Q3 2025 PennantPark Investment Corp Earnings Call

Speaker #3: We are holding for today's PennantPark conference call. We are still a few additional participants, and the call should begin shortly. We thank you for your patience and please continue to stand by.

Event Specialist: We are holding for today's PennantPark conference call. We are still awaiting additional participants, and the call should begin shortly. We do thank you for your patience, and please continue to stand by. Please stand by. Hello, and welcome to PennantPark Investment Corporation's third fiscal quarter 2025 earnings conference call. At this time, all participants have been placed on listen-only mode. The call will be open for a question and answer session following the speaker's remarks. If you would like to ask a question at that time, simply press star one on your telephone keypad. If you would like to withdraw your question, press star two on your telephone keypad. It is now my pleasure to turn the call over to Mr. Art Penn, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of PennantPark Investment Corporation. Mr. Penn, you may begin your conference.

Speaker #4: Please stand by. Hello, and welcome to PennantPark Investment Corp's third fiscal quarter 2025 earnings conference call. At this time, all participants have been placed on listen-only mode.

Speaker #4: The call will be open for a question-and-answer session following the speaker's remarks. If you would like to ask a question at that time, simply press star one on your telephone keypad.

Speaker #4: If you would like to withdraw your question, press *2 on your telephone keypad. It is now my pleasure to turn the call over to Mr. Arthur Penn, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of PennantPark Investment Corp.

Speaker #4: Mr. Penn, you may begin your conference.

Speaker #5: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to PennantPark Investment Corp's earnings conference call for the third fiscal quarter 2025. I'm joined today by Rick Allorto, our Chief Financial Officer.

Art Penn: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to PennantPark Investment Corporation's earnings conference call for the third fiscal quarter 2025. I am joined today by Rick Allorto, our Chief Financial Officer. Rick, please start off by disclosing some general conference call information and include a discussion about forward-looking statements.

Speaker #5: Rick, please start off by disclosing some general conference call information and include a discussion about forward-looking statements.

Speaker #6: Thank you, Arthur. I'd like to remind everyone that today's call is being recorded. Please note that this call is the property of PennantPark Investment Corp, and that any unauthorized broadcast of this call in any form is strictly prohibited.

Rick Allorto: Thank you, Art. I'd like to remind everyone that today's call is being recorded. Please note that this call is the property of PennantPark Investment Corporation and that any unauthorized broadcast of this call in any form is strictly prohibited. An audio replay of the call will be available on our website. I'd also like to call your attention to the customary safe harbor disclosure in our press release regarding forward-looking information. Today's conference call may also include forward-looking statements and projections. We ask that you refer to our most recent filings with the SEC for important factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from these projections. We do not undertake to update our forward-looking statements unless required by law. To obtain copies of our latest SEC filings, please visit our website at pennantpark.com or call us at 212-905-1000.

Speaker #6: An audio replay of the call will be available on our website. I'd also like to call your attention to the customer safe harbor disclosure in our press release regarding forward-looking information.

Speaker #6: Today's conference call may also include forward-looking statements and projections. We ask that you refer to our most recent filings with the SEC for important factors that could cause actual results to differ materially from these projections.

Speaker #6: We do not undertake to update our forward-looking statements unless required by law. To obtain copies of our latest SEC filings, please visit our website at pennantpark.com or call us at (212) 905-1000.

Speaker #6: At this time, I'd like to turn the call back to our Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Arthur Penn.

Rick Allorto: At this time, I'd like to turn the call back to our Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Art Penn.

Speaker #5: Thanks, Rick. I'm going to spend a few minutes to comment on how we performed in the quarter ended June 30th, our dividend coverage and spillover income balance, the current market environment for private middle-market credit, and how the portfolio is positioned for the upcoming quarters.

Art Penn: Thanks, Rick. I am going to spend a few minutes and comment on how we fared in the quarter ending June 30th, our dividend coverage and spillover income balance, the current market environment for private middle market credit, and how the portfolio is positioned for upcoming quarters. Rick will provide a detailed review of the financials, then we will open up the call for Q&A. We are encouraged by a recent resurgence in deal activity, which we anticipate will result in increased loan originations and potential exits of some of our equity positions during the second half of 2025. Additionally, we continue to provide additional capital to many of our existing portfolio companies as they execute their respective growth plans. Our platform continues to prove its strength as we support our existing portfolio companies and private equity borrowers with strategic capital solutions to help grow their businesses.

Speaker #5: Rick will provide a detailed review of the financials, and then we'll open up the call for Q&A. We are encouraged by a recent resurgence in deal activity, which we anticipate will result in increased loan originations and potential exits of some of our equity positions during the second half of 2025.

Speaker #5: Additionally, we continue to provide additional capital to many of our existing portfolio companies as they execute their respective growth plans. Our platform continues to prove its strength as we support our existing portfolio companies and private equity borrowers with strategic capital solutions to help grow their businesses.

Speaker #5: With regard to how we fared in the quarter ended June 30th, our core net investment income was $0.18 per share, compared to total distributions of $0.24 per share.

Art Penn: With regard to how we fared in the quarter ending June 30th, our core net investment income was $0.18 per share compared to total distributions of $0.24 per share. We previously communicated our plan to rotate out of our equity positions and redeploy that capital into interest-paying debt investments, which will drive an increase in our core net investment income. We remain focused on this strategy and are comfortable maintaining our current dividend level in the near term as the company has a significant balance of spillover income, which we are required to distribute. PNNT has $55 million or $0.84 per share of undistributed spillover income, and we will use the spillover income to cover any shortfall in core net investment income versus the dividend while we position ourselves for equity rotation.

Speaker #5: We've previously communicated our plan to rotate out of our equity positions and redeploy that capital into interest-paying debt investments, which will drive an increase in our core net investment income.

Speaker #5: We remain focused on this strategy and are comfortable maintaining our current dividend level in the near term, as the company has a significant balance of spillover income which we are required to distribute.

Speaker #5: P&&T has $55 million, or 84 cents per share, of undistributed spillover income, and we will use the spillover income to cover any shortfall in core net investment income versus the dividend while we position ourselves for equity rotation.

Speaker #5: We are encouraged by increased M&A activity in the market and believe that this growing activity level will result in meaningful cash realizations in our equity portfolio.

Art Penn: We are encouraged by increased M&A activity in the market and believe that this growing activity level will result in meaningful cash realizations in our equity portfolio. Looking ahead, we expect origination activity to be a mix of our existing portfolio companies and high-quality new investment opportunities. We believe that the strongest assets, those with demonstrated growth and tariff resilience, will still command premium valuations and attract sponsor interest. With regard to asset pricing in the core middle market, the pricing on first lien term loans is SOFR plus 475 to 525 for high-quality assets. As always, we will remain rigorous in our underwriting and highly selective in pursuing new investments. We continue to see attractive investments in the core middle market.

Speaker #5: Looking ahead, we expect origination activity to be a mix of our existing portfolio companies and high-quality new investment opportunities. We believe that the strongest assets—those with demonstrated growth and tariff resilience—will still command premium valuations and attract sponsor interest.

Speaker #5: With regard to asset pricing in the core middle market, the pricing of first-lean term loans is 0 for plus 475 to 525 for high-quality assets.

Speaker #5: As always, we will remain rigorous in our underwriting and highly selective in pursuing new investments. We continue to see attractive investments in the core middle market.

Speaker #5: During the quarter, for investments in new portfolio companies, the weighted average debt to EBITDA was 3.8 times, the weighted average interest coverage was 2.6 times, and the yield and maturity was 10.2 percent.

Art Penn: During the quarter, for investments in new portfolio companies, the weighted average debt-to-EBITDA was 3.8 times, the weighted average interest coverage was 2.6 times, and the yield to maturity was 10.2%. As the credit statistics just highlighted indicate, we continue to believe that the current vintage of core middle market directly originated loans is excellent. The core middle market leverage is lower and spreads are higher than in the upper middle market. We continue to get meaningful covenant protection while the upper middle market is primarily characterized as covenant light. As of June 30th, the portfolio's weighted average leverage ratio through our debt security was 4.7 times, and the portfolio's weighted average interest coverage ratio was 2.5 times. These attractive credit statistics are testament to our selectivity, conservative orientation, and our focus on the core middle market.

Speaker #5: As the credit statistics just highlighted indicate, we continue to believe that the current vintage of core middle market directly originated loans is excellent. In the core middle market, leverage is lower, and spreads are higher than in the upper middle market.

Speaker #5: We continue to get meaningful covenant protection while the upper middle market is primarily characterized as covenant-light. As of June 30th, the portfolio's weighted average leverage ratio through our debt security was 4.7 times, and the portfolio's weighted average interest coverage ratio was 2.5 times.

Speaker #5: These attractive credit statistics are a testament to our selectivity, conservative orientation, and our focus on the core middle market. We continue to believe that our focus on the core middle market provides the company with attractive opportunities where we provide important strategic capital to our borrowers.

Art Penn: We continue to believe that our focus on the core middle market provides the company with attractive opportunities where we provide important strategic capital to our borrowers. We have a long-term track record of generating value by successfully financing growing middle market companies in five key sectors. These are sectors in which we possess deep domain expertise, enabling us to ask the right questions and consistently deliver strong investment outcomes. They are business services, consumer, government services, and defense, healthcare, and software and technology. These sectors have also been recession-resilient, tend to generate strong free cash flow, and have limited direct impact to the recent tariff increases and uncertainty. Core middle market companies with $10 million to $50 million EBITDA, is below the threshold and does not compete with the broadly syndicated loan or high-yield markets, unlike our peers in the upper middle market.

Speaker #5: We have a long-term track record of generating value by successfully financing growing middle-market companies in five key sectors. These are sectors in which we possess deep domain expertise, enabling us to ask the right questions and consistently deliver strong investment outcomes.

Speaker #5: They are business services, consumer, government services and defense, healthcare, and software and technology. These sectors have also been recession-resilient, tend to generate strong free cash flow, and have limited direct impact from the recent tariff increases and uncertainty.

Speaker #5: Core middle market companies, with $10 to $15 million of EBITDA, are below the threshold and do not compete with the broadly syndicated loan or high-yield markets, unlike our peers in the upper middle market.

Speaker #5: The core middle market, because we are an important strategic lending partner, the process and package of terms we receive is attractive. We have many weeks to do our diligence with care. We thoughtfully structure transactions with sensible credit statistics, meaningful covenants, substantial equity cushions to protect our capital, attractive spreads, and equity co-investment.

Art Penn: The core middle market, because we are an important strategic lending partner, the process and package of terms that we receive is attractive. We have many weeks to do our diligence with care. We thoughtfully structure transactions with sensible credit statistics, meaningful covenants, substantial equity cushions to protect our capital, attractive spreads, and equity co-investment. Additionally, from a monitoring perspective, we receive monthly financial statements to help us stay on top of the companies. With regard to covenants, unlike the erosion in the upper middle market, virtually all of our originated first lien loans have meaningful covenants which help protect our capital. Product quality of the portfolio has remained strong. We had four non-accruals as of June 30th, which represented 2.8% of the portfolio at cost and 0.7% of market value. Two new investments were added, and one prior investment was removed as it returned to accrual status.

Speaker #5: Additionally, from a monitoring perspective, we receive monthly financial statements to help us stay on top of the companies. With regard to covenants, unlike the erosion in the upper middle market, virtually all of our originated first-lean loans have meaningful covenants, which help protect our capital.

Speaker #5: Credit quality of the portfolio has remained strong. We have four non-accruals as of June 30, which represent 2.8% of the portfolio at cost and 0.7% at market value.

Speaker #5: Two new investments were added, and one prior investment was removed as it returned to accrual status. Subsequent to quarter-end, one non-accrual investment was put back on accrual, and pro forma for the subsequent event, P&&T's non-accruals represent 2.6 percent of the portfolio at cost and 0.6 percent at market value.

Art Penn: Subsequent to quarter end, one non-accrual investment was put back on accrual, and pro forma for the subsequent event, PNNT's non-accruals represent 2.6% of the portfolio at cost and 0.6% at market value. Since inception nearly 18 years ago, PNNT has invested $8.9 billion at an average yield of 11.25% and has experienced a loss ratio on invested capital of approximately 20 basis points annually. This strong track record includes investments on primarily subordinated debt investments made prior to the financial crisis, legacy energy investments, and recently the pandemic. The provider of strategic capital fuels the growth of our portfolio companies. In many cases, we participate in the upside of the company by making an equity co-investment. Our returns on these equity co-investments have been excellent over time.

Speaker #5: Since inception nearly 18 years ago, P& T has invested $8.9 billion at an average yield of 11.25 percent and has experienced a loss ratio on invested capital of approximately 20 basis points annually.

Speaker #5: This strong track record includes investments primarily in subordinated debt made prior to the financial crisis, legacy energy investments, and, more recently, investments related to the pandemic. The provider of strategic capital fuels the growth of our portfolio companies, and in many cases, we participate in the upside of the company by making an equity co-investment.

Speaker #5: Our returns on these equity and co-investments have been excellent over time. Overall, for our platform from inception through June 30th, we've invested over $583 million in equity co-investments and have generated an IRR of 26 percent at a multiple on invested capital of two times.

Art Penn: Overall, for our platform from inception through June 30th, we have invested over $583 million in equity co-investments and have generated an IRR of 26% and a multiple on invested capital of two times. As of June 30th, our portfolio totaled $1.2 billion, and during the quarter, we continued to originate attractive investment opportunities and invested $88 million in four new and 28 existing portfolio companies at a weighted average yield of 10%. Our PSSL joint venture portfolio continues to be a significant contributor to our core net investment income. On June 30th, the JV portfolio totaled $1.3 billion, and during the quarter, the JV invested $22 million at a weighted average yield of 9.8%. In the last 12 months, PNNT's average net investment income return on invested capital in the JV was 17.9%.

Speaker #5: As of June 30th, our portfolio totaled $1.2 billion, and during the quarter, we continued to originate attractive investment opportunities. We invested $88 million in four new and 28 existing portfolio companies at a weighted average yield of 10 percent.

Speaker #5: Our PSLF joint venture portfolio continues to be a significant contributor to our core NII. At June 30th, the JV portfolio totaled $1.3 billion, and during the quarter, the JV invested $22 million.

Speaker #5: At a weighted average yield of 9.8 percent. In the last 12 months, P&&T's average NII return on invested capital in the JV was 17.9 percent.

Speaker #5: The JV has the capacity to increase its portfolio to $1.6 billion, and we expect that with additional growth in the JV portfolio, the JV investment will enhance P&T's earnings momentum in the future quarters.

Art Penn: The JV has the capacity to increase its portfolio to $1.6 billion, and we expect that with additional growth in the JV portfolio, the JV investment will enhance PNNT's earnings momentum in the future quarters. July 2025, PSSL partially refinanced its $300 million debt securitization. PSSL refinanced the non-AAA tranches and decreased the securitization's weighted average spread by 68 basis points to 2.63% from 3.31%. From an outlook perspective, our experienced and talented team in our wide origination funnel is producing active deal flow. We remain steadfast in our commitment to capital preservation and disciplined, patient investment approach. We reiterate our objectives to deliver compelling risk-adjusted returns through stable income generation and long-term capital preservation. We seek to find investment opportunities in growing middle market companies that have high free cash flow conversion.

Speaker #5: In July 2025, PSLF partially refinanced its $300 million debt securitization. PSLF refinanced the non-Triple-A tranches and decreased the securitization's weighted average spread by 68 basis points, to 2.63 percent from 3.31 percent.

Speaker #5: From an outlook perspective, our experienced and talented team, along with our wide origination funnel, is producing active deal flow. We remain steadfast in our commitment to capital preservation and a disciplined, patient investment approach.

Speaker #5: We reiterate our objective to deliver compelling risk-adjusted returns through stable income generation and long-term capital preservation. We seek to find investment opportunities in growing middle market companies that have high free cash flow conversion.

Speaker #5: We capture that free cash flow primarily through debt instruments, and we pay out those contractual cash flows in the form of dividends to our shareholders.

Art Penn: We capture that free cash flow primarily through debt instruments, and we pay out those contractual cash flows in the form of dividends to our shareholders. Let me now turn the call over to Rick, our CFO, to take us through the financial results.

Speaker #5: Let me now turn the call over to Rick, our CFO, to take us through the financial results.

Speaker #6: Thank you, Arthur. For the quarter ended June 30th, GAAP AP and core net investment income was $0.18 per share. Operating expenses for the quarter were as follows: interest and credit facility expenses were $9.2 million, base management and incentive fees were $6.4 million, general and administrative expenses were $1.5 million, and provision for excise taxes was $0.7 million.

Rick Allorto: Thank you, Art. For the quarter ended June 30th, GAAP and core net investment income was $0.18 per share. Operating expenses for the quarter were as follows: interest and credit facility expenses were $9.2 million, base management and incentive fees were $6.4 million, general and administrative expenses were $1.5 million, and provision for excise taxes were $0.7 million. For the quarter ended June 30th, net realized and unrealized change on investments and debt, including provision for taxes, was a loss of $3.6 million. As of June 30th, our NAV was $7.36 per share, which is down 1.6% from $7.48 per share in the prior quarter. As of June 30th, our debt-to-equity ratio was 1.3 times, and our capital structure is diversified across multiple funding sources, including both secured and unsecured debt.

Speaker #6: For the quarter ended June 30, net realized and unrealized change on investments and debt, including provision for taxes, was a loss of $3.6 million. As of June 30, our NAV was $7.36 per share, which is down 1.6 percent from $7.48 per share in the prior quarter.

Speaker #6: As of June 30th, our debt-to-equity ratio was 1.3 times, and our capital structure is diversified across multiple funding sources, including both secured and unsecured debt.

Speaker #6: As of June 30th, our key portfolio statistics were as follows: our portfolio remains highly diversified, with 158 companies across 37 different industries. The weighted average yield on our debt investments was 11.5 percent. We had four non-accruals, which represent 2.8 percent of the portfolio at cost and 0.7 percent at market value.

Rick Allorto: As of June 30th, our key portfolio statistics were as follows: our portfolio remains highly diversified with 158 companies across 37 different industries. The weighted average yield on our debt investment was 11.5%. We had four non-accruals, which represent 2.8% of the portfolio at cost and 0.7% at market value. Subsequent to quarter end, one non-accrual investment was put back on accrual, and pro forma for this subsequent event, non-accruals represent only 2.6% of the portfolio at cost and 0.6% at market value. The portfolio is comprised of 46% first lien senior secured debt, 2% second lien debt, 13% subordinated notes to PSSL, 5% other subordinated debt, 7% equity in PSSL, and 27% in other preferred and common equity co-investments. 90% of the debt portfolio is floating rate. The debt-to-EBITDA on the portfolio is 4.7 times, and interest coverage is 2.5 times.

Speaker #6: Subsequent to quarter-end, one non-accrual investment was put back on accrual. Pro forma for this subsequent event, non-accruals represent only 2.6% of the portfolio at cost and 0.6% at market value.

Speaker #6: The portfolio is comprised of 46 percent first-lean secured debt, 2 percent second-lean secured debt, 13 percent subordinated notes to PSLF, 5 percent other subordinated debt, 7 percent equity in PSLF, and 27 percent in other preferred and common equity co-investments.

Speaker #6: Ninety percent of the debt portfolio is floating rate, and the debt to EBITDA on the portfolio is 4.7 times, while interest coverage is 2.5 times.

Speaker #6: Now let me turn the call back to Arthur.

Rick Allorto: Now, let me turn the call back to Art.

Speaker #5: Thanks, Rick. In closing, I want to express my gratitude to our dedicated team of professionals for their unwavering commitment to P&F and its shareholders.

Art Penn: Thanks, Rick. In closing, I want to express my gratitude to our dedicated team of professionals for their unwavering commitment to PNNT and its shareholders. Thank you all for your time today and for your continued investment and confidence in us. That concludes our remarks. At this time, I would like to open up the call to questions.

Speaker #5: Thank you all for your time today and for your continued investment and confidence in us. That concludes our remarks. At this time, I'd like to open up the call to questions.

Speaker #4: Thank you. If you would like to ask a question, please signal by pressing star one on your telephone keypad. If you're using a speakerphone, please make sure your mute function is turned off to allow your signal to reach our equipment.

Event Specialist: Thank you. If you would like to ask a question, please signal by pressing star one on your telephone keypad. If you are using a speakerphone, please make sure your mute function is turned off to allow your signal to reach our equipment. Again, press star one to ask a question. Our first question comes from Brian McKenna with Citizens.

Speaker #4: Again, press star one to ask a question. Our first question comes from Brian McKenna with Citizens.

Speaker #2: Great, thanks. Arthur, I appreciate all the detail on the outlook into the back half of the calendar year. On the equity rotation opportunity specifically, if M&A activity continues to accelerate here over the next several quarters, what's the ideal timeline to sell a good chunk of the equity portfolio and then reinvest that capital?

Brian McKenna: Great, thanks. Art, I appreciate all the detail on the outlook into the back half of the calendar year. On the equity rotation opportunity specifically, if M&A activity continues to accelerate here over the next several quarters, what is the ideal timeline to sell a good chunk of the equity portfolio and then reinvest that capital? I am assuming there are some meaningful unrealized gains in this part of the portfolio. Do you plan to pay out a substantial amount of these gains once realized in dividends, or will you look to hold off on paying incremental dividends and redeploy the majority of that capital into new loans?

Speaker #2: And then I'm assuming there are some meaningful unrealized gains in this part of the portfolio. So do you plan to pay out a substantial amount of these gains once realized in dividends, or will you kind of look to hold off on paying incremental dividends and redeploy kind of the majority of that capital into new loans?

Speaker #5: Thanks, Brian, and thanks for the question. In terms of timing, look, we believe that M&A will resume. We're seeing it, so we think over the next 12 to 18 months, there's going to be significant progress and hopefully rotating out of both of our equity co-invests, which we don't control, and perhaps some of our control positions, which are some of the bigger, chunkier names.

Art Penn: Thanks, Brian, and thanks for the question. In terms of timing, look, we believe that M&A will resume. We are seeing it. We think over the next 12 to 18 months, there is going to be significant progress, hopefully rotating out of both of our equity co-investments, which we do not control, and perhaps some of our control positions, which are some of the bigger, chunkier names. So kind of a 12 to 18-month horizon. We will have to see in terms of what the characteristics are, but our anticipation is to take the capital and roll it back into yield so that we can generate healthy NII for our shareholders.

Speaker #5: So, kind of a 12 to 18-month horizon, we will have to see in terms of what the characteristics are. But our anticipation is to take the capital and roll it back into yield so that we can generate healthy NII for our shareholders.

Speaker #2: Okay, that's helpful. And then just on the balance sheet, leverage stands at about 1.3 times today. I'm assuming that's a reasonable expectation over the next few quarters here, but once a meaningful portion of the equity portfolio is in fact rotated into the first-lean loans, I mean, should we expect the leverage target to move a little bit higher here, similar to PFLT?

Brian McKenna: Okay, that's helpful. On the balance sheet, leverage stands at about 1.3 times today. I am assuming that's a reasonable expectation over the next few quarters here. Once a meaningful portion of the equity portfolio is in fact rotated into the first lien loans, should we expect the leverage target to move a little bit higher here, similar to PennantPark Floating Rate Capital?

Speaker #5: Yeah, look, it's a good question. I think just from the standpoint of matching, we think of a first-lean portfolio or certainly a heavier first-lean portfolio that could judiciously handle a little bit more leverage.

Art Penn: Yeah, look, it's a good question. I think just from the standpoint of matching, we think a first lien portfolio, or certainly a heavier first lien portfolio, could judiciously handle a little bit more leverage. So that would be a fair assumption, assuming the portfolio kind of normalizes over time.

Speaker #5: So that would be a fair assumption, assuming the portfolio kind of normalizes over time.

Speaker #2: Okay. Thanks so much.

Brian McKenna: Okay, thanks so much.

Speaker #4: And our next question will come from Robert Dodd with Raymond James.

Event Specialist: Our next question will come from Robert Dodd with Raymond James.

Speaker #7: Hi, guys. On the spillover income, obviously $0.84, and I mean, at the pace you're earning, obviously forward curves, et cetera, et cetera. But, I mean, you're only $0.06 short a quarter right now.

Robert Dodd: Hi guys. On the spillover income, obviously $0.84. I mean, at the pace you are earning, obviously forward curves, et cetera, et cetera, but you are only $0.06 short a quarter right now. That spillover would tide you over for a long time if you wanted to. Can you give us any color on where, at what point, in terms of working down that spillover, would you think it is low enough and it would be time to evaluate the dividend? Your earnings profile might be different at that stage, obviously. At what point do you think that is low enough that an evaluation needs to be made on that?

Speaker #7: That spillover would tide you over for a long time if you wanted to. But can you give us any kind of indication as to what point, in terms of working down that spillover, would you think it's low enough and it would be time to evaluate the dividend?

Speaker #7: I mean, your earnings profile might be different at that stage, obviously. But at what point do you think that's low enough that an evaluation needs to be made on that?

Speaker #5: Yeah, so look, I think that kind of jives with the prior question, Robert, which is when can we normalize this portfolio? And when can we normalize the portfolio and when can we rotate it into yield?

Art Penn: Yeah, so look, I think that kind of jives with the prior question, Robert, which is when can we normalize this portfolio and when can we normalize the portfolio and when can we rotate it into yield? So, we think that's a year, year and a half out, kind of over time, be able to do that, come up for air after we normalize things and take a look at what's sustainable, how much spillover we have at that point in time, and kind of reset the table at that point in time. But as we're kind of working that rotation down, we think we just want to kind of keep it as it is.

Speaker #5: So we think that's a year, year and a half out; kind of over time, be able to do that, come up for air after we normalize things, and take a look at what's sustainable, how much spillover we have at that point in time, and kind of reset the table at that point in time.

Speaker #5: But as we're kind of working that rotation down, we think we just want to kind of keep it as it is.

Speaker #7: Okay. Got it. Thank you. On looking at the outlook for, obviously, M&A, as you said, right, it's ramping up. The outlook does look better.

Robert Dodd: Got it, got it. Thank you. Looking at the outlook for obviously M&A, as you said, it is ramping up. The outlook does look better. When you look at the portfolio leverage, at 4.7 interest coverage at 2.5, that should improve if base rates come down. On the originations that you think the market terms right now, would you expect that the leverage to be rising from here in the portfolio or holding steady? Interest coverage improving, obviously. What kind of, what are market terms today on the deals you are looking at versus what the average is in the portfolio right now?

Speaker #7: When you look at the portfolio leverage, you know at 4.7, interest coverage at 2.5. That should improve if base rates come down. On the originations, you think the market terms right now, would you expect that like the leverage to be rising from here in the portfolio or holding steady?

Speaker #7: I mean, interest coverage is improving. Obviously, I mean, what kind of market terms today on the deals you're looking at versus what the average is in the portfolio right now?

Speaker #5: Yeah, so you know it's a good question. And just to reset it, you know when we typically start a new platform, when it's a little bit of a smaller company, it's being bought from the founder, entrepreneur, or family.

Art Penn: Yeah, so, it is a good question. Just to reset it, when we typically start a new platform, it is a little bit of a smaller company. It is being bought from a founder entrepreneur or family, and the leverage will be lower at that point in time. It will be a smaller company. The leverage will be lower. The new loans we made in this past quarter, debt-to-EBITDA was 3.8 times. Out of the gate, interest coverage was 2.6 times. That is kind of a new platform for us as the company matures, as the company does add-on acquisitions, as the company gets larger. It kind of has been balancing out to 4.7 times debt-to-EBITDA for the entire portfolio. So that is typically what it becomes over time. We generally have an aversion to going above five times.

Speaker #5: And the leverage will be lower at that point in time. It'll be a smaller company, the leverage will be lower. You know, the new loans we made in this past quarter, debt to EBITDA was 3.8 times.

Speaker #5: Out of the gate, interest coverage was 2.6 times. And that's kind of, you know, a new platform for us. As the company matures, as the company does add-on acquisitions, as the company gets larger, you know, it kind of has been balancing out to 4.7 times.

Speaker #5: Debt to EBITDA for the entire portfolio is typically what it becomes over time. We generally have an aversion to going above five times.

Speaker #5: I mean, we will do it occasionally when we have real conviction, or it's a larger company, or you know, we just feel like it'll de-risk or de-leverage relatively quickly.

Art Penn: We will do it occasionally when we have real conviction or it is a larger company or, we just feel like it will de-risk or deleverage relatively quickly. Rarely do we start out in a loan where it is above five times. That is just the way we are constitutionally set up. What it will mean also is probably a lower yield, but we are okay with that. We are okay with being on the lower risk end of the spectrum in the direct lending market. Hopefully that gives you an answer to your question.

Speaker #5: So rarely do we start out in a loan where it's above five times. That's just the way we're constitutionally set up. And what it will mean also is probably a lower yield.

Speaker #5: But you know we're okay with that. We're okay with feeling a lower risk end of the spectrum in the direct lending market. So hopefully that gives you an answer to your question.

Speaker #7: Yeah, yeah, it does. That's very helpful. Thank you. And then one more if I can. I mean, you talked about the timeline of 12 to 18 months for equity rotation as well.

Robert Dodd: Yeah, it does. That's very helpful. Thank you. One more, if I can. You talked about the timeline 12 to 18 months for equity rotation as well. Obviously, there's some chunky positions in there. It did sound in your opening remarks that you seem a little bit more optimistic about maybe a couple on a shorter timeframe. Are there any that are actually in the works that could happen this year? If they do occur, would those actually be material? Are you talking about maybe realizing some small positions this year?

Speaker #7: Obviously, there's some chunky positions in there. It did sound in your opening marks you seem a little bit more optimistic about maybe a couple on a shorter timeframe.

Speaker #7: Are there any that are actually in the works that could happen this year? And you know, would those, if they do occur, actually be material? Are you talking about maybe realizing some small positions this year?

Speaker #5: Yeah. So we are starting to see some rotation in the kind of equity co-invests. You know, these are the singles and doubles. And we're starting to see that, which is nice.

Art Penn: We are starting to see some rotation in the equity co-invests. These are the singles and doubles, and we are starting to see that, which is nice. Some of those core middle market companies are getting sold. We have pieces that are $1 million to $5 million in value, and we are starting to see the wheels of commerce getting going there. In terms of the bigger, chunkier, more controlled positions, nothing right now. Hopefully, the M&A spirits will get going and we can see more activity in some of the bigger names sooner.

Speaker #5: Some of those core middle-market companies are getting sold. We have pieces that are $1 million to $5 million in value, and we're starting to see, you know, the wheels of commerce getting going there.

Speaker #5: In terms of the big, bigger, chunkier, more controlled positions, nothing right now. But hopefully the M&A spirits will get going, and we can, you know, see more activity in some of the bigger names sooner.

Speaker #7: Got it. Thank you.

Robert Dodd: Got it. Thank you.

Speaker #4: And we'll take a question from Paul Johnson with KBW.

Event Specialist: We will take a question from Paul Johnson with KBW.

Speaker #8: Good afternoon. Thanks for taking my questions. Just on one specific company in the portfolio, I think it's been a while since the business came up, but it's one of your control positions, JF Intermediate.

Paul Johnson: Good afternoon. Thanks for taking my questions. Just on one specific company in the portfolio, I think it has been a while since the business came up, but it is one of your controlled positions, JF Intermediate. It looked like the mark was pretty stable quarter over quarter. Could you just maybe talk a little bit about how that business is performing year to date? It looks like the financials, what you guys disclosed in the filing, it is not profitable on a net income basis, but maybe more so on a cash flow basis if there is a lot of depreciation in the business. I was just wondering if you can kind of provide an update on how that investment is performing.

Speaker #8: It looks like the market was pretty stable quarter over quarter. Can you just maybe talk a little bit about how that business is performing year to date?

Speaker #8: It looks like the financials, what you guys disclosed in the filing, you know it's not profitable on a net income basis, but you know maybe more so on a cash flow basis if there's a lot of depreciation in the business.

Speaker #8: But yeah, I was just wondering if you can kind of provide an update on how that investment's performing.

Speaker #5: Yeah, it's a good question, Paul. The company generates substantial EBITDA. This was originally mezzanine debt, which we rotated or restructured into an equity position.

Art Penn: Yeah, it is a good question, Paul. The company generates substantial EBITDA. This was originally a mezzanine debt position, which we rotated or was restructured into an equity position. The company is doing really well. The company is doing well. EBITDA is up and significant. EBITDA is well north of $50 million. So it is becoming a substantial company. The company executed a debt refinancing during the quarter. Last quarter, we had a debt position, a first lien loan position in the company. We were refinanced out by a club of direct lenders. We still have the equity position. We are pleased. We got really good demand on the debt side. Some really well-known direct lenders lent money to the company. We are well set up. Hopefully, in the not-too-distant future, to see something on the equity. The company is ramping up well.

Speaker #5: The company's doing really well. EBITDA is up significantly and well north of $50 million. It's becoming a substantial company. The company executed a debt refinancing during the quarter.

Speaker #5: So, last quarter we had a deposition, a first-lien loan position in the company. We were refinanced out by a club of direct lenders. So, we still have the equity position.

Speaker #5: We were pleased. We got really good demand on the debt side. Some really well-known direct lenders lent money to the company, and we're well set up.

Speaker #5: Hopefully you know in the not too distant future to see something on the equity, but like you know the company's ramping up well. You know we got out of our loan and now we're just going to let the company grow and it's got some add-on acquisitions that it can make.

Art Penn: We got out of our loan and now we are just going to let the company grow and it has got some add-on acquisitions that it can make. So we feel it is well set up to increase in value, hopefully, and over time turn into cash for our shareholders.

Speaker #5: So, we feel it's well set up to increase in value, hopefully, and over time turn it into cash for our shareholders.

Speaker #8: Appreciate that. Are you in full control of the equity there, or are you partnered with a sponsor at all?

Paul Johnson: Appreciate that. Are you in the full controlling position of the equity there, or are you partnered with a sponsor at all?

Speaker #5: Yeah, we're partnered with an independent sponsor.

Art Penn: Yeah, we're partnered with an independent sponsor.

Speaker #8: Got it. Okay. I appreciate it. That's all for me.

Paul Johnson: Got it. Okay. Appreciate it. That is all for me.

Speaker #5: Thank you.

Speaker #4: And our next question will come from Melissa Liddell with JP Morgan.

Event Specialist: Our next question will come from Melissa Wedel with JPMorgan.

Speaker #9: Hi. Thanks for taking my questions today. A lot of them have already been asked and answered. But I wanted to follow up on your comment about the joint venture and being able to further scale that.

Melissa Wedel: Hi. Thanks for taking my questions today. A lot of them have already been asked and answered, but I wanted to follow up on your comment about the joint venture and being able to further scale that. A similar question on the equity rotation. I am curious how you are thinking about the timeframe for fully optimizing the JV and sort of the environment that would need to exist in order to do that.

Speaker #9: Similar question on the equity rotation. I'm curious how you're thinking about the timeframe for fully optimizing the JV and the sort of environment that would need to exist in order to do that.

Speaker #5: Yeah. Look, we think certainly over the next probably six to nine months we can fully optimize the JV. And of course, you know the JV could continue; it could grow.

Art Penn: Yeah, look, we think certainly over the next probably six to nine months, we can fully optimize the JV. Of course, the JV could continue. It could grow. You know, we feel like we can optimize the JV fully in the next six to nine months.

Speaker #5: So you know, kind of one step at a time. We feel like we can optimize the JV fully in the next six to nine months.

Speaker #9: Okay. That's helpful. Thanks. And then on the activity side of things, I'm curious if there's anything that you're anticipating on the repayment side in the near term that we should also be thinking about.

Melissa Wedel: Okay. That's helpful. Thanks. On the activity side of things, I'm curious if there's anything that you're anticipating on the repayment side in the near term that we should also be thinking about?

Speaker #5: I'd say normal repayment. Look, when there's deal activity, there's good news and there's bad news. The good news is there's new deal flow. The bad news is some of your existing deals get called out, and that's typical.

Art Penn: I'd say normal repayment. Look, when there's deal activity, there's good news and there's bad news. The good news is there's new deal flow. The bad news is some of your existing deals get called out, and that's typical. That's okay. You know, I referenced getting some of these equity co-investments liquid. That's typically what happens. You make the loan, you have an equity co-investment, the company gets sold. You lose the loan, the loan gets parted out, and you get your cash on the equity co-investment. We're starting to see some of that as M&A resumes.

Speaker #5: And that's okay. You know, I referenced getting some of these equity co-investments liquid. That's typically what happens. You make the loan, you have an equity co-investment, the company gets sold, you lose the loan, the loan gets pared out, and you get your cash on the equity co-investment.

Speaker #5: So we're starting to see some of that as M&A resumes.

Speaker #9: Okay. Thank you.

Melissa Wedel: Okay. Thank you.

Speaker #4: And moving on to Aaron Saigonovich with Trust.

Event Specialist: Moving on to Aaron Sagonovich with Truist.

Speaker #8: Thanks. I was wondering if you could just comment on the competitive environment. There always tends to be a lot of capital kind of available in the wings.

Paul Johnson: Thanks. I was wondering if you could just comment on the competitive environment. It always tends to be a lot of capital kind of available in the wings in the middle market these days. Anything you are seeing from either pricing pressure or you mentioned the covenants were pretty much stable in your neck of the woods. What are you seeing from a competitive environment?

Speaker #8: In the middle market these days, you know anything you're seeing from either pricing pressure, or you mentioned the covenants were pretty much stable in your neck of the woods.

Speaker #8: What are you seeing from a competitive environment?

Speaker #5: Yeah, yeah, it's a good question, Aaron. Look, no doubt there's competition. There always is competition; it ebbs and it flows. I'd say the competition is there.

Art Penn: Yeah, it's a good question, Aaron. Look, no doubt that there's competition. There always is competition. It ebbs and it flows. I'd say the competition is there. It's pretty much the same players behaving in the same way that they historically behave. So generally, the competition is rational. Certainly, relative to the upper market, it's a lot more rational because we're still getting covenants. We still get the monthly financial statements. We get the equity co-invest. We have time to do our diligence. But it's competitive. And certainly, as deal flow comes back, we're hoping that will increase the supply, which by definition may reduce competition a little bit. So, it's competitive out there, and that's where we rely on our existing relationships, our incumbency. There are 190 some companies across the platform. There's such a decent and good deal flow within the portfolio.

Speaker #5: It's pretty much the same players behaving in the same way that they historically behave. So generally, the competition's rational. You know certainly, relative to the upper market, it's a lot more rational because we're still getting covenants, we still get the monthly financial statements, and we get the equity co-invest.

Speaker #5: We have time to do our diligence, but it's competitive. And certainly, as deal flow comes back, we're hoping that that will increase the supply, which by definition may reduce competition a little bit.

Speaker #5: So, but you know it's competitive out there, and that's where we rely on our existing relationships, our incumbency—190-some companies across the platform.

Speaker #5: You know there's such decent and good deal flow within the portfolio. You know a big part of our new deal opportunities and existing portfolio is these companies grow.

Art Penn: A big part of our new deal opportunity is the existing portfolio as these companies grow. They need add-on loans. They need DDTL. Or we're in there with those sponsors. And when you're talking to the sponsors day in and day out about their portfolio, obviously we get a good early first call and a good last look at many of the deals. So there's a lot of deal flow. We remain selective about what we put in these portfolios. But I'd say we're in a pretty good spot right now.

Speaker #5: They need add-on loans; they need TTTL. Or we're in there with those sponsors. And you know, when you're talking to the sponsors day in and day out about their portfolio, obviously, we get a good early first call and a good last look at many of the deals.

Speaker #5: So there's a lot of deal flow. We are you know we remain selective about you know what we put in these portfolios. But I'd say it's we're in a pretty good spot right now.

Speaker #8: Thanks. Appreciate it.

Paul Johnson: Thanks. Appreciate it.

Speaker #4: And the next question will come from Christopher Nolan with Lattenberg-Fahlmann.

Event Specialist: The next question will come from Christopher Nolan with Ladenburg Thalmann.

Speaker #10: Hey, guys. Arthur, given that you have a 2026 debt maturity, and considering the strengthening business environment and the possibility of lower rates, is the general idea to ideally have the income from these equity rotations offset any higher coupon from refinancing the debt?

Robert Dodd: Hey, guys. Art, given you have a 2026 debt maturity and given the strengthening business environment and the possibility of lower rates, is the general idea to ideally have the income from these equity rotations offset any higher coupon from refinancing the debt?

Speaker #5: Yeah. No, it's a good question. That's another variable, Chris. And by the way, Chris, welcome back to Pennant Park, and I want to welcome back Aaron Saigonovich also.

Art Penn: Yeah, no, that is a good question. That is another variable, Chris. By the way, Chris, welcome back to PennantPark. I want to welcome back Aaron Sagonovich also, who asked a prior question back to PennantPark as a research analyst. That is another variable out there, the debt maturities and what the rates are going to be at the time as we get closer to the maturity. That is a variable we have to consider. Again, we are hoping we can get some significant equity rotation and rotate the cash into yield and look at where we stand at that point in time and adjust accordingly. You are right to point that out. That is a variable out there.

Speaker #5: Who has the prior question back to Pennant Park? As a research analyst, look, that's another variable out there: the debt maturities. And what the rates are going to be at the time as we get closer to maturity.

Speaker #5: So, you know, that’s a variable we have to consider. Again, we’re hoping we can get some significant equity rotation and rotate the cash into yield, and look at where we stand at that point in time and adjust accordingly.

Speaker #5: So, but you're right to point that out. That is a variable out there.

Speaker #7: And just a follow-up on that note, is using the Trust credit facility to refinance these notes a possibility? Just given we’ll have a talk from the administration about pressuring the Fed to reduce rates.

Robert Dodd: To follow up on that note, is using the Truist credit facility to refinance these notes a possibility, just given a lot of the talk from the administration about pressuring the Fed to reduce rates?

Speaker #5: Yeah. Look, we have a very attractive facility with Trust. We're constantly talking to them and other lenders about our liability stack. We're trying to match our liability stack to the assets and make sure they make sense.

Art Penn: Yeah, look, we have a very attractive facility with Truist. We are constantly talking to them and other lenders about our liability stack. We are trying to match our liability stack to the assets and make sure they make sense. There are different ways to fund the operations, whether it be credit facility, bonds, securitization. We have used securitization well in the past, the JV. So we have a number of different tools to finance the deal flow. We want to remain matched and prudent about the amount of leverage and the type of leverage that we put against the assets.

Speaker #5: You know there are different ways to fund operations, whether it be a credit facility, bonds, or securitization. We have done securitization well in the past. The JV.

Speaker #5: So, we have a number of different tools to finance the deal flow, and we want to remain matched and prudent about the amount of leverage and the type of leverage that we put against the assets.

Speaker #10: Thank you for taking my questions.

Robert Dodd: Okay. Thank you for taking my questions.

Speaker #5: Thank you, Chris.

Art Penn: Thank you, Chris.

Speaker #4: And our next question will come from Casey Alexander with Compass Point.

Event Specialist: Our next question will come from Casey Alexander with Compass Point.

Speaker #7: Yeah, good afternoon, Arthur. I was reading a summary of the transcript of the PFLT call, and there was an entry that said merging the BDCs remains an option post-equity rotation resolution in P&T.

Brian McKenna: Yeah, good afternoon, Art. I was reading actually a summary of the transcript of the PennantPark Floating Rate Capital call. There was an entry there that said merging the BDCs remains an option post-equity rotation resolution in PennantPark Investment Corporation. My question is that if you throw the covenants out of the portfolio and don't include the equity from PennantPark Senior Secured Loan Fund, the equity of PennantPark Investment Corporation is 27% of the total portfolio. For that merger to make sense, what percent would you have to get that down to so that it wouldn't be highly diluted for PennantPark Floating Rate Capital shareholders?

Speaker #7: Which to my question is that if you throw the governments out of the portfolio and don't include the equity from PSLF, so the equity of P&&T is 27 percent of the total portfolio.

Speaker #7: To make that merger make sense, what percentage would you have to get that down to so that it wouldn't be highly diluted for PFLT shareholders?

Speaker #5: Yeah. Look, I think our still our long-term target for equity, excluding JV equity, is about 10 percent, which is similar to kind of where we are in the PFLT portfolio.

Art Penn: Yeah, look, I think still our long-term target for equity, excluding JV equity, is about 10%, which is similar to kind of where we are in the PFLT portfolio. I think it's 8% or 9%, something like that. So that would be more normalized. And again, I answered the question of the Brian McKenna's question he asked every quarter. I answered the same way, which is all things are always on the table. We never say there's no options. But I said, and which I always say is we've got to, either way, we've got to normalize the PNNT portfolio, whatever we do. So that's still the goal, and that's what we're focused on. Hopefully, we can execute on that, and then we'll come up for air and look at what we do.

Speaker #5: I think it's 8% or 9%, something like that. So that would be in a more normalized... And again, I answered the question posed to Brian McKenna.

Speaker #5: He asked every quarter, you know, and I answered the same way, which is all things are always on the table. We never say there are no options, but I said, which I always say, is we've got to, you know, either way, we've got to normalize the P&T portfolio.

Speaker #5: Whatever we do, that's still the goal. And that's what we're focused on. Hopefully, we can execute on that, and then we'll come up for air and look at what we do.

Speaker #7: Yeah. My second question is, are you are you still doing equity co-invests? And if so, is it that just exacerbating the problem or or are you you know just doing straight debt deals now and and and using that to help you reduce the amount of equity in the portfolio?

Brian McKenna: My second question is, are you still doing equity co-investments? If so, is that just exacerbating the problem, or are you just doing straight debt deals now and using that to help you reduce the amount of equity in the portfolio?

Speaker #5: Yeah. So look, the the equity co-invest is is a deal by deal kind of analysis. We If we do the debt, we usually get an option to look at the equity.

Art Penn: The equity co-invest is a deal-by-deal kind of analysis. If we do the debt, we usually get an option to look at the equity. We then analyze the equity separately. If it makes sense, we think as an investment, we will continue to do it. We have had a very good long-term track record, as we have stated. The equity-heavy nature of the PNNT portfolio today is really conversions of debt to equity, not the equity co-invest portfolio. The equity co-invest portfolio, we are investing 1, 2, 3 million, whatever it is, as a tag. It has been a very strong, 2 times MOIC, 25%, 26% IRR over 18 years. Granted, sometimes the rotation is quicker. Sometimes it is slower. It has been slower recently. But it has been a good addition to all of these portfolios. Each individual equity investment needs to stand on its own two feet.

Speaker #5: We then analyze the equity separately, and if it makes sense as an investment, we will continue to do it. We've had a very good long-term track record, as we stated.

Speaker #5: The equity-heavy nature of the P&T portfolio today is really conversions of debt to equity, not the equity co-invest portfolio, right? So, the equity co-invest portfolio, we're investing $1 million, $2 million, $3 million, whatever it is, as a tag.

Speaker #5: It's been a very strong, you know, two times MOIC, 25 to 26 percent IRR over 18 years. Granted, sometimes the rotation is quicker; you know, sometimes it's slower.

Speaker #5: It's been slower recently. But it's been a good it's been a good addition to all of these portfolios. But each individual equity investment needs to stand on its own two feet and so far it has.

Art Penn: So far, it has. The chunkier positions have been conversions. On those situations, we are trying to get better. Obviously, those were debt investments that did not work out well by definition. We make mistakes from time to time, and we try to learn from those mistakes and get better. Most of these chunkier positions were kind of longstanding deals that we made long ago. Our underwriting track record in the last number of years has been very, very strong if you look across the platform. It may take a little while to get some of these chunky equity positions rotated. We will do our best. That is our job as fiduciaries for our investors. We are going to do everything we possibly can to maximize shareholder value.

Speaker #5: And then again, the chunkier positions have been conversions. In those situations, we’re trying to get better. Obviously, those were debt investments that did not work out well.

Speaker #5: By definition, we make mistakes from time to time, and we try to learn from those mistakes and get better. Most of these chunkier positions were kind of long-standing deals that we made long ago.

Speaker #5: Our underwriting track record over the last several years has been very, very strong if you look across the platform. So, you know, it may take a little while to get some of these chunky equity positions rotated.

Speaker #5: We will do our best. That's our job as fiduciaries for our investors, and we're going to do everything we possibly can to maximize shareholder value.

Speaker #8: Great. Thank you.

Robert Dodd: Right. Thank you.

Speaker #4: And that does conclude the question-and-answer session. I'll now turn the conference back over to Mr. Arthur Penn.

Event Specialist: That does conclude the question and answer session. I will now turn the conference back over to Mr. Art Penn.

Speaker #5: Well, thank you, everybody, for their time today and for listening to the story. A reminder that our next quarterly earnings call is at 10:00 AM, so we'll be reporting a little later in the quarter, probably shortly before Thanksgiving, around mid-November.

Art Penn: I want to thank everybody for their time today and listening to the story. A reminder that our next quarterly earning is at 10K. We will be reporting a little later in the quarter, probably shortly before Thanksgiving, kind of mid-November. So look forward to speaking to folks then. Again, thank you for your time today.

Speaker #5: So, I look forward to speaking to folks then. And again, thank you for your time today.

Event Specialist: Thank you. That does conclude today's conference. We do thank you for your participation. Have an excellent day.