Q4 2025 BE Semiconductor Industries NV Earnings Call

February 19, 2026

[Company Representative] (BE Semiconductor Industries N.V.): Good morning, good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to Besi's quarterly conference call and audio webcast to discuss the company's 2025 Q4 and full year results. You can register for the conference call or log in to the audio webcast via Besi's website, www.besi.com. Joining us today are Mr. Richard Blickman, Chief Executive Officer, and Mrs. Andrea Kopp-Battaglia, Senior Vice President, Finance. Currently, all participants are in listen-only mode, and later we will conduct a question and answer session, and instructions will follow at that time. As a reminder, ladies and gentlemen, this conference is being recorded and cannot be reproduced in whole or in part without written permission from the company. I'd like to remind everyone that on today's call, management will be making forward-looking statements. All statements other than statements of historical facts may be forward-looking statements.

Operator: Good morning, good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to Besi's quarterly conference call and audio webcast to discuss the company's 2025 Q4 and full year results. You can register for the conference call or log in to the audio webcast via Besi's website, www.besi.com. Joining us today are Mr. Richard Blickman, Chief Executive Officer, and Mrs. Andrea Kopp-Battaglia, Senior Vice President, Finance. Currently, all participants are in listen-only mode, and later we will conduct a question and answer session, and instructions will follow at that time. As a reminder, ladies and gentlemen, this conference is being recorded and cannot be reproduced in whole or in part without written permission from the company. I'd like to remind everyone that on today's call, management will be making forward-looking statements. All statements other than statements of historical facts may be forward-looking statements.

Speaker #1: You can register for the conference call or log in to the audio webcast via BASE's website, www.base.com. Joining us today are Mr. Richard Blickman, Chief Executive Officer, and Mrs. Andrea Kopp, Senior Vice President Finance.

Speaker #1: Currently, all participants are in listen-only mode. And later, we will conduct a question-and-answer session. And instructions will follow at that time. As a reminder, ladies and gentlemen, this conference is being recorded and cannot be reproduced in whole or in part without written permission from the company.

Speaker #1: I'd like to remind everyone that on today's call, we'll be making management will be making forward-looking statements. All statements other than statements of historical facts may be forward-looking statements.

Speaker #1: Forward-looking statements reflect BASE's current views and assumptions regarding future events. Many of which are by nature inherently uncertain and beyond BASE's control. Actual results may vary materially from those in the forward-looking statements.

[Company Representative] (BE Semiconductor Industries N.V.): Forward-looking statements reflect Besi's current views and assumptions regarding future events, many of which are by nature inherently uncertain and beyond Besi's control. Actual results may vary materially from those in the forward-looking statements due to various risks and uncertainties, including, but not limited to, factors that are discussed in the company's most recent periodic and current reports filed with the AFM. Such forward-looking statements, including guidance provided during today's call, speak only as of this date, and Besi does not intend to update them in light of new information or future developments, nor does Besi undertake any obligation to update the forward-looking statements. I would now like to turn the call over to Mr. Richard Blickman. Please go ahead.

Operator: Forward-looking statements reflect Besi's current views and assumptions regarding future events, many of which are by nature inherently uncertain and beyond Besi's control. Actual results may vary materially from those in the forward-looking statements due to various risks and uncertainties, including, but not limited to, factors that are discussed in the company's most recent periodic and current reports filed with the AFM. Such forward-looking statements, including guidance provided during today's call, speak only as of this date, and Besi does not intend to update them in light of new information or future developments, nor does Besi undertake any obligation to update the forward-looking statements. I would now like to turn the call over to Mr. Richard Blickman. Please go ahead.

Speaker #1: Due to various risks and uncertainties, including but not limited to factors that are discussed in the company's most recent periodic and current reports, filed with the AFM.

Speaker #1: Such forward-looking statements, including guidance provided during today's call, speak only as of this date, and BE Semiconductor Industries does not intend to update them in light of new information or future developments.

Speaker #1: Nor does BASE undertake any obligation to update the forward-looking statements. I would now like to turn the call over to Mr. Richard Blickman. Please go ahead.

Speaker #2: Thank you. For today's call, we'd like to review the key highlights for our fourth quarter and year-end at December 31st, 2025. And update you on the market, our strategy, and outlook.

Richard Blickman: Thank you. For today's call, we'd like to review the key highlights for our Q4 and year ended 31 December 2025, and update you on the market, our strategy, and outlook. First, some overall thoughts on the fourth quarter. Besi's revenue, gross margin, and operating expense development in Q4 2025 exceeded the favorable end of prior guidance. Revenue of EUR 166.4 million and orders of EUR 250.4 million increased by 25.4% and 43.3% versus Q3 2025, due principally to a broad-based increase in demand by Asian subcontractors for 2.5D data center applications, renewed capacity purchases for photonics applications, and a significant increase in hybrid bonding orders.

Speaker #2: First, some overall thoughts on the fourth quarter. BASE's revenue, gross margin, and operating expense development in the fourth quarter '25 exceeded the favorable end of prior guidance.

Speaker #2: Revenue of $166.4 million and orders of $250.4 million increased by 25.4% and $43.3% versus the third quarter of '25 due principally to a broad-based increase in demand by Asian subcontractors for 2.5D data center applications, renewed capacity purchases for photonics applications, and a significant increase in hybrid bonding orders.

Speaker #2: Net income of $42.8 million increased by 69.2% versus the third quarter of '25 due to higher revenue, increased gross margins from a more favorable product mix, and lower than anticipated operating expense growth.

Richard Blickman: Net income of EUR 42.8 million increased by 69.2% versus Q3 2025, due to higher revenue, increased gross margins from a more favorable product mix, and lower than anticipated operating expense growth. Besi's progress in 2025 reflected the favorable influence of increased AI infrastructure spending on our business development. Orders of EUR 685 million increased by 16.8% versus 2024, due to strength in AI-related 2.5D demand for data center applications by Asian subcontractors and renewed capacity purchases for photonics applications. Growth accelerated in the second half of the year, with orders increasing 63.6% versus the first half of 2025.

Speaker #2: BASE's progress in 2025 reflected the favorable influence of increased AI infrastructure spending on our business development. Orders of $685 million increased by 16.8% versus 2024 due to strength in AI-related $2.5D demand for data center applications by Asian subcontractors and renewed capacity purchases for photonics applications.

Speaker #2: Growth accelerated in the second half of the year, with orders increasing 63.6% versus the first half of '25. Orders for AI applications represented approximately 50% of our total orders in '25, and revenue from BASE's computing end-user market grew from approximately 40% of revenue in 2024 to 50% in 2025.

Richard Blickman: Orders for AI applications represented approximately 50% of our total orders in 2025, and revenue from Besi's computing end user markets grew by approximately 40% of revenue in 2024 to 50% in 2025. For the year, revenue of EUR 591.3 million decreased by 2.7% versus 2024, due to lower shipments for mobile, automotive, and industrial end user markets as a result of ongoing weakness in overall assembly markets. We continued to maintain attractive levels of profitability, with gross, operating, and net margins realized of 63.3%, 29.3%, and 22.3%, respectively.

Speaker #2: For the year, revenue of $591.3 million decreased by 2.7% versus 2024 due to lower shipments for mobile, automotive, and industrial end-user markets as a result of ongoing weakness in overall assembly markets.

Speaker #2: We continued to maintain attractive levels of profitability with gross operating and net margins realized of $63.3%, $29.3%, and $22.3% respectively. Given profits earned in 2025 and our solid liquidity position, we will propose a cash dividend of $1.58 per share for approval at BASE's April AGM, which represents a 95% payout ratio.

Richard Blickman: Given profits earned in 2025 and our solid liquidity position, we will propose a cash dividend of EUR 1.58 per share for approval at Besi's April AGM, which represents a 95% payout ratio. Liquidity remains strong at year-end, with cash and deposits of EUR 543 million and net cash of EUR 36 million, increasing by EUR 24.4 million and EUR 43.8 million respectively, versus 30 September 2025. We distributed EUR 254.8 million in the form of dividends and share repurchases in 2025, roughly equal to levels of 2024. Next, I'd like to discuss the current market environment and our strategy.

Speaker #2: Liquidity remains strong at year-end with cash and deposits of $543 million and net cash of $36 million increasing by 24.4 million and $43.8 million respectively versus September 30, '25.

Speaker #2: We distributed $254.8 million in the form of dividends and share repurchases in 2025, roughly equal to levels of 2024. Next, I'd like to discuss the current market environment and our strategy.

Speaker #2: Tech insights currently forecast relatively flat assembly market growth between '24 and '25, driven by a push out of the anticipated assembly upturn from '25 to '26.

Richard Blickman: TechInsights currently forecasts relatively flat assembly market growth between 2024 and 2025, driven by a push-out of the anticipated assembly upturn from 2025 to 2026. However, they expect growth of 74% between 2025 and 2030, based on increased AI use cases and infrastructure spending, new product introductions, new fabs coming online, and a recovery in mainstream assembly applications. We expect to significantly exceed such projected growth rates, given our leadership position in advanced packaging. We are pleased with our operational progress in 2025, as we completed a comprehensive strategic plan review with enhanced revenue and profit targets, and organized additional production capacity and infrastructure to help support that growth. We also experienced progress on our wafer level assembly agenda, as hybrid bonding adoption expanded to 18 customers.

Speaker #2: However, they expect growth of 74% between '25 and 2030. Based on increased AI use cases and infrastructure spending, new product introductions, new fabs, coming online, and a recovery in mainstream assembly applications.

Speaker #2: We expect to significantly exceed such projected growth rates given our leadership position in advanced packaging. We are pleased with our operational progress in 2025 as we completed a comprehensive strategic plan review with enhanced revenue and profit targets and organized additional production capacity and infrastructure to help support that growth.

Speaker #2: We also experienced progress on our way for level assembly agenda, as hybrid bonding adoption expanded to 18 customers. Cumulative order grew to 150-plus systems, and new use cases were identified for co-package optics, ASICs, and consumer applications.

Richard Blickman: Cumulative orders grew to 150+ systems, and new use cases were identified for co-packaged optics, ASICs, and consumer applications. In addition, 6 integrated hybrid bonding production lines were installed at a leading logic customer, incorporating 30 basic hybrid bonders in collaboration with Applied Materials. The first 50-nanometer placement accuracy prototype system was also completed and available for customer qualification. Our position in the TC market was further enhanced as Besi's TC Next adoption expanded to 5 customers for logic, memory, and photonics applications. In addition, our flip chip and multi-module die-attach systems gained significant share in the market for AI-related 2.5D assembly structures, addressing the rapid growth in demand for data center and photonics capacity.

Speaker #2: In addition, six integrated hybrid bonding production lines were installed at the leading logic customer, incorporating 30 BASE hybrid bonders in collaboration with Applied Materials.

Speaker #2: The first 15 nanometer placement accuracy prototype system was also completed and available for customer qualification. Our position in the TC market was further enhanced as BASE's TC Next adoption expanded to five customers for logic, memory, and photonics applications.

Speaker #2: In addition, our flip chip and multi-module die attach systems gained significant share in the market for AI-related $2.5D assembly structures addressing the rapid growth in demand for data center and photonics capacity.

Speaker #2: Further, we successfully introduced a variety of next-generation die bonding and packaging systems for each of our traditional mainstream markets as we prepare for the next market conditions improving in overall mainstream assembly markets based on favorable semiconductor unit growth trends and a significant reduction of excess semiconductor inventory.

Richard Blickman: Further, we successfully introduced a variety of next-generation die bonding and packaging systems for each of our traditional mainstream markets as we prepare for the next market upturn. We see market conditions improving in overall mainstream assembly markets based on favorable semiconductor unit growth trends and a significant reduction of excess semiconductor inventory. Green shoots are appearing after an extended downturn of nearly four years in each of our principal end user markets. Customer roadmaps also point to expanded adoption of wafer level assembly over the next two years, related to hybrid bonding and TC Next adoption in HBM4E, co-packaged optics, ASICs, and new high-performance computing and mobile introductions. In addition, recent announcements of substantial AI-related infrastructure investments are expected to increase demand for advanced packaging.

Speaker #2: Green shoots are appearing after an extended downturn of nearly four years. In each of our principal end-user markets, customer roadmaps also point to expanded adoption of wafer-level assembly over the next two years, related to hybrid bonding and TC Next adoption in HBM4, 4E, co-package optics, ASICs, and new high-performance computing and mobile introductions.

Speaker #2: In addition, recent announcements of substantial AI-related infrastructure investments are expected to increase demand for advanced packaging. Increased AI investment has created capacity shortages for $2.5D packaging, which has caused producers to secure increased production for many Asian subcontractors.

Richard Blickman: Increased AI investment has created capacity shortages for 2.5D packaging, which has caused producers to secure increased production from many Asian subcontractors. Further, many new advanced packaging fabs are planned globally, which should increase demand for our advanced packaging portfolio. Now, a few words about our guidance. We enter 2026 with increased optimism based on strong order momentum experienced in the second half of 2025, which has continued to date in Q1 2026. Our current optimism is based on anticipated growth in three promising basic revenue streams: 3D wafer level assembly, AI-related 2.5D capacity, and more traditional mainstream assembly applications. Our optimism also relates to the significant increase in demand from Chinese subcontractors as the country builds out its AI infrastructure.

Speaker #2: Further, many new advanced packaging fabs are planned globally, which should increase demand for our advanced packaging portfolio. Now, a few words about our guidance.

Speaker #2: We enter '26 with increased optimism based on strong order momentum experienced in the second half of '25, which has continued to date in the first quarter of 2026.

Speaker #2: Our current optimism is based on anticipated growth in three promising BASE revenue streams: 3D wafer-level assembly, AI-related $2.5D capacity, and more traditional mainstream assembly applications.

Speaker #2: Our optimism also relates to the significant increase in demand from Chinese subcontractors as the country builds out its AI infrastructure. For the first quarter '26, we anticipate that revenue will increase between 5% and 15% versus the fourth quarter of last year, with gross margins ranging between 63% and 65%, aided by improved revenue and a more favorable advanced packaging product mix.

Richard Blickman: For Q1 2026, we anticipate that revenue will increase between 5% and 15% versus Q4 of last year, with gross margins ranging between 63% and 65%, aided by improved revenue and a more favorable advanced packaging product mix. Operating expenses are anticipated to increase by 10% to 15%, as we maintain discipline in overhead growth while continuing to increase development spending to support long-term growth opportunities. That ends my prepared remarks. I would like to open the call for some questions. Operator?

Speaker #2: Operating expenses are anticipated to increase by 10% to 15% as we maintain discipline in overhead growth while continuing to increase development spending to support long-term growth opportunities.

Speaker #2: That ends my prepared remarks. I would like to open the call for some questions. Operator.

Speaker #1: Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen. We are now ready to take your questions. As a reminder, you are limited to two questions per person.

[Company Representative] (BE Semiconductor Industries N.V.): Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, we are now ready to take your questions. As a reminder, you are limited to two questions per person. If you have a question, please press pound key five on your telephone keypad.... The first question comes from Madeline Jenkins, from UBS. Please go ahead.

Operator: Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, we are now ready to take your questions. As a reminder, you are limited to two questions per person. If you have a question, please press pound key five on your telephone keypad.... The first question comes from Madeline Jenkins, from UBS. Please go ahead.

Speaker #1: If you have a question, please press pound key five on your telephone keypad. The first question comes from Madeleine Jenkins from UBS. Please go ahead.

Speaker #3: Hi, Richard. Thanks for taking my question. My first one is just, Samsung has publicly said that they'll be dual-tracking hybrid bonding and TCB for 4E.

Madeleine Jenkins: Hi, Richard. Thanks for taking my question. I, my first one is just, Samsung has publicly said that they'll be dual tracking hybrid bonding and TCB for HBM4E, in HBM, and the samples are being sent to, sent to customers. I was just wondering if you could kind of help us understand from a customer's perspective, what would make them choose a hybrid bonding version versus the TCB and vice versa. And then on that, just generally, when are you expecting the first high volume orders to come through for, for hybrid bonding for HBM? Thank you.

Speaker #3: In HBM, and the samples are being sent to customers. I was just wondering if you could kind of help us understand, from a customer's perspective, what would make them choose the hybrid bonding version versus the TCB, and vice versa.

Speaker #3: And then on that, just generally, when are you expecting the first high-volume orders to come through for hybrid bonding for HBM? Thank you.

Speaker #4: Well, excellent, Madeleine. Happy to share some more background. 2026 will be a very important year to understand the adoption of hybrid bonding for HBM stacking.

Richard Blickman: Well, excellent, Madeline. Happy to share some more background. 2026 will be a very important year to understand the adoption of hybrid bonding for HBM stacking. As is publicly shared by Samsung in particular, keynote speech last week in Korea at the SemiCon is a very clear roadmap to adopt hybrid bonding for very important reasons, and that is performance and also heat. And that, with all kinds of tests in previous years, should be superior to using a reflow process to build these stacks.

Speaker #4: As is publicly shared by Samsung in particular, the keynote speech last week in Korea at the Semicon is a very clear roadmap to adopt hybrid bonding for very important reasons, and that is performance, and also heat.

Speaker #4: And that, with all kinds of tests in previous years, should be superior to using a reflow process to build these stacks. We are currently in the evaluation process.

Richard Blickman: We are currently in the evaluation process, customer, sample and qualification process, and as was published by that customer in the course of this year, early Q2, maybe Q2, May, June timeframe, it should become clear how that inroad of hybrid bonding stacked in HBM4, but also in the previous three, the 12-stack, should find its way into the end markets. That is Samsung. As we all know, our other memory customer started already much earlier in testing and sampling hybrid bonded stacks, and they are ready as soon as the market demands these technologies used for either HBM4E or other stack devices. Also, the 12 supposedly shows much better performance using a hybrid process than a reflow process.

Speaker #4: Customer sample and qualification process. And as was published by that customer, in the course of this year, early Q2, maybe Q2, May, June timeframe, it should become clear how that inroad of hybrid bonding stacked in HBM4, but also in the previous three, the 12 stack, should find its way into the end markets.

Speaker #4: That is Samsung. As we all know, our other memory customer started already much earlier in testing and sampling hybrid bonded stacks, and they are ready as soon as the market demands these technologies used for either HBM4E or other stacked devices.

Speaker #4: Also, the 12 supposedly shows much better performance using a hybrid process than a reflow process. And last but not least, the number three, the largest of all the memory the three memory producers has also announced that it will start qualification of the hybrid bonding process in the second quarter of this year.

Richard Blickman: And last but not least, the number three, the largest of all the memory, the three memory producers, has also announced that it will start qualification of the hybrid bonding process, in Q2 of this year. To also come towards the end of this year, to the conclusion, whether this is a technology used for high volume mainstream in the generation of HBM4, or whether that is in preparation of the next generation, the 20 stack. So all these tests, we will update you every quarter on the progress. Also, there's a lot of press coverage, and those companies share that with the, community, also in conferences. So a very important year for hybrid adoption in, the memory space.

Speaker #4: To also come towards the end of this year, to the conclusion whether this is a technology used for high-volume mainstream in the generation of HBM4, or whether that is in preparation of the next generation, the 20 stack.

Speaker #4: So all these tests we will update you every quarter on the progress. Also, there's a lot of press coverage and those companies share that with the community.

Speaker #4: Also in conferences, so a very important year for hybrid adoption in the memory space.

Speaker #3: That's very helpful. Thank you. And then just my second question is on China. They're clearly adding a lot of AI capacity. Kind of how sustainable do you see this demand as being?

Madeleine Jenkins: That's very helpful. Thank you. And then just my second question is on China. They're clearly adding a lot of AI capacity. Kind of how sustainable do you see this demand as being? Is it multiple customers? And also, how high is your market share in this region for the AI bit? Thank you.

Speaker #3: Is it multiple customers? And also, how high is your market share in this region for the AI bit? Thank you.

Speaker #4: The market share is very high. To our surprise, we would have expected and let's say solid market share as we long time. But our share has gone up significantly.

Richard Blickman: The market share is very high. To our surprise, we would have expected an, let's say, solid market share, as we have with mass reflow for a long time, but our share has gone up significantly, also among the Chinese. How sustainable that is? Well, the answer is that the world expects an enormous increase in building data centers, so for that 2.5D, some qualify that we are only at the beginning. Our position, as said earlier, is very strong, with a very solid market share, and that you can also derive from our margin, our ongoing margin, gross margin, but also net margin development.

Speaker #4: Also, among the Chinese. How sustainable is that? Well, the answer is that the world expects an enormous increase in building data centers. So for that two-and-a-half D, some qualify that we are only at the beginning.

Speaker #4: Our position as said earlier is very strong with a very solid market share. And that you can also derive from our margin our ongoing margin gross margin, but also net margin development.

Speaker #3: Perfect. Thank you very much, Richard.

Madeleine Jenkins: Perfect. Thank you very much, Richard.

Speaker #4: Thanks, Madeleine.

Richard Blickman: Thanks, Madeline.

Speaker #1: The next question comes from Sandeep Deshpande from JPMorgan. Please go ahead.

[Company Representative] (BE Semiconductor Industries N.V.): The next question comes from Sandeep Deshpande, from JP Morgan. Please go ahead.

Operator: The next question comes from Sandeep Deshpande, from JP Morgan. Please go ahead.

Speaker #5: Thank you for letting me on. Richard, my question to you is regarding the regarding the logic market and the foundry market. I mean, you've seen that some orders coming through in the last quarter on the foundry side.

Sandeep Deshpande: Thank you for letting me on. Richard, my question to you is regarding the logic market and the foundry market. I mean, you've seen that some orders coming through in the last quarter on the foundry side. Do you expect that these orders from the foundry side continue into Q1? And when you say on your release that the order momentum remains strong in Q1, how would you quantify it? I mean, are we gonna expect as strong sort of orders in Q1, like you saw in Q4?

Speaker #5: Do you expect that these orders from the foundry side continue into the first quarter? And when you say on your release that the order momentum remains strong in the first quarter, how would you quantify it?

Speaker #5: I mean, are we going to expect as strong sort of orders in the first quarter like you saw in the fourth quarter?

Speaker #4: Well, the answer is first of all, yes. So as we guided continued momentum, that also means that we expect more orders in the logic space for hybrid bonders.

Richard Blickman: Well, the answer is, first of all, yes. So, as we guided, continued momentum, that also means that we expect more orders in the logic space for hybrid bonders. And as we all know, the program in Taiwan entails several steps to build out a complete new factory. The first installs start in June, and operators have to be trained, maintenance has to be organized, and that's all on the way. And you can expect, as was also the case with the current factory, the AP6, that over the course of several quarters, that capacity will be built because supposedly, and demand is building. So that looks very promising.

Speaker #4: And as we all know, the program in Taiwan entails several steps to build out a complete new factory. The first install starts in June.

Speaker #4: And operators have to be trained, maintenance has to be organized, and that's all underway. And you can expect, as was also the case with the current factory, the AP6, that over the course of several quarters, that capacity will be built because supposedly and demand is building.

Speaker #4: So that looks very promising.

Sandeep Deshpande: Then following up on that, on the logic side, do you expect in the logic business that this year, that is 2026, will be much better than in 2025? Because, you know, when you look at how your order intake was at the end of 2024, you had about 100 cumulative hybrid bonding orders. You've had 150 at the end of 2025, so there was a slight slowdown in terms of the order intake. And is this going to accelerate now into 2026? I mean, clearly, memory will also contribute to that, but will logic itself accelerate?

Speaker #5: Then following up on that, on the logic side, do you expect in the logic business that this year, that is '26, will be much better than in '25?

Speaker #5: Because when you look at how your order intake was at the end of '24, you had about 100 cumulative hybrid bonding orders. You've had 150 at the end of '25.

Speaker #5: So there was a slight slowdown in terms of the order intake and is this going to accelerate now into '26? I mean, clearly memory will also contribute to that, but will logic itself accelerate?

Speaker #4: Well, as I just explained to your first question, if all goes according to public shared plans, it should increase. Because already AP7 is supposedly twice the size of AP6.

Richard Blickman: Well, as I just explained to your first question, if all goes according to public shared plans, it should increase, because already AP7 is supposedly twice the size of AP6, and that's only one customer. So the adoption for logic is continuing. We saw that in the whole of 2025. Again, we now have 18 customers, of which most are the far most logic-oriented customers with all kinds of different device designs. Remember, the first was AMD, which has expanded its family throughout, and then we have many others now following. The big question here is when will the largest end customer have a product line using this technology? That should be on the horizon. So that then will create a significantly higher demand than what we have witnessed in 2025.

Speaker #4: And that's only one customer. So the adoption for logic is continuing. We saw that in the whole of '25. Again, we now have 18 customers of which most are the far most are logic-oriented customers.

Speaker #4: With all kinds of different device designs, remember the first was AMD, which has expanded its family throughout. And then we have many others now following.

Speaker #4: The big question here is when will the largest end customer have a product line using this technology? That should be on the horizon. So that then will create a significantly higher demand than what we have witnessed in '25.

Speaker #4: But that's according to the roadmap we've shared forever. There's nice slide in our deck where we see a development in the past five years.

Richard Blickman: But that's according to the roadmap we've shared forever. There's a nice slide in our deck where we see a development in the past five years and an expected significant growth in the next five years. As we've said many times, that line of growth, it can have several variations, especially as you said, the adoption of memory will change that landscape significantly in terms of total volume required. But we're still on track on that, let's say, roadmap we ourselves derived from what is happening in the market in the past four years, which we update every year. So that's in a nutshell the overall picture we should or we could expect.

Speaker #4: And an expected significant growth in the next five years. As we've said many times, that line of growth, it can have several variations, especially as you said, the adoption of memory will change that landscape significantly in terms of total volume required.

Speaker #4: But we're still on track on that, let's say, roadmap we ourselves derived from what is happening in the market in the past four years, which we update every year.

Speaker #4: So that's, in a nutshell, the overall picture we should, or we could, expect.

Speaker #5: Thank you, Richard.

Sandeep Deshpande: Thank you, Richard.

Speaker #1: The next question comes from PJ from Bank of America. Please go ahead.

[Company Representative] (BE Semiconductor Industries N.V.): The next question comes from DJ Moma from Bank of America. Please go ahead.

Operator: The next question comes from DJ Moma from Bank of America. Please go ahead.

Speaker #5: Yes, good afternoon, Richard. I have a couple of questions. So first question is on HBM. If everything goes according to plan and your two lead partners decide to pull the trigger on TCB or TC Next, then hybrid bonding, can you give us a sense of the magnitude of orders, sort of the volumes that would be required to create a production line?

Didier Scemama: Yes, good afternoon, Richard. I have a couple of questions. So first question is on HBM. If everything goes according to plan and, you know, your two lead partners decide to pull the trigger on TCB or TC Next and hybrid bonding, can you give us a sense of the magnitude of orders, or the sort of the volumes that would be required to create a production line? I've got a follow-up.

Speaker #5: I've got a follow-up.

Speaker #4: Well, as a rule of thumb, typically, one needs a factor more. Memory supporting a logic device. So when you take the rule of thumb of a factor four, then with the installed base so far, for logic, which is now over 130 systems, shortly coming up 150, then if you multiply that, then you know how much capacity you would or how many machines you would require to support the capacity for memory.

Richard Blickman: Well, as a rule of thumb, typically, one needs a factor more memory supporting a logic device. So when you take the rule of thumb of a factor of four, then, with the installed base so far for logic, which is now over 130 systems, shortly coming up 150, then you, if you multiply that, then you know how much capacity you would, or how many machines you would require to support the capacity for memory. It doesn't work exactly like that, but the factor for number of machines, capacity required, is significantly higher than for the logic. So that's a major step up, what we can expect when that adoption occurs. But that, again, you see in that picture we share on the adoption scenarios.

Speaker #4: It doesn't work exactly like that, but the factor for number of machines, capacity required, is significantly higher than for the logic. So that's a major step up what we can expect when that adoption occurs.

Speaker #4: But that, again, you see in that picture we share on the adoption scenarios.

Speaker #5: Understood very clear. My second question is on mobile so if you remember, obviously, a few years back, very exciting high-end smartphone adoption for hybrid bonding.

Didier Scemama: Understood. Very clear. My second question is on mobile. So if you remember, like obviously a few years back, the high-end smartphone adoption type of bonding. Can you just give us a sense as to, first, whether we should expect the traditional order intake in Q1 related to high-end smartphone, you know, new features, cameras, et cetera. And then if you look a bit further out, how this is shaping up to be in terms of hybrid bonding adoption, whether it's 2027 or further, further out in you or at least your best, your best guess?

Speaker #5: Can you just give us a sense as to, first, whether we should expect the traditional order intake in the first quarter related to high-end smartphones, new features, cameras, etc.? And then, if you look a bit further out, how this is shaping up to be in terms of hybrid bonding adoption, whether it's '27 or further out, in at least your best guess?

Speaker #4: Well, this year, as we already shared a quarter ago, we should see some improvements or new updates on features on high-end smartphones. On the camera front, there are some new developments, but also maybe foldable versions are, let's say, on the roadmaps.

Richard Blickman: ... Well, this year, as we, as we already shared a quarter ago, we should see some improvements or, or new updates on features on high-end smartphones. On the camera front, there are some new developments, but also maybe foldable versions are, are, let's say, on the roadmaps, and that requires also different solutions inside those cameras. So those are developments which we see, but then the next question is, what kind of computing power one needs to support AI functions? And, that, that is a big, let's say, question, and that could have a significant impact.

Speaker #4: And that requires also different solutions inside those cameras. So those are developments which we see, but then the next question is what kind of computing power one needs to support AI functions.

Speaker #4: And that is a big let's say, question. And that could have a significant impact. And whether they are built with a reflow process or with a hybrid bonding process, chiplet architectures, as we've shared many times, there's a lot of development going on.

Richard Blickman: Whether they are built with a reflow process or with a hybrid bonding process, chiplet architectures, as we've shared many times, there's a lot of development going on, and certain roadmaps indicate those new major inflection points in technology, either already in 2026 or certainly in 2027. That is how it develops, and there's no change in that roadmap.

Speaker #4: And certain roadmaps indicate those new major inflection points in technology either already in '26 or certainly in '27. That is how it develops and there's no change in that roadmap.

Didier Scemama: Okay, very good.

Richard Blickman: Does that answer your question? Yep.

Speaker #4: Does that answer your question?

Speaker #5: Yeah.

Didier Scemama: I do. Just a quick follow-up. For your Q1 guidance, I just wonder why your order conversion is quite a lot lower than it normally is. So I think it's about, you know, 100% ±. So why on EUR 250 Q4, you're sort of guiding to only EUR 185 or so at the midpoint?

Speaker #3: Just had a quick follow-up. For your first quarter guidance, I just wonder why your order conversion is quite a lot lower than it normally is.

Speaker #3: So I think it's about 100% plus or minus. So why on 215, Q4, you're sort of guiding to only 185 or so at the midpoint?

Speaker #4: Well, very easy answer. The orders were or let's say the order placements were very much to the end of the quarter. And the manufacturing throughput time for many of these orders, so take the high-end flip chip machines, the Cameos, but also the multi-module attached, which is very much also for photonics.

Richard Blickman: Well, very easy answer. The orders were, or let's say, the order placements were very much to the end of the quarter, and the manufacturing throughput time for many of these orders, so take the high-end flip chip, the machines, the Cameos, but also the multi-module attach, which is very much also for photonics. They take 12 to 16 weeks, so you simply can't physically arrange the shipment in Q1. So the answer also implies that you should see a significant impact on Q2.

Speaker #4: They take 12 to 16 weeks. So you simply can't physically arrange the shipment in the first quarter. So the answer also implies that you should see a significant impact on the second quarter.

Speaker #5: Sounds exciting. Thank you very much.

Didier Scemama: Sounds exciting. Thank you very much.

Speaker #4: Thank you.

Richard Blickman: Thank you.

Speaker #1: The next question comes from Charles Xi from Needham and Company. Please go ahead.

[Company Representative] (BE Semiconductor Industries N.V.): The next question comes from Charles Shi, from Needham and Company. Please go ahead.

Operator: The next question comes from Charles Shi, from Needham and Company. Please go ahead.

Speaker #6: Hi. Richard, good afternoon. Thanks for taking my questions. The first one, I want to go back to the comment about the hybrid bonding cumulative revenue orders it was 150 plus by the end of last year.

Charles Shi: Hi, Rich, good afternoon. Thanks for taking my question. So the first one, I wanna go back to the comment about the hybrid bonding cumulative revenue orders. It was 150+ by the end of last year, and if I do the math, then it looks like last year, the number of orders you got was actually more or less comparable with 2024. So but the question here is, what about 2026? What's the overall sense where the cumulative order number will go? 200 seems possible. I mean, that basically assumes compare-- I mean, flattish number of orders you're gonna add this year versus 2025.

Speaker #6: And if I do the math, it looks like last year the number of orders you got was actually more or less comparable with 2024, but the question here is, what about 2026?

Speaker #6: What's the overall sense where the cumulative order number will go? 200 seems possible. I mean, that basically assumes I mean, flattish number of orders you're going to add.

Speaker #6: This year versus 2025. But can you go to 250? Can you go to 300? And, I mean, to go to higher numbers, what do you think needs to happen?

Charles Shi: But can you go to 250, can you go to 300, and, I mean, for, to go to higher numbers, what do you think needs to happen? So, yeah. Thank you.

Speaker #6: Yeah. Thank you.

Speaker #4: Two things need to happen. Number one, the adoption of hybrid bonding for mainstream applications for logic devices next to what is already now using hybrid bonding.

Richard Blickman: Two things need to happen. Number one, the adoption of hybrid bonding for mainstream applications, for logic devices next to what is already now using hybrid bonding. So think about the big AI providers, which are still building certain modules using mass reflow, using TC. If they switch to hybrid bonding, that could change the landscape dramatically. And number two is, as we discussed the earlier question, is the adoption of hybrid bonding for memory stacking.

Speaker #4: So think about the big AI providers which are still building certain modules using mass reflow, using TC, if they switch to hybrid bonding, that could change the landscape dramatically.

Speaker #4: And number two, as we discussed the earlier question, is the adoption of hybrid bonding for memory stacking.

Speaker #6: Got it. But okay, so maybe I'll just go direct into memory. Now, Samsung HBM4E—that is a fact that is happening. But I mean, on the other hand, if we understand correctly, the other two HBM customers have not even had an order from you.

Charles Shi: Got it. But, okay, so maybe I'll just go direct into memory. Now, Samsung HBM4E, that is a fact that is happening. But, I mean, on the other hand, if we understand correctly, the other two HBM customers have not even have an order from you, a hybrid bonding order from you. And why the hesitancy? That's the question, I believe, top of mind for a lot of people here. And, what's delaying them, and could they start getting some orders this year?

Speaker #6: Hybrid bonding order from you. And why the hesitancy? That's the question. I believe it's top of mind for a lot of people here. And what's delaying them?

Speaker #6: And could they start getting some orders this year?

Speaker #4: Well, it's the other two. One of them, with the US base, they have ordered already several hybrid bonders to develop HBM stacking. For about three years.

Richard Blickman: Well, it's the other two, one of them with the US base, they have ordered already several hybrid bonders to develop HBM stacking for about 3 years. Now, it's also known publicly that the other one, Korean, will start evaluating the hybrid bonding process in April-May timeframe. We are invited for that, and they have publicly shared that their end customer demands them to have a hybrid bonded version available by the end of this year. So although cost is higher, using a hybrid process, performance is better in two ways. Number one is speed, and number two is heat. So it is gradually moving from TC solutions for stacking to a hybrid version. And the big question, will this move in 2026 or certainly in 2027?

Speaker #4: Now, it's also known publicly that the other one, Korean, will start evaluating the hybrid bonding process in April, May timeframe. We are invited for that.

Speaker #4: And they have publicly shared that their end customer demands them to have a hybrid bonded version available by the end of this year. So although cost is higher, using a hybrid process, performance is better.

Speaker #4: In two ways. Number one is speed. And number two is heat. So it is gradually moving from TC solutions for stacking to a hybrid version.

Speaker #4: And the big question: will this move in ’26, or certainly in ’27? That’s how we read the inputs from all three. And the biggest end customer driving, ultimately, the change in specification for these end products.

Richard Blickman: That's how we read the inputs from all three, and the biggest end customer driving, ultimately, the change in specification for these end products.

Speaker #6: Thanks, Richard.

[Company Representative] (BE Semiconductor Industries N.V.): Thanks, Richard.

Charles Shi: Thanks, Richard.

Speaker #4: Next question.

Richard Blickman: Next question.

Speaker #1: Ladies and gentlemen, just a quick reminder: you're limited to two questions per person. The next question comes from Robert Sanders from Data Bank. Please go ahead.

[Company Representative] (BE Semiconductor Industries N.V.): Ladies and gentlemen, just a quick reminder, you're limited to two questions per person. The next question comes from Robert Sanders from Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead.

Operator: Ladies and gentlemen, just a quick reminder, you're limited to two questions per person. The next question comes from Robert Sanders from Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead.

Speaker #5: Yeah. Good afternoon, Richard. Maybe the first question would just be around the situation with Apple, which seems to be moving to using SOICX for the M5 Pro and M5 Max.

Robert Sanders: Yeah, good afternoon, Richard. Maybe the first question would just be around the situation with Apple, which seems to be moving to using SOICX for the M5 Pro and M5 Max. Is that beachhead, do you think, gonna be swiftly followed by other SKUs, or is it gonna remain, do you think, a relatively niche use of SOICX for high-end notebook-type situations? And I have a follow-up. Thanks.

Speaker #5: Is that beachhead, do you think, going to be swiftly followed by other SKUs? Or is it going to remain do you think a relatively niche use of SOICX for high-end notebook-type situations?

Speaker #5: And I have a follow-up. Thanks.

Speaker #4: Well, that's precisely put. So they're all preparing from a production and technology readiness standpoint to be able to adopt this technology shift when decided. For us, what we can do is continue to offer whatever qualification samples testing to be ready for that.

Richard Blickman: Well, that's precisely put, huh? So they're all preparing from a production and technology readiness, to be able to adopt this technology shift, when decided. There's one big question out there: How much additional computing power will be required for Edge AI functionality? And that is what we hear, still the question to be answered. Edge AI, how does that impact the choice of the technology used in these mobile devices? Because in the end, it will increase the cost, but then the functionality is significantly more advanced. So that open debate, you follow at conferences directly from customer engineers.

Speaker #4: There's one big question out there. How much additional computing power will be required for each AI functionality? And that is what we hear still the question to be answered.

Speaker #4: Edge AI, how does that impact the choice of the technology used in these mobile devices? Because in the end, it will increase the cost.

Speaker #4: But then the functionality is significantly more advanced. So that open debate you follow at conferences, directly from customer engineers, and also we had our technology advisory board meeting two weeks ago in Taiwan.

Richard Blickman: And also we had our technology advisory board meeting two weeks ago in Taiwan, where there were also technology persons from the community sharing roadmaps and thoughts exactly on this subject.

Speaker #4: There were also technology persons from the community sharing roadmaps and thoughts, exactly on this subject.

Speaker #5: Thanks for that, Richard. And just quickly on China, maybe you could just discuss a bit about what's happening in China. I mean, I think it was 27% of your sales in the first half, but it has been higher than 45.

Robert Sanders: Thanks for that, Richard. And just quickly on China, maybe you could just discuss a bit about what's happening in China. I mean, I think it was 27% of your sales in the first half, but it has been higher than 45%. I mean, it sounds like it's gonna go up to close to 50%. Is that fair, and how do you think about the sustainability of that spending? Thanks.

Speaker #5: I mean, it sounds like it's going to go up to close to 50. Is that fair? And how do you think about the sustainability of that spending?

Speaker #5: Thanks.

Speaker #4: Well, so far, we've always had this typical mix. You have non-Chinese customers producing in China. For the past 30 years, all non-Chinese customers have set up assembly capabilities in every technology.

Richard Blickman: Well, so far, we've always had this typical mix. You have non-Chinese customers producing in China. Since 30 years, all non-Chinese customers have set up assembly capabilities in every technology, and that is still today the case, although there's a lot new established outside China, in Asia, in Vietnam, in Thailand, in Malaysia, Philippines, and then India, but that's still slow in coming. So to be less dependent upon China, and then you have the emerging Chinese technology, which is growing year by year. As we said, for the 2.5D modules, we are very much engaged in these Chinese versions. So supposedly the cost of ownership using our equipment is beneficial for local compared to local alternatives. Don't forget, we built all these machines in China.

Speaker #4: And that is still today the case. Although there's a lot new established outside China in Asia, in Vietnam, in Thailand, in Malaysia, Philippines, and then India.

Speaker #4: But that's still slowly coming. So to be less dependent upon China. And then you have the emerging Chinese technology which is growing year by year.

Speaker #4: And as we said, for the two and a half D modules, we are very much engaged in these Chinese versions. So supposedly, the cost of ownership using our equipment is beneficial for local compared to local alternatives.

Speaker #4: Don't forget, we built all these machines in China. We have our wonderful facility in Lisson. Which is expected this year to surpass the peak it achieved in '21.

Richard Blickman: We have a wonderful facility in Lucerne, which is expected this year to surpass the peak it achieved in 2021. So although there's a lot of expectation that that will become less, we don't see that at all. But we are expanding in Vietnam. As many of you know, we have set up a factory three years ago. We're expanding that significantly this year. By the end of this year, we're also able to build one of our die attach systems in Vietnam. And then, as I said earlier, the expansion in Thailand, in Malaysia, the whole Asia Pacific is preparing to have next generation's products produced in those countries rather than establishing more capacity in China. But the Chinese market itself is growing rapidly.

Speaker #4: So although there's a lot of expectation that that will become less, we don't see that at all. But we are expanding in Vietnam as many of you know.

Speaker #4: We have set up a factory three years ago. We're expanding that significantly this year. By the end of this year, we're also able to build one of our die attached systems in Vietnam.

Speaker #4: And then, as I said earlier, the expansion in Thailand, in Malaysia, the whole Pacific Rim, is preparing to have next generations products produced in those countries rather than establishing more capacity in China.

Speaker #4: But the Chinese market itself is growing rapidly.

Speaker #5: Thanks a lot.

[Company Representative] (BE Semiconductor Industries N.V.): Thanks a lot.

Robert Sanders: Thanks a lot.

Speaker #4: Pleasure. Any next question?

Richard Blickman: Pleasure. Any next question?

Speaker #1: The next question comes from Daniel Chaffey from Citi. Please go ahead.

[Company Representative] (BE Semiconductor Industries N.V.): The next question comes from Daniel Shafey from Citi. Please go ahead.

Operator: The next question comes from Daniel Shafey from Citi. Please go ahead.

Speaker #7: Hi. Good afternoon. Thank you for taking my question. Basically, the first one would be on TCB Next. You mentioned five players. I was just wondering, just to clarify, is this testing, or are some of them already in high-volume manufacturing?

Daniel Shafey: Hi, good afternoon. Thank you for taking my question. Basically, the first one would be on TC Next. You mentioned five players. Was just wondering, just to clarify, this is testing or are some of them already high volume manufacturing? And then if hybrid bonding will take longer for some customers, what is your expectation now going forward for TC, especially given you're now gaining traction within TC Next? That would be helpful to understand. Thank you.

Speaker #7: And then if hybrid bonding will take longer for some customers, what is your expectation now going forward for TCB, especially given you're now gaining traction within TCB Next?

Speaker #7: That would be helpful to understand. Thank you.

Speaker #4: Well, number one, our system is designed for bond pad pitch below 20 microns. The world today is still above that—25, 30. So the preparation with these five customers is to be ready once technology moves to smaller bond pad pitches.

Richard Blickman: Well, number one, our system is designed for bond pad pitch below 20-micron. The world today is still above that, 25, 30. So the preparation with these 5 customers is to be ready once technology moves to smaller bond pad pitches, and stretch the life of using a reflow process, because the reflow has many advantages compared to hybrid bonding. One of them is simply cost. We have mentioned several times that our system has demonstrated even to be able to bond successfully at 10-micron bond pad pitches, and that comes very close to the crossover point with hybrid. So we cover the space between mass reflow flip chip, and as mentioned earlier, very successful at this moment, and then the TC space, where it becomes difficult for TC, and then beyond that, the hybrid bonding.

Speaker #4: And stretch the life of using a reflow process, because the reflow has many advantages. Compared to hybrid bonding, one of them is simply cost.

Speaker #4: We have mentioned several times that our system has demonstrated it is able to bond successfully even at 10-micron bond pad pitches. And that comes very close to the crossover point with hybrid.

Speaker #4: So we cover the space between mass reflow, flip chip, and as mentioned earlier, very successful at this moment. And then the TC space where it becomes difficult for TC.

Speaker #4: And then beyond that, the hybrid bonding. So, gradually, the industry always moves to smaller geometries. And that is where exactly this TC Next is aimed for.

Richard Blickman: So gradually, always the industry moves to smaller geometries, and that is where exactly this TC Next is aimed for. Your question, how much in high volume? Not yet. It's in the early stages, in qualifications, and in two areas. So in the logic space, so single dies, but also one of the major memory producers is using our TC Next to prepare for the next generation. And that is what we mentioned last year when we received the order, five systems, ready to go once that becomes the mainstream.

Speaker #4: Your question, how much in high volume? Not yet. It's in the early stages. In qualifications, in and in two areas. So in the logic space, so single dies, but also one of the major memory producers is using our TC Next to prepare for the next generation.

Speaker #4: And that is what we mentioned last year when we received the order, five that becomes the mainstream.

Speaker #7: Perfect. Thank you. And just as a follow-up, then—you mentioned also earlier the adoption of hybrid bonding within '26 or '27. Just to understand what your expectations are right now, do you see hybrid bonding being adopted between all the HBM layers or only within certain layers?

Daniel Shafey: Perfect. Thank you. And just as a follow-up, then you mentioned also earlier the adoption of hybrid bonding within 2026 or 2027. Just to understand what your expectations are right now, do you see hybrid bonding being adopted between all the HBM layers or only within certain layers? Yeah, that would be just interesting to understand.

Speaker #7: Yeah, that would be just interesting to understand.

Speaker #4: Well, it can be a mix. There are different roadmaps showing a combination of a certain hybrid part of the stack and also a reflow part.

Richard Blickman: Well, it can, it can be a mix. There are different roadmaps showing a combination of a certain hybrid part of this stack and also a reflow part. So one has to go into a bit more detail to understand all of the roadmaps, but that is also why we have this two-track development strategy, that you have to cover both.

Speaker #4: So one has to go into a bit more detail to understand all of the roadmaps. But that is also why we have this two-track development strategy that you have to cover both.

Daniel Shafey: Oh, okay. Is it then dependent on the HBM structure itself, where I would say the mix is more hybrid bonding? Basically, the taller you go, my question, let's say you go-

Speaker #7: Okay. Is it then dependent on the HBM structure itself, where I would say the mix is more hybrid bonding? Basically, the taller you go—my question—let's say you go to...

Richard Blickman: No, it's all the reason, sorry to interrupt you, interrupt you, is simply performance. If you connect direct copper to copper, you have less heat in operating such a stack, and that allows you to get a higher power out of that stack. And the higher the stack, the more, let's say, loss of power you have due to the heat. So a mix can already help in that performance.

Speaker #4: No, it's all the reason—sorry to interrupt you—is simply performance. If you connect direct copper to copper, you have less heat in operating such a stack.

Speaker #4: And that allows you to get a higher power out of that stack. And the higher the stack, the more let's say loss of power you have due to the heat.

Speaker #4: So a mix can already help in that performance.

Speaker #7: Okay. Thank you.

Daniel Shafey: Okay. Thank you.

Richard Blickman: Thank you.

Speaker #4: Pleasure.

[Company Representative] (BE Semiconductor Industries N.V.): The next question comes from Nabil Assis, from Glasschild & Co., Redburn. Please go ahead.

Operator: The next question comes from Nabil Assis, from Glasschild & Co., Redburn. Please go ahead.

Speaker #1: The next question comes from Nabil Aziz from Grass Child and Co. Redburn. Please go ahead.

Speaker #8: Hey, Richard. Thanks for taking the question. So the first was just on hybrid bonding tool maturity. So I was just wondering if you could provide an update on the hybrid bonding tool maturity and progress that you're making on throughput and yield improvements.

Ruben Devos: Hey, Richard. Thanks for taking the question. So the first was just on hybrid bonding tool maturity. So I was just wondering if you could provide an update on the hybrid bonding tool maturity and progress that you're making on throughput and yield improvements.

Nabil Assis: Hey, Richard. Thanks for taking the question. So the first was just on hybrid bonding tool maturity. So I was just wondering if you could provide an update on the hybrid bonding tool maturity and progress that you're making on throughput and yield improvements.

Speaker #4: Well, we've come a long way. That after four years, you certainly can see enormous progress. And where do you see that progress? Number one, the predictability.

Richard Blickman: Well, we've come a long way. That after 4 years, you certainly can see enormous progress. And where do you see that progress?... is number one, the predictability of any application. So, understanding the right preparation time required and the preparation processes, remember, cleaning, tracking, and wet cleaning plasma, and that is the most, yeah, let's say, process technology, which sets us apart from many others. There are many bonders in the world which can place accurately, but exactly that bond process is where it's all about. Where are we right now? As I said in the beginning, we certainly have, but there's still a long way to go. The process itself is each time, you could say, every day improved.

Speaker #4: Of any application. So, understanding the right preparation time required and the preparation processes—remember cleaning, dry cleaning, wet cleaning, plasma—and that is the most, yeah, let's say, process technology which sets us apart from many others.

Speaker #4: There are many bonders in the world which can place accurately. But exactly that bond process is where it's all about. Where are we right now?

Speaker #4: As I said in the beginning, we certainly have, but there's still a long way to go. The process itself, each time—you could say every day—improved.

Richard Blickman: One of the issues is always throughput, so the time required to place the die accurately, and the faster you can do that, you have more output of that machine, and that influences the cost of ownership. So that battle is identical to what we have gone through with mass reflow flip chip for 25 years. Every year, either focus on accuracy improvement or focusing on throughput, and that combination is exactly the same challenge we have with now over 130 hybrid bonders operating in the field for larger dies, smaller dies, stacking dies, and that's where we are.

Speaker #4: One of the issues is always throughput. So the time required to place the die accurately, and the faster you can do that, you have more output of that machine, and that influences the cost of ownership.

Speaker #4: So that battle is identical to what we have gone through with mass reflow, flip chip, for 25 years. Every year, either focusing on accuracy improvement or focusing on throughput.

Speaker #4: And that combination is exactly the same challenge we have with now over 130 hybrid bonders operating in the field for larger dies, smaller dies, stacking dies, and that's where we are.

Speaker #8: Very clear. Just a quick follow-up on that. A lot of your competitors are starting to develop hybrid bonding solutions of their own, and in some cases, shipping R&D tools?

Ruben Devos: Very clear. Just a quick follow-up on that. A lot of your competitors are starting to develop hybrid bonding solutions of their own, and in some cases, shipping R&D tools. So I just wondered how you see the competitive landscape in hybrid bonding evolving, and how competitive are your peers' tools with your own? Thank you.

Nabil Assis: Very clear. Just a quick follow-up on that. A lot of your competitors are starting to develop hybrid bonding solutions of their own, and in some cases, shipping R&D tools. So I just wondered how you see the competitive landscape in hybrid bonding evolving, and how competitive are your peers' tools with your own? Thank you.

Speaker #8: So I just wondered how you see the competitive landscape in hybrid bonding evolving and how competitive are your peers' tools with your own? Thank you.

Speaker #4: Well, what we did share end of October was the simple fact that for the next round in Taiwan, that was based on the outcome of a complete landscape evaluation, where, because the orders were placed with us and are placed with us, the outcome is what it is today.

Richard Blickman: Well, what we did share end of October was the simple fact that for the next round in Taiwan, that was based on the outcome of a complete landscape evaluation, where because the orders were placed with us and are placed with us, the outcome is what it is today. But if you look at the whole landscape, everyone understands that hybrid, sooner or later, will become the mainstream technology for advanced packaging. So that's why every bonder company is focused on this market. How can you maintain your leadership? Because after 10 years, nearly, where we started this development with that big Taiwanese customer, it's all what I just said along the accuracy and speed. So today, the 100 nanometer is sufficient, covering the logic and the memory requirements as it looks today.

Speaker #4: But if you look at the whole landscape, everyone understands that hybrids sooner or later will become the mainstream technology for advanced packaging. So that's why every bonder company is focused on this market.

Speaker #4: How can you maintain your leadership? Because after 10 years, nearly, where we started this development with that big Taiwanese customer, it's all what I just said along the accuracy and speed.

Speaker #4: So today, the 100 nanometer is sufficient covering the logic and the memory requirements as it looks today. In the next year, we have to move down to 50 because of an next-generation technology.

Richard Blickman: In the next year, we have to move down to 50 because of the next generation technology, and then the accuracy and speed combination is what sets us apart from others. Also, what is very important is the partnerships. In this change of technology inflection from the assembly reflow space to hybrid bonding, hybrid bonding has to occur in front-end. A front-end requires complete different support structure than what we have in back-end. Through the partnership with Applied Materials, now for 5 years, we have come at the levels that is supporting the highest-end customers in the industry, and that combination is unique. So that support, so not only having a successful bonder, but also how to support customers 24/7 in a front-end environment, is a complete different challenge than in the back-end.

Speaker #4: And then the accuracy and speed combination is what sets us apart from others. Also, what is very important is the partnerships. In this change of technology and flexion, from the assembly reflow space to hybrid bonding, hybrid bonding has to occur in front end.

Speaker #4: And front end requires complete different support structure than what we have in back end. Through the partnership with Applied Materials, now for five years, we have come at the levels that is supporting the highest-end customers in the industry.

Speaker #4: And that combination is unique. So that support—so not only having a successful bonder, but also how to support customers 24/7 in a front-end environment—is a completely different challenge than in the back end.

Speaker #4: So, we see certainly competitors trying to participate in this market as well. But there's a very clear challenge for us to maintain that lead.

Richard Blickman: So we see certainly competitors trying to participate in this market as well, but there's a very clear challenge for us to maintain in that lead.

Speaker #8: Very clear. Thank you very much.

Ruben Devos: Very clear. Thank you very much.

Nabil Assis: Very clear. Thank you very much.

Speaker #4: Thank you.

Richard Blickman: Thank you.

[Company Representative] (BE Semiconductor Industries N.V.): The following question comes from Ruben Devos. Please go ahead.

Operator: The following question comes from Ruben Devos. Please go ahead.

Speaker #1: The following question comes from Ruben de Vos. Please go ahead.

Speaker #8: Yes. Good afternoon. I just had one on your prepared comments where you talked about new hybrid bonding use cases that were identified for co-packaged optics.

Marc Hesselink: Yes, good afternoon. I just had a question on your report-prepared comments where you talked about new hybrid bonding use cases that were identified for co-packaged optics. I was curious, is that mostly referencing sort of the material you presented at the Investor Day in June? I think you talked about sort of NVIDIA Spectrum X, which requiring 36 hybrid bonding tests per device. I think earlier in this call, you talked a bit about the factor difference between memory and logic, but how does that shape up for maybe co-packaged optics? And yeah, I think the mid-case was also somewhere around 50 cumulative units through 2030, but with the prepared comments around new use cases, might that already be contributing this year or next year?

Ruben Devos: Yes, good afternoon. I just had a question on your report-prepared comments where you talked about new hybrid bonding use cases that were identified for co-packaged optics. I was curious, is that mostly referencing sort of the material you presented at the Investor Day in June? I think you talked about sort of NVIDIA Spectrum X, which requiring 36 hybrid bonding tests per device. I think earlier in this call, you talked a bit about the factor difference between memory and logic, but how does that shape up for maybe co-packaged optics? And yeah, I think the mid-case was also somewhere around 50 cumulative units through 2030, but with the prepared comments around new use cases, might that already be contributing this year or next year?

Speaker #8: I was curious, is that mostly referencing sort of the material you presented at the investor day in June? I think you talked about sort of NVIDIA Spectrum X, which requiring 36 hybrid bonding steps per device.

Speaker #8: I think earlier in this call, you talked a bit about the factor difference between memory and logic. But how does that shape up for, maybe, co-packaged optics?

Speaker #8: And yeah, I think the mid-case was also somewhere around 50 cumulative units. Through 2030. But with the prepared comments around new use cases, might that already be contributing this year or next year?

Speaker #4: Well, that's a very, very big question. Number one, co-packaged optics is still in early days. And a lot of development is going on. With the use of a hybrid bonding because the accuracy is required.

Richard Blickman: ... Well, that's a very, very big question. Number one, co-packaged optics is still in early days, and a lot of development is going on with the use of hybrid bonding because the accuracy is required. So as shared in the capital markets day or in the investor day, that is going on, that's continuous development. How many systems that entails? I can't tell you at this very moment. So that's you could qualify that as the next step in technology. So we first have the interconnect, and co-packaged optics is a step beyond.

Speaker #4: So, as shared in the Capital Markets Day, or in the Investor Day that is going on, that's continuous development. How many systems does that entail?

Speaker #4: I can't tell you at this very moment. So that's you could qualify that as the next step in technology. So we first have the interconnect and co-packaged optics is a step beyond.

Speaker #8: Okay. And maybe it's something unrelated. Talking about the mainstream market, basically, that's what I was thinking about. It's I think you also talked about green shoots, right, after a four-year downturn.

Marc Hesselink: Okay. And maybe it's something unrelated, talking about the mainstream market. Basically, that's what I was thinking about. It's, I think you also talked about green shoots, right, after a full year, yeah, downturn. I think you mentioned smartphones, the mobile market, obviously, automotive and industrial are two other end-user markets. 50% of your business might already be computing, but so, yeah, a bit more color on maybe what you're seeing across the industry. What are maybe the die bond or utilization rates at this point? That would be very helpful.

Ruben Devos: Okay. And maybe it's something unrelated, talking about the mainstream market. Basically, that's what I was thinking about. It's, I think you also talked about green shoots, right, after a full year, yeah, downturn. I think you mentioned smartphones, the mobile market, obviously, automotive and industrial are two other end-user markets. 50% of your business might already be computing, but so, yeah, a bit more color on maybe what you're seeing across the industry. What are maybe the die bond or utilization rates at this point? That would be very helpful.

Speaker #8: I think you mentioned smartphones and the mobile market. Obviously, automotive and industrial are two other end-user markets. Fifty percent of your business might already be computing.

Speaker #8: But so yeah, a bit more color on maybe what you're seeing across the industry. What are maybe the dive bonder utilization rates at this point?

Speaker #8: That would be very helpful.

Speaker #4: Well, we have seen, as we said, green shoots. We see some of our main customers for years in automotive and industrial, after a long time, showing signs and having new programs where equipment will be required.

Richard Blickman: Well, we have seen, as we said, green shoots. We see some of our main customers for years in automotive and industrial, after a long time, showing signs and having new programs where equipment will be required, which gives a positive outlook for 2026. That is referenced to TechInsights, which also expects the market to carefully improve in 2026, more sizable in 2027. So that's how our comment is also based on. What we have seen in these 4 years of very modest capacity increase only for new devices. We have seen development of many new devices ready for next generation electronics, especially power devices for automotive, supposedly for hybrid application. So, hybrid cars, I mean, not hybrid bonding.

Speaker #4: Which gives a positive outlook for '26. That is referenced to tech insights, which also expects the market to carefully improve in '26, and become more sizable in '27.

Speaker #4: So that's how our comment is also based on. What we have seen in these four years of very modest capacity increase only for new devices, we have seen development of many new devices.

Speaker #4: Ready for next-generation electronics, especially power devices for automotive. Supposedly for hybrid application. So hybrid cars, I mean, not hybrid bonding. So in power, there's a lot happening.

Richard Blickman: So in power, there's a lot happening, but still the overall picture is not recovering to the extent which we are used to. But the growth in the other areas is so significant that that offsets the... Yeah, usually our revenue, we've shared that, forever. Automotive was between 15% and 20% of revenue. Now it's somewhere around 10 to 15, depends about which quarter. It probably will drop in the next quarters, or it has to turn, but that's about what it is, 10 to 15% of revenue.

Speaker #4: But still, the overall picture is not recovering to the extent which we are used to. But the growth in the other areas is so significant that that offsets the yeah, usually our revenue, we've shared that forever, automotive was between 15 and 20 percent of revenue.

Speaker #4: Now it's somewhere around 10 to 15. Depends which quarter. It probably will drop in the next quarters. Or it has to turn. But that's about what it is.

Speaker #4: 10 to 15 percent of revenue.

Speaker #8: All right. Thank you, Richard.

Marc Hesselink: All right. Thank you, Richard.

Ruben Devos: All right. Thank you, Richard.

Speaker #4: Thank you.

Richard Blickman: Sure.

[Company Representative] (BE Semiconductor Industries N.V.): The following question comes from Mark Hesselink, from ING. Please go ahead.

Operator: The following question comes from Mark Hesselink, from ING. Please go ahead.

Speaker #1: The following question comes from Mark Hesseling from ING. Please go ahead.

Martin Marandon-Carlhian: Yes, thanks. Can we have a bit more view on the 2.5D photonics opportunity? I think that is sort of a momentum that's been building up, yeah, throughout the year in 2025, and I think with a extremely strong end with the order intake towards the end of the year. Can you maybe see like... I would assume that in this business, maybe because it's strategic investments, the visibility is a bit higher than in your usual mainstream product portfolio. So can you maybe see what, how do you see this ramping the capacity? Is it just a few quarters, or is this a longer-term trend? Is this going to accelerate from where you are today?

Speaker #9: Yes. Thanks. Can we have a bit more view on the 2.5D photonics opportunity? I think that is sort of a momentum that's been building up throughout the year in '25.

Marc Hesselink: Yes, thanks. Can we have a bit more view on the 2.5D photonics opportunity? I think that is sort of a momentum that's been building up, yeah, throughout the year in 2025, and I think with a extremely strong end with the order intake towards the end of the year. Can you maybe see like... I would assume that in this business, maybe because it's strategic investments, the visibility is a bit higher than in your usual mainstream product portfolio. So can you maybe see what, how do you see this ramping the capacity? Is it just a few quarters, or is this a longer-term trend? Is this going to accelerate from where you are today?

Speaker #9: And I think with the extremely strong end with the order intake towards the end of the year. Can you maybe see, I would assume that in this business, maybe because it's strategic investments, the visibility is a bit higher than in your usual mainstream product portfolio.

Speaker #9: So, can you maybe say how you see this ramping—the capacity? Is it just a few quarters, or is this a longer-term trend?

Speaker #9: Is this going to accelerate from where you are today? Yeah, it would be very helpful to get some extra detail there.

Martin Marandon-Carlhian: Yeah, it would be very helpful to get some extra detail there.

Marc Hesselink: Yeah, it would be very helpful to get some extra detail there.

Speaker #4: Well, there are two growth drivers. Number one is simply the data center let's say capacity built in the world. So the connectors to connect those computers inside those data center units that is what we have been involved in for the past over 10 years.

Richard Blickman: Well, there are two, there are two growth drivers. Number one is simply the data center, let's say, capacity built in the world. So the connectors to connect those computers inside those, yeah, data center units, that, that is what, what we have been involved in for the past, over 10 years. But the second driver is that there's a technology step, and that will require twice the amount of steps, the interconnect steps in these connectors than the current generation. So there is definitely more growth ahead of us for these two drivers. So not just the growth in data centers, but also in technology. I mentioned already 10 years, huh? That started, well, over 10 years ago with Cisco modems.

Speaker #4: But the second driver is that there's a technology step, and that will require twice the amount of steps—the interconnect steps in these connectors—than the current generation.

Speaker #4: So there is definitely more growth ahead of us. For these two drivers, so not just the growth in data centers, but also in technology.

Speaker #4: I mentioned already ten years—that started well over ten years ago with Cisco, modems. And these connectors, it's a set of five main customers.

Richard Blickman: These connectors, it's a set of five main customers, and they all produce for the very big end customer. As long as that is growing as the world expects, we are directly linked to that. Does that answer your question?

Speaker #4: And they all produce for the very big end customer. And as long as that is growing as the world expects, we are directly linked to that.

Speaker #4: Does that answer your question?

Speaker #8: Yeah. Yes, it does. And maybe as a follow-up on that, now that you're also seeing a lot of that volume coming from the OSATs, is it then fair to assume that that implies that it becomes even more mainstream and even more adoption beyond what you just mentioned?

Martin Marandon-Carlhian: Yeah. Yes, it does. And maybe as a follow-up on that, and now that you're also seeing a lot of that volume coming from the OSAT, is it then fair to assume that that implies that it becomes even more mainstream, and even more adoption beyond what you just mentioned?

Marc Hesselink: Yeah. Yes, it does. And maybe as a follow-up on that, and now that you're also seeing a lot of that volume coming from the OSAT, is it then fair to assume that that implies that it becomes even more mainstream, and even more adoption beyond what you just mentioned?

Speaker #4: Yes, certainly. Certainly. And that's also publicly known—that the IDMs, as usual, offload more mature products to the subcontractor space. And the more complex the technology, the more attractive that is for the subcontractor space.

Richard Blickman: Yes, certainly. Certainly. And that's also publicly known that the IDMs, as usual, they offload more mature products to the subcontractor space. And the more complex the technology, the more attractive that is for the subcontractor space. And we know the big two leaders, both starting with an A, but then there are many subcontractors who are also involved in this expansion into mainstream for data center computing applications.

Speaker #4: And we know the big two leaders both starting with an A, but then there are many subcontractors who are also in yeah, involved in this expansion into mainstream for data center computing applications.

Speaker #9: Okay. Thank you. Very clear.

Martin Marandon-Carlhian: Okay. Thank you. Very clear.

Marc Hesselink: Okay. Thank you. Very clear.

Speaker #4: Thanks, Mark. Any further question?

Richard Blickman: Thanks, Mark. Any further question?

[Company Representative] (BE Semiconductor Industries N.V.): The following question comes from Martin Moradon Caldrian from Arete BHS. Please go ahead.

Operator: The following question comes from Martin Moradon Caldrian from Arete BHS. Please go ahead.

Speaker #1: The following question comes from Martin Maradon, Caldrian from Auto, BHS. Please go ahead.

Speaker #9: Hi, Richard. Thanks for taking my question. My first question is on the new fab of your Taiwanese customer, the AP7. Do you think the vast majority of the demand there will come from new customers adopting hybrid bonding, or do you also expect AMD to be a big contributor since the announcement of its deal with OpenAI?

[Analyst] (ODDO BHF): Hi, uh-

Martin Marandon: Hi, uh-

Richard Blickman: Hi.

[Analyst] (ODDO BHF): Thanks for taking my question.

Martin Marandon: Thanks for taking my question.

Richard Blickman: Hi.

[Analyst] (ODDO BHF): My first question is on the new fab of your Taiwanese customer, the AP7. Do you think the vast majority of the demand there will come from new customers adopting hybrid bonding, or do you also expect AMD to be a big contributor since the announcement of its deal with Open Air? That's the first one.

Martin Marandon: My first question is on the new fab of your Taiwanese customer, the AP7. Do you think the vast majority of the demand there will come from new customers adopting hybrid bonding, or do you also expect AMD to be a big contributor since the announcement of its deal with Open Air? That's the first one.

Speaker #9: That's the first one.

Speaker #4: Well, what we hear and I was just there two weeks ago there are several big companies, and we all know the names, either for high-end smartphones or for data center computing, who are supposedly on the brink of changing from reflow process designs to hybrid bonded designs in whatever end products.

Richard Blickman: Well, what we hear, and I was just there two weeks ago, there are several big companies, and we all know the names, huh? Either for high-end smartphones or for data center computing, who are supposedly on the brink of changing from reflow process designs to hybrid bonded designs in whatever end products. And that is the driver for a factory which is twice the size of what is currently the AP6. But then there's the next plan, AP7 is not the end. So there are major plans. So look at the model, which is shared by many of the front-end companies, what they expect in the next three years, the demand for AI translated into capacity, that similar model you can use for the advanced packaging. So a next node, plus an enormous expansion in end market demand.

Speaker #4: And that is the driver for a factory which is twice the size of what is currently the AP6. But then there's a next plan.

Speaker #4: AP7 is not the end. So there are major plans. So look at the model which is shared by many of the front-end companies, what they expect in the next three years.

Speaker #4: The demand for AI translated into capacity—that similar model you can use for the advanced packaging. So, a next node plus an enormous expansion in end-market demand.

Speaker #4: Whether that will work out is presented. We all know this industry. But anyway, that's the picture driving the programs in Taiwan.

Richard Blickman: Whether that all works out as presented, we all know this industry. But anyway, that's the picture driving the programs in Taiwan.

Speaker #9: Okay. Very clear. And the second one is a bit of a different one. It's on high-bandwidth flash HBF, some expect HBF to be necessary to improve memory capacity in the future.

[Analyst] (ODDO BHF): Okay, very clear. And the second one is a bit of a different one, is on the high bandwidth memory, HBM. You know, some expect HBM to be necessary to improve our memory capacity in future AI chip packaging. So yeah, my question is just, what do you think about this? Do you think it's a driver for hybrid bonding or TCB? Is it part of the current discussion with your customer or is it not really relevant in the near future?

Martin Marandon: Okay, very clear. And the second one is a bit of a different one, is on the high bandwidth memory, HBM. You know, some expect HBM to be necessary to improve our memory capacity in future AI chip packaging. So yeah, my question is just, what do you think about this? Do you think it's a driver for hybrid bonding or TCB? Is it part of the current discussion with your customer or is it not really relevant in the near future?

Speaker #9: AI chip packaging. So, yeah, my question is just: what do you think about this? Do you think it's a driver for hybrid bonding or TCB?

Speaker #9: Is it part of the current discussion with your customer, or is it not really relevant in the near future?

Speaker #4: Well, I can't answer that. Yeah, simply I have no let's say if I would, I would answer it, of course, for you. But time will tell.

Richard Blickman: Well, I can't answer that. Yeah, simply, I have no... Let's say, if I would, I would answer it, of course, for you, but time will tell, and we are certainly following that closely.

Speaker #4: And we are certainly following that closely.

Speaker #9: Okay, I understand. Thank you. Thank you, Richard.

[Analyst] (ODDO BHF): Okay, I understand. Thank you. Enjoy your talk.

Martin Marandon: Okay, I understand. Thank you. Enjoy your talk.

Speaker #4: Thank you.

Richard Blickman: Thank you.

Speaker #1: Ladies and gentlemen, we have arrived at the end of the presentation. I would now like to hand the word over to Mr. Richard Blickman for any closing remarks.

[Company Representative] (BE Semiconductor Industries N.V.): Ladies and gentlemen, we have arrived at the end of the presentation. I would now like to hand the word over to Mr. Richard Blickman for any closing remarks.

Operator: Ladies and gentlemen, we have arrived at the end of the presentation. I would now like to hand the word over to Mr. Richard Blickman for any closing remarks.

Speaker #4: Well, thank you all for joining us today. And in case you have any further questions, don't hesitate to contact us. Thank you. Bye-bye.

Richard Blickman: Well, thank you all for joining us today, and in case you have any further questions, don't hesitate to contact us. Thank you. Bye-bye.

Speaker #1: Ladies and gentlemen, you may now disconnect.

[Company Representative] (BE Semiconductor Industries N.V.): Ladies and gentlemen, you may now disconnect.

Operator: Ladies and gentlemen, you may now disconnect.

Martin Marandon-Carlhian: The host has ended this call. Goodbye.

Operator: The host has ended this call. Goodbye.

Q4 2025 BE Semiconductor Industries NV Earnings Call

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