop, for example. Very low volume, ultra-low volume in the upper price range in a never until then achieved price range. Those two cars were immediately sold out, immediately. You mentioned Alpina. There is more to come, but that is a similar approach, low volume, high profitability, high individualization apart from normal products. You have their Skytop, you have Speedtop, you have Alpina on the BMW side. The same thing you see at Rolls-Royce, an ever-higher individualization rate.
Um,
Adrian. You you apparently watched us closely and that is a very good thing.
If you if you look at our Brands especially in the in the upper segment uh, Rolls-Royce but also also BMW. What you see is that individualization plays an ever increasing role
At BMW, we launched two cars, the Sky Top and the Speed Top, for example.
Very low, volume, ultra low volume.
um, in the Upper price range in in, in, in a never
Until then.
um,
Um, um, achieved price range.
Those 2 cars were immediately sold out immediately.
You mentioned Alpena. There's more to come but that is a a similar approach, low volume high profitability. High individualization, apart from
Uh, from from, from normal products.
So you have their Skytop, you have speed, you have Alpena on the BMW on the BMW side and the same thing. You see at Rolls-Royce and ever higher,
Oliver Zipse: In that context, we also invest into Goodwood to even expand that individualization. It is never about volume. It is about increasing the contribution margin per car. That is working quite well. Independent of market sentiment, there is a very, very stable marketplace for ultra-high net worth individuals. We are expecting targeting these new customer bases. At Rolls-Royce, you see all kinds of different individualization. You see the normal bespoke business, which is ever-increasing. You see custom-built cars, and you have even one-offs, which we have done in the past three years, three times. Rolls-Royce had one-off cars, which only exist one time. That business models to individualize in all kinds of segments and all kinds of price ranges, you will see that at BMW, and you will see that also at Rolls-Royce. That, of course, stabilizes both brands. Thank you.
Individualization rate.
And in that context, we also invest into good. Good to even expand that individualization. It's never about volume.
It's about increasing, the contribution margin per car and that is working quite well.
because independent of Market sentiment, there is
A very, very stable Marketplace for ultra high, net worth individuals.
And we are we're expecting targeting these these um these new um customer bases and Rolls-Royce. You see all kind of difference individualization, you see the normal bespoke business which is ever increasing
you see custom build cars, and you have even 1 of us which we've done in the in the past 3 years 3 times,
Rolls-Royce had 1 of cars which only exists 1 time.
And so that business models to individualize in all kinds of of segments and all kinds of price ranges.
Uh, you will see that at BMW, and you will see that also, uh, um, at Rolls-Royce. And that's, of course, stabilizes both brands.
Thank you.
Maximilian Schberl: Thank you very much, Adrian. Next question, please.
Operator: Our next question comes from Sam Perry at BNP Paribas. Please unmute your line by pressing star six and ask your question.
Thank you very much. Adrien, next question, please.
Our next question comes from Sam Perry at BNP parida, please unmute your line by pressing star 6 and ask your question.
Various Analysts: Hi there. Can you hear me now? Hi there. Can you hear me now?
Hi there. Can you hear me now?
Maximilian Schberl: Yes, we hear you.
Various Analysts: Apologies for having to finish your talk. Just a couple of questions on China, please. The first one was about discussions currently ongoing regarding sort of minimum price guarantees replacing tariffs in Europe for Chinese-produced vehicles. Can you talk a bit about the puts and takes for that for BMW Group, both from a perspective of your mini exports from China to Europe and also, I guess, the European business more broadly? The second question is also on China. At the CMB a few weeks ago, you mentioned the only area of the Chinese market growing was below 150K, and you did not want to compete there, which was a large reason for why your volumes have been under pressure.
Hi there. Can you hear me now? Yes, we hear you. I apologize having having some issues. Sure. Um, just a couple of questions on China. Please first, 1 was about the discussions, currently ongoing regarding sort of minimum price, guarantees replacing tariffs in Europe. Uh, for Chinese produce Vehicles. Can you talk a bit about the puts and takes for that for BMW? Both from a perspective of your mini exports from China to Europe? And also I guess the European business more broadly,
Various Analysts: However, the data I am looking at, and maybe I am looking at the wrong data, shows that the market is growing up to around the 300K mark, which is whereabouts you have about 50% of your product offering. My question, I guess, is, is the reason the volumes are under pressure because you do not compete at that price point or because you are continuing to lose some market share? Thank you.
Yeah, the Chinese market growing which below 150k and you didn't want to compete there which was a large reason for why your volumes have been under pressure.
However, the data I'm looking at and maybe maybe I'm looking at the wrong data but shows that the Market's growing up to around the 300 km Mark, which is where that, where whereabouts you have about 50% of your product offering. My question I guess is is the reason the volume to Under Pressure because you don't compete at that price point or because you're continuing to lose some market share. Thank you.
Maximilian Schberl: Yes. Thank you very much, Walter Mertl.
Yes, thank you very much Roi time.
Walter Mertl: Well, on the EU China tariffs, you do know our statement. We have been persisting serious criticism of this legally implementing regulation, and on which these countervailing duties are based. The BMW Group has filed an action for enrollment of this regulation with the General Court, and this is still ongoing. We haven't any conclusion yet, but we are coping with it. With respect to the competing on the side, yes, you're right. On the tune side, up to 300,000, there was growth. Up to 150,000 RMB, there was growth of 18% year on year. Between 150 and 300,000, there was growth of 4% year on year. But we shouldn't forget what I mentioned previously. We are restructuring our dealer network. Performance of the healthy dealers is still a good one.
Awesome. Well on the EU, China tariffs, you do know our statement. Um, we have been positioning serious criticism of this legally implementing regulation uh and on which these countervailing Duties are based. Upon W group has filed an action for new mind of this regulation with the general court and this is still ongoing, we haven't any conclusion yet?
But we are coping with it and with respect um to the competing on the side. Yes you're right under the tune side up to 300,000 that was growth up to 200,000 remb. That was close of 18% year on year and between 150 and 300,000. That was close of 4% here in year.
Walter Mertl: While restructuring these ones, and we are having good progress by doing that one since November 24, and we will finish that by end of this year, we lose out here some performance. That is the real kick-in, and the issue we are facing on the volume side. Thank you.
And, um, but we shouldn't forget what I mentioned. Previously, your restructuring, our dealer Network, um um, performance of the healthy dealers is still good 1. Um, but whilst restructuring these ones, and we are having a good progress by doing that 1 since November 24, and we will finish that by end of this year. Um, we lose our gear, some performance, and that is the real kick in. Um, and the issue we are facing on the volume side.
Thank you.
Maximilian Schberl: Thank you very much. Next question, please.
Thank you very much. So next question, please.
Operator: Our next question comes from Michael Tyndall at HSBC. Please unmute your line.
Our next question comes from Michael Tindle at HFBC. Please unmute your line.
Michael Tyndall: Morning, gentlemen. Thanks for taking my question. I am going to stick with China. Walter, I wonder if you could help me out here a little bit. The dealer rationalization, what does that mean in terms of your P&L? Are those dealers a drag on volumes? Are they competing aggressively on price, or are you, in fact, supporting them through this transition? Is their compensation going out such that when those dealers are no longer in business, you will actually see a meaningful impact? So I am kind of, if you could give us a bit more detail as to what exactly will change once those dealers are no longer in operation. My second question is for Oliver. Oliver, when we spoke last year, you very rightly described a Chinese market that was in this unsustainable state in terms of the number of operators.
Gentlemen, thanks for taking my question. Um, I'm going to stick with China and Walter, I wonder if you could help me out with here. A little bit, the dealer rationalization,
What does that mean? In terms of your P&L, are those dealers a drag on volumes? Are they competing aggressively on price? Or are you, in fact, supporting them through this transition as their compensation, going out such that when those dealers are no longer in business?
you'll actually see a meaningful impact. So I'm kind of if you could give us a bit more detail as to what exactly will change, once those dealers are no longer in operation and then the second question for Oliver Oliver when we spoke last year, you very rightly described a Chinese market that was in this unsustainable state.
Michael Tyndall: I am noting that you have said things have started to change in June, but I am also noting that some consolidation efforts have not really played out. From your perspective, are we on the cusp of seeing the Chinese market start to consolidate such that it is a more rational, sustainable market going forward? Thanks.
in terms of the number of operators and I I'm noting that you've said things have started to change in June
But I'm also noting that some consolidation efforts haven't really played out from your perspective. Are we on the cusp of seeing the Chinese market start to consolidate such that it's a more rational, sustainable market going forward? Thanks.
Maximilian Schberl: We will start with Walter Mertl and then Oliver Zipse. Yes, Walter Mertl, please.
Walter Mertl: Hello, Michael. On the dealer side, we mentioned that one already, that we are in the middle of this restructuring side. We are closing down some outlets, and we are selling some outlets from one dealer group to other ones. I want to reiterate that existing dealer groups are buying those outlets. That is positive. With respect to the end of this year, we are assuming that by then, compared with the end of 2024, we will have roughly 10% less dealer points and roughly 20% less on the owner structure. This is going on. Nothing has changed in our story. It is just getting executed. I think that is the big thing. With respect to compensation you mentioned, as I always said last time, no dealer compensation has been neither announced nor paid hence.
So we start with fighter and then Oliver. Yes. Walter please.
Hello, Michael.
So on the dealer side. Yeah we mentioned that 1 already that we are in the middle of these 3 structuring site. We are closing down some elephants and we are selling some Outlets from 1 dealer group to other ones. And I want to reiterate that existing dealer. Groups are buying those Outlets, so that is positive. And this respect to end of this year. We are, um, assuming that by then on purpose, end of 24, we will have roughly 10%, less, sealer points, and roughly 20% Less on the owner structure. So this is going on. There has nothing changed in our story. It's it's just getting executed. Uh, I think that is the big thing with respect to compensation. You mentioned. Um, as I always said last time,
Walter Mertl: Of course, while transaction pricing in the last three weeks has seen slight sequential recovery, it does not entirely compensate all these losses of the bank commissions they previously received or up to the end of June they received. We are, of course, closely monitoring that one. As good partners, we are, of course, also in good discussions with our dealer partners. That is the thing for your first question, I think.
Um, no dealer compensation has been neither announced nor pay tense. And of course while transaction pricing in the last 3 weeks has uh seen slight sequential recovery.
of course, it doesn't entirely compensate, all these losses of the bank commission, say, previously received off to end of June, they received we, of course, closely monitoring that 1 and as the partners, we are, of course also in good discussions with our dealer partners,
That's the thing for your first question, I think.
Oliver Zipse: I would like to answer the question about the Chinese market situation. Of course, the Chinese market will remain very dynamic in the coming weeks and months and even years. Two things are very important to recognize. First of all, the market share of Chinese manufacturers in the home market is still below the value of European manufacturers in Europe. The current share of Chinese car manufacturers in China is 59% compared to over 65% of European players in Europe. There is even more development. What is the final endgame? Is it 70%? It is probably going to be above the 66%. We must expect that in the next months and years, the market share of Chinese manufacturers will grow up to 65% or 70%. That is the first thing. Everything else would be, I would say, unrealistic.
Of course, the Chinese market will remain very dynamic in the in the coming weeks and months and and even years, 2 things are um are very important to to to recognize first of all, the market share of Chinese manufacturers. In the Home Market is still below the value of European manufacturers in Europe.
Oliver Zipse: That means for the rest of them, for non-Chinese players, there is still a market share of one-third, which is substantial due to the size of the market. With these remaining Chinese manufacturers, you currently have more than 100 brands. Can you expect that these 100 brands with the remaining market share in China will remain? That is also very unlikely. If you ask the question, who are the dominant players? I cannot answer that question. There will be some flourishing brands. There will be some brands who struggle. What you see is that the profitability level in the Chinese markets is very low, also for the Chinese players. That will lead to more market dynamics, but brand will become even more important. That is a good thing. Whoever has a strong brand, who has some heritage, who has a track record of reliability of high-quality products has an advantage.
So the current share of Chinese uh uh car manufacturers in China is 59% compared to over 65% of European players in Europe. So there is even more development and what is the final end game? Is it 70% is probably, it's probably going to be above the 66%. So we we must expect that in the next months and years, the market share of Chinese manufacturers will grow up to 65%. That's the first thing. Everything else would be would be, I would say unrealistic first thing
Now, but that means for the rest of the for, for non-chinese players, there's still a market share of 1/3 which is substantial due to the size of the market.
Um,
Now, with these remaining Chinese M manufacturers, you currently have more than 100 brands.
Can you expect that these 100 brands with the remaining market share in China? Will remain. That's also very unlikely.
Oliver Zipse: Even if the current market conditions are very fierce, that will be the remaining element who is able to stabilize market share or even to grow market share. BMW Group will be one of these brands. Thank you.
Uh, if you ask the question who, who are the, the dominant players? I cannot answer that question, but there, there will be some flourishing plan. Uh, Brands there will be some, some, some, uh, some Brands who struggling, uh, what you see that the profitability level in the Chinese market is, is very low also, for the Chinese player, so that, that will lead to more market dynamics, but brand will become even more important. That's a good thing. Whoever has a strong brand, who has some Heritage, who has a track record of reliability of high-quality products, has an advantage.
Even if the current market conditions are very Fierce, that will be the remaining element who is able to, to, to, uh, to to stabilize market, share or even to grow market, share and BMW will be 1 of these brands.
Maximilian Schberl: Thank you very much. Our last question comes from Horst Schneider.
Thank you very much. So, our last question comes from Horst Schneider.
Various Analysts: Yes, good morning. I hope you can hear me.
Maximilian Schberl: Good morning.
Various Analysts: The last question that I have is the last question, maybe something for Walter. Walter, maybe you can help me to understand the drivers in terms of earnings for H2 now, also more from a sequential perspective. If I reconcile that, you expect rising volumes, China pricing is improving, in contrast, or also tariffs are declining. Then material costs are going up. You ramp up NEUE KLASSE, you ramp up DEPA-Chender plant. So it is a kind of trade-off. When I look at your free cash flow guidance, so you say the free cash flow is higher in H2 than H1, it implies to me that also earnings should be in H2 higher than H1. Is that conclusion right? Does that mean that basically you stay within the 5% to 7% margin guidance also in H2 or also in Q3 and Q4 even?
Yes, good morning. I hope you can hear me. Good morning.
Yes, the last question may be something for Walter. Um, Walter maybe you can help me to understand the drivers in terms of earnings for H2 now.
Also more from a sequential perspective. Um, if I reconcile that you expect Rising volumes
China pricing is improving.
In contrast or also tariffs are declining, then uh material costs are going up, you ramp up, not a cluster you ramp up depletion, the plant. So it's a kind of trade-off.
But then, I look at your free cash flow. Guidance it. But so you say the pre cash flow is higher in H2 than H1.
It implies to me that also earnings should be in H2 higher than H1. Is that conclusion? Right. And is does that mean that basically you you stay within the 5 to 7% margin guidance?
Various Analysts: In other words, Q2 was a trough in terms of margin. Is that conclusion correct? Thank you.
Also in H2 or also in Q3 and Q4 even so in other words, Q2 was a trough in terms of margin. Is that conclusion? Correct, thank you.
Maximilian Schberl: Walter.
What's up?
Walter Mertl: Oh, Horst. Nice try. The full-year guidance is still intact, as I mentioned. The full-year guidance is still intact. I think we have a good starting basis because if you have a look for my half-year numbers, Auto EBIT is on 3.6 billion euros. My total group profit is starting with 5.7 billion euros, all half-year numbers. Even if you would just double it up, it is already in reach in my guidance. We have, of course, a lot of ups and downs in the second half year with respect to profits. Everything could happen, of course, but there are chances and not just risks. I think we have a good starting basis, first of all, eventually better than a lot of other ones, first of all. Secondly, I can just reiterate what I mentioned to Patrick and Tim beforehand on the free cash flow.
Hello, horse, nice try. So before your guidance is still intact, as I mentioned,
Walter Mertl: We presented that our fixed costs, our operational fixed costs are declining every quarter. We presented and proved that one in Q1, and we have done so in Q2. We also promised already in March that we are going to do that all along, meaning also in Q3 as well as in Q4. Plus, not to forget our seasonality on working capital in Q4. You know how our structure is running in Q4. That is always beneficial for free cash flow, which we also presented last year. Last but not least, our CapEx development over the quarters. If you have a look for 2024, you saw there was a huge CapEx impact as a burden on free cash flow in Q4. We also mentioned that we have a very good slowdown of CapEx because we did our homework already.
So the full year guidance is still intact um, and I think we have a good starting basis because if you have a look for my half year, numbers out of ebit is on uh, 3.6 billion euros. And my total group profit is starting with 5.7 billion euros all half year numbers. So even if you would just double it up, um, it is already in reach in my guidance and we have, of course, a lot of ups and downs in the second half year, um, with respect to profits and everything Could Happen, of course, but there are chances, and not just risks. So I think we have a good starting basis, first of all, eventually better than a lot of other ones. First of all, and secondly, I can just reiterate what I mentioned, um, to Patrick and Tim before and on the free cash flow.
Walter Mertl: Other ones have eventually a different strategy and have to have more CapEx in Q4 whilst we not, especially not versus last year where we had our final peak. If you put all these jigsaws together, you end up in our free cash flow prediction and you end up with our guidance on profitability on group as well as on Auto EBIT. Many thanks, Horst.
Proof that 1 in q1 and we have done. So in Q2, and we also promised already in March that we are going to do that all along. Meaning also in Q3 as well, as in Q4, Plus not to forget our seasonality on working capital in Q4, you know, how our structure is running in Q4, that's always beneficial for free cash flow, which we also presented last year. And last, but not least, our capex, um, development over the quarters. Um, if you have a look for 24, you saw there was a huge capex impact as a burden on 3ish flow in Q4. And we also mentioned that we have a very good um, slowdown of capex because we did our homework already, right other ones have eventually different strategy and have to have more capex in Q4 whilst we not, especially not versus last year, where we had our final Peak.
Maximilian Schberl: Good. Many thanks to Walter. Yes, Horst?
And if you put all these checks those together, you end up in our free cash flow prediction and you end up with our guidance on profitability on group as well as on out a bit. Many. Thanks for us. Good, many thanks to many. Thanks to Walter.
Various Analysts: Yeah, just to follow up maybe to Walter on that. So in other words, CapEx is up H2 versus H1, and working capital in H2 is a tailwind or a headwind?
Yes, host.
Yeah, just to follow up maybe on to Walter on that. Um, so in other words, capex is up in H2 versus H1, and working capital in H2 is a tailwind or headwind.
Walter Mertl: Horst, nice try again. On my full-year number, CapEx is lower on full year this year than last year. You saw already a decline in the first half year. You will also see a decline in the second half if you just compare year on year. The first half versus first half 2024 are the same on 2025. That is just easy.
Well, that's that's right. And so again, on my full year number
Capex is lower on full year this year than last year, and you saw already a decline in the first half year. You will also see a decline in the second half. If you just compare year on year, the first half was the first year. Uh, first half year 24, at the same on 25, that that is just easy.
Various Analysts: Okay. Thank you.
Maximilian Schberl: Thank you very much, Horst. Thank you very much for your last question, and all the best to you. We have reached the end of the telephone conference. Bye-bye and servus from Munich.
Okay. Thank you. Okay, thank you very much, of course. Thank you very much for your last question.
And all the best to you and we have reached the end of the telephone conference byebye and there was from Munich.