Speaker #1: Good morning, everyone. Good afternoon. Depending on where you are, maybe even good night. Welcome to the Q4 full-year 2025 financial results press conference. You may not see that when you're dialing in online and watching us online, but we are actually in a different location than we were last year.
Speaker #1: Today, we host the press conference in our training center in the ASML Academy. That is located at the Brainport Industrial Campus in Eindhoven.
Speaker #1: And this is actually the place where we plan our expansion in the Netherlands. So we thought it would be a good idea to invite everyone here in the room to see what our new location is going to look like.
Speaker #1: There's nothing there to see yet, but this is where we are planning our expansion. And Christophe will talk more about that later in the presentation.
Speaker #1: My name is Monique Mols. I'm Head of Media Relations. So, welcome to you all. I'm really happy to see that there are people in the room and people online.
Speaker #1: For those online, if you have a question later on, you can fill out the form on the website, and we will take your question from here.
Speaker #1: If you're in the room, my colleague Mark will walk around with a microphone and pick up your question. Oh, sorry. So, this is our annual results.
Speaker #1: Forward-looking statements for those who like it. So again, we are here at the Academy. We have several of those training centers all around the world.
Speaker #1: Here, we have quite a big center where, on average, 400 employees come here every day to get training. So they actually work on the machines that our customers have in their fabs.
Speaker #1: And every year, we have about 26,500 people coming here to train. So this is a very important location for us. And we're very happy that we can host a press conference here today.
Speaker #1: With that, I'm not the only one who's going to talk to you today, of course. I have our CEO, Christophe Fouquet, and our CFO, Roger Dassen.
Speaker #1: And they will talk you through the numbers, through developments, and everything that's happening at ASML. So I would like to invite on stage Christophe.
Speaker #1: Fouquet. Thank you very
Speaker #2: Thank you very much, Monique. So, Roger will be the one doing the good numbers later on. As you have noticed, we finished the year very, very, very strong, with a record quarter, record year, record booking.
Speaker #2: And this is basically a sign of the direction this industry is taking. We are very happy, of course, with the work the ASML team has done, being able to execute on such a big quarter in Q4 and also prepare us, basically, for 2026.
Speaker #2: So, a lot of good news today. And again, Roger, we'll get into the numbers. I'd like to say that we welcome also that clarification in the course of 2025.
Speaker #2: You have seen that sometimes the business was still a bit uncertain; the last three months have really clarified, basically, at least the horizon for 2026, and most probably a bit beyond that.
Speaker #2: So, before we go into the numbers, I'd like to provide you some context about what's happening in the industry—what is basically driving this type of news today.
Speaker #2: And, of course, the very first thing is AI. You have been hearing about AI already for a couple of years. You have heard major, major announcements about AI infrastructure.
Speaker #2: I think from the very beginning, in ASML, we have been a believer that AI will be a big thing. And this is true because, as we saw before, any major application moving forward will not only use semiconductors, but it will also use AI.
Speaker #2: And I've put a few examples of those applications on this slide. It's pretty much everything you can think about when it comes to technology, when it comes to the future of society.
Speaker #2: This will all rely on AI. If you look at the opportunity, this has been said also before, this will drive basically advanced technology, advanced logic, advanced DRAM.
Speaker #2: This will also basically drive the entire data infrastructure. And the effect AI can have on the overall GDP is pretty big. In fact, if you look at the US, even in 2025, AI was counting for a very large part of the growth.
Speaker #2: And we expect that basically to be applied to the entire worldwide GDP. So the opportunity is there. What was a bit odd was that we heard all those news.
Speaker #2: Something that has been frustrating for us for a while is investments. But basically, this went into capacity addition at our customer. And I think what the last three months have done is change that.
Speaker #2: We have seen our customer basically moving forward. They start to really believe in the sustainability of the AI demand. That’s true for memory. That’s true for logic.
Speaker #2: And as a result, they started to invest. They started to plan for capacity. And, of course, this will drive demand for our product at ASML.
Speaker #2: And when you look at the demand for our product, what's interesting with AI is that this basically touches on all products. Of course, AI is going to require very advanced chips.
Speaker #2: And this is going to drive EUV, for example. So, this year will be a big year for EUV. Roger will talk about that. It's going to drive advanced inspection tools.
Speaker #2: But at the same time, AI needs a lot of data generation, a lot of sensors. And this will still be created by the use of more mature technology, such as DPUV.
Speaker #2: So AI will have also this effect, basically, to really drive our entire product portfolio in the coming years. This is a bit of a summary of what our customers have told us.
Speaker #2: So, I talked already about the fact that they are more confident that AI is here to last, and therefore, they are going to invest.
Speaker #2: I think, in fact, for a lot of our customers, in 2026, capacity will mean market share. So we will see them very eager to get the capacity as quickly as possible.
Speaker #2: There's a few more good news when it comes to AI. AI also drives very advanced technology. This drives an increased use of EUV. And one of the things we've been talking in 2025 quite a bit is the fact basically that we have seen the number of layers of EUV increasing basically at our key customers.
Speaker #2: And this means, practically, that the overall litho intensity is going up, which means basically more use of our advanced lithography tools. 2026, you know, we expect, as you understand, as the numbers will show, an improvement of the business—a significant growth, especially on the advanced tools, EUV.
Speaker #2: I said before it will be a big year, and again, on the midterm, we expect that to continue. Long term, we stick basically to what we have told the market already several times, which is what we shared basically at our Capital Markets Day in November 2024.
Speaker #2: We still expect, for 2030, revenue between €44 and €60 billion, with a gross margin of 56 to 60%. Going a bit now to the effect of AI on the market.
Speaker #2: So this graph is showing a bit what AI will do. And what you see here basically is the growth of the different segments of semiconductors.
Speaker #2: At the bottom, you see the historical growth of memory logic, which is about 6%, 7% year on year. 6%, 7% year on year is pretty great already.
Speaker #2: There are many, many industries that will wish to see this kind of number. But what you see with AI is that when we look at advanced logic, when we look at advanced memory, the growth on those segments is going to be more than 20% year on year for the foreseeable future.
Monique Mols: Good morning, everyone. Good afternoon, depending on where you are, maybe even good night. Welcome to the Q4 full year 2025 financial results press conference. You may not see that when you're dialing in online and you're watching us online, but we are actually in a different location than we were last year. Today, we host the press conference in our training center in the ASML Academy, and that is located at the Brainport Industries Campus in Eindhoven. This is actually the place where we plan our expansion in the Netherlands, so we thought it would be a good idea to invite, you know, everyone here in the room to see what our new location is gonna look like.
Monique Mols: Good morning, everyone. Good afternoon, depending on where you are, maybe even good night. Welcome to the Q4 full year 2025 financial results press conference. You may not see that when you're dialing in online and you're watching us online, but we are actually in a different location than we were last year. Today, we host the press conference in our training center in the ASML Academy, and that is located at the Brainport Industries Campus in Eindhoven. This is actually the place where we plan our expansion in the Netherlands, so we thought it would be a good idea to invite, you know, everyone here in the room to see what our new location is gonna look like.
Speaker #2: And this is really what is going to drive, basically, more demand on lithography. Why is that? So, we've talked in the past a lot about Moore's Law, of course.
Speaker #2: And Moore's Law is a law that says that every couple of years, we need to double the number of transistors per chip. And that law has been true for many, many years for PC, for mobile applications.
Speaker #2: In 2010, the curve is far more aggressive. At AI, and this started to happen in—now, when you look at the most advanced AI product today, NVIDIA product, for example, the request is not to grow two times every two years, but in the last few years to grow sixteen times every two years.
Monique Mols: There's nothing there to see yet, but this is where we are planning our expansion, and Christophe will talk more about that later in the presentation. My name is Monique Mols. I'm Head of Media Relations, so welcome to you all. I'm really happy to see that there are people in the room and people online. For those online, if you have a question later on, you can fill out the form on the website, and we will take your question from here. If you're in the room, my colleague, Mark, will walk around with a microphone and pick up your question. Oh, sorry. So this is our annual results. Forward-looking statements for those who like it. So again, we are here at the Academy. We have several of those training centers all around the world.
There's nothing there to see yet, but this is where we are planning our expansion, and Christophe will talk more about that later in the presentation. My name is Monique Mols. I'm Head of Media Relations, so welcome to you all. I'm really happy to see that there are people in the room and people online. For those online, if you have a question later on, you can fill out the form on the website, and we will take your question from here. If you're in the room, my colleague, Mark, will walk around with a microphone and pick up your question. Oh, sorry. So this is our annual results. Forward-looking statements for those who like it. So again, we are here at the Academy. We have several of those training centers all around the world.
Speaker #2: So, you see a major acceleration, basically, of the need for silicon. And of course, we provide that in two different ways. We provide that with scaling.
Speaker #2: By making transistors smaller, we can put more transistors per chip. And this has been a good way, basically, to provide more transistors and follow Moore's Law for many, many years.
Speaker #2: But that's not enough anymore. And if you cannot put enough transistors per unit of area, per chip, then the only option will be to make more wafers.
Monique Mols: Here we have quite a big center, where on average, 400 employees come here every day to get a training. So they actually work on the machines that our customers have in their fabs. And every year, we have about 26,500 people coming here to train. So this is a very important location for us, and we're very happy that we can host a press conference here today. With that, I'm not the only one who's gonna talk to you today, of course. I have our CEO, Christophe Fouquet, and our CFO, Roger Dassen, and they will talk you through the numbers, through the developments, and everything that's happening at ASML. So I would like to invite on stage Christophe Fouquet.
Here we have quite a big center, where on average, 400 employees come here every day to get a training. So they actually work on the machines that our customers have in their fabs. And every year, we have about 26,500 people coming here to train. So this is a very important location for us, and we're very happy that we can host a press conference here today. With that, I'm not the only one who's gonna talk to you today, of course. I have our CEO, Christophe Fouquet, and our CFO, Roger Dassen, and they will talk you through the numbers, through the developments, and everything that's happening at ASML. So I would like to invite on stage Christophe Fouquet.
Speaker #2: And that's a bit what we see happening with AI. So, the most advanced AI applications are going to drive up volume. And this is why, when we look at DRAM customers today, when we look at logic customers today, they are building mega fabs—some of them are talking about hypercycle—because they have to be able basically to also provide this volume to the market.
Speaker #2: So just to illustrate that, I pick one example that I picked from NVIDIA, because all of you are, of course, very much aware of what's happening there.
Speaker #2: Today, on the Blackwell system, you need about two and a half wafers to create the product. If you look at 2027 on the Revit product, this number will go up to 10 wafers.
Christophe Fouquet: Thank you very much, Monique. So Roger will be the one doing the good numbers later on. As you have noticed, we finished the year very, very, very strong with a record quarter, record year, record booking, and this is basically a sign of the direction this industry is taking. We are very happy, of course, with the work the ASML team has done, being able to execute on such a big quarter in Q4, and also prepare us basically for 2026. So a lot of good news today, and again, Roger will get into the number. I'd like to say that, you know, we welcome also that clarification. You know, in the course of 2025, we have seen that sometimes the business was still a bit uncertain.
Christophe Fouquet: Thank you very much, Monique. So Roger will be the one doing the good numbers later on. As you have noticed, we finished the year very, very, very strong with a record quarter, record year, record booking, and this is basically a sign of the direction this industry is taking. We are very happy, of course, with the work the ASML team has done, being able to execute on such a big quarter in Q4, and also prepare us basically for 2026. So a lot of good news today, and again, Roger will get into the number. I'd like to say that, you know, we welcome also that clarification. You know, in the course of 2025, we have seen that sometimes the business was still a bit uncertain.
Speaker #2: So, to provide the same product to their customers, NVIDIA will need four times more wafers than today. And this is one of the reasons why, again, we will see capacity extension driven, again, by this type of application.
Speaker #2: And that's what you see here. And this is, again, I would say, a bit of a new dynamic we have in our market. AI, by this acceleration of the need for performance, of power reduction, is going to drive both volume and technology a lot harder than any technology before.
Speaker #2: So what does it mean for technology? EUV is key. 2026 is going to be a good year for EUV. We are looking at more shipments.
Christophe Fouquet: The last three months have really clarified, basically, at least, the horizon for 2026, and most probably a bit beyond that. So before we go into the numbers, I'd like to provide you some context about what's happening in the industry, what is driving, basically, this type of news today. And of course, the very first thing is AI. You have been hearing about AI already for a couple of years. You have heard major, major announcements about AI infrastructure. I think from the very beginning in ASML, we have been a believer that AI will be a big thing. And this is true because, as with semi before, any major application moving forward will not only use semiconductor, but it will also use AI. And I've put a few examples of those applications on this slide.
The last three months have really clarified, basically, at least, the horizon for 2026, and most probably a bit beyond that. So before we go into the numbers, I'd like to provide you some context about what's happening in the industry, what is driving, basically, this type of news today. And of course, the very first thing is AI. You have been hearing about AI already for a couple of years. You have heard major, major announcements about AI infrastructure. I think from the very beginning in ASML, we have been a believer that AI will be a big thing. And this is true because, as with semi before, any major application moving forward will not only use semiconductor, but it will also use AI. And I've put a few examples of those applications on this slide.
Speaker #2: And this despite the fact that we have increased the productivity of our tool by more than 40%. So we're going to ship a lot of capacity of EUV this year.
Speaker #2: If you look at it historically, we have already been adding quite a bit of capacity. So the capacity added of EUV in the last few years has been, on average, 25% year-on-year growth, which is quite significant.
Speaker #2: So, we have seen all our customers basically already adopting this. It was logic first, then DRAM. But we expect to see even more moving forward.
Speaker #2: Then we have RNA. And RNA, of course, is not going to be the tool that provides the capacity of EUV in 2026 or 2027. But that's the tool that will enable our customers to shift to even more advanced technology around 2028 or 2029.
Christophe Fouquet: It's pretty much everything you can think about when it comes to technology, when it comes to the future of society; this will all rely on AI. If you look at the opportunity, this has been said also before; this will drive basically advanced technology, advanced logic, advanced DRAM. This will also basically drive the entire data infrastructure. And the effect AI can have on the overall GDP is pretty big. In fact, if you look at the US, even in 2025, AI was accounting for a very large part of the growth, and we expect that basically to be applied to the entire worldwide GDP. So the opportunity is there.
It's pretty much everything you can think about when it comes to technology, when it comes to the future of society; this will all rely on AI. If you look at the opportunity, this has been said also before; this will drive basically advanced technology, advanced logic, advanced DRAM. This will also basically drive the entire data infrastructure. And the effect AI can have on the overall GDP is pretty big. In fact, if you look at the US, even in 2025, AI was accounting for a very large part of the growth, and we expect that basically to be applied to the entire worldwide GDP. So the opportunity is there.
Speaker #2: And that's important for DRAM, that's important for logic, and it's important for AI because, as I said before, AI is going to be looking for more advanced chips with lower power consumption, and RNA is going to play into that very strongly.
Speaker #2: So, good progress on RNA in the last few months. Our customers are still qualifying the tools. This takes a bit of time. The results are good.
Speaker #2: This year is going to be used to prepare a bit for insertion. And again, if we look at 2027, 2028, we are going to see the first product being manufactured using some RNA system.
Speaker #2: Deep UV remains very important. As I said, it's not all about advanced semiconductors. As you know, a lot of technology still requires deep UV.
Christophe Fouquet: What was a bit, I would say, frustrating for us for a while, is that where we heard all those news, we heard about all those investment, but basically, this was not yet translating into capacity addition at our customer. I think what the last three months have done is change that. We have seen our customer basically moving forward. They start to really believe in the sustainability of the AI demand. That's true for memory, that's true for logic. And as a result, they started to invest, they started to plan for capacity, and of course, this will drive demand for our product at ASML. And when you look at the demand for our product, what's interesting with AI is that this basically touch on all product. Of course, AI is going to require very advanced chips, and this is going to drive EUV, for example.
What was a bit, I would say, frustrating for us for a while, is that where we heard all those news, we heard about all those investment, but basically, this was not yet translating into capacity addition at our customer. I think what the last three months have done is change that. We have seen our customer basically moving forward. They start to really believe in the sustainability of the AI demand. That's true for memory, that's true for logic. And as a result, they started to invest, they started to plan for capacity, and of course, this will drive demand for our product at ASML. And when you look at the demand for our product, what's interesting with AI is that this basically touch on all product. Of course, AI is going to require very advanced chips, and this is going to drive EUV, for example.
Speaker #2: So we continue to drive the roadmap, both on immersion—where we have launched our 2150, which basically gives us sub-nanometer accuracy—and more than 300 wafers per hour.
Speaker #2: Productivity is important. Productivity is, of course, a way to get capacity. So we continue to drive that on immersion. I think the example of the NXT:870B, which is a carafe system, is even more spectacular because there we have been capable to achieve more than 400 wafers per hour.
Speaker #2: And that tool today is creating a lot of interest with our customers because productivity, again, is capacity. We talked also last quarter about us starting to help our customers with what we call 3D integration.
Christophe Fouquet: So this year will be a big year for EUV, or we'll talk about that. It's going to drive advanced inspection tool, but at the same time, AI needs a lot of data generation, a lot of sensor, and this will be still created by the use of more mature technology, such as DUV. So AI will have also this, effect, basically, to really drive our entire product portfolio in the coming years. This is a bit of a summary of, what our customer have told us. So I talked already about the fact that they are more confident that AI is here to last, and therefore, they are going to invest.
So this year will be a big year for EUV, or we'll talk about that. It's going to drive advanced inspection tool, but at the same time, AI needs a lot of data generation, a lot of sensor, and this will be still created by the use of more mature technology, such as DUV. So AI will have also this, effect, basically, to really drive our entire product portfolio in the coming years. This is a bit of a summary of, what our customer have told us. So I talked already about the fact that they are more confident that AI is here to last, and therefore, they are going to invest.
Speaker #2: So I told you, when you cannot put all the transistors in one chip, you just make more chips and bring them together. With 3D integration, we have our first system at the TwinScan XT:260 that was shipped last quarter, with a lot of interest from our customers.
Speaker #2: For us, this is the first product looking at this new market opportunity. And we will continue to work with our customers, basically, to define more products moving forward to support them also on that segment.
Speaker #2: A few words on metrology and inspection. So, we don't always talk about metrology and inspection. But when you drive technology, yield becomes very, very important.
Christophe Fouquet: I think, in fact, for a lot of our customer, in 2026, capacity will mean, will mean market share, so we will see them very eager to get the capacity as quickly as possible. There's a few more good news when it comes to AI. AI also drive very advanced technology. This drive an increased use of EUV, and one of the things we've been talking in 2025 quite a bit, is the fact, basically, that we have seen the number of layers of EUV increasing, basically, at our key customer. And this means practically, that the overall litho intensity is going up, which means basically more use of our advanced lithography tool. 2026, you know, we expect, as you understand, as the number will show, an improvement of the business, a significant growth, especially on the advanced tool, EUV.
I think, in fact, for a lot of our customer, in 2026, capacity will mean, will mean market share, so we will see them very eager to get the capacity as quickly as possible. There's a few more good news when it comes to AI. AI also drive very advanced technology. This drive an increased use of EUV, and one of the things we've been talking in 2025 quite a bit, is the fact, basically, that we have seen the number of layers of EUV increasing, basically, at our key customer. And this means practically, that the overall litho intensity is going up, which means basically more use of our advanced lithography tool. 2026, you know, we expect, as you understand, as the number will show, an improvement of the business, a significant growth, especially on the advanced tool, EUV.
Speaker #2: And yield can be improved by doing more metrology and more inspection. So in 2025, we have seen our metrology inspection business going up by almost 30%, which is a major growth number.
Speaker #2: It has to do with the need for more metrology inspection. It has to do also with the quality of our product. In optical metrology for overlay, but also in e-BIM.
Speaker #2: And one of the products where we have seen quite some progress in 2025 is multibeam. Multibeam is going to provide EBIM inspection at higher speed and more fully in the next couple of years, really enabling our customers to move this technology to high-volume manufacturing.
Speaker #2: So, a lot of good progress there as well. Your whole heard about Mistral, I think back at the end of the summer, when we announced our collaboration, but also our investment in Mistral.
Christophe Fouquet: I said before, it will be a big year, and again, on the midterm, we expect that to continue. Long term, we stick basically to what we have told the market already several times, which is what we share basically at our capital market day in November of 2024. We still expect for 2030, revenue between EUR 44 and 60 billion, with a gross margin of 56% to 60%. Going a bit now to the effect of AI on the market. So this graph is showing a bit what AI will do. And what you see here, basically, is the growth of the different segments of semiconductors. At the bottom, you see the historical growth of memory logic, which is about 6 to 7% year-over-year. 6 to 7% year-over-year is pretty great already.
I said before, it will be a big year, and again, on the midterm, we expect that to continue. Long term, we stick basically to what we have told the market already several times, which is what we share basically at our capital market day in November of 2024. We still expect for 2030, revenue between EUR 44 and 60 billion, with a gross margin of 56% to 60%. Going a bit now to the effect of AI on the market. So this graph is showing a bit what AI will do. And what you see here, basically, is the growth of the different segments of semiconductors. At the bottom, you see the historical growth of memory logic, which is about 6 to 7% year-over-year. 6 to 7% year-over-year is pretty great already.
Speaker #2: The rationale there was to get AI into ASML and to get the very best people, the very best competence in ASML, in order to be able to first strengthen our core competencies.
Speaker #2: We're putting AI in our product to support the connected market, so we offer some of those capabilities to our customers and also create new forward. That's an opportunity, basically moving projects we are going to talk more about in '26, in '27.
Speaker #2: Making great progress with We are Mistral, our partner. Our teams are working very, very closely together to basically execute on each one of those points.
Christophe Fouquet: You know, there are many, many industry that will wish to see this kind of number. But what you see with AI is that when we look at advanced logic, when we looked at advanced memory, the growth on those segments is going to be more than 20% year on year for the foreseeable future. And this is really what is going to drive, basically, more demand on lithography. Why is that? So we've talked in the past a lot about Moore's Law, of course. And Moore's Law is a law that say that every couple of years, we need to double the number of transistor per chips. And that law has been true for many, many years for PC, for mobile application. Now, when you look at AI, and this started to happen in 2010, the curve is far more aggressive.
You know, there are many, many industry that will wish to see this kind of number. But what you see with AI is that when we look at advanced logic, when we looked at advanced memory, the growth on those segments is going to be more than 20% year on year for the foreseeable future. And this is really what is going to drive, basically, more demand on lithography. Why is that? So we've talked in the past a lot about Moore's Law, of course. And Moore's Law is a law that say that every couple of years, we need to double the number of transistor per chips. And that law has been true for many, many years for PC, for mobile application. Now, when you look at AI, and this started to happen in 2010, the curve is far more aggressive.
Speaker #2: Going a bit into some of the other things we are very, very proud of at ASML—this is our engagement in the community. We have been spending, I would say, both the time, talent, money in order to work together with the community on a few very important topics.
Speaker #2: The first one is mobility. Well, we are here today. As you know, this is also close to our next campus, which I will explain in a minute.
Speaker #2: We plan to have a groundbreaking this year, in a few months. We want to continue, basically, to work with the Brentport community to improve the infrastructure, because we are very much aware also that as we grow, we can sometimes create more headaches.
Christophe Fouquet: When you look at the most advanced AI product today, NVIDIA product, for example, the request is not to grow 2 times every 2 years, but in the last few years, to grow 16 times every 2 years. So you see a major acceleration, basically, of the need for silicon. And of course, we provide that in two different way. We provide that with scaling, you know, by making transistors smaller, we can put more transistor per chips.... And this has been a good way, basically, to provide more transistor and follow Moore's Law for many, many years, but that's not enough anymore. And if you cannot put enough transistor per unit of area, per chips, then the only option will be to make more wafers. And that's a bit what we see happening with AI. So the most advanced AI application are going to drive up volume.
When you look at the most advanced AI product today, NVIDIA product, for example, the request is not to grow 2 times every 2 years, but in the last few years, to grow 16 times every 2 years. So you see a major acceleration, basically, of the need for silicon. And of course, we provide that in two different way. We provide that with scaling, you know, by making transistors smaller, we can put more transistor per chips.... And this has been a good way, basically, to provide more transistor and follow Moore's Law for many, many years, but that's not enough anymore. And if you cannot put enough transistor per unit of area, per chips, then the only option will be to make more wafers. And that's a bit what we see happening with AI. So the most advanced AI application are going to drive up volume.
Speaker #2: And it's very important to address that. So we have major investment there also, of course, for the Beethoven program. Affordable housing has been quite some press.
Speaker #2: In 2025, about some of the progress we have done there. This is ongoing now for a few years. This remains very, very important, and we will continue to invest.
Speaker #2: You see the number there. I don't need to stress it, to basically create more housing. We also understand that this is a broader challenge across the Netherlands.
Speaker #2: And we definitely want to do our part helping the community here—culture. So, we are very proud to be one of the, I would say, initial partners for the future RAC Museum here in Heinoven.
Speaker #2: We love the city of Heinoven. We love this place. But sometimes we feel that if we can bring a bit more culture, a bit more activity, I think this will help people to enjoy it even more, to attract even more people moving forward.
Christophe Fouquet: This is why when we look at DRAM customer today, when we look at Logic customer today, they are building mega fabs. Some of them are talking about hypercycle, because they have to be able, basically, to also provide this volume to the market. So just to illustrate that, I pick one example, and I picked it from NVIDIA, because all of you are, of course, very much aware of what's happening there. Today, on the Blackwell system, you need about 2.5 wafers to create the product. If you look at 2027 on the Rubin product, this number will go up to 10 wafers. So to provide the same product to their customer, NVIDIA will need four times more wafer than today.
This is why when we look at DRAM customer today, when we look at Logic customer today, they are building mega fabs. Some of them are talking about hypercycle, because they have to be able, basically, to also provide this volume to the market. So just to illustrate that, I pick one example, and I picked it from NVIDIA, because all of you are, of course, very much aware of what's happening there. Today, on the Blackwell system, you need about 2.5 wafers to create the product. If you look at 2027 on the Rubin product, this number will go up to 10 wafers. So to provide the same product to their customer, NVIDIA will need four times more wafer than today.
Speaker #2: That's also why we stay very committed to the PSV football club, as you know. But this, we thought, was a very, very nice initiative from the city of Eindhoven.
Speaker #2: And we really wanted to be there. Finally, education—you know that we have a long-standing relationship with TU University here in Eindhoven. I could extend that to many other universities across the Netherlands.
Speaker #2: This is key. We want to develop talent that will be able to work in semiconductor moving forward, and we will continue to do that, of course, very strongly.
Speaker #2: One last word. We need to continue to grow. I will come back to some of the other announcements we had today about our focus on innovation and engineering.
Christophe Fouquet: And this is one of the reason why, again, we will see capacity extension driven again by this type of application. And that's what you see here, and this is, again, I would say, a bit of a new dynamic we have in our market. AI, by this acceleration of the need for performance, of power reduction, is going to drive both volume and technology a lot harder than any technology before. So what does it mean for technology? EUV is key. 2026 is going to be a good year for EUV. We are looking at more shipments, and this, despite the fact that we have increased the productivity of our tool by more than 40%, so we're going to ship a lot of capacity of EUV, this year.
And this is one of the reason why, again, we will see capacity extension driven again by this type of application. And that's what you see here, and this is, again, I would say, a bit of a new dynamic we have in our market. AI, by this acceleration of the need for performance, of power reduction, is going to drive both volume and technology a lot harder than any technology before. So what does it mean for technology? EUV is key. 2026 is going to be a good year for EUV. We are looking at more shipments, and this, despite the fact that we have increased the productivity of our tool by more than 40%, so we're going to ship a lot of capacity of EUV, this year.
Speaker #2: At the same time, we see more room to grow, because we need to invest in customer service. We need to invest in demand for our products.
Speaker #2: Therefore, our footprint needs to continue and manufacturing. We need to invest in space. So last year, we opened two major sites—one in Korea and one in the US.
Speaker #2: And that intends to support basically our activity here. The big event in 2026 will be the groundbreaking of the big campus, which is our second big campus in the community.
Speaker #2: We'll do that mostly in May and June. And I'm sure you will be invited to join us, with the idea that we can already start moving people as early as 2028.
Speaker #2: So, this will be very good for people. It will be very good also to debottleneck a bit the campus in Veldhoven, of course. And this is a project, as you know, that is very, very important for ASML.
Christophe Fouquet: If you look at it historically, we have already been adding quite a bit of capacity. So the capacity added of EUV in the last few years have been in average 25% year-on-year growth, which is quite significant. So we have seen all our customer basically already adopting this. It was Logic first, then DRAM, but we expect basically to see that even more moving forward. Then we have High-NA, and High-NA, of course, is not going to be the tool that provide the capacity of EUV in 2026, 2027, but that's the tool that will enable our customer to shift to even more advanced technology around 2028, 2029.
If you look at it historically, we have already been adding quite a bit of capacity. So the capacity added of EUV in the last few years have been in average 25% year-on-year growth, which is quite significant. So we have seen all our customer basically already adopting this. It was Logic first, then DRAM, but we expect basically to see that even more moving forward. Then we have High-NA, and High-NA, of course, is not going to be the tool that provide the capacity of EUV in 2026, 2027, but that's the tool that will enable our customer to shift to even more advanced technology around 2028, 2029.
Speaker #2: This is my update. I will come back in a bit to talk a bit about, again, the action we are taking on our engineering team to strengthen our innovation.
Speaker #2: In the meantime, I'll give a chance to Roger to give us those very nice numbers. Thank you. Thank you, Christophe. And good morning, good afternoon, everyone.
Speaker #2: So indeed, I will present the financials for '25 and the outlook. Christophe said it. Clearly, Q4 2025—a record quarter by any standard. It was a record quarter in terms of sales.
Christophe Fouquet: That's important for DRAM, that's important for Logic, and it's important for AI, because as I said before, AI is going to be looking for more advanced chips with lower power consumption, and High-NA is going to play into that very strongly. So good progress on High-NA in the last few months. Our customer are still qualifying the tools. This takes a bit of time. The results are good. This year is going to be used to prepare a bit for insertion, and again, you know, if we look at 2027, 2028, we are going to see the first product being manufactured using some High-NA system. DUV remains very important. As I said, you know, it's not all about advanced semiconductor.
That's important for DRAM, that's important for Logic, and it's important for AI, because as I said before, AI is going to be looking for more advanced chips with lower power consumption, and High-NA is going to play into that very strongly. So good progress on High-NA in the last few months. Our customer are still qualifying the tools. This takes a bit of time. The results are good. This year is going to be used to prepare a bit for insertion, and again, you know, if we look at 2027, 2028, we are going to see the first product being manufactured using some High-NA system. DUV remains very important. As I said, you know, it's not all about advanced semiconductor.
Speaker #2: It was a record quarter in terms of order intake. It was a record quarter in terms of the cash flow generation, on the back of all the good developments that Christophe just shared with you.
Speaker #2: So, I won't call them out here, but just looking at the quarter, it's pretty clear that it was indeed a very strong quarter. If we look at 2025, and if we look at the total business for ASML, we ended the year with €32.7 billion in net revenue, gross margin 52.8%, and you see the key elements in here.
Speaker #2: Net income of €9.6 billion, and an EPS, earnings per share, of close to €25—25 euros per ordinary share. All in all, a very, very strong year, in which we also paid back and returned quite some money to our shareholders.
Christophe Fouquet: As you know, a lot of technologies still require DUV, so we continue to drive the roadmap, both on immersion, where we have launched our NXT:2150i, which basically give us sub-nanometer accuracy and more than 300 wafers per hour. Productivity is important. Productivity is, of course, a way to get capacity, so we continue to drive that on immersion. I think the example of the NXT:870B, which is a KrF system, is even more spectacular, because there we have been capable to achieve more than 400 wafers per hour. And that tool today is creating a lot of interest at our customer, because productivity, again, is capacity. We talked also last quarter about us starting to help our customer with what we call 3D integration.
As you know, a lot of technologies still require DUV, so we continue to drive the roadmap, both on immersion, where we have launched our NXT:2150i, which basically give us sub-nanometer accuracy and more than 300 wafers per hour. Productivity is important. Productivity is, of course, a way to get capacity, so we continue to drive that on immersion. I think the example of the NXT:870B, which is a KrF system, is even more spectacular, because there we have been capable to achieve more than 400 wafers per hour. And that tool today is creating a lot of interest at our customer, because productivity, again, is capacity. We talked also last quarter about us starting to help our customer with what we call 3D integration.
Speaker #2: And also, we're able to do the participation in Mistral that Christophe just alluded to. Very clearly, EUV was the main driver behind it. And you will see it in the pie chart that I will share with you in a moment.
Speaker #2: It will clarify that it is particularly the leading technology that really contributed to the growth. So, both emergence and foremost, also EUV. So EUV grew 39% in comparison to last year, to 2024.
Speaker #2: A mix of both more tools, significantly higher sales price of the tools, because most of the tools that we sold—most of the low-NA tools that we sold in 2025—were 3,800 tools, which, as you know, saw an increase in productivity from 160 wafers per hour to 220 wafers per hour.
Christophe Fouquet: So I told you, you know, when you cannot put all the transistor in one chips, you just make more chips and bring them together with 3D integration. We have our first system, the TWINSCAN XT:260, that was shipped last quarter. Lot of interest from our customer. For us, this is the first product looking at this new market opportunity, and we will continue to work with our customer, basically, to define more product moving forward to support them also on that segment. A few words on metrology and inspection. So we don't talk always about metrology inspection, but when you drive technology, yield become very, very important, and yield can be improved by doing more metrology and more inspection.
So I told you, you know, when you cannot put all the transistor in one chips, you just make more chips and bring them together with 3D integration. We have our first system, the TWINSCAN XT:260, that was shipped last quarter. Lot of interest from our customer. For us, this is the first product looking at this new market opportunity, and we will continue to work with our customer, basically, to define more product moving forward to support them also on that segment. A few words on metrology and inspection. So we don't talk always about metrology inspection, but when you drive technology, yield become very, very important, and yield can be improved by doing more metrology and more inspection.
Speaker #2: And, of course, a commensurate increase in the sales price. And obviously, we also had the recognition of a number of EXE tools, High NA tools.
Speaker #2: So it's in that combination that really EUV was the big driver of growth for us this year. Big moment indeed, and Christophe showed it as well.
Speaker #2: The revenue recognition of the first 5,200B is really a big moment for us, because that is the high-volume manufacturing tool on high NA.
Christophe Fouquet: So in 2025, we have seen our metrology inspection business going up by almost 30%, which is a major growth number. It has to do with the need for more metrology inspection. It has to do also with the quality of our product in optical, metrology for overlay, but also in E-beam. And one of the product where we have seen quite some progress in 2025 is multi-beam. Multi-beam is going to provide E-beam inspection at higher speed, and most probably in the next, I would say, couple of years, really enable our customer to move this technology to high volume manufacturing. So a lot of good progress there as well.
So in 2025, we have seen our metrology inspection business going up by almost 30%, which is a major growth number. It has to do with the need for more metrology inspection. It has to do also with the quality of our product in optical, metrology for overlay, but also in E-beam. And one of the product where we have seen quite some progress in 2025 is multi-beam. Multi-beam is going to provide E-beam inspection at higher speed, and most probably in the next, I would say, couple of years, really enable our customer to move this technology to high volume manufacturing. So a lot of good progress there as well.
Speaker #2: And the fact that we were able to not just ship it, but also get it installed and get accepted by the customer, and the customer is really looking at putting that tool into high-volume manufacturing for its leading nodes, is a very significant moment for the company.
Speaker #2: DPV went down a bit, a decrease of 6%. If you look at the geography, you would see that most of the decline actually comes from China.
Speaker #2: So that's where most of the decline on DPV was. Immersion is still quiet, but particularly on the display, it was lower than it was in 2020.
Speaker #2: But there, the 3D integration market with the introduction of the 260, obviously, was another big moment. Application very strong—Christophe alluded to it. 28% increase right there with the need for more process control for customers at the leading nodes.
Christophe Fouquet: You all heard about Mistral, I think, back in the end of the summer when we announced our collaboration, but also our investment in Mistral. The rationale there was to get AI in ASML, and to get the very best people, the very best competence in ASML, in order to be able to first strengthen our core competencies, read, putting AI in our product, support the connected market, to offer some of those capability to our customers, and also create new opportunity, basically, moving forward. That's a project we are going to talk more about in 2026, in 2027. We are making great progress with Mistral, our partner. Our teams are working very, very closely together to basically execute on each one of those points.
You all heard about Mistral, I think, back in the end of the summer when we announced our collaboration, but also our investment in Mistral. The rationale there was to get AI in ASML, and to get the very best people, the very best competence in ASML, in order to be able to first strengthen our core competencies, read, putting AI in our product, support the connected market, to offer some of those capability to our customers, and also create new opportunity, basically, moving forward. That's a project we are going to talk more about in 2026, in 2027. We are making great progress with Mistral, our partner. Our teams are working very, very closely together to basically execute on each one of those points.
Speaker #2: And finally, a very, very strong 26% increase in our installed base business, both on the back of service. Our installed base in EUV is obviously growing.
Speaker #2: Therefore, you see a continuous step-up of our service revenue from EUV, but also increased appetite in EUV upgrades. I'll come back to that later.
Speaker #2: This gives you some breakdowns, and I won't call them out all. But I think if you look at technology, it's interesting to see that the leading technology—so both EUV and immersion combined—give you 90% of our systems revenue.
Speaker #2: And I think that really speaks volumes, I think, about the shift that Christophe was also talking about—the shift to more and more leading nodes.
Christophe Fouquet: Going a bit into some of the other things we are very, very proud of at ASML, this is our engagement in the community. We have been spending, I would say, both the time, talent, money, in order to work together with the community on a few very important topics. The first one is mobility. While we are here today, as you know, this is also close to our next campus, which I will explain in a minute. We plan to have a groundbreaking this year, in a few months. We want to continue, basically, to work with the Brainport community to improve the infrastructure, because we are very much aware also that as we grow, we can sometimes create more headache, and it's very important to address that. So we have major investment there, also, of course, through the Beethoven program.
Going a bit into some of the other things we are very, very proud of at ASML, this is our engagement in the community. We have been spending, I would say, both the time, talent, money, in order to work together with the community on a few very important topics. The first one is mobility. While we are here today, as you know, this is also close to our next campus, which I will explain in a minute. We plan to have a groundbreaking this year, in a few months. We want to continue, basically, to work with the Brainport community to improve the infrastructure, because we are very much aware also that as we grow, we can sometimes create more headache, and it's very important to address that. So we have major investment there, also, of course, through the Beethoven program.
Speaker #2: Clearly represented here in the share of technology. In terms of end use, you see memory at 34%, logic at 66%. You see memory actually declining a little bit in terms of percentage.
Speaker #2: We actually see that flip in 2026. So, in 2026, you will see that memory becomes more and more important. In terms of regions, there's a lot to be said there.
Speaker #2: But I think China is still very, very big, but smaller than it was last time, both in terms of percentage of system sales and also in absolute numbers.
Speaker #2: You see a bit of a decline in the China market. We expect that decline to continue. As we said, we expect that the China business for this year to be around 20% of our total sales.
Speaker #2: So here it was 33% of total system sales. It was 29% in terms of total sales. We expect that 29% number to go down to approximately 20% this year.
Christophe Fouquet: Affordable housing, there's been quite some press in 2025 about some of the progress we have done there. This is ongoing now for a few years. This remains very, very important, and we will continue to invest. You see the number there, I don't need to stress it, to basically create more housing. We also understand that this is, you know, a broader challenge across the Netherlands, and we definitely want to do our part, helping the community here. Culture. So we are, you know, very proud to be one of the, I would say, initial partner for the future Rijksmuseum here in Eindhoven.
Affordable housing, there's been quite some press in 2025 about some of the progress we have done there. This is ongoing now for a few years. This remains very, very important, and we will continue to invest. You see the number there, I don't need to stress it, to basically create more housing. We also understand that this is, you know, a broader challenge across the Netherlands, and we definitely want to do our part, helping the community here. Culture. So we are, you know, very proud to be one of the, I would say, initial partner for the future Rijksmuseum here in Eindhoven.
Speaker #2: This gives you the net sales by end use over the years. I won't spend too much time on it. Just one fun fact—if you look at the installed base business at $8.2 billion, that comes pretty close to the total revenue for ASML in 2017.
Speaker #2: That just tells you how unbelievably rapidly the company grew. And the fact that we have such a big number in terms of installed base business obviously also provides a lot of resilience for the company.
Speaker #2: So, therefore, it's an important number for us to focus on and to continue to increase. This gives you the business over the years. So, if you just—if you take the four-year, so the four-year increase from 2021 to 2025, you would see that the company has grown 75% at the top line.
Christophe Fouquet: We love the city of Eindhoven, we love this place, but sometimes we feel that if we can bring a bit more culture, a bit more activity, I think this will help our people to enjoy it even more, to attract even more people moving forward. That's also why we stay very committed to the PSV football club, as you know. But this, we thought, was a very, very nice initiative from the city of Eindhoven, and we really wanted to, to be there. Finally, education. You know that we have a long-standing relationship with the TU Eindhoven here in Eindhoven. I could extend that to many other university across the Netherlands. This is key. We want to develop talent that will be able to work in semiconductor moving forward, and we will continue to do that, of course, very strongly.
We love the city of Eindhoven, we love this place, but sometimes we feel that if we can bring a bit more culture, a bit more activity, I think this will help our people to enjoy it even more, to attract even more people moving forward. That's also why we stay very committed to the PSV football club, as you know. But this, we thought, was a very, very nice initiative from the city of Eindhoven, and we really wanted to, to be there. Finally, education. You know that we have a long-standing relationship with the TU Eindhoven here in Eindhoven. I could extend that to many other university across the Netherlands. This is key. We want to develop talent that will be able to work in semiconductor moving forward, and we will continue to do that, of course, very strongly.
Speaker #2: You also see that R&D increases from €2.5 billion to €4.7 billion, which, of course, was absolutely critical in getting us prepared for all the beautiful products that were currently shipping to our customers.
Speaker #2: But I think it's also fair to acknowledge that this huge increase in R&D numbers has also driven some organizational complexity, which Christophe will talk about after my contribution.
Speaker #2: So this gives you the overview. And, as you see, earnings per share—an interesting number—rounded, 25. Twenty-five by 25 is something that you might easily recall on a go-forward basis.
Christophe Fouquet: One last word, we need to continue to grow. I will come back to some of the other announcement we had today about our focus on innovation and engineering. At the same time, we see more demand for our product, and therefore our footprint needs to continue to grow, because we need to invest in customer service, we need to invest in manufacturing, we need to invest in space. So last year, we opened two major sites, one in Korea, one in the US, and that intends to support basically our activity here. The big event in 2026 will be the groundbreaking of the big campus, which is our second big campus in the community.
One last word, we need to continue to grow. I will come back to some of the other announcement we had today about our focus on innovation and engineering. At the same time, we see more demand for our product, and therefore our footprint needs to continue to grow, because we need to invest in customer service, we need to invest in manufacturing, we need to invest in space. So last year, we opened two major sites, one in Korea, one in the US, and that intends to support basically our activity here. The big event in 2026 will be the groundbreaking of the big campus, which is our second big campus in the community.
Speaker #2: In terms of return to shareholders, if we look at dividends, the total dividend that we propose to the AGM for the year is €7.50.
Speaker #2: This quarter, we'll do €1.60 per ordinary share as an interim dividend in Q1. And therefore, if the AGM accepts our proposal, we would have a final dividend of €2.70.
Speaker #2: And that's a significant increase over last year. In terms of share buyback, we did not complete the full program of share buyback—as you see here, $7.6 billion out of the total program of $12 billion.
Speaker #2: We did announce a new program, $12 billion over a three-year period. In terms of outlook for the quarter, we expect net revenue between $8.2 and $8.9 billion, with gross margin between 51% and 53%.
Christophe Fouquet: We'll do that mostly in May, June, and I'm sure you will be invited to join us, with the idea that we can already start moving people, as early as in 2028. So this will be very good for our people. It will be very good also to debottleneck a bit, the campus in Veldhoven, of course, and this is a project, as you know, that is very, very important for ASML. This is my update. I will come back in a bit to talk a bit about, again, the action we are taking on our engineering team to strengthen our innovation. In the meantime, I'll give a chance to Roger to give us those very nice numbers. Thank you.
We'll do that mostly in May, June, and I'm sure you will be invited to join us, with the idea that we can already start moving people, as early as in 2028. So this will be very good for our people. It will be very good also to debottleneck a bit, the campus in Veldhoven, of course, and this is a project, as you know, that is very, very important for ASML. This is my update. I will come back in a bit to talk a bit about, again, the action we are taking on our engineering team to strengthen our innovation. In the meantime, I'll give a chance to Roger to give us those very nice numbers. Thank you.
Speaker #2: Look again at the installed base management sales, $2.4 billion. So last quarter, $2.1 billion. This goes up to $2.4 billion. What it really tells you is that the appetite from customers when it comes to upgrades is very, very high.
Speaker #2: Because, in the climate that Christophe was describing, where customers really have a lot of appetite to increase their capacity as quickly as they can, of course, on the one hand, they will try and complete their fab building as soon as they can, such that they can take our new tools in.
Roger Dassen: Thank you, Christophe. And, good morning, good afternoon, everyone. So indeed, I will, I will present the, the financials for 2025, and the, and the outlook. Christophe said it clearly Q4 2025, a record quarter, by any standard. It was a record quarter in terms of sales, it was a record quarter in terms of order, intake, it was a record quarter in terms of the cash flow, generation, on the back of all the good developments that Christophe just, just, shared with you. So I won't call them out here, but just, just looking at the quarter, it's pretty clear that it was a... Indeed, a very strong, quarter.
Roger Dassen: Thank you, Christophe. And, good morning, good afternoon, everyone. So indeed, I will, I will present the, the financials for 2025, and the, and the outlook. Christophe said it clearly Q4 2025, a record quarter, by any standard. It was a record quarter in terms of sales, it was a record quarter in terms of order, intake, it was a record quarter in terms of the cash flow, generation, on the back of all the good developments that Christophe just, just, shared with you. So I won't call them out here, but just, just looking at the quarter, it's pretty clear that it was a... Indeed, a very strong, quarter.
Speaker #2: But in the meantime, while these fabs are still under construction, the fastest way to get extra capacity is really to make sure that the tools are squeezed to the max.
Speaker #2: And therefore, to put as many upgrades on the tool as possible. And that's what you see here. And that really contributes to very, very strong installed base sales.
Speaker #2: Going up again this quarter. Solid gross margin, 51 to 53%. R&D and SG&A costs nicely under control. For the full year, €34 to €39 billion, really on the back of all the developments that Christophe talked about.
Roger Dassen: If we look at 2025, and if we look at the total business for ASML, we ended the year with EUR 32.7 billion in net revenue, 52.8% gross margin. And you see the key elements in here, a net income of EUR 9.6 billion, and an EPS, earnings per share, of close to EUR 25 per ordinary share. All in all, very, very strong year, in which we also, you know, paid back and returned quite some money to our shareholders, and also were able to do the participation in the Mistral that Christophe just alluded to.
If we look at 2025, and if we look at the total business for ASML, we ended the year with EUR 32.7 billion in net revenue, 52.8% gross margin. And you see the key elements in here, a net income of EUR 9.6 billion, and an EPS, earnings per share, of close to EUR 25 per ordinary share. All in all, very, very strong year, in which we also, you know, paid back and returned quite some money to our shareholders, and also were able to do the participation in the Mistral that Christophe just alluded to.
Speaker #2: So the real steam engine behind this growth is, once again, EUV. So we once again expect the EUV business to go up significantly this year.
Speaker #2: We also expect the installed base business to go up this year, and it will go a little bit at the detriment of the non-EUV business.
Speaker #2: We expect that to be about flattish. So, non-EUV business is expected to be flattish from '25 to '26. With us moving parts for the leading nodes, so for the big customers, both in memory and advanced logic, we actually expect the DPV business to go up a bit.
Speaker #2: As I mentioned, in China, we expect the China business to go down. Metrology and inspection, we expect to be quite strong. So those are more or less the moving parts within the non-EUV business.
Roger Dassen: Very clearly, EUV was the main driver behind it, and you will see it in the pie chart that I will share with you in a moment. It will clarify that it is particularly the leading technology that really contributed to the growth, so both immersion, but first and foremost, also EUV. So EUV grew 39% in comparison to last year, to 2024.
Very clearly, EUV was the main driver behind it, and you will see it in the pie chart that I will share with you in a moment. It will clarify that it is particularly the leading technology that really contributed to the growth, so both immersion, but first and foremost, also EUV. So EUV grew 39% in comparison to last year, to 2024.
Speaker #2: Again, for the full year, €34 to €39 billion, which at the midpoint, after a growth of 16% in '25. At the midpoint, you would be looking at a 12% increase in this year, with good potential as the bandwidth also suggests.
Roger Dassen: A mix of both more tools, significantly higher sales price of the tools, because most of the tools that we sold, most of the low NA tools that we sold in 2025 were 3800 tools, which, as you know, saw an increase in productivity from 160 wafers per hour to 220 wafers per hour, and of course, a commensurate increase in the sales price. And obviously, we also had the recognition of a number of EXE tools, high NA tools. So it's in that combination that really EUV was the big driver of growth for us this year. Big moment indeed, and Christoph showed it as well. The revenue recognition of the first 5200B.
A mix of both more tools, significantly higher sales price of the tools, because most of the tools that we sold, most of the low NA tools that we sold in 2025 were 3800 tools, which, as you know, saw an increase in productivity from 160 wafers per hour to 220 wafers per hour, and of course, a commensurate increase in the sales price. And obviously, we also had the recognition of a number of EXE tools, high NA tools. So it's in that combination that really EUV was the big driver of growth for us this year. Big moment indeed, and Christoph showed it as well. The revenue recognition of the first 5200B.
Speaker #2: Gross margin 51%, 53%. And annualized effective rate, 17%. Friends, that concludes my presentation. And as I mentioned, Christophe still has a part for you on the streamlining of our engineering and innovation function.
Speaker #2: Thank you, Roger. So, I'm losing my mic. Yeah, we don't have AI everywhere, as you can see—we didn't. No.
Speaker #3: God.
Speaker #2: Picture. Good. Yeah, I have one slide I want to share with you on the action we are taking, basically, to strengthen our innovation and engineering team.
Roger Dassen: Really a big moment for us, because that's the high volume manufacturing tool on high NA, and the fact that we were able to not just ship it, but also get it installed and get accepted by the customer, and the customer are really looking at putting that tool into high volume manufacturing for its leading nodes, is a very significant moment for the company. DUV went down a bit, decreased 6%. If you look at the geographies, you would see that most of the decline would actually come from China, so that's where most of the decline on DUV was. Immersion is still quite strong, but particularly on the dry side, it was lower than it was in 2024.
Really a big moment for us, because that's the high volume manufacturing tool on high NA, and the fact that we were able to not just ship it, but also get it installed and get accepted by the customer, and the customer are really looking at putting that tool into high volume manufacturing for its leading nodes, is a very significant moment for the company. DUV went down a bit, decreased 6%. If you look at the geographies, you would see that most of the decline would actually come from China, so that's where most of the decline on DUV was. Immersion is still quite strong, but particularly on the dry side, it was lower than it was in 2024.
Speaker #2: So, I think that the net resource of that, which is 1,700 people leaving the company, I think has been picked up pretty clearly already this morning.
Speaker #2: What I want to do is to give you some background. And of course, you understand—listening to our outlook, listening to the numbers—we are not doing that in any case because we are in trouble or because we need to save money, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker #2: Now, the reason we are doing that is that we have been growing very fast. And this is also true for the technology team, or innovation engine.
Roger Dassen: But there, the step into the 3D integration market with the introduction of the XT:260, obviously, was another big, big moment. Application, very strong. Christophe alluded to it, a 20% increase, right there, with the need for more process control for our customers at the leading nodes. And finally, very, very strong 26% increase in our installed base business, both on the back of service. You know, our installed base in EUV is obviously growing, therefore, you know, you see continuous step up of our service revenue from EUV, but also increased appetite in EUV in upgrades. I'll come back to that later.
But there, the step into the 3D integration market with the introduction of the XT:260, obviously, was another big, big moment. Application, very strong. Christophe alluded to it, a 20% increase, right there, with the need for more process control for our customers at the leading nodes. And finally, very, very strong 26% increase in our installed base business, both on the back of service. You know, our installed base in EUV is obviously growing, therefore, you know, you see continuous step up of our service revenue from EUV, but also increased appetite in EUV in upgrades. I'll come back to that later.
Speaker #2: And as you know, the technology team—the innovation engine of ASML—has been the reason for our success. It's been true for many, many years.
Speaker #2: And this is still going to be true for many, many years to come. And, as we have said, in 2025 we want to continue to innovate more.
Speaker #2: This is why we engage in AI. This is why we engage in 3D integration. This is why we have a long roadmap on EUV.
Speaker #2: And we believe that innovation will, for many, many years to come, define our success. But when we listen to the feedback of many of our stakeholders, they have told us in the last few years that we are not very agile, in fact.
Roger Dassen: This gives you some breakdowns, and I won't call them out all, but I think if you look at technology, it's interesting to see that the leading technologies, so both EUV and immersion combined, give you 90% of our systems revenue. And I think that really talks volumes, I think, about the shift that Christophe was also talking about. The shift to more and more leading nodes, clearly represented here in the share of technology. In terms of end use, you see, you know, memory at 34%, logic at 66%. You see memory actually declining a little bit in terms of percentage. We actually see that flip in 2026. So in 2026, you will see that memory becomes more and more important.
This gives you some breakdowns, and I won't call them out all, but I think if you look at technology, it's interesting to see that the leading technologies, so both EUV and immersion combined, give you 90% of our systems revenue. And I think that really talks volumes, I think, about the shift that Christophe was also talking about. The shift to more and more leading nodes, clearly represented here in the share of technology. In terms of end use, you see, you know, memory at 34%, logic at 66%. You see memory actually declining a little bit in terms of percentage. We actually see that flip in 2026. So in 2026, you will see that memory becomes more and more important.
Speaker #2: And we are not, I would say, responsive enough. So our customers are pointing to the need for us, on technology, to be able to respond much faster, to work on quality, to work on new products.
Speaker #2: A very important feedback we got is from our horn engineers. They told us, well, a lot of the time we spend in ASML is not anymore on innovation.
Speaker #2: Because the organization has become so complex, we have so many people steering us in different directions that we have to spend a bigger part of our time just dealing with that.
Speaker #2: And this has been a very, very strong—and I would say, loud—message from our people. And we felt the need, basically, to address that.
Roger Dassen: In terms of regions, a lot to be said there, but I think, you know, China is still very, very big, but smaller than it was last time, both in terms of percentage of system sales and also in absolute numbers. You see a bit of a decline in the China market. We expect that decline to continue. As we said, we expect the China business for this year to be around 20% of our total sales. So here, it was 33% of total system sales. It was 29% in terms of total sales. We expect the 29% number to go down to approximately 20% this year. This gives you the net sales by end use over the years.
In terms of regions, a lot to be said there, but I think, you know, China is still very, very big, but smaller than it was last time, both in terms of percentage of system sales and also in absolute numbers. You see a bit of a decline in the China market. We expect that decline to continue. As we said, we expect the China business for this year to be around 20% of our total sales. So here, it was 33% of total system sales. It was 29% in terms of total sales. We expect the 29% number to go down to approximately 20% this year. This gives you the net sales by end use over the years.
Speaker #2: Our supplier, if you talk to them, they also tell us the same. And therefore, we felt the need to move. So you heard about the numbers—1,700.
Speaker #2: I'd like to give you a bit more color to these numbers. If you look at our technology organization today, we have about 4,500 leaders.
Speaker #2: Which is quite a bit. When we look at a future organization where we simplify our processes, where we reduce the number of steering axes towards our engineers, we believe, basically, that we need about 1,500 leaders to run this organization.
Roger Dassen: I won't spend too much time on it. Just one fun fact, if you look at the installed base business at EUR 8.2 billion, that comes pretty close to the total revenue for ASML in 2017. That just tells you how unbelievably rapidly the company grew. And the fact that we have such a big number in terms of installed base business, obviously, also provides a lot of resilience for the company. So therefore, it's an important number for us to focus on and to continue to increase. This gives you the business over the years.
I won't spend too much time on it. Just one fun fact, if you look at the installed base business at EUR 8.2 billion, that comes pretty close to the total revenue for ASML in 2017. That just tells you how unbelievably rapidly the company grew. And the fact that we have such a big number in terms of installed base business, obviously, also provides a lot of resilience for the company. So therefore, it's an important number for us to focus on and to continue to increase. This gives you the business over the years.
Speaker #2: So it's 3,000-plus leaders needed. If we are successful in simplifying, out of those 3,000 people that we don't need basically to lead the team, we are going to create 1,400 engineering positions.
Speaker #2: So we are going to add, in fact, some engineering bandwidth to work on existing products, to work on future products. So we want to, in fact, have out of this action more engineers.
Roger Dassen: So if you just, you know, if you take the four-year increase from 2021 to 2025, you would see that the company has grown 75%, at the top line. You also see that R&D increases from 2.5 to 4.7, which of course was absolutely critical in getting us, you know, prepared for all the beautiful products that we're currently shipping to our customers. But I think it's also fair to acknowledge that this huge increase in R&D number has also driven some organizational complexity that Christophe will talk about after my contribution. So this gives you the overview, and as you see, earnings per share, an interesting number, rounded 25.
So if you just, you know, if you take the four-year increase from 2021 to 2025, you would see that the company has grown 75%, at the top line. You also see that R&D increases from 2.5 to 4.7, which of course was absolutely critical in getting us, you know, prepared for all the beautiful products that we're currently shipping to our customers. But I think it's also fair to acknowledge that this huge increase in R&D number has also driven some organizational complexity that Christophe will talk about after my contribution. So this gives you the overview, and as you see, earnings per share, an interesting number, rounded 25.
Speaker #2: And less, I would say, leadership, so that engineers can be fully enabled to do their job. And as a result of that, if you do the math, we have 1,600 people out of the technology team that will not have a job in ASML anymore.
Speaker #2: Now, the difference between the 1,600 and 1,700 is 100 people coming out of IT, when we have a similar situation, similar feedback, and where we believe that about 100 leading positions are not needed.
Speaker #2: So, this is a bit the math. We want to really boost, again, our engineering capability—our innovation engine. We want to improve the satisfaction of our engineers, our customers, our suppliers.
Roger Dassen: 25 by 25 is something that you might easily recall on a go-forward basis. In terms of return to shareholders, if we look at dividends, the total dividend that we propose to the AGM for the year is EUR 7.50. This quarter, we'll do EUR 1.60 per ordinary share as an interim dividend in Q1, and therefore, if the AGM accepts our proposal, we would have a final dividend of EUR 2.70, and that's a significant increase over last year. In terms of share buyback, we did not complete the full program of share buyback, as you see here, EUR 7.6 billion out of the total program of EUR 12 billion.
25 by 25 is something that you might easily recall on a go-forward basis. In terms of return to shareholders, if we look at dividends, the total dividend that we propose to the AGM for the year is EUR 7.50. This quarter, we'll do EUR 1.60 per ordinary share as an interim dividend in Q1, and therefore, if the AGM accepts our proposal, we would have a final dividend of EUR 2.70, and that's a significant increase over last year. In terms of share buyback, we did not complete the full program of share buyback, as you see here, EUR 7.6 billion out of the total program of EUR 12 billion.
Speaker #2: And, of course, this comes at the cost of a very difficult decision we had to make. We explained to our employees this morning, this is most probably the most difficult decision the management team ever had to make in ASML.
Speaker #2: But we do it because we truly believe that this is the right thing to do for the company, for our stakeholders, starting with our employees.
Speaker #2: And to basically continue to be this great company moving forward. So that's a bit more background. And with that, I think we'd like to take some questions from you.
Speaker #2: Thank you very much.
Speaker #4: OK, thank you. So, we have some questions online, and we have some people here in the room. And because you all came here, I think you should go first.
Roger Dassen: We did announce a new program, EUR 12 billion over a three-year period. In terms of outlook, for the quarter, we expect net revenue between EUR 8.2 and 8.9 billion, with a gross margin between 51% and 53%. Look again at the installed base management sales, EUR 2.4 billion. So last quarter, EUR 2.1 billion, this goes up to EUR 2.4 billion. What it really tells you is that the appetite from customers when it comes to upgrades is very, very high. Because in the climate that Christophe was describing, where customers really have a lot of appetite to increase their capacity as quickly as they can.
We did announce a new program, EUR 12 billion over a three-year period. In terms of outlook, for the quarter, we expect net revenue between EUR 8.2 and 8.9 billion, with a gross margin between 51% and 53%. Look again at the installed base management sales, EUR 2.4 billion. So last quarter, EUR 2.1 billion, this goes up to EUR 2.4 billion. What it really tells you is that the appetite from customers when it comes to upgrades is very, very high. Because in the climate that Christophe was describing, where customers really have a lot of appetite to increase their capacity as quickly as they can.
Speaker #4: So, let's ask some questions in the room first.
Speaker #5: Good morning. Thanks for taking my question.
Speaker #4: Please state your name and your publication first so everyone
Speaker #4: knows.
Speaker #3: Yeah, exactly. OK, sorry.
Speaker #5: I'm Sarah Jacob. I'm from Bloomberg News. Regarding the job cuts that you announced today, what kind of restructuring costs or charges can we expect from this?
Speaker #3: That's obviously a subject to the discussions that we're having with the World Council and, first and foremost, unions. So I cannot talk about that.
Speaker #3: But these costs, in the grand scheme of ASML, would not be considered material. So, the finalization of the number is very much subject to discussion.
Roger Dassen: Of course, on the one hand, they will, you know, try and complete their fab building as soon as they can, such that they can take our new tools in. But in the meantime, once these fabs are still in construction, the fastest way to get extra capacity is really to make sure that the tools are, you know, squeezed to the max, and therefore, to put as much upgrades on the tool as is possible. And that's what you see here, and that really contributes to very, very strong installed base sales, going up again this quarter. So the gross margin, 51% to 53%, R&D and SG&A cost, nicely under control. For the full year, EUR 34 to 39 billion, really on the back of all the developments that Christophe talked about.
Of course, on the one hand, they will, you know, try and complete their fab building as soon as they can, such that they can take our new tools in. But in the meantime, once these fabs are still in construction, the fastest way to get extra capacity is really to make sure that the tools are, you know, squeezed to the max, and therefore, to put as much upgrades on the tool as is possible. And that's what you see here, and that really contributes to very, very strong installed base sales, going up again this quarter. So the gross margin, 51% to 53%, R&D and SG&A cost, nicely under control. For the full year, EUR 34 to 39 billion, really on the back of all the developments that Christophe talked about.
Speaker #3: But not materially in our numbers.
Speaker #6: Bert and Ike, Financiële Dagblad. I've got a question about—there's a lot of talk about capacity expansion from your customers. We've seen a lot of announcements.
Speaker #6: But how much of those announcements are, or is, related to real capacity expansion? And what part is CAPEX inflation, so to speak? Because the cost of a wafer is increasing.
Speaker #6: How sustainable is that? Can you elaborate a little bit on
Roger Dassen: So the real steam engine behind this growth is once again, EUV. So we once again expect the EUV business to go up significantly this year. We also expect the installed base business to go up this year. And it will go a little bit at the detriment of the non-EUV business. We expect that to be about flattish. So non-EUV business is expected to flattish from 25 to 26. With those moving parts, for the leading nodes, so for the, you know, the big customers, both in memory and advanced logic, we actually expect the DUV business to go up a bit. As I mentioned, in China, we expect the China business to go down. Metrology and inspection, we expect to be quite strong.
So the real steam engine behind this growth is once again, EUV. So we once again expect the EUV business to go up significantly this year. We also expect the installed base business to go up this year. And it will go a little bit at the detriment of the non-EUV business. We expect that to be about flattish. So non-EUV business is expected to flattish from 25 to 26. With those moving parts, for the leading nodes, so for the, you know, the big customers, both in memory and advanced logic, we actually expect the DUV business to go up a bit. As I mentioned, in China, we expect the China business to go down. Metrology and inspection, we expect to be quite strong.
Speaker #6: that?
Speaker #3: Well, I think so. I talked.
Speaker #3: About short and midterm. So I think that the visibility we get from our customer is most probably for the next couple of years. And when we talk about capacity expansion, we talk about new systems.
Speaker #3: So that's why we said that if we look at 2026, we expect to ship quite a few more EUV tools. It's also true with metrology and inspection.
Speaker #3: I think Roger was rightfully stressing the progress of our install-based business, which also includes upgrades, and we will see also a lot of that.
Speaker #3: So, I would say when you hear our customer talking about capacity expansion, this translates directly into need for more tools. And for a long time, we heard our customer's customer—sometimes our customer's customer's customer—talking about expansion.
Roger Dassen: So those are, you know, more or less the moving parts within the non-EUV, non-EUV business. Again, for the full year, EUR 34 to 39 billion, which at the midpoint, after, you know, a growth of 16% in 2025. At the midpoint, you would be looking at a 12% increase in this year with, you know, good potential, as the bandwidth also suggests. Gross margin, 51 to 53%, and annualized effective tax rate of 17%. Friends, that concludes my presentation, and as I mentioned, Christophe still has a part for you on the streamlining of our engineering and innovation function.
So those are, you know, more or less the moving parts within the non-EUV, non-EUV business. Again, for the full year, EUR 34 to 39 billion, which at the midpoint, after, you know, a growth of 16% in 2025. At the midpoint, you would be looking at a 12% increase in this year with, you know, good potential, as the bandwidth also suggests. Gross margin, 51 to 53%, and annualized effective tax rate of 17%. Friends, that concludes my presentation, and as I mentioned, Christophe still has a part for you on the streamlining of our engineering and innovation function.
Speaker #3: And this was still a bit far away from us. In the last few months, if you have listened to TSMC, Samsung, Micron—Micron has been announcing groundbreaking almost every week for the last few weeks.
Speaker #3: There you have a direct translation, basically, into shipment for us. And we have not said that in our talk. But also, buildup of capacity.
Speaker #3: So of course, a lot of that will affect positively not only ASML but the entire supply chain here in the region.
Christophe Fouquet: Thank you, Roger. So... Losing my mic. Yeah, we don't have AI everywhere, as you can see. We didn't... God! No picture. Good. Yeah, I have one slide I want to share with you on the action we are taking, basically to strengthen our innovation and engineering team. So I think that, you know, the net results of that, which is, you know, 1,700 people leaving the company, I think has been picked up pretty clearly already this morning. What I want to do is to give you some background. And of course, you understand, listening to our outlook, listening to the numbers, we are not doing that in any case because we are in trouble or because we need to save money, et cetera, et cetera.
Christophe Fouquet: Thank you, Roger. So... Losing my mic. Yeah, we don't have AI everywhere, as you can see. We didn't... God! No picture. Good. Yeah, I have one slide I want to share with you on the action we are taking, basically to strengthen our innovation and engineering team. So I think that, you know, the net results of that, which is, you know, 1,700 people leaving the company, I think has been picked up pretty clearly already this morning. What I want to do is to give you some background. And of course, you understand, listening to our outlook, listening to the numbers, we are not doing that in any case because we are in trouble or because we need to save money, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker #4: OK. Let's turn to an online question and get back to you then. So, a question from Financial Times: Please, can you talk a bit more about how the AI memory shortage is driving your business?
Speaker #4: And to what extent those customers are being more aggressive in their capacity expansion than
Speaker #4: logic? Yeah, I would start.
Speaker #6: I think that it's difficult to say if logic or DRAM is the bottleneck for AI today. I would still pick, most probably, memory at this point in time.
Speaker #6: And the reason for that is that we come to memory. The demand for high-bandwidth memory, which is the AI memory, is extremely high.
Speaker #6: But the demand for DDR memory, which is for mobile PC, is also very high. And as a result, we have seen basically the price of DRAM going up significantly in the last few weeks.
Speaker #6: Therefore, there's a need for capacity. And our memory customers are moving very aggressively. I mentioned a few examples. And the reason for that is when you have such a demand for capacity, capacity is also market share.
Christophe Fouquet: Now, the reason we are doing that is that we have been growing very fast, and, you know, this is also true for our technology team, our innovation engine. As you know, the technology team, the innovation engine of ASML, has been the reason for our success. It's been true for many, many years, and this is still going to be true for many, many years to come. As we have said in 2025, we want to continue to innovate more. This is why we engage in AI, this is why we engage in 3D integration, this is why we have a long roadmap on EUV, and we believe that innovation will, for many, many years to come, define our success.
Now, the reason we are doing that is that we have been growing very fast, and, you know, this is also true for our technology team, our innovation engine. As you know, the technology team, the innovation engine of ASML, has been the reason for our success. It's been true for many, many years, and this is still going to be true for many, many years to come. As we have said in 2025, we want to continue to innovate more. This is why we engage in AI, this is why we engage in 3D integration, this is why we have a long roadmap on EUV, and we believe that innovation will, for many, many years to come, define our success.
Speaker #6: And if we look at 2026, we know that the memory demand will be very, very tight because our customers are saying that publicly. So there is a huge appetite.
Speaker #6: And it started most probably end of last year for our DRAM customers to really build up capacity, as quickly as possible. And that's the dynamic we are in, which of course has major positive benefits.
Speaker #6: And it started, most probably, end of last year for our DRAM customers to really build up capacity as quickly as possible. And that's the dynamic we are in, which of course has major positive benefits for ASML.
Speaker #4: OK, thank you. Mark, in the room? I see some.
Speaker #4: Hands. So, first, class wants to do
Speaker #6: How does the stabilizing AI market influence the perspective of the amount of jobs you're about growing in Eindhoven?
Christophe Fouquet: But when we listen to the feedback of many of our stakeholders, they have told us in the last years that we're not very agile, in fact, and we're not, I would say, responsive enough. So our customers are pointing to the need for us on technology to be able to respond much faster, to work on quality, to work on new product. A very important feedback we got is from our own engineers, who told us, "Well, a lot of the time we spend in ASML is not anymore on innovation, right?
But when we listen to the feedback of many of our stakeholders, they have told us in the last years that we're not very agile, in fact, and we're not, I would say, responsive enough. So our customers are pointing to the need for us on technology to be able to respond much faster, to work on quality, to work on new product. A very important feedback we got is from our own engineers, who told us, "Well, a lot of the time we spend in ASML is not anymore on innovation, right?
Speaker #2: Well, so if you look at the big picture, so I mentioned again our long-term forecast as we established it in November 2024, where we still see us growing towards €44 to €60 billion revenue.
Speaker #2: Which means that we still see a need for more capacity. Even as we speak, this year we will be adding jobs in manufacturing, in customer service, in order to support basically that need.
Christophe Fouquet: Because the organization has become so complex, we have so many people steering us in different direction, that we have to spend a bigger part of our time just dealing with that." And this has been a very, very strong, and I would say, loud message from our people, and we felt the need, basically, to address that. Our supplier, if you talk to them, they also tell us the same, and therefore, we felt the need to move. So you heard about the number, 1,700. I'd like to give you a bit more color to this number. If you look at our technology organization today, we have about 4,500 leaders, which is quite a bit.
Because the organization has become so complex, we have so many people steering us in different direction, that we have to spend a bigger part of our time just dealing with that." And this has been a very, very strong, and I would say, loud message from our people, and we felt the need, basically, to address that. Our supplier, if you talk to them, they also tell us the same, and therefore, we felt the need to move. So you heard about the number, 1,700. I'd like to give you a bit more color to this number. If you look at our technology organization today, we have about 4,500 leaders, which is quite a bit.
Speaker #2: So I would say the long-term strategy is still a trajectory of growth. We take today very specific action on a very, very focused part of the organization, which is the technology team.
Speaker #2: And, in fact, even focused specifically on the leadership of the technology team. But it doesn't change fundamentally our growth trajectory, and therefore our commitment to people, but also, as I've shown, to footprint, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker #2: The supply chain—I could add to that. And I think it's very important to understand that even as a company grows and is very successful, there's still a need once in a while to make sure that some of the key elements of the company—and for us, that's the technology—technology is really our heart.
Christophe Fouquet: When we look at a future organization where we simplify our processes, where we reduce the number of steering access to all our engineers, we believe, basically, that we need about 1,500 leaders to run this organization. So it's 3,000 less leaders needed, if we are successful in simplifying. So out of the 3,000 people that we don't need basically to lead the team, we are going to create 1,400 engineering positions. So we are going to add, in fact, some engineering bandwidth to work on existing product, to work on future products. So we want to, in fact, have, out of this action, more engineers and less, I will say, leadership, so that engineers can be fully enabled to do their job.
When we look at a future organization where we simplify our processes, where we reduce the number of steering access to all our engineers, we believe, basically, that we need about 1,500 leaders to run this organization. So it's 3,000 less leaders needed, if we are successful in simplifying. So out of the 3,000 people that we don't need basically to lead the team, we are going to create 1,400 engineering positions. So we are going to add, in fact, some engineering bandwidth to work on existing product, to work on future products. So we want to, in fact, have, out of this action, more engineers and less, I will say, leadership, so that engineers can be fully enabled to do their job.
Speaker #2: We have to make sure that we keep the heart in the best possible shape. And the action we are taking today is difficult, is painful.
Speaker #2: But the intention is to make sure that that innovation engine keeps going, so that as the market grows, we keep our very strong leadership position in the market.
Speaker #4: OK. Sure.
Speaker #6: Hi. Mark Heijink, NRC. I have two questions. One relating to the reorganization, and the other one is to being prepared for this huge demand in new machines.
Speaker #6: First of all, the reorganization you referred to—the technology team—does it mean that something changes within the internal structure as well regarding D&E or R&D?
Christophe Fouquet: As a result of that, if you do the math, we have 1,600 people out of the technology team that will not have a job in ASML anymore. Now, the difference between the 1,600 and 1,700 is 100 people coming out, out of IT, when we have a similar situation, similar feedback, and where there, we believe that about 100 leading position are not needed. So this is a bit the math. We want to really boost, again, our engineering capability, our innovation engine. We want to improve, I would say, the satisfaction of our engineers, our customer, and our supplier. And of course, this come at the cost of a very difficult decision we had to made. You know, we explained our employees this morning, this is most probably the most difficult decision the management team ever had to make in ASML.
As a result of that, if you do the math, we have 1,600 people out of the technology team that will not have a job in ASML anymore. Now, the difference between the 1,600 and 1,700 is 100 people coming out, out of IT, when we have a similar situation, similar feedback, and where there, we believe that about 100 leading position are not needed. So this is a bit the math. We want to really boost, again, our engineering capability, our innovation engine. We want to improve, I would say, the satisfaction of our engineers, our customer, and our supplier. And of course, this come at the cost of a very difficult decision we had to made. You know, we explained our employees this morning, this is most probably the most difficult decision the management team ever had to make in ASML.
Speaker #6: And the other question is, when it comes to being prepared for this new upcycle, is your supply chain also prepared? So, did you do some stockpiling there?
Speaker #6: Or does everybody have to expand?
Speaker #3: Yeah, I’ll take the first one, and I’ll leave you the second one. So, I think the short answer to your first question is yes.
Speaker #3: I think that the transformation, the change in the organization, will be mostly around D&E—not only, but mostly around D&E. The leadership I was referring to is mostly within D&E.
Speaker #3: That's also why Marko, our CTO, together with Jo Schmitz, are taking the lead—also on that activity. But since innovation is the heart of the company, everything else is connected to that.
Christophe Fouquet: But we do it because we truly believe that this is the right thing to do for the company, for our stakeholder, starting with our employee, and to basically continue to be this great company moving forward. So that's a bit more background, and with that, I think we'd like to take some question from you. Thank you very much.
But we do it because we truly believe that this is the right thing to do for the company, for our stakeholder, starting with our employee, and to basically continue to be this great company moving forward. So that's a bit more background, and with that, I think we'd like to take some question from you. Thank you very much.
Speaker #3: And by improving the organization, the D&E organization, we also improve the interfaces with Operations. We improve the interfaces with our customer. And we improve the interfaces with our supplier.
Monique Mols: Okay. Thank you. So we have some questions online, and we have some people here in the room, and because you all came here, I think you should go first. So, let's ask some questions in the room first.
Monique Mols: Okay. Thank you. So we have some questions online, and we have some people here in the room, and because you all came here, I think you should go first. So, let's ask some questions in the room first.
Speaker #3: So all the people who told us, basically, you've got to do something better, should benefit from that. So a lot of the work will be focused on D&E. In fact, what we talk about today, I would say, practically doesn't concern the very large majority of the team at ASML.
Sarah Jacob: Good morning. Thanks for taking my-
Sarah Jacob: Good morning. Thanks for taking my-
Monique Mols: Please state your name and your publication first, so everyone knows.
Monique Mols: Please state your name and your publication first, so everyone knows.
Sarah Jacob: Yeah.
Sarah Jacob: Yeah.
Christophe Fouquet: Exactly.
Christophe Fouquet: Exactly.
Sarah Jacob: Okay, sorry. I'm Sarah Jacob, I'm from Bloomberg News. Regarding the job cuts that you announced today, what kind of restructuring costs or charges can we expect from this?
Sarah Jacob: Okay, sorry. I'm Sarah Jacob, I'm from Bloomberg News. Regarding the job cuts that you announced today, what kind of restructuring costs or charges can we expect from this?
Speaker #3: But the impact, I think, will go beyond.
Speaker #3: D&E. Mark, on
Speaker #6: The capacity, what we've done, as you know, in the past couple of years is to put in what we call the long lead time items.
Speaker #6: Which means that everything that takes, let's say, longer than 12–18 months to realize is in place in order to get to a much higher volume.
Roger Dassen: That's obviously a subject to the discussions that we're having with the work council and, first and foremost, union, so cannot talk about that. But these costs in the grand scheme of ASML would not be considered material. So we'll, you know, the finalization of the number is very, very much subject to discussion, but, you know, not materially in our numbers.
Roger Dassen: That's obviously a subject to the discussions that we're having with the work council and, first and foremost, union, so cannot talk about that. But these costs in the grand scheme of ASML would not be considered material. So we'll, you know, the finalization of the number is very, very much subject to discussion, but, you know, not materially in our numbers.
Speaker #6: So that means factory space, et cetera, et cetera. We've done that. And we've worked with our supply chain for them to do that as well.
Speaker #6: So what we're doing now, based on the very strong signals that we're getting from our customers, and also them indicating that they believe this development is sustainable, we're now making sure that every quarter we increase our move rate.
Speaker #6: Because, as you will appreciate, you cannot move from 44 units in 2025 to 80 units in 2026. It doesn't work that way. So, you gradually need to crank up your move rate.
Bert Nijenk: Bert Nijenk, Financieele Dagblad. I got a question about... There's a lot of talk about capacity expansion from your customers. We've seen a lot of announcements, but how much of those announcements are, or, or is related to real capacity expansion, and what part is CapEx inflation, so to speak? Because the cost of a wafer is increasing. How sustainable is that? Can you elaborate a little bit on that?
Bert van Dijk: Bert van Dijk, Financieele Dagblad. I got a question about... There's a lot of talk about capacity expansion from your customers. We've seen a lot of announcements, but how much of those announcements are, or, or is related to real capacity expansion, and what part is CapEx inflation, so to speak? Because the cost of a wafer is increasing. How sustainable is that? Can you elaborate a little bit on that?
Speaker #6: And that's exactly what we're doing right now. We're doing that. We have a very solid understanding also with our supply chain. They're doing the same thing.
Speaker #6: And that will lead to a very, very meaningful increase in our capacity this year, but also moving forward.
Christophe Fouquet: Well, I think so. I talked about short and mid-term. So I think that the visibility we get from our customer is most free for the next couple of years. And when we talk about capacity expansion, we talk about new systems. So that's why we said that if we look at 2026, we expect to ship quite a few more EUV tool. It's also true with metrology, with inspection. I think Roger was rightfully stressing the progress of our installed base business, which also include upgrades, and we will see also a lot of that. So I would say, when you hear our customer talking about capacity expansion, this translate directly into need for more tools.
Christophe Fouquet: Well, I think so. I talked about short and mid-term. So I think that the visibility we get from our customer is most free for the next couple of years. And when we talk about capacity expansion, we talk about new systems. So that's why we said that if we look at 2026, we expect to ship quite a few more EUV tool. It's also true with metrology, with inspection. I think Roger was rightfully stressing the progress of our installed base business, which also include upgrades, and we will see also a lot of that. So I would say, when you hear our customer talking about capacity expansion, this translate directly into need for more tools.
Speaker #4: I'm going to go to one online, and then get back to you. Could you share how ASML's R&D spending is currently divided between EUV-related development and non-EUV technologies?
Speaker #4: This is a question from the Chemical Daily in Tokyo. We have a lot of people from Japan online watching us.
Speaker #4: So that's really nice. The lion's share.
Speaker #6: A lot of the R&D expense really is in EUV, because on EUV, we have both High NA and we have the Low NA platform, where we still see a lot of potential to develop that.
Speaker #6: And we're also working on what we call the High-Perform platform. So, we have three very significant workstreams in the D&E organization to focus on EUV.
Speaker #6: So, without a doubt, EUV is the lion's share of the development. But, that said, we do have roadmaps for the other products as well.
Christophe Fouquet: You know, for a long time, we heard our customer, sometimes our customer, talking about expansion, and this was still a bit far away from us. In the last three months, if you have listened to TSMC, Samsung, Micron. Micron has been announcing, you know, groundbreaking almost every week for the last few weeks. There, you know, you have a direct translation, basically, into shipment for us, and we have not said that in our talk, but also build up of capacity. So of course, a lot of that will affect positively, not only ASML, but the entire supply chain here in the region.
Speaker #6: You heard us talk about the 260. You might have heard about the 870, which is a platform that really significantly increases the output capability on the dry business.
You know, for a long time, we heard our customer, sometimes our customer, talking about expansion, and this was still a bit far away from us. In the last three months, if you have listened to TSMC, Samsung, Micron. Micron has been announcing, you know, groundbreaking almost every week for the last few weeks. There, you know, you have a direct translation, basically, into shipment for us, and we have not said that in our talk, but also build up of capacity. So of course, a lot of that will affect positively, not only ASML, but the entire supply chain here in the region.
Speaker #6: So we're working there as well. Lion's share is really focused on EUV. Niels Waarloo, Volkskrant.
Speaker #6: I had an OK question about the China business, which is going down quite dramatically. I was wondering whether it's also going down in absolute numbers.
Speaker #6: And if that's the case, what's driving that? Whether it's just still a backlog thing, or whether something else is going on as—
Speaker #6: well?
Speaker #3: Well, it is
Speaker #3: Going down in absolute numbers as well. So if you do the math on the system sales, if you take the chart, you take the percentage, and you apply it to the total system sales, you would see that actually it goes down in system sales.
Monique Mols: Okay. Let's turn to an online question and get back to you then. So a question from Financial Times: Please, can you talk a bit more about how the AI memory shortage is driving your business, and to what extent those customers are being more aggressive in their capacity expansion than logic?
Monique Mols: Okay. Let's turn to an online question and get back to you then. So a question from Financial Times: Please, can you talk a bit more about how the AI memory shortage is driving your business, and to what extent those customers are being more aggressive in their capacity expansion than logic?
Speaker #3: I think something like $850 million. But you can do the math yourself and verify whether my memory serves me well here. But it is clearly going down from '24 to '25.
Christophe Fouquet: I will start. I think that, you know, it, it's difficult to say if logic or DRAM is the bottleneck for AI today. I would still pick most from the memory at this point of time, and the reason for that is that when it comes to memory, the demand for high bandwidth memory, which is the AI memory, is extremely high. But the demand for DDR, memory, which is for mobile PC, is also very high. And as a result, we have seen basically the price of the RAM going up significantly in the last, few weeks. Therefore, there's a need for capacity, and our memory customer are moving very aggressively. I mentioned a few example. And the reason for that is when you have such a demand for capacity, capacity is also market share.
Christophe Fouquet: I will start. I think that, you know, it, it's difficult to say if logic or DRAM is the bottleneck for AI today. I would still pick most from the memory at this point of time, and the reason for that is that when it comes to memory, the demand for high bandwidth memory, which is the AI memory, is extremely high. But the demand for DDR, memory, which is for mobile PC, is also very high. And as a result, we have seen basically the price of the RAM going up significantly in the last, few weeks. Therefore, there's a need for capacity, and our memory customer are moving very aggressively. I mentioned a few example. And the reason for that is when you have such a demand for capacity, capacity is also market share.
Speaker #3: And also, at the 20% number that we indicated for this year, it will go down further. What's going on there? Well, first of all, it's normalizing.
Speaker #3: Because I think the reality is, we should ask ourselves the question: what was going on in previous years? What was going on in previous years is that, over the COVID period, we built up a huge backlog.
Speaker #3: Because we, and in fact, we underserved the Chinese market during the COVID days. As a result of that, a huge backlog has been built.
Speaker #3: And we have been executing on that backlog in the past couple of years. So at a certain point in time, we already expected China to normalize.
Speaker #3: Frankly, the very strong China sales still in 2025 surprise us a bit. But given all the dynamics that we're looking at right now, we think 20% is probably the right number.
Christophe Fouquet: You know, if we look at 2026, we know that the memory demand will be very, very tight, because our customer are saying that publicly. So there is a huge appetite, and it started most probably end of last year for our DRAM customer to really build up capacity as quickly as possible... That's the dynamic we are in, and which, of course, has a major positive benefit for ASML.
You know, if we look at 2026, we know that the memory demand will be very, very tight, because our customer are saying that publicly. So there is a huge appetite, and it started most probably end of last year for our DRAM customer to really build up capacity as quickly as possible... That's the dynamic we are in, and which, of course, has a major positive benefit for ASML.
Speaker #3: Which, by the way, still gives you at the midpoint close to $7.5 billion of sales. So it's not in any way falling off a cliff.
Speaker #3: But it is reduced in comparison to what it was last year, so it's more a normalization than that anything very spectacular is going on.
Speaker #3: There. I saw a lot of interest in the room.
Speaker #4: So, let's go back to the room. Dan?
Monique Mols: Okay, thank you. Mark, in a row? I see some hands.
Monique Mols: Okay, thank you. Mark, in a row? I see some hands.
Speaker #2: Yes, thank you. Dan from a few tweakers. I have two questions. The first one is, you mentioned that the EUV business will grow quite rapidly this year.
Sylvester Claassens: Hi, Sylvester Claassens, Studio040. How does the stabilizing AI market influence the perspective of the amount of jobs you're about growing in Eindhoven?
Silvester Klaasman: Hi, Sylvester Klaasman, Studio040. How does the stabilizing AI market influence the perspective of the amount of jobs you're about growing in Eindhoven?
Speaker #2: I was wondering what share of that will be high-NA. I think you mentioned this is really a preparation year for the coming years for insertion.
Speaker #2: So, wondering: how many machines do you plan to ship this year? And the second one is, do you have a progress update on Hyper NA, since this is the year you will make a firm decision on it?
Christophe Fouquet: Well, so if you look at the big picture, so I mention again, you know, our long-term forecast as we establish it in November 2024, where we still see us going towards EUR 44 to 60 billion revenue, which means that we see still need for more capacity. Even as we speak, this year, we will be adding jobs in manufacturing, in customer service, in order to support basically that need. So I would say the long-term trajectory is still a trajectory of growth. We take today a very specific action on a very, very focused part of the organization, which is the technology team, and in fact, even focus specifically on the leadership of the technology team.
Christophe Fouquet: Well, so if you look at the big picture, so I mention again, you know, our long-term forecast as we establish it in November 2024, where we still see us going towards EUR 44 to 60 billion revenue, which means that we see still need for more capacity. Even as we speak, this year, we will be adding jobs in manufacturing, in customer service, in order to support basically that need. So I would say the long-term trajectory is still a trajectory of growth. We take today a very specific action on a very, very focused part of the organization, which is the technology team, and in fact, even focus specifically on the leadership of the technology team.
Speaker #2: And maybe
Speaker #2: the common platform as well. I think the first one you take, the second
Speaker #6: One. So, on the other way around, we're trained. So the vast share of the growth will clearly be in, will clearly be in, low NA.
Speaker #6: So that's where because it all goes into high volume manufacturing. Because there is such a big need for customers to grow there. So that sort of lion's share goes high NA will just continue to go along the lines of what Christophe has described earlier phases and we're not yet in the high volume on, which is the three manufacturing phase.
Speaker #6: Although, as we did point out, the fact that one customer has accepted and signed off on the 5,200B—our first high-volume manufacturing tool—of course, is an important step in that direction.
Speaker #6: But the lion's share of the growth this year will be low.
Christophe Fouquet: But it doesn't change fundamentally our growth trajectory, and therefore our commitment to people, but also, as I've shown, to footprint, et cetera, et cetera. The supply chain I could add to that. And I think it's very important to understand that even as a company grow and is very successful, there's still a need once a while to make sure that some of the key elements of the company, and for us, that's the technology. Technology is really our heart. We have to make sure that, you know, we keep the heart in the best possible shape. And the action we are taking today is difficult, is painful, but the intention is to make sure that that innovation engine keeps going, so that, you know, as the market grow, we keep our very strong leader-leadership position in the, in the market.
But it doesn't change fundamentally our growth trajectory, and therefore our commitment to people, but also, as I've shown, to footprint, et cetera, et cetera. The supply chain I could add to that. And I think it's very important to understand that even as a company grow and is very successful, there's still a need once a while to make sure that some of the key elements of the company, and for us, that's the technology. Technology is really our heart. We have to make sure that, you know, we keep the heart in the best possible shape. And the action we are taking today is difficult, is painful, but the intention is to make sure that that innovation engine keeps going, so that, you know, as the market grow, we keep our very strong leader-leadership position in the, in the market.
Speaker #6: NA. Yeah.
Speaker #3: And hyper NA—so before I go there, I need to take a bit of a step back. So we talk about low NA, we talk about high NA.
Speaker #3: I think we talked about Hyper NA because we see that in the future, there may be a need for an even more advanced litho system.
Speaker #3: And we could end up in a world, I'm talking 10 years from now, where customers use basically each one of those three systems. Now, this being said, when you look 10 years ahead, it's very difficult to know exactly when this will happen.
Speaker #3: And in order to not have to answer that question today, what we did is develop a program, which we call the High Productivity Platform. So Roger mentioned it as one of the key programs in EUV.
Speaker #3: And that program basically consists in defining an EUV platform that will come to the market early next decade, and that will be able to support low NA, with major productivity improvement.
Monique Mols: Okay. Sure.
Monique Mols: Okay. Sure.
Mark Huijink: Hi, Mark Huijink, NRC. I have two questions, one relating to the reorganization, and the other one is to being prepared to this huge demand in new machines. First of all, the reorganization refer to the technology team. Does it mean that something changes within the internal structure as well, regarding D&E or R&D? And other question is, when it comes to being prepared for this new upcycle, is your supply chain also prepared? So did you do some stockpiling there, or is everybody... Does everybody has to expand?
Marc Hijink: Hi, Mark Hijink, NRC. I have two questions, one relating to the reorganization, and the other one is to being prepared to this huge demand in new machines. First of all, the reorganization refer to the technology team. Does it mean that something changes within the internal structure as well, regarding D&E or R&D? And other question is, when it comes to being prepared for this new upcycle, is your supply chain also prepared? So did you do some stockpiling there, or is everybody... Does everybody has to expand?
Speaker #3: We look at more than 400 wafers per hour, high NA, also with major improvement. And potentially hyper NA. So we're designing a platform, basically, that will be able to receive ultimately low NA optic, high NA optic, hyper NA optic.
Speaker #3: And this gives us basically the full flexibility of time to decide exactly when and how we should introduce Hyper NA. So the team has done a lot of work.
Speaker #3: So, if you talk to our engineers, they'll tell you we could do it tomorrow. But there is no need for it tomorrow. So what we will do is, again, just continue to prepare for it.
Christophe Fouquet: I'll take the first one, and I'll leave you the second one. So I think the short answer to your first question is yes. I think that the transformation, the change in the organization will be mostly around D&E. Not only, but mostly around D&E. The leadership I was referring to is mostly within D&E. That's also why Marco, our CTO, together with Jo Smits, are taking the lead also on that activity. But since, you know, innovation is the heart of the company, everything else is connected to that. And, you know, by improving the organization, the D&E organization, we also improve the interfaces with operation, we improve the interfaces with our customer, and we improve the interfaces with our supplier, right?
Christophe Fouquet: I'll take the first one, and I'll leave you the second one. So I think the short answer to your first question is yes. I think that the transformation, the change in the organization will be mostly around D&E. Not only, but mostly around D&E. The leadership I was referring to is mostly within D&E. That's also why Marco, our CTO, together with Jo Smits, are taking the lead also on that activity. But since, you know, innovation is the heart of the company, everything else is connected to that. And, you know, by improving the organization, the D&E organization, we also improve the interfaces with operation, we improve the interfaces with our customer, and we improve the interfaces with our supplier, right?
Speaker #3: If you follow technical conferences, there will be a presentation on that at SPIE in a few weeks from now. So you get a bit more, but the key is to be prepared basically to serve the whole market with EUV.
Speaker #3: And the high-productivity platform program we have put in place, and we're executing on, allows us to do that exactly.
Speaker #4: Yep. I have a question from online, and then I'll get to you, Toby. Maybe you can do this quickly, but I think it's a question that a lot of people ask themselves.
Speaker #4: This is from Luzine Nouvel in France. You're going to cut 1,700 jobs. But you say you want more engineers. Are you planning to hire in 2026 and beyond?
Speaker #4: And if so, do you have a figure? Will this offset the 1,700 job cuts? Or will ASML's workforce ultimately...
Speaker #4: decrease? Yeah.
Speaker #2: So, I think two-step. So first, as I explained, we three, practically about 3,000 people out of the action we take on the leadership in the technology team.
Christophe Fouquet: So all the people who told us, basically, "You've got to do something better," should benefit from that. So a lot of the work will be focused on D&E. In fact, you know, what we talk about today, I would say, practically doesn't concern the very large majority of the team ASML, but the impact, I think, will go beyond D&E.
So all the people who told us, basically, "You've got to do something better," should benefit from that. So a lot of the work will be focused on D&E. In fact, you know, what we talk about today, I would say, practically doesn't concern the very large majority of the team ASML, but the impact, I think, will go beyond D&E.
Speaker #2: And out of those 3,000 people, we already created 1,400 positions. So that's the first thing. The second thing I have said is that a lot of that is done to enable, I would say, the full potential of our engineers.
Speaker #2: So our engineers tell us today, well, maybe we spend 20%, 30% of our time not doing engineering, but doing meetings, talking to many different managers, et cetera, et cetera.
Roger Dassen: Mark, on the capacity, what we've done, as you know, in the past couple of years, is to put in what we call the long lead time items, which means that everything that takes, let's say, longer than 12, 18 months to realize is in place in order to get to a much higher volume. So that means factory space, et cetera, et cetera. We've done that, and we've worked with our supply chain for them to do that as well. So what we're doing now, you know, based on the very strong signals that we're getting from our customers, and also them indicating that they believe this development is sustainable, we're now making sure that every quarter we increase our move rate. Because as you will appreciate, you cannot move from 44 units in 2025 to 80 units in 2026.
Roger Dassen: Mark, on the capacity, what we've done, as you know, in the past couple of years, is to put in what we call the long lead time items, which means that everything that takes, let's say, longer than 12, 18 months to realize is in place in order to get to a much higher volume. So that means factory space, et cetera, et cetera. We've done that, and we've worked with our supply chain for them to do that as well. So what we're doing now, you know, based on the very strong signals that we're getting from our customers, and also them indicating that they believe this development is sustainable, we're now making sure that every quarter we increase our move rate. Because as you will appreciate, you cannot move from 44 units in 2025 to 80 units in 2026.
Speaker #2: Well, if we take that away from them, we give them also more bandwidth for development. So we also expect, basically, that our engineering workforce will be able to create more moving forward with the same amount of people.
Speaker #2: So this means that as we go through this transformation, we get 1,400 more people. And we get a lot more of everyone else in the organization.
Speaker #2: How this will really play out, we don't know. But we believe that this could fuel quite a few of our programs basically moving forward.
Roger Dassen: Doesn't work that way. So you gradually need to crank up your move rate, and that's exactly what we're doing right now. We're doing that. We have a very solid understanding also with our supply chain. They're doing the same thing, and that will lead to a, you know, a very, very meaningful increase in our capacity this year, but also moving forward.
Doesn't work that way. So you gradually need to crank up your move rate, and that's exactly what we're doing right now. We're doing that. We have a very solid understanding also with our supply chain. They're doing the same thing, and that will lead to a, you know, a very, very meaningful increase in our capacity this year, but also moving forward.
Speaker #2: So, we will continue to hire people based on our needs. And we do that today in operations. We'll do that if we need to in D&E.
Speaker #2: Because we can afford it also, let's be honest. But we also expect that at least in the next couple of years, the gain we could make by enabling our engineers to the full extent will create a lot more bandwidth for us to develop.
Monique Mols: I'm gonna go to one online and then get back to you. Could you share how ASML's R&D spending is currently divided between EUV-related development and non-EUV technologies? This is a question from the Chemical Daily in Tokyo, and we have a lot of people from Japan online watching us, so that's really nice.
Monique Mols: I'm gonna go to one online and then get back to you. Could you share how ASML's R&D spending is currently divided between EUV-related development and non-EUV technologies? This is a question from the Chemical Daily in Tokyo, and we have a lot of people from Japan online watching us, so that's really nice.
Speaker #4: OK. That's clear. Thank you.
Speaker #4: Toby. Hi.
Speaker #3: This is Toby from Reuters. Toby Sterling. Oddball question. The only thing that did better than ASML's price in the past year is gold and silver.
Speaker #3: So, I'm wondering if you guys can maybe say—not so much ASML specifically—but how is this going to affect your industry, the rise in price for precious metals?
Roger Dassen: The lion's share of the R&D expense really is in EUV, right? Because on EUV we have, you know, both High-NA; we have the Low-NA platform that where we still see a lot of potential to develop that, and we're also working on what we call the high-perform platform. So we have three very significant work streams in the D&E organization to focus on EUV. So without a doubt, EUV is the lion's share of the development. But that said, we do have roadmaps for the other products as well. You heard us talked about the two sixty. You might have heard about the eight seventy, which is a platform that really significantly increases the output capability in the dry business. So we're working there as well.
Roger Dassen: The lion's share of the R&D expense really is in EUV, right? Because on EUV we have, you know, both High-NA; we have the Low-NA platform that where we still see a lot of potential to develop that, and we're also working on what we call the high-perform platform. So we have three very significant work streams in the D&E organization to focus on EUV. So without a doubt, EUV is the lion's share of the development. But that said, we do have roadmaps for the other products as well. You heard us talked about the two sixty. You might have heard about the eight seventy, which is a platform that really significantly increases the output capability in the dry business. So we're working there as well.
Speaker #2: Gold and silver, I would say our industry overall—I think it's very small. I think it's very, very small. I think from all the things we worry about, I'll tell you something.
Speaker #2: We worry a lot more about energy costs than gold or silver, because energy is, as we've discussed in the past, most probably—we love AI.
Speaker #2: We love the opportunity. I think Elon Musk said that also last week in Davos. But energy is most probably the one thing to watch to make sure that this industry keeps going.
Roger Dassen: Lion's share is really focused on EUV.
Lion's share is really focused on EUV.
Speaker #2: And now, the good news for us is one way to reduce energy consumption is to move to more advanced chips, because they basically reduce power consumption.
Christophe Fouquet: Nils Waarlo, Volkskrant. I had a question about the China business, which is going down quite dramatically. I was wondering whether it's also going down in absolute numbers, and if that's the case, what's driving that? Whether it's just still a backlog thing or whether something else is going on as well.
Niels Waarlo: Nils Waarlo, Volkskrant. I had a question about the China business, which is going down quite dramatically. I was wondering whether it's also going down in absolute numbers, and if that's the case, what's driving that? Whether it's just still a backlog thing or whether something else is going on as well.
Speaker #2: So that's also an opportunity. But I think there's one thing this industry has to worry about: energy. Cost. And I would even say availability.
Speaker #2: Gold, silver—I think we're OK.
Roger Dassen: Well, it is going down in absolute numbers as well, right? So if you do the math on the system sales, if you take the chart, you take the percentage, and you apply it to the total system sales, you would see that actually it goes down in system sales. I think something like EUR 850 million. But you can do the math yourself and verify whether my memory serves me well here. But it is clearly going down from 2024 to 2025, and also at the 20% number that we indicated for this year, it will go down further. What's going on there? Well, first of all, it's normalizing, right? Because I think the reality is, we should ask ourselves the question, what was going on in previous years?
Roger Dassen: Well, it is going down in absolute numbers as well, right? So if you do the math on the system sales, if you take the chart, you take the percentage, and you apply it to the total system sales, you would see that actually it goes down in system sales. I think something like EUR 850 million. But you can do the math yourself and verify whether my memory serves me well here. But it is clearly going down from 2024 to 2025, and also at the 20% number that we indicated for this year, it will go down further. What's going on there? Well, first of all, it's normalizing, right? Because I think the reality is, we should ask ourselves the question, what was going on in previous years?
Speaker #4: Go
Speaker #4: ahead. Hi.
Speaker #3: Paul Vergerve from Bits and Chips. Do you expect to max out on capacity this year? And if so, what will be the bottleneck?
Speaker #2: I think the question is not necessarily just for us, whether we're going to be maxed out. I mean, it will be a very busy year.
Speaker #2: That's for sure. But I think in everyone trying to drive out capability, we also need to look at our customers. So I think everyone will be scrambling to get more capacity.
Speaker #2: It starts with our customers. Because we can ship tools, but our customers also need to be in a position to receive them. And therefore, they need the fabs to be done.
Roger Dassen: What was going on in previous years is that over the COVID period, we built up a huge backlog because we. And in fact, we under-served the Chinese market during the COVID days. As a result of that, a huge backlog has been built, and we have been executing on that backlog in the past couple of years. So at a certain point in time, we already expected China to normalize. Frankly, the very strong China sales still in 2025 surprises a bit. But given all the dynamics that we're looking at right now, we think 20% is probably the right number. Which, by the way, still gives you, you know, at the midpoint, close to EUR 7.5 billion of sales.
What was going on in previous years is that over the COVID period, we built up a huge backlog because we. And in fact, we under-served the Chinese market during the COVID days. As a result of that, a huge backlog has been built, and we have been executing on that backlog in the past couple of years. So at a certain point in time, we already expected China to normalize. Frankly, the very strong China sales still in 2025 surprises a bit. But given all the dynamics that we're looking at right now, we think 20% is probably the right number. Which, by the way, still gives you, you know, at the midpoint, close to EUR 7.5 billion of sales.
Speaker #2: So, I think that's what's going on. We will work extremely hard to get as much out as we can, and as our customers are asking for it.
Speaker #2: But I think an important factor will be when our customers have their fabs ready to really receive those tools.
Speaker #4: OK. We have four minutes left, so let's go back to the room again.
Speaker #3: Hi. Stan Hilsen, of the Dutch public broadcaster NOS. About the reorganization, I was wondering if you could share some insight on how you ended up in the situation in the first place?
Speaker #3: Why did you create so many leadership roles in the past months or years? And can you give us a time frame on when the reorganization will be executed?
Roger Dassen: So it's not in any way falling off a cliff, right? But it is reduced in comparison to what it was last year. So it's more a normalization than that anything very spectacular is going on there.
So it's not in any way falling off a cliff, right? But it is reduced in comparison to what it was last year. So it's more a normalization than that anything very spectacular is going on there.
Speaker #2: Yeah, it's always a good question. And if you look at the growth of a company, I think at any point in time, you try to make the best decision for the company.
Monique Mols: I saw a lot of interest in the room, so let's go back to the room. Dan?
Monique Mols: I saw a lot of interest in the room, so let's go back to the room. Dan?
Speaker #2: And I think this has been done. But, as with any large company, you tend to have side jobs over time with the belief that they really help.
Dan: Yes, thank you. Dan from Achiev Twickers. I have two questions. First one is, you mentioned that the EUV business will grow quite rapidly this year. I was wondering what share of that will be high NA. You know, I think you mentioned this is really a preparation year for the coming years for insertion. So I'm wondering, you know, how many machines do you plan to ship this year? And the second one is, do you have a progress update on High NA, since the year you will make a firm decision on it, and maybe the common platform as well.
[Analyst]: Yes, thank you. Dan from Achiev Twickers. I have two questions. First one is, you mentioned that the EUV business will grow quite rapidly this year. I was wondering what share of that will be high NA. You know, I think you mentioned this is really a preparation year for the coming years for insertion. So I'm wondering, you know, how many machines do you plan to ship this year? And the second one is, do you have a progress update on High NA, since the year you will make a firm decision on it, and maybe the common platform as well.
Speaker #2: And I think, to some extent, they do at the beginning. Because you strengthen a certain axis, right? You strengthen, I don't know, quality. You strengthen maybe the execution of part of the company.
Roger Dassen: I'll take the first one, you take the second one. So on the,
Roger Dassen: I'll take the first one, you take the second one. So on the,
Speaker #2: But there is a point in time where you add—if you had too many of different axes, then people get confused. And we started to get that signal, I would say, already for two, three years.
Christophe Fouquet: The other way around.
Christophe Fouquet: The other way around.
Roger Dassen: Oh, the other way around. We're trained, so the vast share of the growth will clearly be in Low-NA, right? So that's where, you know, because it's all- it all goes into high volume manufacturing, because there is such a big need for our customers to grow there. So that's where the lion's share goes. High-NA will just continue to go along the lines of what Christophe has described earlier on, which is the three phases. And we're not yet in the high volume manufacturing phase, although, as we did point out, you know, the fact that one customer has accepted, signed off on the 5200B, our first high volume manufacturing tool, of course, is an important step in that direction.
Roger Dassen: Oh, the other way around. We're trained, so the vast share of the growth will clearly be in Low-NA, right? So that's where, you know, because it's all- it all goes into high volume manufacturing, because there is such a big need for our customers to grow there. So that's where the lion's share goes. High-NA will just continue to go along the lines of what Christophe has described earlier on, which is the three phases. And we're not yet in the high volume manufacturing phase, although, as we did point out, you know, the fact that one customer has accepted, signed off on the 5200B, our first high volume manufacturing tool, of course, is an important step in that direction.
Speaker #2: We spent quite some time. Because the next question could be, how do you know now that the next thing could be better than the previous one, which is another very good question?
Speaker #2: And we didn't want to rush in that. And we spent more than 12 months designing—not in the board of management, but designing with the people that are working day after day in technology, but also in the sector.
Speaker #2: Because of the connection I talked about. So we spent more than 12 months working with those people to try to drive an organization that they believed will fit better what they need.
Roger Dassen: But the lion's share of the growth this year will be, will be Low-NA.
But the lion's share of the growth this year will be, will be Low-NA.
Christophe Fouquet: Yeah, and on the Hyper-NA, so before I go there, I, you know, I, I need to take a bit of step back. So we, we talk about Low-NA, we talk about High-NA. I think we talked about Hyper-NA, because we see that in the future, there may be a need for even a more advanced litho system. And we could end up in a world, I'm talking 10 years from now, where, you know, customer use basically each one of those three system. Now, this being said, when you look 10 years ahead, it's very difficult to know exactly when this will happen. And in order to not have to answer that question today, what we did is develop a program which we call High Productivity Platform. So Roger mentioned it as one of the key program in EUV.
Christophe Fouquet: Yeah, and on the Hyper-NA, so before I go there, I, you know, I, I need to take a bit of step back. So we, we talk about Low-NA, we talk about High-NA. I think we talked about Hyper-NA, because we see that in the future, there may be a need for even a more advanced litho system. And we could end up in a world, I'm talking 10 years from now, where, you know, customer use basically each one of those three system. Now, this being said, when you look 10 years ahead, it's very difficult to know exactly when this will happen. And in order to not have to answer that question today, what we did is develop a program which we call High Productivity Platform. So Roger mentioned it as one of the key program in EUV.
Speaker #2: And I think we need to make sure, over time, that we keep on scanning the organization so that if we made maybe some non-optimized move in the past, we can correct it.
Speaker #2: So, I think it's very normal in a company. What is not right is not to correct things if you feel they're not helping you anymore.
Speaker #2: So, I think it's very normal in a company. What is not right is not to correct things if you feel they're not helping you.
Speaker #3: I think if you look in any rapidly growing organization—where do organizations grow? They grow because the number of competencies grow, or products become far more complex as a result of that.
Speaker #3: Also, the competencies that are necessary to get it done become more complex. Fifteen years ago, software, for instance, was not as important as it is today.
Christophe Fouquet: That program basically consists in defining an EUV platform that will come to the market, you know, early next decade, and that will be able to support Low-NA with major productivity improvement. We look at more than 400 wafers per hour. High-NA, also with major improvement, and potentially Hyper-NA. So we're designing a platform, basically, that will be able to receive ultimately Low-NA optic, High-NA optic, and Hyper-NA optic. And this give us basically the full flexibility over time to decide exactly when and how we should introduce Hyper-NA. So the team has done a lot of work. So if you talk to our engineers, they'll tell you, we could do it tomorrow, but there's no need for it tomorrow. So what we will do is, again, just continue to prepare for it.
That program basically consists in defining an EUV platform that will come to the market, you know, early next decade, and that will be able to support Low-NA with major productivity improvement. We look at more than 400 wafers per hour. High-NA, also with major improvement, and potentially Hyper-NA. So we're designing a platform, basically, that will be able to receive ultimately Low-NA optic, High-NA optic, and Hyper-NA optic. And this give us basically the full flexibility over time to decide exactly when and how we should introduce Hyper-NA. So the team has done a lot of work. So if you talk to our engineers, they'll tell you, we could do it tomorrow, but there's no need for it tomorrow. So what we will do is, again, just continue to prepare for it.
Speaker #3: Just to call out one. So you see an expansion of capability, and you see an expansion of a roadmap—many, many more products on the roadmap than we ever had before.
Speaker #3: The answer to something like that, that any rapidly growing organization does, is a matrix organization where the competencies and the products meet each other.
Speaker #3: So that's your answer. And that gives you scalability for a while. But there is a point in time where a matrix organization, any matrix organization, becomes so complex that you've got to act.
Speaker #3: And I think that's the journey that we've been on. That's the thing that we've now concluded, and hence, the action that Christophe calls out.
Speaker #3: And I think the worst thing you can do is not recognize the issue and just continue to go on as you did before.
Speaker #3: In terms of OK, timing—because that was your other question—I mean, that completely depends on the negotiations that are currently going on at the unions, with the workers' council, et cetera.
Christophe Fouquet: If you follow technical conference, there will be a presentation on that at SPA in a few weeks from now, so you get a bit more, a bit more. But the key is to, you know, is to be prepared, basically, to serve the whole market with EUV and the high productivity platform program we have put in place and we're executing on, allow us to do that exactly.
If you follow technical conference, there will be a presentation on that at SPA in a few weeks from now, so you get a bit more, a bit more. But the key is to, you know, is to be prepared, basically, to serve the whole market with EUV and the high productivity platform program we have put in place and we're executing on, allow us to do that exactly.
Speaker #3: But this will definitely be a number of
Speaker #3: Months. OK. From our vantage point, as soon as possible, because we want to be able to provide clarity to everyone in the organization and get rid of the uncertainty at the personal level.
Speaker #3: So that's why we would like to push as soon as we can, in the interest of the people that are affected.
Monique Mols: Yep. I have a question from online, and then I'll-
Monique Mols: Yep. I have a question from online, and then I'll-
Speaker #4: OK. Our time is up. Thank you very much for coming. Thank you, everyone online, for watching. You can still send us your questions; the media team is available for you.
Christophe Fouquet: Mm-hmm.
Monique Mols: ... I'll get to you, Toby. Maybe we can do this quickly, but I think it's a question that a lot of people ask themselves. This is from L'Usine Nouvelle in France. You're going to cut 1,700 jobs, but you say you want more engineers. Are you planning to hire in 2026 and beyond? And if so, do you have a figure? Will this offset the 1,700 job cuts, or will ASML's workforce ultimately decrease?
... I'll get to you, Toby. Maybe we can do this quickly, but I think it's a question that a lot of people ask themselves. This is from L'Usine Nouvelle in France. You're going to cut 1,700 jobs, but you say you want more engineers. Are you planning to hire in 2026 and beyond? And if so, do you have a figure? Will this offset the 1,700 job cuts, or will ASML's workforce ultimately decrease?
Speaker #4: And for those in the room, nice you're here. There’s coffee, and we have some chats with some of you. And we look forward to seeing you next year.
Speaker #3: Thank
Christophe Fouquet: Yeah. So I think two step. So first, as I explained, we free practically about 3,000 people out of the action we take on the leadership in the technology team. And out of those 3,000 people, we already create 1,400 position. So that's the first thing. The second thing I've said is, that a lot of that is down to enable, I would say, the full potential of our engineers. So our engineers tell us today: "Well, you know, maybe we spend 20, 30 percent of our time not doing engineering but doing meetings, talking to many different managers, et cetera, et cetera." Well, if we take that away from them, we give them also more bandwidth for development. So we also expect basically that our engineering workforce will be able to create more moving forward for the same amount of people.
Christophe Fouquet: Yeah. So I think two step. So first, as I explained, we free practically about 3,000 people out of the action we take on the leadership in the technology team. And out of those 3,000 people, we already create 1,400 position. So that's the first thing. The second thing I've said is, that a lot of that is down to enable, I would say, the full potential of our engineers. So our engineers tell us today: "Well, you know, maybe we spend 20, 30 percent of our time not doing engineering but doing meetings, talking to many different managers, et cetera, et cetera." Well, if we take that away from them, we give them also more bandwidth for development. So we also expect basically that our engineering workforce will be able to create more moving forward for the same amount of people.
Christophe Fouquet: So this means that as we go through this, transformation, we get 1,400 more people, and we get a lot more of everyone else in the organization. How this will really play out, we don't know, but we believe that this could fuel quite a few of our program, basically moving forward. So we will continue to hire people based on our needs, and we do that today, on operation. We'll do that if we need to on, D&E, because we can afford it also, let's be honest. But we also expect that at least the next couple of years, the, the gain we could make by enabling our engineers to the full extent, will create a lot more bandwidth for us to, to develop.
So this means that as we go through this, transformation, we get 1,400 more people, and we get a lot more of everyone else in the organization. How this will really play out, we don't know, but we believe that this could fuel quite a few of our program, basically moving forward. So we will continue to hire people based on our needs, and we do that today, on operation. We'll do that if we need to on, D&E, because we can afford it also, let's be honest. But we also expect that at least the next couple of years, the, the gain we could make by enabling our engineers to the full extent, will create a lot more bandwidth for us to, to develop.
Toby Sterling: Hi, this is Toby from Reuters. Toby, Toby Sterling. Oddball question: the only thing that did better than ASML's price in the past year is gold and silver. So I'm wondering if you guys can maybe say, maybe not so much ASML, but how is this gonna affect your industry, the rise in price for gold and precious metals?
Toby Sterling: Hi, this is Toby from Reuters. Toby, Toby Sterling. Oddball question: the only thing that did better than ASML's price in the past year is gold and silver. So I'm wondering if you guys can maybe say, maybe not so much ASML, but how is this gonna affect your industry, the rise in price for gold and precious metals?
Christophe Fouquet: Gold and silver, I would say, our industry overall, I, I think it's very small. I think it's very, very small. I think from all the things we worry about, I tell you something, we worry a lot more about energy costs than gold or silver. Because, energy is, as we've discussed in the past, most probably... Yeah, we, we love AI, we love the opportunity. I think Elon Musk said that also, last week in Davos, but energy is most probably the one thing to watch, to make sure that this, industry keeps going. And now the good news for us, is one way to reduce, energy consumption, is to move to more advanced chips, because they reduce, basically, power consumption. So that's also an opportunity.
Christophe Fouquet: Gold and silver, I would say, our industry overall, I, I think it's very small. I think it's very, very small. I think from all the things we worry about, I tell you something, we worry a lot more about energy costs than gold or silver. Because, energy is, as we've discussed in the past, most probably... Yeah, we, we love AI, we love the opportunity. I think Elon Musk said that also, last week in Davos, but energy is most probably the one thing to watch, to make sure that this, industry keeps going. And now the good news for us, is one way to reduce, energy consumption, is to move to more advanced chips, because they reduce, basically, power consumption. So that's also an opportunity.
Christophe Fouquet: But I think if there's one thing this industry has to worry about as a whole, is energy cost, and I would even say availability. Gold, silver, I think we're okay.
But I think if there's one thing this industry has to worry about as a whole, is energy cost, and I would even say availability. Gold, silver, I think we're okay.
Monique Mols: Go ahead.
Monique Mols: Go ahead.
Paul van Gerven: Hi, Paul van Gerven from Bits&Chips. Do you expect to max out on capacity this year? And if so, what will be the bottleneck?
Paul van Gerven: Hi, Paul van Gerven from Bits&Chips. Do you expect to max out on capacity this year? And if so, what will be the bottleneck?
Roger Dassen: I think the question is not necessarily just for us, whether we're going to be maxed out. I mean, it will be a very busy year, that's for sure. But I think in everyone trying to drive up capability, we also need to look at our customers. So I think everyone will be scrambling to get more, to get more capacity. It starts with our customers, because we can ship tools, but our customers also need to be in a position to receive them, and therefore, they need the fabs to be done. So I think that's what's going on. We will work extremely hard to get, you know, as much out as we can, and as our customers are asking for it.
Roger Dassen: I think the question is not necessarily just for us, whether we're going to be maxed out. I mean, it will be a very busy year, that's for sure. But I think in everyone trying to drive up capability, we also need to look at our customers. So I think everyone will be scrambling to get more, to get more capacity. It starts with our customers, because we can ship tools, but our customers also need to be in a position to receive them, and therefore, they need the fabs to be done. So I think that's what's going on. We will work extremely hard to get, you know, as much out as we can, and as our customers are asking for it.
Roger Dassen: But I think an important factor will be, you know, when will our customers have their fabs ready to really receive those tools?
But I think an important factor will be, you know, when will our customers have their fabs ready to really receive those tools?
Monique Mols: We have 4 minutes left, so let's go back to the room again.
Monique Mols: We have 4 minutes left, so let's go back to the room again.
Stan Hilson: Hi, Stan Hilson of the Dutch Public Broadcaster, NOS. About the reorganization, I was wondering if you could share some insights on how did you end up in this situation in the first place? Why did you create so many leadership roles in the past months or years? And can you give us a timeframe on when the reorganization will be executed?
Stan Hulsen: Hi, Stan Hulsen of the Dutch Public Broadcaster, NOS. About the reorganization, I was wondering if you could share some insights on how did you end up in this situation in the first place? Why did you create so many leadership roles in the past months or years? And can you give us a timeframe on when the reorganization will be executed?
Christophe Fouquet: Yeah, it's always a good question, and, you know, if you look at the growth of a company, I think at any point of time, you try to make the best decision for the company. And I think this has been done. But as any large company, you tend to add side job over time, with the belief that they really help. And I think to some extent, they do at the beginning, because you strengthen a certain axis, right? You strengthen, I don't know, quality, you strengthen maybe, you know, the execution of part of the, of the company. But there is a point of time where you add, if you had too many of different axes, then people get confused. And we started to get that signal, I would say, already for two, three years.
Christophe Fouquet: Yeah, it's always a good question, and, you know, if you look at the growth of a company, I think at any point of time, you try to make the best decision for the company. And I think this has been done. But as any large company, you tend to add side job over time, with the belief that they really help. And I think to some extent, they do at the beginning, because you strengthen a certain axis, right? You strengthen, I don't know, quality, you strengthen maybe, you know, the execution of part of the, of the company. But there is a point of time where you add, if you had too many of different axes, then people get confused. And we started to get that signal, I would say, already for two, three years.
Christophe Fouquet: We spent quite some time, because the next question could be, you know, "How do you know now that the next things will be better than the previous one?" Which is another very good question. And we didn't want to rush in that, and we spent more than 12 months designing, not in the board of management, but designing with the people that are working day, you know, after day in technology, but also in the sector, because of the connection I talked about. So we spent more than 12 months working with those people, to try to drive an organization that they believed will fit better what they need. And I think we need to, you know, make sure over time that we keep on scanning the organization, so that, you know, if we made maybe some non-optimized move in the past, we can correct it.
We spent quite some time, because the next question could be, you know, "How do you know now that the next things will be better than the previous one?" Which is another very good question. And we didn't want to rush in that, and we spent more than 12 months designing, not in the board of management, but designing with the people that are working day, you know, after day in technology, but also in the sector, because of the connection I talked about. So we spent more than 12 months working with those people, to try to drive an organization that they believed will fit better what they need. And I think we need to, you know, make sure over time that we keep on scanning the organization, so that, you know, if we made maybe some non-optimized move in the past, we can correct it.
Christophe Fouquet: So I think it's very normal in a company. What is not right, is not to correct things if you feel they are not helping you anymore.
So I think it's very normal in a company. What is not right, is not to correct things if you feel they are not helping you anymore.
Roger Dassen: I think if you look in any rapidly growing organization, where do organizations grow? They grow because the number of competencies grow, or products become far more complex. As a result of that, also, the competencies that are necessary to get it done, become more complex. 50 years ago, software, for instance, was not as important as it is, today, just to call out one. So you see an expansion of capability, and you see an expansion of a roadmap. Many, many more products on the roadmap than we ever had before.... The answer to something like that, that any rapidly, rapidly growing organization does, is a matrix organization, where the competencies and the products, meet, meet, meet each other. So that's, that's your answer, and that gives you scalability for a while.
Roger Dassen: I think if you look in any rapidly growing organization, where do organizations grow? They grow because the number of competencies grow, or products become far more complex. As a result of that, also, the competencies that are necessary to get it done, become more complex. 50 years ago, software, for instance, was not as important as it is, today, just to call out one. So you see an expansion of capability, and you see an expansion of a roadmap. Many, many more products on the roadmap than we ever had before.... The answer to something like that, that any rapidly, rapidly growing organization does, is a matrix organization, where the competencies and the products, meet, meet, meet each other. So that's, that's your answer, and that gives you scalability for a while.
Roger Dassen: But there is a point in time where a matrix organization, any matrix organization, becomes so complex that you gotta act. And I think that's, that's the journey that we've been on. That's the thing that we've now concluded, and hence the action that Christophe calls out. And I think the worst thing you can do is not recognize the issue and just continue to go on as, as you did before.
But there is a point in time where a matrix organization, any matrix organization, becomes so complex that you gotta act. And I think that's, that's the journey that we've been on. That's the thing that we've now concluded, and hence the action that Christophe calls out. And I think the worst thing you can do is not recognize the issue and just continue to go on as, as you did before.
Monique Mols: Okay.
Monique Mols: Okay.
Roger Dassen: In terms of timing, 'cause that was your other question. I mean, that completely depends on the negotiations that are currently going on with the unions, with the workers' council, et cetera, but this will definitely be a number of months.
Roger Dassen: In terms of timing, 'cause that was your other question. I mean, that completely depends on the negotiations that are currently going on with the unions, with the workers' council, et cetera, but this will definitely be a number of months.
Monique Mols: Okay.
Roger Dassen: From our vantage point, as soon as possible, because we wanna be able to provide clarity to everyone in the organization and, you know, get rid of the uncertainty at the personal level. So that's why we would like to push, you know, as soon as we can in the interest of the people that are affected.
From our vantage point, as soon as possible, because we wanna be able to provide clarity to everyone in the organization and, you know, get rid of the uncertainty at the personal level. So that's why we would like to push, you know, as soon as we can in the interest of the people that are affected.
Monique Mols: Okay. Our time is up. Thank you very much for coming. Thank you everyone online for watching. You can still, you know, send us your question. The media team is available for you. For those in the room, nice you're here. There's coffee, and we have some chats with some of you, and we look forward to seeing you next year. Thank you very much.
Monique Mols: Okay. Our time is up. Thank you very much for coming. Thank you everyone online for watching. You can still, you know, send us your question. The media team is available for you. For those in the room, nice you're here. There's coffee, and we have some chats with some of you, and we look forward to seeing you next year. Thank you very much.
