Two Harbors Investment Q4 2025 Two Harbors Investment Corp Earnings Call | AllMind AI Earnings | AllMind AI
Q4 2025 Two Harbors Investment Corp Earnings Call
Speaker #1: Please stand
Speaker #2: Good morning. My name is by. Ruth, and I will be your conference facilitator. At this time, I would like to welcome everyone to TWO's fourth quarter 2025 financial results call.
Speaker #2: All participants are in a listen-only mode. After the speakers' remarks, there will be a question-and-answer period. I would now like to turn the call over to Maggie Karr.
Maggie Karr: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to our call to discuss Two Harbors' Q4 2025 financial results. With me on the call this morning are Bill Greenberg, our President and Chief Executive Officer, Nick Letica, our Chief Investment Officer, and William Dellal, our Chief Financial Officer. The earnings press release and presentation associated with today's call have been filed with the SEC and are available on the SEC's website as well as the Investor Relations page of our website at 2INV.com.
Speaker #3: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to our call to discuss TWO's fourth quarter 2025 financial results. With me on the call this morning are Bill Greenberg, our President and Chief Executive Officer, Nick Letica, our Chief Investment Officer, and William Dellal, our Chief Financial Officer.
Speaker #3: The earnings press release and presentation associated with today's call have been filed with the SEC and are available on the SEC's website as well as the Investor Relations page of our website at TWOINV.com.
Speaker #3: In our earnings release and presentation, we have provided reconciliations of GAAP to non-GAAP financial measures, and we urge you to review this information in conjunction with today's call.
Maggie Karr: In our earnings release and presentation, we have provided reconciliations of GAAP-to-non-GAAP financial measures, and we urge you to review this information in conjunction with today's call. As a reminder, our comments today will include forward-looking statements, which are subject to risks and uncertainties that may cause our results to differ materially from expectations. These are described on page two of the presentation and in our Form 10-K and subsequent reports filed with the SEC. Except as may be required by law, TWO does not update forward-looking statements and disclaims any obligation to do so. I will now turn the call over to Bill. Thank you, Maggie. Good morning, everyone, and welcome to our Q4 earnings call. I'm very excited to be able to speak to you all publicly for the first time about our recently announced merger with United Wholesale Mortgage.
In our earnings release and presentation, we have provided reconciliations of GAAP-to-non-GAAP financial measures, and we urge you to review this information in conjunction with today's call. As a reminder, our comments today will include forward-looking statements, which are subject to risks and uncertainties that may cause our results to differ materially from expectations. These are described on page two of the presentation and in our Form 10-K and subsequent reports filed with the SEC. Except as may be required by law, TWO does not update forward-looking statements and disclaims any obligation to do so. I will now turn the call over to Bill.
Speaker #3: As a reminder, our comments today will include forward-looking statements, which are subject to risks and uncertainties that may cause our results to differ materially from expectations.
Speaker #3: These are described on page two of the presentation and in our Form 10-K and subsequent reports filed with the SEC. Except as may be required by law, TWO does not update forward-looking statements and disclaims any obligation to do so.
Speaker #3: I will now turn the call over to
Speaker #3: Bill. Thank you, Maggie.
Bill Greenberg: Thank you, Maggie. Good morning, everyone, and welcome to our Q4 earnings call. I'm very excited to be able to speak to you all publicly for the first time about our recently announced merger with United Wholesale Mortgage.
Speaker #4: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to our fourth quarter earnings call. I'm very excited to be able to speak to you all publicly for the first time about our recently announced merger with United Wholesale Mortgage.
Speaker #4: The rationale for this transaction should be familiar to most mortgage market participants and observers. It was especially fitting given our own history as a company.
Maggie Karr: The rationale for this transaction should be familiar to most mortgage market participants and observers and was especially fitting given our own history as a company. So let me take a step back and describe why I say that. We were one of the first, if not the first, mortgage REIT to invest in MSR as part of our asset mix, obtaining our GSE approvals and state licenses to own and manage MSR, and then buying our first pool in 2013. We started out using third-party subservicers to service the asset, but as our servicing portfolio grew to a certain scale, it became clear to us that we could extract even more value from the asset and increase returns by bringing the servicing in-house, which we did in 2023 through our acquisition of RoundPoint.
The rationale for this transaction should be familiar to most mortgage market participants and observers and was especially fitting given our own history as a company. So let me take a step back and describe why I say that. We were one of the first, if not the first, mortgage REIT to invest in MSR as part of our asset mix, obtaining our GSE approvals and state licenses to own and manage MSR, and then buying our first pool in 2013. We started out using third-party subservicers to service the asset, but as our servicing portfolio grew to a certain scale, it became clear to us that we could extract even more value from the asset and increase returns by bringing the servicing in-house, which we did in 2023 through our acquisition of RoundPoint.
Speaker #4: So let me take a step back and describe why I say that. We were one of the first, if not the first, mortgage REIT to invest in MSR as part of our asset mix.
Speaker #4: Obtaining our GSE approvals and state licenses to own and manage MSR, and then buying our first pool in 2013. We started out using third-party sub-servicers to service the asset, but as our servicing portfolio grew to a certain scale, it became clear to us that we could extract even more value from the asset and increase returns by bringing the servicing in-house.
Speaker #4: Which we did in 2023 through our acquisition of Round Point. The last several years, really post-COVID, have highlighted the need for investors to be able to protect their MSR portfolio by providing recapture capabilities.
Maggie Karr: The last several years, really post-COVID, have highlighted the need for investors to be able to protect their MSR portfolio by providing recapture capabilities. Hence, we spun up a direct-to-consumer lending platform in 2024. However, in 2025, the mortgage finance landscape shifted again, with scale becoming more important than ever. It became clear to us that in order to succeed and compete effectively, our origination effort needed to be much, much bigger. This merger brings us together with the number one mortgage originator in the country, UWM, and doubles the size of the MSR portfolio to a pro forma $400 billion. UWM, in turn, also benefits from our expertise in capital markets and asset management, and they can leverage RoundPoint's best-in-class and low-cost servicing capabilities.
The last several years, really post-COVID, have highlighted the need for investors to be able to protect their MSR portfolio by providing recapture capabilities. Hence, we spun up a direct-to-consumer lending platform in 2024. However, in 2025, the mortgage finance landscape shifted again, with scale becoming more important than ever. It became clear to us that in order to succeed and compete effectively, our origination effort needed to be much, much bigger. This merger brings us together with the number one mortgage originator in the country, UWM, and doubles the size of the MSR portfolio to a pro forma $400 billion. UWM, in turn, also benefits from our expertise in capital markets and asset management, and they can leverage RoundPoint's best-in-class and low-cost servicing capabilities.
Speaker #4: Hence, we spun up a direct-to-consumer lending platform in 2024. However, in 2025, the mortgage finance landscape shifted again, with scale becoming more important than ever.
Speaker #4: It became clear to us that in order to succeed and compete effectively, our origination effort needed to be much, much bigger. This merger brings us together with the number one mortgage originator in the country in UWM and doubles the size of the MSR portfolio to a pro forma $400 billion.
Speaker #4: UWM, in turn, also benefits from our expertise in capital markets and asset management, and they can leverage RoundPoint's best-in-class and low-cost servicing capabilities.
Speaker #4: In many ways, this transaction is the culmination of the business plan that we've been aiming at for some time, and it creates, I believe, a very powerful strategic alignment and positions the combined company for accelerated growth and enhanced outcomes, which should deliver meaningful upside to shareholders.
Maggie Karr: In many ways, this transaction is the culmination of the business plan that we've been aiming at for some time, and it creates, I believe, a very powerful strategic alignment and positions the combined company for accelerated growth and enhanced outcomes, which should deliver meaningful upside to shareholders. Now, please turn to slide three. Our investment portfolio performed well as mortgage assets significantly outperformed their hedges, and our low-coupon MSR continued to behave as it was designed to do, earning its carry. For the fourth quarter, we generated a total economic return of +3.9%. For the full calendar year, 2025, we generated a total economic return on book value of -12.6%, though if you exclude the previously recorded litigation settlement expense of $3.60 per share, we returned a +12.1%.
In many ways, this transaction is the culmination of the business plan that we've been aiming at for some time, and it creates, I believe, a very powerful strategic alignment and positions the combined company for accelerated growth and enhanced outcomes, which should deliver meaningful upside to shareholders. Now, please turn to slide three. Our investment portfolio performed well as mortgage assets significantly outperformed their hedges, and our low-coupon MSR continued to behave as it was designed to do, earning its carry. For the fourth quarter, we generated a total economic return of +3.9%. For the full calendar year, 2025, we generated a total economic return on book value of -12.6%, though if you exclude the previously recorded litigation settlement expense of $3.60 per share, we returned a +12.1%.
Speaker #4: Now, please just turn to slide three. Our investment portfolio performed well as mortgage assets significantly outperformed their hedges, and our low coupon MSR continued to behave as it was designed to do, earning its carry.
Speaker #4: For the fourth quarter, we generated a total economic return of positive 3.9%. For the full calendar year 2025, we generated a total economic return on book value of negative 12.6%.
Speaker #4: Though if you exclude the previously recorded litigation settlement expense of $3.60 per share, we returned a positive 12.1%. Mortgage assets have thus far continued to outperform into the first quarter, driven in part by increased GSE buying and announcements from the administration committing to buying significant sizes of MBS.
Maggie Karr: Mortgage assets have thus far continued to outperform into Q1, driven in part by increased GSE buying and announcements from the administration committing to buying significant sizes of MBS. In situations like this, we take the administration's clear desire for lower mortgage rates at face value, and we recognize the possibility that they will ultimately succeed and create increased mortgage and origination activity in 2026. One question that we've heard from investors is around our securities portfolio and if, following the merger, we intend to liquidate the portfolio. In the short term, the answer is that we intend to manage our business in the ordinary course. Looking further out, I would say that while no decisions have been made yet, we will be thoughtful about how we proceed.
Mortgage assets have thus far continued to outperform into Q1, driven in part by increased GSE buying and announcements from the administration committing to buying significant sizes of MBS. In situations like this, we take the administration's clear desire for lower mortgage rates at face value, and we recognize the possibility that they will ultimately succeed and create increased mortgage and origination activity in 2026. One question that we've heard from investors is around our securities portfolio and if, following the merger, we intend to liquidate the portfolio. In the short term, the answer is that we intend to manage our business in the ordinary course. Looking further out, I would say that while no decisions have been made yet, we will be thoughtful about how we proceed.
Speaker #4: In situations like this, we take the administration's clear desire for lower mortgage rates at face value and we recognize the possibility that they will ultimately succeed and create increased mortgage and origination activity in 2026.
Speaker #4: One question that we've heard from investors is around our securities portfolio and if, following the merger, we intend to liquidate the portfolio. In the short term, the answer is that we intend to manage our business in the ordinary course.
Speaker #4: Looking further out, I would say that while no decisions have been made yet, we will be thoughtful about how we proceed. There are some paths that lead to selling some or all of these assets over time, and there are other paths where the combined company will need many or even more than our existing TBA and specified pool positions.
Maggie Karr: There are some paths that lead to selling some or all of these assets over time, and there are other paths where the combined company will need many or even more than our existing TBA and Specified Pool positions. These are still early days with respect to the merger, so when those details are more clear, we will be sure to update you. Please turn to slide 4. Performance across fixed income was positive in the Q4. The release of major conventional economic indicators was severely interrupted by the federal government shutdown, leaving the Fed and market participants without key data often used to assess the economy. Despite this, and in line with market expectations seen in figure 1, the Fed still delivered 2 25 basis point cuts in October and December.
There are some paths that lead to selling some or all of these assets over time, and there are other paths where the combined company will need many or even more than our existing TBA and Specified Pool positions. These are still early days with respect to the merger, so when those details are more clear, we will be sure to update you. Please turn to slide 4. Performance across fixed income was positive in the Q4. The release of major conventional economic indicators was severely interrupted by the federal government shutdown, leaving the Fed and market participants without key data often used to assess the economy. Despite this, and in line with market expectations seen in figure 1, the Fed still delivered 2 25 basis point cuts in October and December.
Speaker #4: These are still early days with respect to the merger, so when those details are more clear, we will be sure to update you. Please turn to slide four.
Speaker #4: Performance across fixed income was positive in the fourth quarter. The release of major conventional economic indicators was severely interrupted by the federal government shutdown, leaving the Fed and market participants without key data often used to assess the economy.
Speaker #4: Despite this, and in line with market expectations seen in figure one, the Fed still delivered two 25 basis point cuts in October and December.
Speaker #4: As a result, and as you can see in figure two, the yield curve steepens, with two-year Treasury yields down 14 basis points to 3.47%, while 10-year Treasury yields rose by two basis points to 4.17%, returning the yield curve to its steepest level since January 2022.
Maggie Karr: As a result, and as you can see in figure 2, the yield curve steepened, with 2-year Treasury yields down 14 basis points to 3.47%, while 10-year Treasury yields rose by 2 basis points to 4.17%, returning the yield curve to its steepest level since January 2022. Equity markets continued to react positively to the Fed cuts, with the S&P 500 up by 2.3% at quarter-end after setting all-time record highs earlier in the quarter. Please turn to slide 5. We settled on the sale of an additional $10 billion UPB of MSR out of our portfolio, increasing our total third-party subservicing to $40 billion at year-end compared to $30 billion at the end of the third quarter, while reducing our total owned servicing to approximately $162 billion from $176 billion the prior quarter.
As a result, and as you can see in figure 2, the yield curve steepened, with 2-year Treasury yields down 14 basis points to 3.47%, while 10-year Treasury yields rose by 2 basis points to 4.17%, returning the yield curve to its steepest level since January 2022. Equity markets continued to react positively to the Fed cuts, with the S&P 500 up by 2.3% at quarter-end after setting all-time record highs earlier in the quarter. Please turn to slide 5. We settled on the sale of an additional $10 billion UPB of MSR out of our portfolio, increasing our total third-party subservicing to $40 billion at year-end compared to $30 billion at the end of the third quarter, while reducing our total owned servicing to approximately $162 billion from $176 billion the prior quarter.
Speaker #4: Equity markets continue to react positively to the Fed cuts, with the S&P 500 up by 2.3% at quarter-end after setting all-time record highs earlier in the quarter.
Speaker #4: Please turn to slide five. We settled on the sale of an additional $10 billion UPB of MSR out of our portfolio, increasing our total third-party sub-servicing to $40 billion at year-end compared to $30 billion at the end of the third quarter.
Speaker #4: While reducing our total owned servicing to approximately $162 billion from $176 billion the prior quarter. Despite its small size, our DTC platform is punching above its weight and had a record quarter funding $94 million in first and second liens, a 90% increase from the third quarter.
Maggie Karr: Despite its small size, our DTC platform is punching above its weight and had a record quarter funding $94 million in first and second liens, a 90% increase from the third quarter. At quarter-end, we had an additional $38 million in our pipeline. We also brokered $58.5 million in second liens in the quarter, which was nearly unchanged quarter-over-quarter. Looking ahead, we are confident that the partnership with UWM will bring the benefits we have envisioned from the increased scale, and we believe this merger is extraordinarily positive for our company and for our shareholders. Now, I'd like to hand the call over to William to discuss our financial results. Thank you, Bill. Please turn to slide 6. Our book value increased to $11.13 per share at 31 December compared to $11.04 per share at 30 September.
Despite its small size, our DTC platform is punching above its weight and had a record quarter funding $94 million in first and second liens, a 90% increase from the third quarter. At quarter-end, we had an additional $38 million in our pipeline. We also brokered $58.5 million in second liens in the quarter, which was nearly unchanged quarter-over-quarter. Looking ahead, we are confident that the partnership with UWM will bring the benefits we have envisioned from the increased scale, and we believe this merger is extraordinarily positive for our company and for our shareholders. Now, I'd like to hand the call over to William to discuss our financial results.
Speaker #4: At quarter-end, we had an additional $38 million in our pipeline. We also brokered $58.5 million in second liens in the quarter, which was nearly unchanged quarter over quarter.
Speaker #4: Looking ahead, we are confident that the partnership with UWM will bring the benefits we have envisioned from the increased scale, and we believe this merger is extraordinarily positive for our company and for our shareholders.
Speaker #4: Now, I'd like to hand the call over to William to discuss our financial
Speaker #4: results. Thank you, Bill.
William Dellal: Thank you, Bill. Please turn to slide 6. Our book value increased to $11.13 per share at 31 December compared to $11.04 per share at 30 September.
Speaker #2: Please turn to slide six. Our book value increased to $11.13 per share at December 31st, compared to $11.04 per share at September 30th. Including the $0.34 common stock dividend, this resulted in a positive 3.9% quarterly economic return.
Maggie Karr: Including the $0.34 common stock dividend, this resulted in a +3.9% quarterly economic return. Please turn to slide 7. The company generated comprehensive income of $50.4 million or $0.48 per share. Net interest and servicing income, which is the sum of GAAP net interest expense and net servicing income before operating costs, decreased as a result of MSR sales and lower float income. Float income decreased largely as a result of lower interest rates and end-of-year seasonals that lowered balances. The net overall decline in portfolio asset yields was offset by lower financing costs. Mark-to-market gains and losses were lower in Q4 by $15.5 million due to MSR portfolio runoff and the yield steepening in rates. You can see the individual components of net interest and servicing income and mark-to-market gains and losses on appendix slide 20. Please turn to slide 8.
Including the $0.34 common stock dividend, this resulted in a +3.9% quarterly economic return. Please turn to slide 7. The company generated comprehensive income of $50.4 million or $0.48 per share. Net interest and servicing income, which is the sum of GAAP net interest expense and net servicing income before operating costs, decreased as a result of MSR sales and lower float income. Float income decreased largely as a result of lower interest rates and end-of-year seasonals that lowered balances. The net overall decline in portfolio asset yields was offset by lower financing costs. Mark-to-market gains and losses were lower in Q4 by $15.5 million due to MSR portfolio runoff and the yield steepening in rates. You can see the individual components of net interest and servicing income and mark-to-market gains and losses on appendix slide 20. Please turn to slide 8.
Speaker #2: Please turn to slide seven. The company generated comprehensive income of $50.4 million or 48 cents per share. Net interest and servicing income, which is the sum of GAAP net interest expense and net servicing income before operating costs, decreased as a result of MSR sales and lower float income.
Speaker #2: Float income decreased largely as a result of lower interest rates and end-of-year seasonals that lowered balances. The net overall decline in portfolio asset yields was offset by lower financing costs.
Speaker #2: Mark-to-market gains and losses were lower in the fourth quarter by $15.5 million due to MSR portfolio runoff and the bold steepening in rates.
Speaker #2: You can see the individual components of net interest and servicing income, and mark-to-market gains and losses, on appendix slide 20. Please turn to slide eight.
Speaker #2: On the left-hand side of this slide, you can see a breakdown of our balance sheet at quarter-end. We ended the quarter with over $800 million of cash on the balance sheet.
Maggie Karr: On the left-hand side of this slide, you can see a breakdown of our balance sheet at quarter-end. We ended the quarter with over $800 million of cash on the balance sheet, and in accordance with our previously disclosed plans, we repaid our convertible senior notes of $261.9 million in full on their 15 January 2026 maturity date. RMBS funding markets remained stable and available throughout the quarter, with repurchase spreads at around SOFR plus 23 basis points. At quarter-end, our weighted average days to maturity for our agency RMBS repo was 54 days. As a reminder, our days to maturity are typically lower at 31 December, as we intentionally roll repos in the third quarter past year-end to avoid any disruption in funding that can sometimes occur.
On the left-hand side of this slide, you can see a breakdown of our balance sheet at quarter-end. We ended the quarter with over $800 million of cash on the balance sheet, and in accordance with our previously disclosed plans, we repaid our convertible senior notes of $261.9 million in full on their 15 January 2026 maturity date. RMBS funding markets remained stable and available throughout the quarter, with repurchase spreads at around SOFR plus 23 basis points. At quarter-end, our weighted average days to maturity for our agency RMBS repo was 54 days. As a reminder, our days to maturity are typically lower at 31 December, as we intentionally roll repos in the third quarter past year-end to avoid any disruption in funding that can sometimes occur.
Speaker #2: And in accordance with our previously disclosed plans, we repaid our convertible senior notes of $261.9 million in full on their January 15, 2026 maturity date.
Speaker #2: Our MBS funding markets remained stable and available throughout the quarter with repurchase spreads at around SOFR plus 23 basis points. At quarter-end, our weighted average days to maturity for our agency RMBS repo was 54 days.
Speaker #2: As a reminder, our days to maturity are typically lower at December 31st as we intentionally roll repos in the third quarter past year-end to avoid any disruption in funding that can sometimes occur.
Speaker #2: We finance our MSR, including the MSR assets and related servicing advance obligations, across five lenders. With 1.6 billion dollars of outstanding borrowings under bilateral facilities.
Maggie Karr: We finance our MSR, including the MSR asset and related servicing advance obligations, across 5 lenders, with $1.6 billion of outstanding borrowings under bilateral facilities. We ended the quarter with a total of $1.1 billion in unused MSR asset financing capacity. We have $71.5 million drawn on our servicing advances facility, with an additional $78.5 million of available capacity. I will now turn the call over to Nick. Thank you, William. Please turn to slide 9. Our portfolio performed well in the fourth quarter, as both MSR and RMBS returns benefited from the decline of interest rate volatility, together with strong demand for spread assets. At 31 December, the portfolio was $13.2 billion, including $9 billion in settled positions and $4.2 billion in TBAs. Our primary risk metrics quarter-over-quarter were not materially different.
We finance our MSR, including the MSR asset and related servicing advance obligations, across 5 lenders, with $1.6 billion of outstanding borrowings under bilateral facilities. We ended the quarter with a total of $1.1 billion in unused MSR asset financing capacity. We have $71.5 million drawn on our servicing advances facility, with an additional $78.5 million of available capacity. I will now turn the call over to Nick.
Speaker #2: We ended the quarter with a total of 1.1 billion dollars in unused MSR asset financing capacity. We have 71.5 million dollars drawn on our servicing advances facility with an additional 78.5 million dollars of available capacity.
Speaker #2: I will now turn the call over to Nick.
Nick Letica: Thank you, William. Please turn to slide 9. Our portfolio performed well in the fourth quarter, as both MSR and RMBS returns benefited from the decline of interest rate volatility, together with strong demand for spread assets. At 31 December, the portfolio was $13.2 billion, including $9 billion in settled positions and $4.2 billion in TBAs. Our primary risk metrics quarter-over-quarter were not materially different.
Speaker #3: Thank you, William. Please turn to slide nine. Our portfolio performed well in the fourth quarter as both MSR and RMBS returns benefited from the decline of interest rate volatility together with strong demand for spread assets.
Speaker #3: At December 31st, the portfolio was 13.2 billion including 9 billion in settled positions and 4.2 billion in TBAs. Our primary risk metrics quarter-over-quarter were not materially different.
Speaker #3: Our economic debt-to-equity was slightly lower at seven times, and our portfolio sensitivity to spread changes marginally increased from 2.3% to 3.7% if spreads were to tighten by 25 basis points.
Maggie Karr: Our economic debt to equity was slightly lower at 7 times, and our portfolio sensitivity to spread changes marginally increased from 2.3 to 3.7% if spreads were to tighten by 25 basis points. We kept interest rate risks low in aggregate and across the yield curve. You can see more details on our risk exposures on appendix slide 17. Please turn to slide 10. The trend of lower interest rate volatility continued throughout the Q4, resulting in the 1-month realized volatility of 10-year swap rates falling into the bottom fifth percentile over the past decade, dragging implied volatility down as well. As you can see in figure 1, 2-year options on 10-year swap rates, shown by the green line, closed the quarter at 79 basis points, 4 basis points below its average level over the past 10 years.
Our economic debt to equity was slightly lower at 7 times, and our portfolio sensitivity to spread changes marginally increased from 2.3 to 3.7% if spreads were to tighten by 25 basis points. We kept interest rate risks low in aggregate and across the yield curve. You can see more details on our risk exposures on appendix slide 17. Please turn to slide 10. The trend of lower interest rate volatility continued throughout the Q4, resulting in the 1-month realized volatility of 10-year swap rates falling into the bottom fifth percentile over the past decade, dragging implied volatility down as well. As you can see in figure 1, 2-year options on 10-year swap rates, shown by the green line, closed the quarter at 79 basis points, 4 basis points below its average level over the past 10 years.
Speaker #3: We kept interest rate risks low in aggregate and across the yield curve. You can see more details on our risk exposures on appendix slide 17.
Speaker #3: Please turn to slide 10. The trend of lower interest rate volatility continued throughout the fourth quarter, resulting in the one-month realized volatility of 10-year swap rates falling into the bottom fifth percentile over the past decade, dragging implied volatility down as well.
Speaker #3: As you can see in figure one, two-year options on 10-year swap rates shown by the green line closed the quarter at 79 basis points four basis points below its average level over the past 10 years.
Speaker #3: RMBS spreads responded very positively to the decline in volatility, the steepening of the yield curve, and the prospect of strong demand in 2026, primarily from banks, REITs, and the GSEs.
Maggie Karr: RMBS spreads responded very positively to the decline in volatility, the steepening of the yield curve, and the prospect of strong demand in 2026, primarily from banks, REITs, and the GSEs. The nominal spread for current coupon RMBS tightened by 30 basis points to 114 basis points of the swap curve, while option-adjusted spreads relative to SOFR finished 23 basis points tighter at 45 basis points, as shown by the purple and blue lines, respectively. This decline in current coupon nominal spreads brought mortgages to their tightest level since Q2 2022. Figure 1 includes data up to 29 January, and as you can see, spreads have continued to tighten further into this quarter. It wasn't just current coupon mortgages that outperformed. Spreads across the coupon stack, both on a static and option-adjusted basis, shifted lower, as you can see in Figure 2.
RMBS spreads responded very positively to the decline in volatility, the steepening of the yield curve, and the prospect of strong demand in 2026, primarily from banks, REITs, and the GSEs. The nominal spread for current coupon RMBS tightened by 30 basis points to 114 basis points of the swap curve, while option-adjusted spreads relative to SOFR finished 23 basis points tighter at 45 basis points, as shown by the purple and blue lines, respectively. This decline in current coupon nominal spreads brought mortgages to their tightest level since Q2 2022. Figure 1 includes data up to 29 January, and as you can see, spreads have continued to tighten further into this quarter. It wasn't just current coupon mortgages that outperformed. Spreads across the coupon stack, both on a static and option-adjusted basis, shifted lower, as you can see in Figure 2.
Speaker #3: The nominal spread for current coupon RMBS tightened by 30 basis points to 114 basis points off the swap curve, while option-adjusted spreads relative to SOFR finished 23 basis points tighter at 45 basis points, as shown by the purple and blue lines, respectively.
Speaker #3: This decline in current coupon nominal spreads brought mortgages to their tightest level since the second quarter of 2022. Figure one includes data up to January 29th and as you can see spreads have continued to tighten further into this quarter.
Speaker #3: It wasn't just current coupon mortgages that outperformed. Spreads across the coupon stack, both on a static and option-adjusted basis, shifted lower, as you can see in Figure 2.
Speaker #3: Please turn to slide 11 to review our agency RMBS portfolio. Figure one shows the performance of TBAs and specified pools we own throughout this quarter.
Maggie Karr: Please turn to slide 11 to review our agency RMBS portfolio. Figure 1 shows the performance of TBAs and specified pools we owned throughout this quarter. Hedged RMBS performance was positive across the 30-year coupon stack, with the best performance in 4.5% and 5% coupons, where we have our largest pool exposures. Notably, the hedged performance of RMBS was aided by the widening of swap spreads, which have made up over 75% of our hedges. To give a sense of magnitude, 10-year swap spreads widened by 13 basis points to an 18-month high. Our pass-through position was largely stable quarter-over-quarter. However, although we continue to like the sector and the carefully selected prepayment-protected collateral behind our bonds, we reduced our inverse IO position by almost 50% to reduce our exposure to higher coupons. Primary mortgage rates drifted a little lower over the quarter, stabilizing around 6.25%.
Please turn to slide 11 to review our agency RMBS portfolio. Figure 1 shows the performance of TBAs and specified pools we owned throughout this quarter. Hedged RMBS performance was positive across the 30-year coupon stack, with the best performance in 4.5% and 5% coupons, where we have our largest pool exposures. Notably, the hedged performance of RMBS was aided by the widening of swap spreads, which have made up over 75% of our hedges. To give a sense of magnitude, 10-year swap spreads widened by 13 basis points to an 18-month high. Our pass-through position was largely stable quarter-over-quarter. However, although we continue to like the sector and the carefully selected prepayment-protected collateral behind our bonds, we reduced our inverse IO position by almost 50% to reduce our exposure to higher coupons. Primary mortgage rates drifted a little lower over the quarter, stabilizing around 6.25%.
Speaker #3: Hedged RMBS performance was positive across the 30-year coupon stack, with the best performance in 4.5% and 5% coupons where we have our largest pool exposures.
Speaker #3: Notably, the hedge performance of RMBS was aided by the widening of swap spreads which have made up over 75% of our hedges. To give a sense of magnitude, 10-year swap spreads widened by 13 basis points to an 18-month high.
Speaker #3: Our pass-through position was largely stable quarter-over-quarter. However, although we continue to like the sector and the carefully selected prepayment-protected collateral behind our bonds, we reduced our inverse I/O position by almost 50% to reduce our exposure to higher coupons.
Speaker #3: Primary mortgage rates drifted a little lower over the quarter stabilizing around 6.25%. The share of the universe of 30-year loans eligible for refinance returned to nearly 20% for the first time in years and as we had anticipated speeds for refinanceable coupons continued to increase.
Maggie Karr: The share of the universe of 30-year loans eligible for refinance returned to nearly 20% for the first time in years, and as we had anticipated, speeds for refinanceable coupons continued to increase. The prepayment S-curve steepened back to a more regular shape associated with periods when a larger share of mortgages are refinanceable, such as in late 2019. Figure 2 on the bottom right shows our specified pool prepayment speeds by coupon, which on aggregate increased only very slightly to 8.6% from 8.3% CPR, coming from increases in speeds from 5.5% coupons and higher. That said, the CPR increases on our pools were small and in line with our expectations, evidencing the value of careful pool selection. Please turn to slide 12. You can see in Figure 1 the volume of MSR available in 2025 declined from prior years.
The share of the universe of 30-year loans eligible for refinance returned to nearly 20% for the first time in years, and as we had anticipated, speeds for refinanceable coupons continued to increase. The prepayment S-curve steepened back to a more regular shape associated with periods when a larger share of mortgages are refinanceable, such as in late 2019. Figure 2 on the bottom right shows our specified pool prepayment speeds by coupon, which on aggregate increased only very slightly to 8.6% from 8.3% CPR, coming from increases in speeds from 5.5% coupons and higher. That said, the CPR increases on our pools were small and in line with our expectations, evidencing the value of careful pool selection. Please turn to slide 12. You can see in Figure 1 the volume of MSR available in 2025 declined from prior years.
Speaker #3: The prepayment S-curve steepened back to a more regular shape associated with periods when a larger share of mortgages are refinanceable such as in late 2019.
Speaker #3: Figure 2 on the bottom right shows our specified pool prepayment speeds by coupon, which on aggregate increased only very slightly to 8.6% from 8.3% CPR, coming from increases in speeds from five-and-a-half coupons and higher.
Speaker #3: That said, the CPR increases on our pools were small and in line with our expectations, evidencing the value of careful pool selection. Please turn to slide 12.
Speaker #3: You can see in figure one the volume of MSR available in 2025 declined from prior years. The market continues to be well subscribed with strong demand from originators as well as bank and non-bank portfolios competing for greater scale in MSRs.
Maggie Karr: The market continues to be well-subscribed, with strong demand from originators, as well as bank and non-bank portfolios, competing for greater scale in MSRs. Indeed, as Bill said, scale has become increasingly important for mortgage companies to compete in the MSR market. The merger of Two Harbors and UWM will result in a combined company that is positioned for accelerated growth and has the ability to compete effectively in this market. Figure 2 shows that with mortgage rates at their current level of around 6.25%, only about 3% of our MSR portfolio is considered in the money. If mortgage rates were to drop to around 5%, the portion of our portfolio in the money would rise to about 9%.
The market continues to be well-subscribed, with strong demand from originators, as well as bank and non-bank portfolios, competing for greater scale in MSRs. Indeed, as Bill said, scale has become increasingly important for mortgage companies to compete in the MSR market. The merger of Two Harbors and UWM will result in a combined company that is positioned for accelerated growth and has the ability to compete effectively in this market. Figure 2 shows that with mortgage rates at their current level of around 6.25%, only about 3% of our MSR portfolio is considered in the money. If mortgage rates were to drop to around 5%, the portion of our portfolio in the money would rise to about 9%.
Speaker #3: Indeed, as Bill said, scale has become increasingly important for mortgage companies to compete in the MSR market. The merger of Two and UWM will result in a combined company that is positioned for accelerated growth and has the ability to compete effectively in this market.
Speaker #3: Figure Two shows that with mortgage rates at their current level, around 6.25%, only about 3% of our MSR portfolio is considered in the money.
Speaker #3: If mortgage rates were to drop to around 5% the portion of our portfolio in the money would rise to about 9%. Given that the current administration in Washington is focused on policies to stimulate the housing market and increase homeownership we anticipate that home prices will continue to rise and housing turnover will trend higher from its current historically low levels.
Maggie Karr: Given that the current administration in Washington is focused on policies to stimulate the housing market and increase home ownership, we anticipate that home prices will continue to rise and housing turnover will trend higher from its current historically low levels. Please turn to slide 13, where we will discuss our MSR portfolio. Figure 1 is an overview of our portfolio at quarter-end, further details of which can be found on appendix slide 23. In Q4, we settled about $400 million UPB of MSR from flow acquisitions, and recapture, and we sold $9.6 billion UPB on a servicing-retained basis. The price multiple of our MSR was consistent quarter-over-quarter at 5.8x, and 60+-day delinquencies remained low at under 1%. Figure 2 compares CPRs across those implied security coupons and our portfolio of MSR versus TBAs.
Given that the current administration in Washington is focused on policies to stimulate the housing market and increase home ownership, we anticipate that home prices will continue to rise and housing turnover will trend higher from its current historically low levels. Please turn to slide 13, where we will discuss our MSR portfolio. Figure 1 is an overview of our portfolio at quarter-end, further details of which can be found on appendix slide 23. In Q4, we settled about $400 million UPB of MSR from flow acquisitions, and recapture, and we sold $9.6 billion UPB on a servicing-retained basis. The price multiple of our MSR was consistent quarter-over-quarter at 5.8x, and 60+-day delinquencies remained low at under 1%. Figure 2 compares CPRs across those implied security coupons and our portfolio of MSR versus TBAs.
Speaker #3: Please turn to slide 13, where we will discuss our MSR portfolio. Figure one is an overview of our portfolio at quarter end, further details of which can be found in appendix slide 23.
Speaker #3: In the fourth quarter we settled about $400 million UPB of MSR from flow acquisitions and recapture and we sold 9.6 billion UPB on a servicing retained basis.
Speaker #3: The price multiple of our MSR was consistent quarter over quarter at 5.8 times and 60 plus day delinquencies remained low at under 1%. Figure two compares CPRs across those implied security coupons in our portfolio of MSR versus TBAs.
Speaker #3: Quarter over quarter, our MSR portfolio experienced a minor 0.4 percentage point pickup in prepayment rates to 6.4%. Importantly, prepays have remained below our projections for the majority of our portfolio, which has been a positive tailwind for returns.
Maggie Karr: Quarter over quarter, our MSR portfolio experienced a minor 0.4 percentage point pickup in prepayment rates to 6.4%. Importantly, prepays have remained below our projections for the majority of our portfolio, which has been a positive tailwind for returns. Finally, please turn to slide 14, our return potential and outlook slide. This is a forward-looking projection of our expected portfolio returns, which takes into account the repayment of the $262 million of convertible notes that occurred in January. We estimate that about 65% of our capital is allocated to servicing, with a static return projection of 10% to 13%. The remaining capital is allocated to securities, with a static return estimate of 10% to 14%.
Quarter over quarter, our MSR portfolio experienced a minor 0.4 percentage point pickup in prepayment rates to 6.4%. Importantly, prepays have remained below our projections for the majority of our portfolio, which has been a positive tailwind for returns. Finally, please turn to slide 14, our return potential and outlook slide. This is a forward-looking projection of our expected portfolio returns, which takes into account the repayment of the $262 million of convertible notes that occurred in January. We estimate that about 65% of our capital is allocated to servicing, with a static return projection of 10% to 13%. The remaining capital is allocated to securities, with a static return estimate of 10% to 14%.
Speaker #3: Finally, please turn to slide 14 our return potential and outlook slide. This is a forward-looking projection of our expected portfolio returns which takes into account the repayment of the $262 million of convertible notes that occurred in January.
Speaker #3: We estimate that about 65% of our capital is allocated to servicing, with a static return projection of 10% to 13%. The remaining capital is allocated to securities with a static return estimate of 10% to 14%.
Speaker #3: With our portfolio allocation shown in the top half of the table, and after expenses, the static return estimate for our portfolio would be between 6.9% to 10.2%, before applying any capital structure leverage to the portfolio.
Maggie Karr: With our portfolio allocation shown in the top half of the table and after expenses, the static return estimate for our portfolio would be between 6.9% to 10.2% before applying any capital structure leverage to the portfolio. After giving effect to our unsecured notes and preferred stock, we believe that the potential static return on common equity falls in the range of 5.8% to 11.1% or a prospective quarterly static return per share of $0.16 to 0.31. The reduction in return potential quarter-over-quarter is driven primarily by the large tightening of RMBS spreads and the sales of inverse IOs. Since quarter-end, the announcement of explicit support for MBS spreads from the FHFA director has led to more spread tightening.
With our portfolio allocation shown in the top half of the table and after expenses, the static return estimate for our portfolio would be between 6.9% to 10.2% before applying any capital structure leverage to the portfolio. After giving effect to our unsecured notes and preferred stock, we believe that the potential static return on common equity falls in the range of 5.8% to 11.1% or a prospective quarterly static return per share of $0.16 to 0.31. The reduction in return potential quarter-over-quarter is driven primarily by the large tightening of RMBS spreads and the sales of inverse IOs. Since quarter-end, the announcement of explicit support for MBS spreads from the FHFA director has led to more spread tightening.
Speaker #3: After giving effect to our unsecured notes and preferred stock we believe that the potential static return on common equity falls in the range of 5.8 to 11.1% or a prospective quarterly static return per share of 16 to 31 cents.
Speaker #3: The reduction in return potential quarter over quarter is driven primarily by the large tightening of RMBS spreads and the sales of inverse I/Os. Since quarter end, the announcement of explicit support for MBS spreads from the FHFA director has led to more spread tightening.
Speaker #3: Spreads for agency RMBS have now fully retraced their widening over the past three-plus years, leaving spreads historically rich on some measures, like Treasury-based OAS, for example, to fair versus swaps in periods when the GSEs have been active.
Maggie Karr: Spreads for agency RMBS have now fully retraced their widening over the past three-plus years, leaving spreads historically rich on some measures, like treasury-based OAS, for example, too fair versus swaps in periods when the GSEs have been active. As RMBS spreads have normalized, the potential for more tightening and resulting book value benefit of holding RMBS has been significantly reduced. That said, continued GSE buying and/or other future policy actions aimed at supporting mortgage spreads could keep spreads tight and limit their widening and risk-off scenarios. Given all that, we believe that this environment favors our paired portfolio construction of MSR and agency RMBS, which has less exposure to fluctuations in mortgage spreads. We expect that demand for MSR will remain strong among the origination and investor communities.
Spreads for agency RMBS have now fully retraced their widening over the past three-plus years, leaving spreads historically rich on some measures, like treasury-based OAS, for example, too fair versus swaps in periods when the GSEs have been active. As RMBS spreads have normalized, the potential for more tightening and resulting book value benefit of holding RMBS has been significantly reduced. That said, continued GSE buying and/or other future policy actions aimed at supporting mortgage spreads could keep spreads tight and limit their widening and risk-off scenarios. Given all that, we believe that this environment favors our paired portfolio construction of MSR and agency RMBS, which has less exposure to fluctuations in mortgage spreads. We expect that demand for MSR will remain strong among the origination and investor communities.
Speaker #3: As RMBS spreads have normalized, the potential for more tightening and resulting book value benefit of holding RMBS has been significantly reduced. That said, continued GSE buying and/or other future policy actions aimed at supporting mortgage spreads could keep spreads tight and limit their widening in risk-off scenarios.
Speaker #3: Given all that we believe that this environment favors our paired portfolio construction of MSR and agency RMBS which has less exposure to fluctuations in mortgage spreads.
Speaker #3: We expect that demand for MSR will remain strong among the origination and investor communities. Though RMBS spreads have tightened, the paired construction of our low mortgage rate MSR with RMBS generates attractive risk-adjusted returns with lower expected volatility than a portfolio of RMBS hedged with rates.
Maggie Karr: Though RMBS spreads have tightened, the paired construction of our low mortgage rate MSR with RMBS generates attractive risk-adjusted returns with lower expected volatility than a portfolio of RMBS hedged with rates. Thank you very much for joining us today, and now I'll be happy to take any questions you might have. Thank you. If you are dialed in via the telephone and would like to ask a question, please signal by pressing star one on your telephone keypad. If you're using a speakerphone, please make sure your mute function is turned off to allow your signal to reach our equipment. Again, please press star one to ask a question. We'll pause for just a moment. We'll go first to Rick Shane with JP Morgan. Thanks, guys, for taking my questions, and congratulations on the announcement.
Though RMBS spreads have tightened, the paired construction of our low mortgage rate MSR with RMBS generates attractive risk-adjusted returns with lower expected volatility than a portfolio of RMBS hedged with rates. Thank you very much for joining us today, and now I'll be happy to take any questions you might have.
Speaker #3: Thank you very much for joining us today and now I'll be happy to take any questions you might
Speaker #3: have. Thank you.
Operator: Thank you. If you are dialed in via the telephone and would like to ask a question, please signal by pressing star one on your telephone keypad. If you're using a speakerphone, please make sure your mute function is turned off to allow your signal to reach our equipment. Again, please press star one to ask a question. We'll pause for just a moment. We'll go first to Rick Shane with JP Morgan.
Speaker #1: If you're dialed in via the telephone and would like to ask a question please signal by pressing star one on your telephone keypad. If you're using a speakerphone please make sure your mute function is turned off to allow your signal to reach our equipment.
Speaker #1: Again, please press star one to ask a question. We'll pause for just a moment. We'll go first to Rick Shane with J.P. Morgan.
Speaker #1: Morgan. Thanks guys for taking my
Rick Shane: Thanks, guys, for taking my questions, and congratulations on the announcement.
Speaker #2: Questions. And congratulations on the announcement. I am curious, as we sort of move through this period tactically, how you think about portfolio construction. I realize that you guys continue to, and need to from a governance perspective, operate as an independent company, but obviously there are strategic reasons for the acquisition.
Maggie Karr: I am curious, as we sort of move through this period, tactically how you think about portfolio construction. I realize that you guys continue to and need to, from a governance perspective, operate as an independent company, but obviously, there are strategic reasons for the acquisition. Is that shifting your tactical allocation of capital in any way as you construct the portfolio into year-end, and is that one of the other factors that's impacting your static return outlook? Yeah. Good morning, Rick. Thanks for the question. No, I think you put your finger on it. We're operating as an independent company. We're managing our portfolio as we normally would in the ordinary course.
I am curious, as we sort of move through this period, tactically how you think about portfolio construction. I realize that you guys continue to and need to, from a governance perspective, operate as an independent company, but obviously, there are strategic reasons for the acquisition. Is that shifting your tactical allocation of capital in any way as you construct the portfolio into year-end, and is that one of the other factors that's impacting your static return outlook?
Speaker #2: Is that shifting your tactical allocation of capital in any way as you construct the portfolio into year-end, and is that one of the other factors that's impacting your static return?
Speaker #2: outlook? Yeah good morning Rick
Bill Greenberg: Yeah. Good morning, Rick. Thanks for the question. No, I think you put your finger on it. We're operating as an independent company. We're managing our portfolio as we normally would in the ordinary course.
Speaker #3: thanks for the question. No I think you put your finger on it we're operating as an independent company we're managing our portfolio as we normally would in the ordinary course you know the changes you've seen in the portfolio have been in response to you know market assessments of risk and reward.
Maggie Karr: The changes you've seen in the portfolio have been in response to market assessments of risk and reward, and we're continuing to manage the portfolio as we ordinarily would and do, and the investment decisions that we're making are in line with the way that we have always historically managed the portfolio. Got it. Okay. Thank you. And then I must have gotten up especially early today because I'm first in queue. I don't think I heard you talk about an update on book value, but I get to ask the question this time. So where is book value most recent, Mark? Hey, Rick. This is Nick. It's good that you got the opportunity to ask that question this quarter. We are up about 1.5% to 2% as of Friday, 30 January. Terrific. Thank you, guys. Thanks, Rick. We'll go next to Doug Harter with UBS. Thanks and good morning.
The changes you've seen in the portfolio have been in response to market assessments of risk and reward, and we're continuing to manage the portfolio as we ordinarily would and do, and the investment decisions that we're making are in line with the way that we have always historically managed the portfolio.
Speaker #3: And we're continuing to manage the portfolio as we ordinarily would and do and the investment decisions that we're making are in line with the way that we have always historically managed the
Speaker #3: portfolio.
Rick Shane: Got it. Okay. Thank you. And then I must have gotten up especially early today because I'm first in queue. I don't think I heard you talk about an update on book value, but I get to ask the question this time. So where is book value most recent, Mark?
Speaker #2: Got it okay
Speaker #2: thank you. And then I must have gotten up especially early today because I'm first in queue. I don't think I heard you talk about an update on book value but I get to ask the question this time if so where is book value most
Speaker #2: recent Mark? Hey
Nick Letica: Hey, Rick. This is Nick. It's good that you got the opportunity to ask that question this quarter. We are up about 1.5% to 2% as of Friday, 30 January.
Speaker #4: Rick this is Nick. You know it's good that you got the opportunity to ask that question this quarter. We are up about one and a half to two percent as of Friday January 30th.
Speaker #4: Rick this is Nick. You know it's good that you got the opportunity to ask that question this quarter. We are up about one and a half to two percent as of Friday January 30th.
Rick Shane: Terrific. Thank you, guys.
Speaker #2: Terrific thank you guys.
Bill Greenberg: Thanks, Rick.
Speaker #3: Thanks Rick.
Operator: We'll go next to Doug Harter with UBS.
Speaker #1: We'll go next to Doug Harter with UBS.
Doug Harter: Thanks and good morning.
Speaker #5: Thanks and good morning. Hoping you could just talk about you know how you're thinking about leverage Nick given your comments around you know kind of the MBS market you know and just you know how interested you would be in continuing to kind of add at these spreads you know kind of given the cross currents that you mentioned and you know just overall you know your view on risk-reward.
Maggie Karr: Hoping you could just talk about how you're thinking about leverage, Nick, given your comments around kind of the MBS market and just how interested you would be in continuing to kind of add at these spreads, kind of given the cross-currents that you mentioned and just overall your view on risk-reward. Hey, Doug. Sure. As you alluded to from my comments, the administration has made it pretty clear that they want to do what they can to try to tighten spreads in this environment and potentially, as well, reduce mortgage rates. So we have become a little more defensive this quarter as a result of that and just the general movement in spreads. If you look at where spreads are now historically, I think you can say that they are at. I think you could definitely say they're symmetric in terms of risks.
Hoping you could just talk about how you're thinking about leverage, Nick, given your comments around kind of the MBS market and just how interested you would be in continuing to kind of add at these spreads, kind of given the cross-currents that you mentioned and just overall your view on risk-reward.
Nick Letica: Hey, Doug. Sure. As you alluded to from my comments, the administration has made it pretty clear that they want to do what they can to try to tighten spreads in this environment and potentially, as well, reduce mortgage rates. So we have become a little more defensive this quarter as a result of that and just the general movement in spreads. If you look at where spreads are now historically, I think you can say that they are at. I think you could definitely say they're symmetric in terms of risks.
Speaker #6: Hey Doug sure the as you alluded to about my from my comments the you know the administration has made it pretty clear that they want to do what they can to try to tighten spreads in this environment and potentially as well reduce mortgage rates so you know we have become a little more defensive this quarter as a result of that and just the general movement in spreads if you look at where spreads are now historically I think you can say that they are you know at you know I think you definitely say they're symmetric you know in terms of risks you might even say they're asymmetric in terms of the amount of you know widening versus tightening in here you know that being said there is you know there are things that the administration can do that have been you know have been widely discussed for example raising the caps that the GSEs have on their portfolio which they can do without you know congressional input and other measures to continue to drive the mortgage spread tighter or just limit it from a risk perspective of widening.
Maggie Karr: You might even say they're asymmetric in terms of the amount of widening versus tightening in here. That being said, there are things that the administration can do that have been widely discussed, for example, raising the caps that the GSEs have on their portfolio, which they can do without congressional input, and other measures to continue to drive the mortgage spread tighter or just limit it from a risk perspective of widening. So it is very much of a dual-edged sword. We have decided, and our portfolio construction being what it is, we do like the paired construction overall, as you know, and it depends less on betting on which way spreads are going to go and more about just putting together a hedged portfolio that extracts the spread of the combined assets.
You might even say they're asymmetric in terms of the amount of widening versus tightening in here. That being said, there are things that the administration can do that have been widely discussed, for example, raising the caps that the GSEs have on their portfolio, which they can do without congressional input, and other measures to continue to drive the mortgage spread tighter or just limit it from a risk perspective of widening. So it is very much of a dual-edged sword. We have decided, and our portfolio construction being what it is, we do like the paired construction overall, as you know, and it depends less on betting on which way spreads are going to go and more about just putting together a hedged portfolio that extracts the spread of the combined assets.
Speaker #6: So, it is very much a dual-edged sword. You know, we have decided—and, you know, our portfolio construction being what it is—we do like the paired construction overall, as you know, and it depends less on betting on which way spreads are going to go and more about just putting together a hedged portfolio that extracts the spread of the combined assets.
Speaker #6: So that's what we're really focused on but you know we have reduced our leverage a little bit this quarter and as well as our mortgage
Maggie Karr: So that's what we're really focused on, but we have reduced our leverage a little bit this quarter as well as our mortgage risk. Appreciate it. Thank you. We'll go next to Bose George with KBW. Hey, guys. Good morning. Actually, what do you think are the chances of an LLPA guarantee fee reduction at the GSEs? And how is the agency market kind of viewing that possibility? Hey, Bose. I think there's a reasonable reduction. There'll be some reasonable chance that there will be some changes on the LLPA grid, and I think it's somewhat priced into the market but not entirely.
So that's what we're really focused on, but we have reduced our leverage a little bit this quarter as well as our mortgage risk.
Speaker #6: risk. Appreciate
Doug Harter: Appreciate it. Thank you.
Speaker #3: it thank
Speaker #3: it thank you. We'll go
Operator: We'll go next to Bose George with KBW.
Speaker #1: next to Bose George with
Speaker #1: KBW. Hey guys good morning.
Bose George: Hey, guys. Good morning. Actually, what do you think are the chances of an LLPA guarantee fee reduction at the GSEs? And how is the agency market kind of viewing that possibility?
Speaker #7: Actually, what do you think are the chances of an LLPA—you know, guaranteed fee reduction at the GSEs—and, you know, how is the agency market kind of viewing that?
Speaker #7: possibility? Hey Bose
Nick Letica: Hey, Bose. I think there's a reasonable reduction. There'll be some reasonable chance that there will be some changes on the LLPA grid, and I think it's somewhat priced into the market but not entirely.
Speaker #6: I think there's a reasonable reduction there'll be some reasonable chance that there will be some changes on the LLPA grid and I think it's somewhat priced into the market but not entirely.
Speaker #6: There just there are a lot of a lot of there's a lot of optionality I think now in terms of the policy actions that can be done and you know it's a lot for the market to digest so it's and hard consequently to fully understand whether just an LLPA change is being baked in or not but I think there has been some amount of discounting of
Speaker #6: There just there are a lot of a lot of there's a lot of optionality I think now in terms of the policy actions that can be done and you know it's a lot for the market to digest so it's and hard consequently to fully understand whether just an LLPA change is being baked in or not but I think there has been some amount of discounting of that.
Maggie Karr: There's a lot of optionality, I think, now in terms of the policy actions that could be done, and it's a lot for the market to digest, and hard, consequently, to fully understand whether just an LLPA change is being baked in or not. But I think there has been some amount of discounting of that. Okay. Great. And then actually, in terms of the MSR market, have you seen any changes in sort of bank interest or activity, just given it looks like the capital rules there might make it a little more favorable for them to hold onto MSRs? I can't say that we've seen anything notable about that. Overall, all I can say is that the interest in the MSR market continues to be rock solid and strong.
There's a lot of optionality, I think, now in terms of the policy actions that could be done, and it's a lot for the market to digest, and hard, consequently, to fully understand whether just an LLPA change is being baked in or not. But I think there has been some amount of discounting of that.
Bose George: Okay. Great. And then actually, in terms of the MSR market, have you seen any changes in sort of bank interest or activity, just given it looks like the capital rules there might make it a little more favorable for them to hold onto MSRs?
Speaker #7: Okay, great. And then actually, in terms of the MSR market, have you seen any changes in sort of bank interest or activity, just given, you know, it looks like the capital rules there, you know, might make it a little more favorable for them to hold on to?
Speaker #7: MSRs? I can't say that we've seen.
Nick Letica: I can't say that we've seen anything notable about that. Overall, all I can say is that the interest in the MSR market continues to be rock solid and strong.
Speaker #6: Anything notable about that? All overall, all I can say is that the interest in the MSR market continues to be rock solid and strong. So, you know, from our perspective, we haven't seen anything particularly new that we, you know, we have not seen in the past, you know, year or—
Maggie Karr: So from our perspective, we haven't seen anything particularly new that we have not seen in the past year or two. Okay. Great. Thanks. We'll go next to Trevor Cranston with Citizens JMP. Hey. Thanks. A question on the prospective return outlook. Could you maybe give us an update on kind of where you would see those levels today subsequent to the additional spread tightening that we've seen in January, and maybe comment on if there's any kind of near-term read-through from kind of where you're seeing prospective returns to sort of how you're thinking about the appropriate dividend level in the near term? Thanks. I'll talk about the hey, Trevor. Thank you for the question. I will talk about your first part, and I'll let William discuss the dividend part of it. Yeah.
So from our perspective, we haven't seen anything particularly new that we have not seen in the past year or two.
Speaker #6: two. Okay great
Speaker #6: two. Okay great
Bose George: Okay. Great. Thanks.
Operator: We'll go next to Trevor Cranston with Citizens JMP.
Speaker #1: We'll go next to Trevor Cranston, thanks—with Citizens.
Speaker #1: JMP. Hey
Trevor Cranston: Hey. Thanks. A question on the prospective return outlook. Could you maybe give us an update on kind of where you would see those levels today subsequent to the additional spread tightening that we've seen in January, and maybe comment on if there's any kind of near-term read-through from kind of where you're seeing prospective returns to sort of how you're thinking about the appropriate dividend level in the near term? Thanks.
Speaker #8: thanks. The question on the perspective return outlook could you maybe give us an update on kind of where you would see those levels you know today subsequent to the additional spread tightening that we've seen in January and maybe comment on if there's any kind of near-term read-through from kind of where you're seeing prospective returns to the sort of how you're thinking about the appropriate dividend level in the near term.
Speaker #8: Thanks. I'll talk about the hay.
Nick Letica: I'll talk about the hey, Trevor. Thank you for the question. I will talk about your first part, and I'll let William discuss the dividend part of it. Yeah.
Speaker #6: Trevor thank you for the question I will talk about your first part and I'll let William discuss the dividend part of it. The yeah so spreads are tighter since we published this at the end of December so you know it would be reasonable to expect that you know our dividend levels would be in a little you know marginally from where they are they were back then on the 31st of December you know we see spreads overall as being on our whole portfolio of being in maybe about five basis points or so so that you know that we'll have a an effective lowering or a dividend marginally.
Maggie Karr: So spreads are tighter since we published this at the end of December, so it would be reasonable to expect that our dividend levels would be in a little marginally from where they were back then on 31 December. We see spreads overall as being, on our whole portfolio, of being in maybe about five basis points or so. So that will have an effect of lowering our dividend marginally. Good morning, Trevor. On the dividend, obviously, we'll go through the normal routine of deciding that later in the quarter together with the board. I will say still young in the quarter, so it's too early to say what the trend will be on the dividend. And sorry, I realize I just misspoke at the end of my I said lower the dividend. That's not what I meant to say. Lower the return potential marginally. Yeah.
So spreads are tighter since we published this at the end of December, so it would be reasonable to expect that our dividend levels would be in a little marginally from where they were back then on 31 December. We see spreads overall as being, on our whole portfolio, of being in maybe about five basis points or so. So that will have an effect of lowering our dividend marginally.
William Dellal: Good morning, Trevor. On the dividend, obviously, we'll go through the normal routine of deciding that later in the quarter together with the board. I will say still young in the quarter, so it's too early to say what the trend will be on the dividend.
Speaker #4: Hi, good morning, Trevor. On the dividend, obviously we'll go through the normal routine of deciding that later in the quarter together with the Board. I will say it's still young in the quarter, so it's too early to say what the trend will be on the dividend.
Nick Letica: And sorry, I realize I just misspoke at the end of my I said lower the dividend. That's not what I meant to say. Lower the return potential marginally.
Speaker #6: And sorry, I realized I just misspoke at the end. I said 'lower the dividend'—that's not what I meant to say. I meant 'lower the return potential marginally.'
Trevor Cranston: Yeah.
Speaker #8: Yeah I assumed but thank you for the clarification. And then I guess the second question you know since the news came out about the GSE buying you know it seems to have had you know kind of a varied impact on the various coupons can you say if you guys have had any kind of material changes with your coupon exposures so far in January and sort of how you're thinking about the coupon stack in light of the initial announcement and the potential for kind of additional announcements aimed at targeting mortgage rates?
Maggie Karr: I assumed, but thank you for the clarification. And then I guess the second question, since the news came out about the GSE buying, it seems to have had kind of a varied impact on the various coupons. Can you say if you guys have had any kind of material changes with your coupon exposures so far in January and sort of how you're thinking about the coupon stack in light of the initial announcement and the potential for kind of additional announcements aimed at targeting mortgage rates? Thanks. We haven't changed it materially. We have lowered our mortgage exposure overall to some degree. I think there are two effects that are going on. I think the GSEs, if I were implementing this and you wanted the effect of lowering the mortgage rate, lowering current coupon spreads, you would buy current coupons.
I assumed, but thank you for the clarification. And then I guess the second question, since the news came out about the GSE buying, it seems to have had kind of a varied impact on the various coupons. Can you say if you guys have had any kind of material changes with your coupon exposures so far in January and sort of how you're thinking about the coupon stack in light of the initial announcement and the potential for kind of additional announcements aimed at targeting mortgage rates? Thanks.
Speaker #8: Thanks.
Nick Letica: We haven't changed it materially. We have lowered our mortgage exposure overall to some degree. I think there are two effects that are going on. I think the GSEs, if I were implementing this and you wanted the effect of lowering the mortgage rate, lowering current coupon spreads, you would buy current coupons.
Speaker #3: We haven't changed it
Speaker #3: materially we have lowered our mortgage exposure overall to some degree I think there are two effects that are going on I think the GSEs if you know if I were implementing this and you wanted the effect of lowering the mortgage rate lowering current coupon spreads you would buy current coupons so I think that there is a natural that's the site where I would imagine that the GSE buying is focused you know commensurate with that I think we've seen a fair amount of down in coupon trades coming out of you know various entities including money managers that haven't you know materially lowered their allocation yet to mortgages but do seem to have gone down in coupons so thus far on the year we've seen the biggest positive effect on the lower coupons followed by current coupons and then the higher coupons have actually widened a little bit we've seen you know quite a bit of expansion of the coupon of the sorry contraction of the coupon stack as you go up you know some of the higher coupons are actually now wider you know on the year.
Maggie Karr: So I think that there is a natural, that's where I would imagine that the GSE buying is focused. Commensurate with that, I think we've seen a fair amount of down in coupon trades coming out of various entities, including money managers, that haven't materially lowered their allocation yet to mortgages but do seem to have gone down in coupons. So thus far on the year, we've seen the biggest positive effect on the lower coupons followed by current coupons. And then the higher coupons have actually widened a little bit. We've seen quite a bit of expansion of the coupon, sorry, contraction of the coupon stack as you go up. Some of the higher coupons are actually now wider on the year. Okay. Appreciate the comments. Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Harsh Hemnani with Green Street. Thank you.
So I think that there is a natural, that's where I would imagine that the GSE buying is focused. Commensurate with that, I think we've seen a fair amount of down in coupon trades coming out of various entities, including money managers, that haven't materially lowered their allocation yet to mortgages but do seem to have gone down in coupons. So thus far on the year, we've seen the biggest positive effect on the lower coupons followed by current coupons. And then the higher coupons have actually widened a little bit. We've seen quite a bit of expansion of the coupon, sorry, contraction of the coupon stack as you go up. Some of the higher coupons are actually now wider on the year.
Trevor Cranston: Okay. Appreciate the comments. Thank you.
Speaker #8: Okay appreciate the comments thank
Speaker #8: you. Our
Operator: Our next question comes from the line of Harsh Hemnani with Green Street.
Speaker #1: next question comes from the line of Harsh and Nanny with Green
Speaker #1: Street.
Harsh Hemnani: Thank you.
Speaker #7: Thank
Speaker #7: you. So you know we've obviously discussed the GSE buying and its impact on spreads but one of the other things that's justifying spreads today is how low rate volatility is maybe there's a few events upcoming on the calendar particularly with you know a new federal reserve in the middle of this year you know how would you expect any I guess uncertainty or changes in policy on that front to first off impact rate volatility and then also funding markets for agency
Maggie Karr: So we've obviously discussed the GSE buying and its impact on spreads, but one of the other things that's justifying spreads today is how low rate volatility is. Maybe there's a few events upcoming on the calendar, particularly with a new Federal Reserve in the middle of this year. How would you expect any, I guess, uncertainty or changes in policy on that front to, first off, impact rate volatility and then also funding markets for agency MBS? Hey, Harsh. Very good question. I can't say I really have a firm answer. I mean, volatility has drifted back to being on the historically low side. We have had periods where it's been lower than it is right now.
So we've obviously discussed the GSE buying and its impact on spreads, but one of the other things that's justifying spreads today is how low rate volatility is. Maybe there's a few events upcoming on the calendar, particularly with a new Federal Reserve in the middle of this year. How would you expect any, I guess, uncertainty or changes in policy on that front to, first off, impact rate volatility and then also funding markets for agency MBS?
Speaker #7: MBS? Hey Harsh very good
Nick Letica: Hey, Harsh. Very good question. I can't say I really have a firm answer. I mean, volatility has drifted back to being on the historically low side. We have had periods where it's been lower than it is right now.
Speaker #3: question I can't say I really have a firm answer I mean volatility is drifted back to being you know historically low side that we have had periods where it's been lower than it is right now as you mentioned we have a you know new nominee for the Fed chair and you know there it'll you know take a little bit of time to fully assess what he wants to do at the Fed and also we'll take him some time likely to develop you know the consensus to make that happen so I mean I would expect that we might see a mild amount of increase in volatility as a result of that you know and you know and we're still in an environment where from a you know macro perspective the economy seems to be you know humming along but inflation is still running a little hotter than I think the Fed would like and you know there it's not clear where those paths are going to are going to settle out here so it would make sense to that volatility would pick up a little bit and you know that's a little bit of our overall thesis of being a little more defensive here on mortgage spreads that you know vol is kind of drifted historically low in there there could be some things that kick it off it's always hard to say ahead of time what's going to what's going to be the catalyst to make that happen but it's reasonable to think that we could be in for a little bit of a higher level of volatility.
Maggie Karr: As you mentioned, we have a new nominee for the Fed chair, and it'll take a little bit of time to fully assess what he wants to do at the Fed, and also will take him some time likely to develop the consensus to make that happen. So I mean, I would expect that we might see a mild amount of increase in volatility as a result of that. And we're still in an environment where, from a macro perspective, the economy seems to be humming along, but inflation is still running a little hotter than I think the Fed would like, and it's not clear where those paths are going to settle out here.
As you mentioned, we have a new nominee for the Fed chair, and it'll take a little bit of time to fully assess what he wants to do at the Fed, and also will take him some time likely to develop the consensus to make that happen. So I mean, I would expect that we might see a mild amount of increase in volatility as a result of that. And we're still in an environment where, from a macro perspective, the economy seems to be humming along, but inflation is still running a little hotter than I think the Fed would like, and it's not clear where those paths are going to settle out here.
Maggie Karr: So it would make sense that volatility would pick up a little bit, and that's a little bit of our overall thesis of being a little more defensive here, our mortgage spreads, that vol has kind of drifted historically low, and there could be some things that kick it off. It's always hard to say ahead of time what's going to be the catalyst to make that happen, but it's reasonable to think that we could be in for a little bit of a higher level of volatility. What was the second part of your question? I'm sorry. Funding markets. Any impacts on agency funding markets? We haven't really seen much of an impact on funding markets.
So it would make sense that volatility would pick up a little bit, and that's a little bit of our overall thesis of being a little more defensive here, our mortgage spreads, that vol has kind of drifted historically low, and there could be some things that kick it off. It's always hard to say ahead of time what's going to be the catalyst to make that happen, but it's reasonable to think that we could be in for a little bit of a higher level of volatility. What was the second part of your question? I'm sorry.
Speaker #3: It was the second part of your question I'm
Speaker #3: sorry. Oh funding
Harsh Hemnani: Funding markets. Any impacts on agency funding markets?
Speaker #7: markets any impacts on agency funding markets?
Nick Letica: We haven't really seen much of an impact on funding markets.
Speaker #3: We haven't really seen much of an impact on funding markets. I mean, there's been a few people who have postulated that that could be one of the things that the administration does, or the Fed does, to try to lower funding rates in the, you know, for mortgages and other spread assets—to drive that tighter. That's possible. But, you know, funding markets have been stable. We don't really see any disturbance on the horizon on that.
Maggie Karr: I mean, there's been a few people who have postulated that that could be one of the things that the administration does or the Fed does to try to lower funding rates for mortgages and other spread assets to drive that tighter. That's possible, but funding markets have been stable. We don't really see any disturbance on the horizon on that front. Got it. Thank you. And then maybe on the hedge portfolio front, it feels like you moved a little bit heavier into the shorter-duration hedges. Any thoughts on what's driving that and how that could evolve going forward? No. I mean, I would say that we've continued to have a little bit of a curve steepening bias in the portfolio. It has not been big. I think there are still reasons to believe that the curve could steepen further here.
I mean, there's been a few people who have postulated that that could be one of the things that the administration does or the Fed does to try to lower funding rates for mortgages and other spread assets to drive that tighter. That's possible, but funding markets have been stable. We don't really see any disturbance on the horizon on that front.
Speaker #3: Front. Got it, thank you. And then—
Harsh Hemnani: Got it. Thank you. And then maybe on the hedge portfolio front, it feels like you moved a little bit heavier into the shorter-duration hedges. Any thoughts on what's driving that and how that could evolve going forward?
Speaker #7: maybe on the hedge portfolio front it feels like you moved a little bit heavier into the shorter duration hedges any thoughts on what's driving that and how that could evolve going forward?
Nick Letica: No. I mean, I would say that we've continued to have a little bit of a curve steepening bias in the portfolio. It has not been big. I think there are still reasons to believe that the curve could steepen further here.
Speaker #3: No I mean I would say that we you know we've continued to have a little bit of a curve steepening bias in the portfolio it has not been big I think there's still reasons to believe that the curve could steepen further here so no I don't you know we can we can talk about it more specifically you know offline but I don't see us as having shifted our hedges very much in that way.
Maggie Karr: So no, I don't. We can talk about it more specifically offline, but I don't see us as having shifted our hedges very much in that way. Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Eric Hagan with BTIG. Hey. Thanks. Good morning. Do you guys have a rough breakdown of the channel mix for your current MSR portfolio? What percentage were originated in the broker channel versus the retail channel? And how do you guys feel like the origination channel impacts the prepayment behavior of your portfolio? Good morning, Eric. Thanks for the question. I don't have those at my fingertips here. We've been, over the years, active buyers both across flow and bulk channels, and they do have different prepayment characteristics, and we attribute different prices to those loans and those characteristics.
So no, I don't. We can talk about it more specifically offline, but I don't see us as having shifted our hedges very much in that way.
Harsh Hemnani: Thank you.
Speaker #7: Thank
Speaker #7: you.
Operator: Our next question comes from the line of Eric Hagan with BTIG.
Speaker #1: Our next question comes from the line.
Speaker #1: of Eric Hagan with
Speaker #1: BTIG. Hey thanks good
Eric Hagen: Hey. Thanks. Good morning. Do you guys have a rough breakdown of the channel mix for your current MSR portfolio? What percentage were originated in the broker channel versus the retail channel? And how do you guys feel like the origination channel impacts the prepayment behavior of your portfolio?
Speaker #8: morning do you guys have a rough breakdown of the channel mix for your current MSR portfolio like what percentage were originated in the broker channel versus the retail channel and how do you guys feel like the origination channel impacts the prepayment behavior of your portfolio?
Speaker #8: morning do you guys have a rough breakdown of the channel mix for your current MSR portfolio like what percentage were originated in the broker channel versus the retail channel and how do you guys feel like the origination channel impacts the prepayment behavior of your
Bill Greenberg: Good morning, Eric. Thanks for the question. I don't have those at my fingertips here. We've been, over the years, active buyers both across flow and bulk channels, and they do have different prepayment characteristics, and we attribute different prices to those loans and those characteristics.
Speaker #4: Good morning Eric thanks thanks for the question I don't have those at my fingertips here you know we've been you know over the years active buyers both across flow and bulk channels and you know they do have different prepayment characteristics and we attribute different prices to those loans and those characteristics and so you know whatever differences there are in prepayment behaviors are generally reflected in the prices at which we acquire them at.
Maggie Karr: And so whatever differences there are in prepayment behaviors are generally reflected in the prices at which we acquire them at, right? And so all of that is incorporated into the way that we manage the portfolio. But I don't have the specific numbers of what's broker versus retail versus correspondent that I have handy with me right now. Gotcha. Okay. Some recent commentary from other originators noted that the GSE cash window has been more active as a delivery execution channel for community banks and small retail originators. Are you guys seeing the same thing, and how do you guys feel like the cash window impacts volatility and MSR valuations in the market? I think that the MSR market is reasonably diversified in terms of the products that are coming to market and so forth, and those are affected in the prices. We continue to see robust MSR demand.
And so whatever differences there are in prepayment behaviors are generally reflected in the prices at which we acquire them at, right? And so all of that is incorporated into the way that we manage the portfolio. But I don't have the specific numbers of what's broker versus retail versus correspondent that I have handy with me right now.
Speaker #4: Right and so all of that is incorporated into the way that we manage the portfolio but I don't have the specific numbers of what's broker versus retail versus correspondent handy with me right
Speaker #4: now. Got
Eric Hagen: Gotcha. Okay. Some recent commentary from other originators noted that the GSE cash window has been more active as a delivery execution channel for community banks and small retail originators. Are you guys seeing the same thing, and how do you guys feel like the cash window impacts volatility and MSR valuations in the market?
Speaker #8: You okay, you know, some recent commentary from other originators noted that the GSE cash window has been more active as a delivery execution channel for community banks and small retail originators. Are you guys seeing the same thing, and how do you guys feel like the cash window impacts volatility in MSR valuations in the—
Speaker #8: market? You
Bill Greenberg: I think that the MSR market is reasonably diversified in terms of the products that are coming to market and so forth, and those are affected in the prices. We continue to see robust MSR demand.
Speaker #4: know I think that the MSR market is reasonably diversified in terms of the products that are coming to market and so forth and those are affected in the prices we continue to see you know robust MSR demand volumes in the MSR market are lower than what they have been in recent years we have a chart in the deck on that and so you know I think this is just you know a normal MSR environment as we're changing regimes to lower supply than what we've seen in the
Maggie Karr: Volumes in the MSR market are lower than what they have been in recent years. We have a chart in the deck on that. And so I think this is just a normal MSR environment as we're changing regimes to lower supply than what we've seen in the past. Got it. But does the GSEs being active with the cash window, is that a reflection of MSR valuations in any way? No, I don't think so. Okay. All right. Thank you, guys, for the comments. Thanks, Eric. This concludes today's question-and-answer session. I would like to turn the call over to Bill for any additional or closing comments. I'd just like to thank you all for joining our call today.
Volumes in the MSR market are lower than what they have been in recent years. We have a chart in the deck on that. And so I think this is just a normal MSR environment as we're changing regimes to lower supply than what we've seen in the past.
Speaker #4: past. Got it but does the GSEs
Eric Hagen: Got it. But does the GSEs being active with the cash window, is that a reflection of MSR valuations in any way?
Speaker #8: being active with the cash window is that a reflection of MSR valuations in any
Speaker #8: way? No I don't think
Bill Greenberg: No, I don't think so.
Eric Hagen: Okay. All right. Thank you, guys, for the comments.
Speaker #8: Okay all so. right thank you guys for the comments.
Bill Greenberg: Thanks, Eric.
Speaker #4: Thanks Eric.
Operator: This concludes today's question-and-answer session. I would like to turn the call over to Bill for any additional or closing comments.
Speaker #1: This concludes today's question-and-answer session. I would like to turn the call over to Bill for any additional or closing comments.
Bill Greenberg: I'd just like to thank you all for joining our call today.
Speaker #4: I'd just like to thank you all for joining our call today. As we said in the earlier prepared remarks, you know, we view the merger with UWM to be extremely exciting, and we expect that it's going to deliver meaningful upside for our shareholders.
Maggie Karr: As we said in the earlier prepared remarks, we view the merger with UWM to be extremely exciting, and we expect that it's going to deliver meaningful upside for our shareholders. Have a great day, and we look forward to speaking with you all again soon. This concludes today's call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.
As we said in the earlier prepared remarks, we view the merger with UWM to be extremely exciting, and we expect that it's going to deliver meaningful upside for our shareholders. Have a great day, and we look forward to speaking with you all again soon.
Speaker #4: Have a great day, and we look forward to speaking with you all again.
Speaker #4: Soon. This concludes today's call. Thank you for—
Operator: This concludes today's call. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect.
